i was checking out the ads on audiogon the other day. they have some nice speakers. i never paid attention to the fact that there is so many brands of speakers that i never heard of. and the prices for most of them is out of my reach. especialy for somthing that is more than a few years old. but what rally gets me is that some of these people want so much moola but, they don't even bother to clean them off. they are all scracthed up, and they say exellent condition. and then they have the nerve to say to send them the cash up front. and they only want a personal check or money order. i was going to buy a set from one guy and he was insulted that i should suggest he take paypal, because i didn't know him. and did not exactly trust him not to take my money and run.
I've sold a number of things on Audiogon but never bought. Everything I've sold has been as advertised. It's one of the safest places to buy, though caution is still advised.
I have bought and sold many things on Audiogon and have been very happy with my transactions. I refuse to deal with people that do not take paypal and that insist on adding a 3% fee for paypal. You can find good deals on audiogon but you have to be willing to look and wait. The thing I like about audiogon over ebay is that most listings are classified listings so you can negotiate most prices down just like anything else in a classified listing on a newspaper. Many of the sellers on audiogon are audio enthusiasts and do sympathize with people when it comes to replacing gear or buying new gear, atleast in my experience.
sorry, i have a vision problem so i use caps a lot. i don't much care for decorum. i am communicating by typing out letters to make words, thats all. small or big who cares, and as far as being tidy.Is thIS Be TT e r ?
I've bought and sold on Audiogon and never had a bad experience. I usually only deal with people who use Paypal, just because it's convenient for me. I won't pay Paypal fees, unless the seller offers to meet me halfway and pay half. As I seller I eat the fees as part of the cost of doing business.
Using all caps in a forum, or even an email for that matter, is considered screaming, and is not good online etiquette. If you can't be respectful enough to follow the guidelines you won't last here very long.
Art, according to Paypal's terms of service it is against their policies to charge a 3% fee unless you accept payment through a credit card, or something to that effect. Of course a great deal will not stop me but the fee will annoy me if they insist on it. I have always ended up negotiating a final price to include the item, shipping and whatever fees they may incur.
hey, im sorry if my using caps offends you. i can assure you i am not screaming. i have trouble with my vision,and using caps is easy for me to see. if that bothers you, than to bad MR. MITCHELL. as long as i don't offend anyone (like you just did!) i can use any method i see fit!!
I don't think anyone was disrespecting your disability, I know I wasn't. I think it was your aggressive, confrontational attitude that turned a few off.
Anyone is welcome here, and there's a lot of very knowledgeable people on this forum. All we ask is that everyone is treated with the same level of respect.
I've purchased two items from Audiogon. One from a dealer, the other from an individual. Happy with both purchases, the individual went thru PayPal, which allegedly provides protection for both parties. Tried to negotiate one deal, he was unwilling to negotiate at all. His loss.
SM ... I can appreciate your disability. Me .. I just increase the view size. Important thing is .. ears still work ...
There are good people and bad people. I won't contemplate a shady looking ad, no matter how good a deal it seems to be. If they don't take Paypal, I don't have faith in it. No way I'm sending a check or money order.
I've bought and sold. Had one somewhat negative experience, but the seller fixed it.
I hate the 'Paypal add 3%' BS. Audiogon charges a few bucks an ad, and next thing you know they'll say '+ $4 Audiogon listing fee.' I've always charged a price that included Paypal and shipping in the Con US. Its been factored into my asking price. Another thing I've always done is make my price firm.
I've always sold within 24 hours. I've only sold a handful of things, but I like to think I did something right. The only way I'd pay cash or money order is a local pick up.
i don't like the fact that a lot of sellers don't include photos of their items. i like to window shop ans when i see a ad for speakers or whatever. and i don't recognise the brand, i would like to see what it looks like.
If you factor in Paypal in the asking price and I say plus Paypal the the customer pays it just the same. Never been an issue to any of my buyers and I sell very fast. Paypal is for the benefit of both the buyer and seller...share the pain. I won't worry about it one way or the other. I also ask the buyer to pay shipping.
My prices are very fair and on the low end relative to value. For instance I'm about to sell my Apollo. I'll put it up for $499 + shipping & paypal. When I looked yesterday that would put me $50 below the next lowest. It's fair and if it's the semantics that bother someone so much that they would pay more money from someone who doesn't say + Paypal...too bad for them, their loss.
I assume that the buyer will do the math...and they do.
I would certainly consider changing that, however you guys are the only folks I've ever seen complaining about it and I've never even thought about it when looking at an ad.
Art, you don't go charging people different rates between credit cards and cash in a brick and mortar so why should that concept be any different in an online transaction using a third party backed money transfer service? Its not the 3% that bothers me. Its the idea that the seller is portraying themselves as such a cheap skate that he/she doesn't want to pay the costs associate with using a service and get exactly the value of the sale as if they were paid in cash. I believe that is wrong. I also hate it when someone decides to try and profit off of shipping. Like you Art, I always deal in final prices.
As Christopher Lee stated, if you have a price point and patience you can do well on Audiogon.
Me, if I see something at a decent price I can fairly much factor in the fees and if they make a difference I offer less, but most of the time if I find a listing for something I want, it is usually at day 1 of the listing and very recently posted. The only way to increase my odds of getting it is for me to offer full asking price.
For example that is how I got my Origin Live Ultra with upgraded motor and with upgraded power supply for my LP12. If I bought it new I would have been out 3 times the price. I acted quickly and got a great deal and the seller was a happy camper.
The real key is to always be watching so you can be the first to the party when the item you want at a price point that is acceptable is listed, like Art's Apollo.
Review the sellers feedback for any red flags
You can also adjust the size of the type you post with the font controls where you type your post.
As a buyer all I care about is the final price. If the seller says +3% Paypal then I simply add 3% to the price, along with the required shipping. I'll probably bite if the total cost is fair. If someone doesn't charge 3% but their item works out to be a less competitive price, then you can bet it all that I'll opt to pay the 3% and get the overall better value (all things, like item condition, being equal).
If I sell I don't ask for 3%, since it just makes my item less competitive. As a buyer it doesn't bother me, but as a seller I see the upside of not doing this and the fact that there is no downside. I would rather factor it into my asking price if I'm that concerned. For a regular retail establishment like Best Buy for example, you can be sure they've factored it into their prices somehow.
For shipping I use an online quote from Canada Post or Purolator and add nothing to it. I may however, factor in the cost of boxes and packing materials if I have to buy them. Buyer pays for shipping and handling, in my eyes handling is the packing materials.
I've done lots of buying and selling on ebay. On Audiogon I've bought a few things (mostly from dealers), and tried selling one cable but it didn't sell after one month and I opted to keep it. I think it's tougher for Canadians to sell to the U.S. Many U.S. buyers won't bite due to added costs from importing. Cables are probably a tougher sell too.
4$ and 3% ? Price the thing and sell it for what you want, don't add some shite fee that is your problem, deal with that yourself. Add 20$ or whatever to your dream price and list it.
You want to list it? Pay the fee. I didn't call you out of the blue, you asked the public at large. Pay for the ability to do so. Bank transfer costs 1$, is anonymous and secure.
How about you do it your way and I'll do it mine. I'll be honest and upfront about passing on the cost, and you, not so much. Either way we'll both sell our gear at the same speed. I'm ok with that.
I've done a little business on A-gon. Sold an amp/ local and did the exchange for cash and met the guy 1/2 way. He left me a good review.
Bought an amp on A-gon, which gave me the willies but it all worked out and I've had the amp for a couple years.
Tried to sell my old, MG-1 panels without luck but later actually sold them on Craig's list. Be Careful there!
I tried selling my Rotel RB1070. Easy, right? Couldn't get a serious offer out of A-gon. Craig's was even worse. Guy sent me an offer for 20% over what I asked. He'd send me a Postal Money Order and a shipper....but he needed the amp right away for his g-friend. When I put the telephone # in google, my screen just about blew up. Bigtime scam #. Warnings about phony Money Order and how stuff disappears and you are left holding the bag. If I'd have had any sense, I'd of gone for the offer than bagged the stuff and gone to the local Post Office. I think this may constitute Mail Fraud which is a Federal Offense and not taken lightly by postal inspectors. OH, and the offer was from the East Coast end, nowhere near where I had placed the ad!
That sounds like one of the Nigerian scams from a while back. Guy buys your car on EBay, and sends and extra $5k for you to give to his friend or something similar. Your car is shipped (at your cost) before anyone can tell the money order is fake.
Posting a fixed price, including shipping is easy and good to read. Shipping is generally the same for the CONUS, as it is within Canada. Crossing the border is a PITA. I list all in, shipping included and get more calls than making Jethro do the math on an abacus, or taking off his footwear to count past 10.
If 10$ is gonna kill a 500 deal, then send a 6-pack in the box as well. I have done this, with fab results! Suddenly I am not online seller, but a real good guy(true) and small issues are easily solved, as opposed to the convoluted and hypocritical dispute resolution solution offered by disinterested parties.
This is all much ado about nothing, IMO. Having a fee added into the price is something a buyer can't even tell. They can only tell if it's added on extra. It's like selling something for $1,000 but charging $1,030 to cover the fee. There will probably be people asking $1,025 or $1,075, $1,080, $1,100, etc. for the same item. How can you tell which one includes a fee and which one is just the price someone wants and they will swallow the fee? The answer is that you can't. But you can bet that part of what you are paying is going to cover the fee, whether the seller says that or not.
You can calculate everything for me or tell me to do it. I passed grade 4 math, so I'm alright! I'll figure it out myself if need be. I just want a seller that is being up front about all the costs and most importantly, about the product itself!
What would p!ss me off is if I got a product that's 8/10 that I was told was 10/10. Not if I had to punch a few numbers into my calculator, or if I found out that a 3% charge was built into the final price, which I agreed to and thought was a fair total outlay for the product I wanted anyways. I don't really care if the seller takes my money and sends part of it to Paypal or whether he's got a separate account for that which he funds from his paper route, and so he takes my money and instead of sending it to Paypal buys some new underwear! I couldn't care less.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that this is what you guys are debating. None of that matters to me, just tell me what my total cost is (whether I add the parts up or not), I'll decide if it's fair, and don't try to pull anything!
The only thing I will say is that if you charge 3% extra that you run the risk of losing a sale because a buyer won't want to pay what they think they shouldn't pay for. That's a seller problem though.
Am I giving sellers too much credit? Do some of them actually not figure in the Paypal fee, and therefore actually do cover it themselves?
Well, Art and other listers want YOU to cover the cost of making a sale. How do you feel about that? Do you think the responsibiity for taking the time to list an item should be passed on to a buyer? Does Home Depot charge you shipping and 3% to cover ads in the paper when you buy a bundle of lumber?
Dan, we, or atleast I, are argueing about something that at the end of the day doesn't really mean that much in terms of the item or the final price.; the 3% will be taken out by paypal regardless. It is the fact that some sellers will have say a $1000 asking price and expects to get $1000 in their bank account, not $970. Obviously bargaining makes the whole thing moot if you are bargaining a final price and not a selling price. Some sellers will bargain a selling price then insist on the buyer adding 3% to that price so they get exatcly what they asked for. I am not saying that all people that state the 3% do it, but an overwhelming number do and it gets annoying rather fast. I guess another way to put how it bothers me is charging someone for the amount of gas you used up to drive a package to the post office, local shipping place, etc. If at the end all parties are satisfied with the sale, it doesn't really matter.
Some sellers will bargain a selling price then insist on the buyer adding 3% to that price so they get exatcly what they asked for. I am not saying that all people that state the 3% do it, but an overwhelming number do and it gets annoying rather fast.
If they are up front about it in their ad then it doesn't bother me. If they don't mention it and respond, and they then say "oh yeah, plus there is this separate charge.", that's not cool.
If someone sells a product and then wants $1,000 in their bank account they can accomplish this in two ways, both are okay with me:
1. state in the ad that Paypal is extra 2. charge $1,030 and state there is no Paypal charge; essentially the charge is included in the price
Either way the buyer has full information. I assume most sellers do one of these two things. The thing with used audio gear is that there is no clearly defined price that a product should sell for. You will have Rega Apollos for $650, $700, $800, etc. And they may all be in similar shape. So you cannot know whether a person who charges $1,000 is accepting of the fact that they will cover the Paypal fee, or if they actually feel that $970 is a fair return for their product. Most Audiogon ads I see don't even mention Paypal.
Nuck, Home Depot's costs are factored into their prices. If Visa raises their costs then you can bet it will work it's way down to the products that Home Depot sells. That is if they want to maintain their profit level, and I've never met a successful company that doesn't. I'd be shocked if Home Depot didn't fund their flyers from the money that you and everyone else pays them when you buy goods. Of course they do. Advertising and Visa fees are parts of the cost of making a sale, and they are passed on to the consumer.
That said, this is one reason why I've switched from Rogers and Bell for Internet and home phone to a much smaller company that doesn't waste money on stuff like sending out junk mail every two weeks to millions of different people, over and over and over and over again.
Nuck, I think you missed the point. You are charging the same fee I am, only without telling the buyer. Like I said, I'll do it my way and you do it yours.
I think Dan gets it.
Christopher, I agree that it isn't right to try to negotiate in a Paypal fee after the fact. That's why I'm upfront through the process.
It's also important to me as the seller to keep communication very open. I send tracking numbers, instructions as to how I achieved the best results from the product and after they have received it I send at least one followup email to see if there is anything in setup or any other questions the buyer may have. I give them my home email and phone number if they have any questions in the future.
Paypal is a service that fewer and fewer sellers are offering because they are getting burned by buyers. Trust me, I'm totally OK with a bank check.
I missed nothing, Art. Here is the price. The ferking gov't charges extra $$ on stuff everday, some people like seeing out the door price said and done. This attracts buyers. The yadda yadda, you pay for my ad bull is just that. You are demanding that I pay for your ad. I resent that.
"some people like seeing out the door price said and done."
And some don't.
"You are demanding that I pay for your ad. I resent that."
"Add 20$ or whatever to your dream price and list it."
You suggest charging the fee and not mentioning it...I'm not sure how that's more upfront. Perhaps in your world it is. In mine, it ain't.
Christopher...do some research and you'll see that more and more sellers are not taking Paypal and some cite having been burned as the reason. I haven't been burned buy a buyer in any way, ever.
This is getting typically "ecoustics" silly. Believe it or not I've made more than one sale by simply mentioning that I was selling here on ecoustics. No complaints...as a matter of fact I've never had a complaint and am still in contact with several buyers years later. I over pack and always pay for the maximum insurance (for which I don't charge). Buyers invariably write of their appreciation for the open communication and the care I take in preparing and packaging before I ship. The rest of this is silliness.
I didn't pick up a Naim Nait 2i because of the PayPal fee. I was offering his asking price, he to cover PP & shipping. Most everything on A'gon is, after all, used. Since that's the case, I see it all as negotiable. Bought the Cary from a dealer. It was a display / demo model. I asked him what it would take to get it to my door. He wanted to sell it, he made a bit of a compromise. We're both happy now.
Buyers not taking PayPal seem like buyers who want you to ship to their girlfriend in Nigeria. I don't need those buyers. PayPal saved my AS$ on my first eBay transaction when someone had a mock up email of a Paypal transaction that did not exactly match PayPal rules.
So yeah, PayPal can cause someone to be ripped off, the same someone who gives bank information to an IRS email.
As to negotiating, it all depends on how badly you want something. As I stated above, if I hit on something I have been waiting for I am all in, if it is something I was thinking about experitmenting with, then I will offer a negotiable price and see how it plays out.
Like Art I will do beyond whatever reasonable that I can to insure the buyers experience is outstanding as I do not want any negative feedback to diminish my ability to get a fair price for the gear I am selling.
Y'alls debate about rolling the extra charges into your price or listing them individually is silly IMO. Who cares who is right? You either sell your stuff doing it your way or you don't. Seems like you both do so what is the issue? Why can't both of you be right?
Hey, whatever happened to the OP or can I dial down the font?
"Y'alls debate about rolling the extra charges into your price or listing them individually is silly IMO. Who cares who is right? You either sell your stuff doing it your way or you don't. Seems like you both do so what is the issue? Why can't both of you be right?"
Which is exactly what I said more than once and couldn't agree more with you on. Each do it our own way and the product will likely sell just as fast. I feel that once communication with the buyer begins, your sincerity and honesty can be felt. That's where the sale is made. Thanks for commenting, Mike.
If I were a frequent seller, I'd practice 'bottom line price'. Figure the max shipping to say....the North Pole, than be willing to negotiate down. If I can drive the piece 'cross town, I can make a better deal. I think it may be better psychologically to skip the 3% and extra for shipping. Just figure it in from the git-go. KISS is the principle.
I think SM is P.O'd. He really was angry, said so in another thread than signed off.
Fortunately, all the gear that I sold in the last year was listed as demo in my home only, and meeting in person to try the stuff tops all. One chap wanted to barter heavily, so I asked him to leave, politely. He left with the piece, and lighter in the pocket by the list price.
But buying, I tend to do that unseen. Never paid a paypal yet.
Wait, David Mitchell did sell speakers for me on a paypal deal, does that count?
I think as a seller, you should be willing to eat the paypal fees. Like I mentioned, it's part of the cost of doing business. Roll it in the asking price if that's what you want, but I won't deal with people who advertise "3% extra for paypal", unless they're willing to negotiate. What's next? People gonna start charging you for the listing price for the ad on Agon too? Charging for the transaction fee?
"Roll it in the asking price if that's what you want"
"Never paid a paypal yet."
If one does as you ask then you paid the Paypal fee and weren't aware of it. Not sure how you win that way, especially if my altogether price is lower. A little math goes a long way.
As was stated earlier, this is going nowhere. Let's settle on doing it our own way and that no one is wrong.