What originally got me thinking of this was a conversation I had with Nuck about how the Sttafs are a bit too laid back/polite of a speaker for listening to these genres of music. Assume a source of a McIntosh integrated and CDP.
I've never heard McIntosh gear. Is it not laid back and polite as well? That is my impression but I could be wrong.
I listen to lots of hard rock and I've said it before but the speaker that I enjoyed most was the PMC TB2i. One day I will buy a pair, I am 99% positive. Either that or I'll go with a Tannoy dual concentric speaker, which I've also heard and generally they've sounded great.
I think my Monitor Audio RS5 speakers are great for rock, but the highs are so loud that they overwhelm the mids and lows and therefore obscure what's going on in those regions. Some people might be able to tame this, or perhaps they prefer it, but ultimately I think I prefer a speaker that measures relatively flat in the treble region. Rock albums often are bright, I don't need that emphasized even more.
I think a speaker should also convey speed with great dynamics and to me, along with the flatter treble measurements, this is the basis for a speaker that is great with rock. Supposedly Tannoy uses paper drivers because they are light and therefore have a faster sound. The Monitor Audio drivers are metal (aluminum I think), and they also sound very quick. PMC use a heavier driver I believe, but it still sounded phenomenal to me.
McIntosh is generally regarded as sounding laid-back, polite, or warm.
The MA RS line uses C-CAM drivers from what I recall Dan. Ceramic coated metal drivers? I'm using my RS6's right now on my 2-channel system (my McIntosh rig) and while I'm pretty happy with them, I miss the sublime pleasure of the Totems, even though they lacked the attack for the type of music I mainly listen to. Plus the imaging and soundstage of the Totems are pretty hard to beat.
I've read a lot of good things about PMC speakers. Have you spent a lot of time auditioning them?
Totem Forest...you like Totem in general but want more bite. I know that they are all voiced differently but they do share the values of Vince Bruzzese and have some family resemblance.
I auditioned the Forests extensively and really liked them Art. They're definitely a speaker I'd like to own some day. My favourite Totem speakers are the Mani's, but my baby Mac just didn't have the guts to drive them properly. Both my wife and I thought the Mani's sounded appreciably better than even the top of the line Winds.
You have to keep in mind what electronics you have, or change them out for the speaker you want. I can't imagine that you couldn't get all of the sound you want or need with your present amp...just have to have the right speakers in the mix.
Okay Dave, I know nothing of the Mac gear, but since you asked for great speakers for rock - Quad 22Ls. Great for rock, jazz, blues and classical. For the money (here in highpriceland) they are great value imo.
Okay, okay, I like my Quads, but as I've said previously I live in an audio desert here on the coast - 4 audio shops (specialist shops not counting the big box stores selling Yamaha, HK, Marantz and Klipsch & Jamos) and one just closed leaving 3. One has Nad, CA, Rega, MA, Boston and now some Kef, another has NAD, Denon, JBL and Boston and the other is Denon, CA, Energy and some leftover B&W's. There may a couple of other brands that escape me for now. There's more range in Brisbane, but that's an hour away through traffic that I try to avoid at all costs and besides just going into those stores for a listen is really out of the question unless you have the intent of buying and about a week to get to them all.
Digital music and gadgets are killing the hifi shops.
Yes Dave, but mine are the L's not the L2's. Small differences in tweeter, bracing and outrigger feet. The 2's are supposed to be an improvement, but the jury's still out on that according to what I've read. The specs are the same. Incorporated into the surround system are the 12L's and centre. The 12's are a great little speaker in their own right.
Being rear ported though, placement makes all the difference with these and though they don't really need gobs of power they seem to relish it.
I think I have a pretty good understanding of what it is you're looking for David. Check out PMC and Audio Physic.
APs and PMCs sound pretty similar in house sound. I think the APs sound a little fuller overall and are more 3D sounding. I'd compare model to model though.
I first heard Audio Physic with a Mac integrated. The combo sounded fantastic. I'm pretty sure PMC would sound very good too.
Nuck and Mike Wodek have had very good results with their Mac/Gallo combos. Definitely worth consideration IMO.
Lots of good suggestions here guys. I've heard good things about PMC speakers. There's quite a few for sale on Agon right now. Any particular model you'd recommend?
PMC is very consistant across their range. It really depends on your room size as to which would be best. Some of the PMC guys on the Bryston circle went down a model and had better results in their room.
Just as Mac is Mac, PMC is PMC.
The've somewhat recently upgraded their line (doesn't happen very often with them). The originals don't have anything after their name - ie TB2, the next gen were + (TB2+), and the current line is i (TB2i). All upgraded lines were reportedly substantial. There was also a substantial price increase as a result though.
I'd try their entry level floor stander.
There's a few Audio Physic Tempos for good prices too. I'd look into the Tempo 3i that's up for sale. They're the same drivers in my Yaras, just more of them and a floor stander. Fantastic speaker IMO.
I think the PMC's would surpass the Quads Dave, And I love those Audio Physics even though their time aligned designs are fairly meaningless. Both are much more expensive than my Quads here and would be on my list if I could afford a decent pair of new speakers.
Also, make sure you're researching the correct price with PMCs. A few guys were selling speakers that were a model or two old, and were asking the current model's price. A few listed the retail price as the current model's retail, not the previous one's.
Not that its a huge problem, but its a noteworthy one IMO.
David, I had the TB2i for a couple of days last year, lent to me by a local dealer. Powered by an Audiolab 8000S and the CD player and preamp in my Denon minisystem. The speakers outclassed the other components (expecially the CDP and preamp), nevertheless the sound was addictive.
Had the Quad 12L active for a bit too before selling it, it was a bit cool sounding but highly detailed and dynamic with smooth highs. I thought it did a really nice job on rock music.
PMC isn't cheap, that's for sure. The GB1i is their entry level floorstander, which costs $3,000 brand new. The cheapest bookshelf comes in at $2,000.
I doubt that Castle or Harbeth will do it for you, David. Not by the description you gave as to what you are looking for...perhaps the Gallo's are the ticket.
I'm thinking that too Art. The consensus here when I asked about the Castle speakers was not great, and the Harbeths, well, they're above my current level of disposable income.
I have to listen to a pair of Gallo's before I plunk money down on a pair of PMC's.
The prices quoted for Quad speakers at Planet of Sound always struck me as overpriced. The 12L2 retails for $1,200 in the States, 1.33x that at Planet. Maybe the posted prices are out of date. Just seems a little high to me, but I'm not sure how they compare to other local stores. It's not like Quad has lots of dealers in Ontario.
The only way to be totally sure is to take your kit into the dealer and see. Granted, that only tells part of the picture as it will interact differently with your room. But it lets you hear if the speakers mate well with the gear.
Is there less risk in buying a practically new pair from someone like lanemart on audiogon? I like supporting my local dealers, but the 12L2 often sells on A'gon for under $600. Add in shipping and taxes and it may hit $750Cdn.
If you like them then you keep a pair that you shelled out $750 for. If not then you sell them for what, maybe $400 at the very least? If you don't like them you are in the hole probably $200-300, vs no loss if you tried them locally first and determined they weren't right for you. On the flipside, if you do like them you've saved $1,000.
I kind of feel dirty for even suggesting you buy online, but the fact remains that the price is over half off (in U.S. dollar terms, and even greater than that in Cdn dollars). I don't know as much about the pricing on the 22l2, but from the one model on A'gon now it appears that it's about the same 50% off the U.S. retail price for a model that's rated 9/10.
I think I would tend to gamble with buying online in this case, in large part because there aren't many places that sell Quad in Ontario. If we were talking Monitor Audio for instance, there's no way I'd consider buying online as there are at least half a dozen stores that sell MA, and the discount online isn't as large. Buying online also is more problematic if you have a problem with the speakers and need them repaired - definitely a consideration.
Tough choice. However, if I was set on buying online I wouldn't waste PoS's time, unless there was something else I could buy there (music, cables, etc.) for their trouble. I guess one could argue the demo gives the store the chance to sell you on something else that you may buy now or in the future when you do another upgrade. Over time I've always gone back to those stores that have given me great service and were willing to even if I wasn't buying anything. Stores that gave me attitude, even when I expressed interest in buying (!), I will never set foot in again.
Using a dealer to audition stuff that you know you will never buy from them is hardly fair, but like you said, just the fact of them getting you into the store may turn you into a future customer down the road. You may see something in the shop that you don't have the means to buy at the present time, but you'll always keep it in the back of your mind and go back someday. I know that has happened to me with my local dealer. I bought a McIntosh from him!
Over the next two or three weeks I plan to try out a pair of Dynaudio DM 2/8 speakers. An 8 inch driver in a large cabinet. A lot of users have posted online that these are great speakers for rock music. Unlike perhaps many Dyn speakers they are also easy to drive (at least according to Dynaudio, who say even entry level electronics are fine). Dyn also makes a 10 inch version.
A larger bookshelf with a larger than normal driver has me intrigued. My dealer's Tannoy Prestige models sound amazing (and they should for the price). These are well over my budget, but I think they show what a large driver is capable of. Totally effortless sound. Rock can often sound compressed and/or congested on certain speakers, perhaps a larger driver can handle this better. Not to mention added bass weight, scale, and dynamics.
My Quad 12L2 are I feel excellent speakers, but I think they start to sound a bit thin and compressed on harder rocking songs (even on well recorded albums). Ideally this would be rectified, though I could easily continue living with them. At this point I'm just being picky. But I think it's worth exploring what a larger speaker can do, rather than just trying another typical 6.5 inch design, especially since I can part ways with the 12L2 and my sub (which I find myself not using) and get the 2/8 for about that price if I choose to switch. HiFi-Choice did a review of the 10 inch version and it's quite encouraging. Headroom, bass, resolving of complex musical passages, etc. TAS were very high on the 2/8 model, with similar praise.