How common are fuses in speakers? I ask because I just glitched looking at the back of my panels. Yep, I have 4 amp fuses on the mid/tweet side of my panels. What made me pause was the microscopic size of the wire. This is after going to no small trouble to ensure an amp with amps, good size wire with proper connections and stable power to the whole thing.
At the very least, the fuses are going away, but I was just curious if anyone, save perhaps pro stuff has fused drivers? It'll be easy to pull that panel and jumper out the fuse...also saving a few connections. thanks in advance:
While i do not purport to be knowledgeable on panels,Leo, 4 amps, without a voltage rating, seems rather a lot. With a moderate voltage of 40v at power, from your amps, i chould think that it is a lot of power rewuired to open that fuse. This is from my seat, mind you.
What do the panel forum guys say?
The cross section of the conductor is of zero rela vence.
I have noticed that the fuses in my maggies seem to blow more often then they should. I have seen things on the MUG website where people have bypassed the fuse by simply running a wire across a burnt out fuse and soldering the ends. Not sure how safe that is as I am pretty sure that voids any warranty on the panels from Magnepan.
Christopher, You BET that's a good way to 'short' out the warranty! How much power are you running? These things play only SO LOUD and more power just pisses 'em off. Could you be over doing it, just slightly? My original MG-1s ran out of headroom at about 250 @4 per panel at which time the 1 1/2 amp fuse went south. I hesitate to think what the 4 amp in my current panels would withstand before popping.
Nuck. You are also correct. 'Conventional' Magnepan wisdom says that the more power the better with no upper limit specified. This of course, is nutty. Better is still better. That being said there are Bi amp types who use pairs of Bryston 4b and even a few tube guys. Even if someone gifted me 10 large, I'd not spend it on more stuff, just a complete overhall for the listening area.
Now, I've 'peeked' at the internal wiring of my panels and gotta say it is pretty cheesy for a speaker pair knocking on the 2k$ door. I hope the 2 models upline are better in this regard. Magnepan has a goal, I suspect, and is in a pretty hi labor cost country to be making speakers. I have seen a suggestion for Magnepan to make a SE version ( Special Edition) without any MDF and with a crossover upgrade to say.....Mundorf or at least Clarity level caps and air core inductors. Real wood frames and maybe a Maple base. External crossover and all good wiring. Maybe an extra 50% onto my 1.6s.
I'm going to try the fuse bridge. I NEVER crank 'em to anything approaching the danger level and if I can get a little clarity or dynamic help, so be it.
http://www.indiespinzone.com/mag/mag9.html
Above link goes to Peter Gunn sight. This guy is a woodworker / audiophile and happens to love his panels.
I have a 'Kill-a-Watt' plug in meter with voltage, current, power, VA and total KWH used since plug in. I use it to check Power Factor on various loads once I got on that kick. I could plug the amp into it, play some test tones, pretty loud, I imagine and see. While not current to speakers, at least an idea of total system draw.
Probably know somebody with a clamp and not even know it! I'll check around.
Try the Gunn sight. The fans are adamant about the improvement.
I actually don't run that much power to my maggies. The amp doesn't have a 5 ohm rating, but I know it runs 75W to 8 ohms. I sometimes play around with my tube amp and try different configurations with bi-amping and bi-wiring and it is most likely my own fault by not powering down equipment before switching things around.
A 4 amp fast blow fuse sounds about right for the panels though I'd probably stick with a 3 amp unless you constantly blow the 3 amp fuse and then you can step back to a 4 amp.
Fuses are verbotten on high end speakers nowdays just as high frequency trim pots have gone the way of the latest CBS sitcom. It's rather silly if you ask me because speaker fuses disappeared for exactly the reason Leo exclaims - all that money spent on amperage from the amp and fire hose variety speaker cables and then it all passes through a 4 amp fast blow fuse. Kinda shrivels some testosterone when you see that skinny little fuse wire at the end of all that big honkin' copper and PVC in those cables.
Now, I won't bore you with just how much copper is required to make a speaker sound right but those 10 A.W.G. cables sure seem a waste to me.
I would guess that should you try measuring the amperage you'd fine it seldom peaks above four amps - otherwise, the fuse would have blown.
What are you going to jumper the fuse with, Leo? The same gauge as your speaker cables? That should be some jumper!
Why not try the "audiophile" fuses instead? Or try reversing the direction of the fuse that's in the speakers now. Direction can matter, you know? No joke, give it a try. Or check the directional markers on the audiophile fuses.
If I had seen the internal wiring beforehand I'd have skipped the 10ga. 12ga, especially for my fairly short runs of <9ft/side would still be near-overkill, even as LOUD as I can play it.
Never popped a fuse. Also, 4 amps at 50v total, to the panel is pretty darn loud. Let alone that current to the mid/tweet only.
Geez, remember when my folks had a 76 Hornet. It was a hunter/dark green. 232, straight six, 2 barrel.... Nice car.. Remember fondly when my dad took out the back seat so he could load it with provisions when he went up to Canada with his buddies... Memories.....misty water colored memories.... Sorry, back to you regularly scheduled conversation...
X-over board is about 5" on a side, holds 3 or 4 parellel HF caps and a jumbo for LF. From the little I can see, wiring is about 16ga. , no thicker. Also, the bottom of the driver panel has 4 push on connectors. Traces on board are fair sized and won't fuse before the.......fuse.
I'll get the device engineer at work to write me a SPICE routine to see how much I'm planning on messing w/Magnepan's fine work.
Cap wires are tiny, too. The inductor is iron or ferrite cored and 16 ga. at thickest, as well. I'm convinced there is no more than 100$, probably less, of Maggies money in the crossover of the pair. I could be 2x high.
I believe the stock crossover design, which is really simple, can be optimized with a higher grade part and better construction.
OH, the fuse can be removed from the circuit by opening the connector panel and swapping a wire from one end of the fuse to the other. Should take about 10" per panel and is easily reversible.
No experimenting w/30$ fuses for me. Or kilo buck power cords.
And while I'm at it, I may get rid of the banana plugs, as well. binding posts should be a no-brainer and aren't all that much $$
So, in the end, the signal is sent through no more than a 16 AWG wire - and actually more like a 18-20 gauge lead out from a high frequency filter cap.
If you've never blown a fuse, why not spend the bucks for some high grade fuses? A one time investment that can upgrade the sound and you're going to pass it up? I believe your biases are showing, Leo.
60$ for fuses? I'll design them out of the circuit altogether first. Swapping a wire in the panel is minimally intrusive and should only take a few minutes.
For now, I think my best leverage will be to rebuild per Magnepan original design using a slightly better grade of part.
Yes, I'll freely admit to bias in this case, though I am still open to a demo. And at risk of opening a REAL can of whoop XXX, I believe that in the case of a fuse, such testing is amenable to DBT techniques. This is very simple and finite and without the complications entailed in PC/IC testing or some other comparisons. Not better/worse, but merely a reliably, statistically valid identification of 'different' would satisfy me. The one feature, however of all the hifi fuses, is they are ceramic. I can pick up a pair for Buss or Littlefuse for a few bucks and give a listen. Polar fuses in an AC circuit is also a concept which escapes me. By implication, ceramic fuses are immune to microphonic effects of a suspended wire.
You don't believe in audiophile fuses - but you believe in microphonics affecting the fuse wire?!!!
Rather cynical to think what you can buy for $1.50 from Buss is the same as what you would buy from HiFi Tuning for $30. Kind of like thinking that Pioneer receiver really is as good as its specs make it look.
The only way to test the fuses, whether DB or not, is to buy them and use them. Then you can check the audible effects of polarity in a fuse - which should be every bit as important as microphonics of a fuse. That is, assuming your system is transparent enough to indicate improvements.
I wasn't clear. my bad. I mentioned microphonics in a fuse as a possible mechanism...not that I necessarily believe it. That being said, IF (IF) microphonics are the mechanism by which fuses contribute (!) sound of there own, then damping the filament thru a ceramic or silicon sand fill makes sense and should indeed render the buck-a-shot fuse equal to the esoteric brand at 30x the cost.
Until someone can tell me or demonstrate for me that a fuse ain't a fuse....and that HiFi Tuning fuses and others have a real and substantial difference, I'll put my belief on hold. Subject to someone willing to demonstrate. But that's all beside the point if I can, thru a very simple rewire, eliminate the fuse altogether. That way there is nothing left to argue about. Sort of I ReFuse!
TskTsk, Jan. I won't fall for the 'specs is specs' thing, either. To compare 70 watts of Pioneer HT to the same in any of the upmarket HT stuff is nutty. I haven't listened to much of it, except in the odd pass thru the Big Store, but I'm sure you'd get 50% better stuff for 25% more $$. (fill in your value / cost #s)
Once again, thanks for your input.
but just as a concept, do you think there is ANY leverage to a total rebuild of the Maggie x-over to stock specs, but using an upgraded component choice?
The panel guys on MUG and a similar group on Planar Asylum all go thru real hoops to make panels sound better. Everything from a simple stand / panel stiffener to bi/tri amping w/active x-overs are on the table as well as arguments about reversing the panel in the frame, angle of tilt and why MDF should be replaced by real wood. The wood frame / stock crossover with premium components is the way I've chosen. Using available North American hardwoods, either Poplar, White or Red Oak and Clarity SA Caps along with handwound (experimenting now) aircores seem the way to go.
Couple last notes. I'm glad it 'doesn't sound like a box'. Fell in love with the sound at first listen. Also, If you listen to the darn thing, a fuse is not really necessary. Once I realized my panels output limits, I replaced the 1 1/2 amp with 1 amp in my original panels and never popped another fuse. Jan's suggestion to try a 3 amp fuse is a good one and I will try that soon. It will give me an idea how loud the upper limit is on loudness.
"I mentioned microphonics in a fuse as a possible mechanism...not that I necessarily believe it. That being said, IF (IF) microphonics are the mechanism by which fuses contribute (!) sound of there own, then damping the filament thru a ceramic or silicon sand fill makes sense and should indeed render the buck-a-shot fuse equal to the esoteric brand at 30x the cost."
Oh, Leo, you cling to the "if i can hear it, it must be measurable" schtick, don't you? Why must there be a "conventional" explanation of the "mechanism" that allows audiophile fuses to benefit sound quality? Why not "just because they do"? Not because of microphonics or any other conventional explanation but simply because they do what they advertise in a way no one has thought of before? And looking at the old fashioned ways isn't getting to the new thinking behind audiophile fuses. Looking for the "obvious" explanation before you even try the item seems to me to be self-defeating and feeding a bias that will keep you thinking that 10 AWG cable is good even though the capacitor leads are only 18-16 AWG. Are you going to DBT that theory? If you insist on replacing the fuse with a jumper, why not use a jumper the equivalent of the leadouts on the caps? That would be consistent with the rest of the design, wouldn't it? The signal can be no better than hose 18-16 AWG leadouts allow. So why try to cram a 10 AWG jumper in the circuit? What are you expecting from a 10 AWG jumper replacing a fuse in the high frequency section of the crossover that a jumper the size of the cap leads won't manage? Haven't you already thought that maybe bigger isn't always better - or even necessary? Why not give thin and fast a try instead of fat and slow? I detect expectation biases working overtime.
You claim to be too smart to fall for the specs is specs issue but you still can't see your way clear to not seeing everything as a matter of having a conventional explanation and therefore you see a cheaper substitute as being the same thing as the more expensive item. If the Buss fuse was the same as the audiophile fuse, why do you suppose years before now no one had said they used the Buss fuse and heard an improvement?
I see a fault in your logic.
"Until someone can tell me or demonstrate for me that a fuse ain't a fuse....and that HiFi Tuning fuses and others have a real and substantial difference, I'll put my belief on hold. Subject to someone willing to demonstrate."
Are you asking me to show you the reviews that state the fuses do provide improvements? I don't understand what you want, Leo. The fuses have been reviewed by numerous reputable sources who state that despite their scepticism the fuses did improve sound quality. The reviewers who have said this have nothing to gain by making the statement (except possibly a few fuses bought on dealer's accomodation pricing) and more to loose from being attacked by those who insist - always without trying the fuses - that fuses are fuses. There you have several good sources of demonstration that you can rely upon, why ignore them?
The only other demonstration you are going to get is to try the fuses in your own system. Unless, that is, you expect one of the fuse manufacturers to waltz over to your place with a handful of fuses to try out.
"but just as a concept, do you think there is ANY leverage to a total rebuild of the Maggie x-over to stock specs, but using an upgraded component choice?"
I guess you'll have to explain "leverage" to me. I think you can make the speakers sound different than they do now.
Is that good or bad?
It sounds as though you've read the numerous rewires and changes the panel tweakers have performed. And every one said they thought the sound was much better than before they started screwing with the speaker, didn't they? So how can every one of those tweaks be better when not one of them is the same? If wood matters, why can't anyone decide which wood matters? Or is that not important? Is which wood sounds correct not the real issue? Just that wood sounds different than MDF?
Yes, I think you can make the speakers sound different than they do right now before you start messing with them. Will you do what works best or just what works in your room in your system? How will you know what caps and inductors actually perform best in the speakers? Any time you change crossover components you also affect the values of the components. One cap doesn't have the same reactance as another cap. One inductor will have a different resistance than another inductor. If you change the internal wiring, you'll certainly change the overall value of the crossover network.
Everything adds up to you changing the actual designed crossover values to something new that isn't what the designers intended. So how will you know which new component(s) operates correctly? Or how to make up in one component what you altered in another?
Or will you just color the sound to be pleasing to you in this system? In this room? If so, why'd you buy those speakers in the first place?
If Magnepan has a factory authorized upgrade, I would do that. Otherwise, I think you can make the speakers sound different than they sound right now.
last first: Magnepan is up against the wall of cost. There line has been compared to more expensive speakers at many price points. the MMG (?) is considered by many a bargain. That being said, why not a Hot Rod Magnepan? Replace / rebuild / reengineer with a higher line or set of components and a real wood frame? Real wood has acoustic properties which to me make it worth at least an experiment to get rid of the stock MDF frame, which is both pretty wimpy and inert.
I think the reason they can get away with such wimpy (internal) wire is the issue of total resistivity. 16, for example at about 4 ohms/1000 feet would take all 1000 ft to have the same DCR as either driver in a panel. So, it is easy to see how they can get away with 2 or 3 feet of it in a PAIR of panels. Current capacity is not an issue, especially considering the design intent of a 4 amp fuse. Besides, the panel wire itself can only take so much.
I don't see why my 10ga. overkill cables are an issue. Yep, way overboard. For my length of run, 12 is still good enough and 14ga would be fine. Never hear the diff. 10 was what I wanted. 10 is what I got. When times get real weird, I'll sell 'em for scrap and use an old extension cord for new wire and sell the 10ga for a house payment.
My intent is not to change the crossover, but to make an upgraded version of the stock design. I really doubt that going to a higher end component of the same value will change the design intent. That reactance (and resistance) of any new proposed cap is different than stock is a given. Will that difference be for the worse/better or effectively NO difference? Same goes for inductors. I will size the inductor for greater current capacity while leaving the DCR within about 5% of standard ironcores. The increase in conductor size and the physical size of the inductor is what it will take. New inductor is about 1" tall and just over 4" in outside diameter. It uses about 2 1/2lb of 14 ga.
As for why? Well, the sound of stock is fine. I intend to do the frames first. The frame will improve the appearance which is somewhere between monolithic and stark. The stock crossover will go in an external enclosure. That will pave the way for some testing of new components. I will design in a variable tilt feature. The frames, I'm pre-convinced (!!!) will improve the speakers even in my marginal room. Both visually and audibly. Crossovers will be approached more gingerly. I am now working on a PVC coil winding jig and how to keep epoxy glue from sticking to something. The coils are intended to be partially epoxy potted to prevent some of the messes I've seen photos of. A prototype will be built and compared with stock. They can be easily swapped side to side to negate room effects, or at least identify them.
Don't forget that this is no nuttier than people chasing ICs, PCs and speaker cable. I'm just chasing a different aspect. Maggies are very DIYable. Try the Magnepan Users Group site and see the variety of things people try and what floats the various boats.
First first; "last first: Magnepan is up against the wall of cost. There line has been compared to more expensive speakers at many price points. the MMG (?) is considered by many a bargain. That being said, why not a Hot Rod Magnepan? Replace / rebuild / reengineer with a higher line or set of components and a real wood frame? Real wood has acoustic properties which to me make it worth at least an experiment to get rid of the stock MDF frame, which is both pretty wimpy and inert."
I have to ask, what makes you think any product that is extremely value priced and manages across the board to compare "to more expensive speakers at many price points" can be improved by fiddling with it in your substitution limited and measurement limited way? I agree many listeners find the MMG to be a true value in speaker technology which leads me to believe Magnepan has done about as much as can be reasonably expected to squeeze performance out of the design. I'm kind of not of the opinion a 2009 MMG is the same as a '69 Mach I where you could still slap a set of aftermarket headers and re-jet the carbs on the engine and gain a smidgen of performance. I see more potential for harm than I do gain in such a process on a proven product. Sort of like the guy with the Dyno and the budget and facilities for all the test gear and parts to try is still probably going to beat the guy with the Mach I he "fixed up" in his driveway with a socket wrench and a Philips head screwdriver. The factory knows their product better than anyone else and has access to far more sophisticated test equipment, mock ups and comparisons than any average DIY'er. As I stated, if your intent is only to make the speakers sound different than they do from the factory, then you can certainly accomplish that goal by changing the factory design. If you can convince yourself that whatever you do is good - which most people can even when they later find they left a wire unsoldered, then you really have no worries.
But doesn't the word "inert" mean something to you, Leo? I'm not arguing that MDF is perfect for speaker enclosures but you bought the speakers in large part because they didnt have an enclosure sound. Now you are saying you don't like the "inert" lack of sound from the enclosure that Magnepan has chosen. So, you'll replace the inert material with another material that obviously cannot be as inert - as "soundless" - as the MDF?! That makes no sense to me.
Any solid wood frame will resonate which means it will contribute a sound that is not in the amplifier's signal. How does that not add up to an uncontrollable addition that only moves the speakers away from the originally stated goal of not sounding like a more colored system? Because you've read on the forums that the frame should be changed?
Ooooookaaaaaaaayyyy!!!!!!
"I think the reason they can get away with such wimpy (internal) wire is the issue of total resistivity. 16, for example at about 4 ohms/1000 feet would take all 1000 ft to have the same DCR as either driver in a panel. So, it is easy to see how they can get away with 2 or 3 feet of it in a PAIR of panels. Current capacity is not an issue, especially considering the design intent of a 4 amp fuse. Besides, the panel wire itself can only take so much."
I think maybe you are missing something here. The DCR of the drivers?! What manufacturer would choose internal cabling by trying to achieve a DCR similar to that of the drivers?
I think you are partially correct when you say the internal cabling was chosen for a reason and part of that reason is total resistance and reactance. And that is exactly where I think you could be making a mistake in assuming the OEM cable doesn't matter to the final sound of the speaker.
Several speaker manufacturers I have worked with have been very specific about tweakers changing out their internal cabling (or other components) through the misguided assumption that the thick, heavy gauge stuff they used from their amplifier should also be used as the internals of the speaker. These manufacturers have made it clear - to largely no avail however, people believe what people want to believe - that they chose their wire as a portion of their crossover circuit and changing the internal cabling did in fact change the crossover values and in unpredictable ways when the change was not a testable or controllable alteration.
I also tend to think you are misjudging that 4 amp fuse in the HF circuit. Consider for a moment the actual voltage that is sent through that circuit, a HF driver of virtually any configuration in a home system will be unlikely to see as much as 10 watts of power on peaks and will average in the one to three watts range. With only a small amount of voltage going to the HF circuit the amperage of the fuse rating is not the same as if it were seeing the 120VAC stamped on its case. Fuses deal with voltage, amperage and time. So you might want to reconsider just what is happening in that 4 amp fuse.
Additionally, have you even considered that it is quite possible Magnepan chose their internal cabling for a specific sonic reason? Not everyone subscribes to "thicker is better" when it comes to speaker cables and it is all together possible Magnepan chose that specific cable for the sound it contributed to their final product. Change it and you will certainly change the intended sound of the speaker. In what way is not something you will be able to predict.
Yes, yes, I know all about the DIY'ers on the forums who tweak this and modify that but most of them are not much more than hackers who don't always improve a product no matter which wood they choose or which cable - they just like to think they've done something because, as I mentioned, they have made the speaker sound different than it did before they tore into it. They don't measure most of their results or have consistency in the measurements they might seek or there would be more consistency between suggested mods, they could agree on a wood for the frame or that there shouldn't be a resonant wood for the frame and they could largely agree on cables and caps.
"I don't see why my 10ga. overkill cables are an issue. Yep, way overboard. For my length of run, 12 is still good enough and 14ga would be fine. Never hear the diff. 10 was what I wanted. 10 is what I got. When times get real weird, I'll sell 'em for scrap and use an old extension cord for new wire and sell the 10ga for a house payment."
That must be some 10 gauge cable you got there, Leo. A house payment, eh?
But I still question, why 10 AWG? If you admit to not being able to hear any difference, why 10 AWG?
Just because?
Did you even entertain the idea that 10 AWG might not be the best sounding cable for your application? Or that stranded cable might not be the best? Or that the capacitance of a stranded, twisted pair 10 AWG cable might be working against the design goals of the panels? Was this just a "bigger is better" decision? You wanted 10 gauge so you got 10 gauge?
"My intent is not to change the crossover, but to make an upgraded version of the stock design. I really doubt that going to a higher end component of the same value will change the design intent. That reactance (and resistance) of any new proposed cap is different than stock is a given. Will that difference be for the worse/better or effectively NO difference? Same goes for inductors. I will size the inductor for greater current capacity while leaving the DCR within about 5% of standard ironcores. The increase in conductor size and the physical size of the inductor is what it will take. New inductor is about 1" tall and just over 4" in outside diameter. It uses about 2 1/2lb of 14 ga."
But obviously you will change the crossover, you say so yourself. And in unpredictable ways since you aren't taking into account why Magnepan might have chosen the OEM component or just what your new component does to alter the circuit. Possibly I'm missing something here but I'm not aware of you saying you were taking any measurements to establish a basline for each component's values beyond what's stamped on the side of the cap or the color banding on the resistor. Moving from one gauge in the winding of a coil to another gauge alters the resistance and reactance of the coil and its subsequent in use values as heat builds up. If you have no baseline to go with, how do you move forward not knowing where you have departed from stock?
"As for why? Well, the sound of stock is fine."
I don't know, Leo, I can't tell you how many times I've heard those same words said just before someone screwed something up. Your word "pre-convinced" is all that needs to be said I suppose - sort of like your 10 AWG cables. I tend to think getting inside a component and changing things without a certain degree of aiming to make something better and not just different is not all for the good. The idea that there are dozens and dozens of mods listed on the forums that all claim results better than stock makes me more nervous than confident of success in such a venture. How many ways can you change a high end product and still have it be better than some garage built whatjamacallit?
But, they're your speakers and you get to do as you please. I would simply caution a bit more thought before you start buying parts - particularly if your next step is to wrap your own oil in paper capacitors.
Jan, I was agreeing with you! 16 ga in the panel is pretty much ok to leave alone. The current capacity is fine. No need for major cable. And I won't be doing any fancy weave of 4 strands of 20ga. or whatever, either. My point with mentioning the DCR of the wire is that the DCR is patently NOT a factor in the panels operation. The DCR of each driver is about 4 ohms. As for inductance or capacitance changes, they are noise compared to the stock value variability. To add wiring effects, I'd have to really mess up the re-do. In order to produce a change with same value parts having substantially different values for un-specified characteristics, the new part would have to be radically different in the new parameter. I am aware of capacitor models which are a cap in series with an inductor and a resistor. I think new caps with lower ESR and built of premium materials will help and certainly can't hurt. If capacitance and resistance and inductance of internal parts were an issue, then Magnepan would straighten out there lead dress and parts arrangement. I therefore sincerely doubt that rebuilding the crossover with a better grade of part and using obsessive construction techniques will be anything but to the good.
Don't think I hadn't thought of winding my own caps. I can get sheets of 10mil teflon and silver or copper foil. Just Kidding. I may be crazy, but I'm not nuts. or whatever! (fill in blank to your hearts content!)
Trust me! All changes will be done one-at-a-time and listened to before proceeding. Crossovers in speaker, for example, will be transferred to external enclosures when the first speaker is framed. Mono listening tests will check for alterations in sound. Stereo / imagining can't, obviously, be checked in this fashion. Than the other speaker will be made to match.
Crossover will be stock design with a better grade of component and fewer connections. More attention will be paid to parts layout and the inductor MAY be shielded with mu-metal. The stock inductor will stay in play until I can fabricate new aircores. My first test of finding something Epoxy Glue won't stick too came back with a good result. My coil winding jig is nearly complete and I have settled on final coil dimensions. 14ga. is the choice since it is much easier to manipulate than 13 or 12, gives a DCR within 5% of stock and doesn't take up much space. The coil will behave as stock, except at higher powers where saturation will cease to be an issue. It is generally conceded that the Original parts choice was based on cost and space limitations. The proposed crossover is substantially larger than stock and would not fit in the stock location with a crowbar and a mallet. OH, one other minor x-over point. The DCR of the LF panel is about 4ohms. So, the inductor at 0.4 ohms is about 10% of that value. So, if 200 watts are being dissipated only 20 watts will go to the coil. It'll be warm but certainly not hot.
You've been a great help. I'll indeed proceed slowly. Making the speakers look better will be a first step. I have decided on Maple or maybe Ash or Alder. Then everything will sit while new crossovers are fabricated. I should be able to determine improvements as a go ahead single step fashion. You know, some time ago we traded posts about reviewers. Your words in answer to my question about 'can it all sound good?' was 'yes, if you find the right reviewer'. So while subjectivity may reign, you're still welcome to drop in sometime for a Scotch (6 diff on tap) and a good listen.
My crack about the value of 10ga cable was in the future, when we've all been forced to be so green that nobody can afford to live, let alone feed a hi-end stereo habit. All the copper mines will be closed then, too, so my cable will be very valuable. And yes, just because!
Oh, Leo, you cling to the "if i can hear it, it must be measurable" schtick, don't you? Why must there be a "conventional" explanation of the "mechanism" that allows audiophile fuses to benefit sound quality? Why not "just because they do"?
Jan, of course everything is measurable. People can convince themselves of everything and anything. However, in a world where science as an organizing principle rules, we'd have heard about a failure in Gravity, for example. No matter how hard someone falling off a building wishes, it still works.
Leo, thanks for the invite but Scotch and I have a problem since a bout of flu and the contents of an 18 year old single malt met in my stomach a few years back. It's an ugly story that doesn't need to be repeated here but Scotch and I are no longer amico.
You and I will disagree about what is measurable and what is not. I find too often those who rely on measurements rely too much on their machines and forget that hearing and perception can only take place after the pressure wave has affected the eardrum.
A last cautionary piece of advice, I would strongly rely on Magnepan's recommendations for upgrades and tweaks. I'm all for DIY and modifying what was done to cost*, however, I always considered when it was most prudent to get my hands out of a piece of equipment rather than plunging in with all four appendages and later finding what I thought to be so much of an improvement resulted from one part being left out.
*We've discussed here, if I remember correctly, that the 5% stamp on the components might not truly represent the tolerance of the parts employed. Many high end manufacturers, particularly in vintage gear where tolerances tended to run higher, found it was more cost effective to buy case lots of parts at higher tolerances and then hand pick those to be used for very tight values. Don't be fooled into thinking Magnepan used overall cost as a final arbitter unless you know this to be the case.
Sorry to hear 'bout your Scotch shunt. Just like my panels, I loved Scotch the first time I tasted it (Chivas) and was pleasantly surprised when I tasted my first Single Malt. I have 9 kinds of beer available, too, if that's any help. My annual batch of Noche Buena arrived last week. That is a special brew from Mexico. It is brewed from a slightly higher gravity with some darker malts. Yum.
Test the current components? Good Idea. I wish I had an inductance meter and a capacitance meter. My brother just blew into town for the Holidays and I think he has an AmpClamp on the boat. With that and my Kill-a-watt meter I can measure efficiency of the amp. 'D' stuff is supposed to be very efficient and I may have enough gear in place to be able to confirm.
I believe that MORE will be measurable in the future. Some Phenom which are not currently measurable or even heard by the majority, or even with repeatability, may be described. I suspect a person / equipment interaction at a very psychological level. Weird, but that's the way I'm leaning.
Parts can be matched at additional expense by most reputable vendors. While I also think that cost was an issue, I would also admit and expect extensive listening. But to think they'd go with Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil whatever caps at there cost of 400$ or more per pair is a little too much to expect. That's why I have seen it suggested that Magnepan build a 'hot rod' version of the 1.6 or even the 3.6 with wood frame done as fine furniture and upgraded internals. Have your credit card ready. The caps now installed are 5% Solon which retail for 5-8$ each. Magnepan DOES tune each panel. you can see the tuning dots which are not located in the same place on each driver. They are tuned to have different resonant frequencies and the problems which would occur if 2 adjacent panels 'agreed'.
Magnepan has a deserved reputation for being forthcoming with assistance for the DIY or even just the curious. Just call 'em and the nice lady that answers will be happy to forward you to someone who can help!
No 'peer review' of this, but it is an aftermarket external x-over for my panels made with 'premium' parts. They get 600$/pair and I've spec'd em out for a fraction of that. I'd give a pickle to know exactly what foil inductor they buy. Again, the Sonicaps are very affordable, not much more $$ than the panel's stock solons. I will do this but use Clarity SA caps.
