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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 29 Registered: Apr-07 | I'm wondering if upgrading from an entry-level Onkyo TX-SR502 to a Marantz SR6001 would be a lateral move. Basically I'm happy with the sound of my Onkyo, but lately I've been pushing it harder and it seems to compress, if that's the right word. The midrange becomes very cluttered and distorted on complex material, and overall it just sounds like it's straining. The Marantz 6001 seems like a good option, although it seems a bit light so I'm not sure of the quality of the transformer. It is spec'd to a higher power rating which doesn't mean anything obviously but it is in the next tier up as far as receivers go, so I'm thinking it might do the job. I am open to suggestions on anything else in the price range (this is going for about $350 refurbished on Accessories4Less). They also have the SR4003 which is the current generation, though that seems a bit closer to my Onkyo so I'm thinking I might have similar issues. I'm open to an integrated amp as well - I have a full 5.1 setup, which I like, but music is my first priority, so if there's anything else in that price range that has a little more headroom but is only a 2 channel amp, I'd be fine with that. I should point out that I have wood paneling walls - I know this is far from optimal, but I'm not sure it's the sole problem. To my ears, my receiver honestly does seem like it's straining (or maybe that's just how I want to hear it). At lower volumes it is very enjoyable to me. The rest of my setup is: Cambridge Soundworks Newton M80 mains - 86db/1w/1m Cambridge Soundworks Newton MC400 center - 89 or 90db/1w/1m Cambridge Soundworks Newton S200 surrounds - 85?db/1w/1m Cambridge Soundworks Newton II P205 sub for speakers, and my source is a Marantz CD5003 CDP. My room currently is an L shaped, long wall 17', short wall 13.5'. The system is in the L which is 10' wide and 3.5' deep, and the rest of the wall 7' obviously, with me sitting on the long wall (I'm sure that sounds far more complicated than it needs to be, I can show a pic if necessary). It was set up with the use of the soundstage.com guide (http://www.soundstage.com/audiohell/audiohell200111.htm, the one at the bottom of the page). Eventually, I will be in a much more manageable 18x12 basement room. Hopefully that was enough info for this relatively simple question, at least to the point where I don't get the "you're just looking to spend money" replies. Thanks to whoever is willing to help. -Freddie |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 791 Registered: Jun-08 | If you'd like to stay with Onkyo, the 605 or new 606 can be had for reasonable prices and are hard to beat, if not impossible to beat for price/performance. Lot's of power into 8ohm speakers and decent clarity. |
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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 30 Registered: Apr-07 | Do you think they'd be better than the SR6001? This was in the $1000 price class in it's time....The 605/606 seem more like the $500 class. Not that that means much, but they just don't seem too comparable to me (and would the 60x be much of an improvement over the 502?). I have heard Marantz gear with Cambridge Soundworks speakers before, and like the combination, but Onkyo/CSW seem to work well together too. I have never heard these specific models paired together though. Does anyone know the deal with A4L's return policy on open box items so I could at least demo it? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13653 Registered: May-04 | . Power compression and congestion takes place in the amplifier, the speakers and the room. You should determine which item or items are responsible for your problem before you simply replace a receiver. Buying more power is rather ineffective when it is better power you should be after. That would require a relatively large jump from a receiver into at minimum a much better integrated amplifier if not entry level separates. If your speakers cannot deliver the SPL's you desire, then they would be a first choice for replacement. If you have not invested in any sort of room treatments - at the very least at first reflection points on the walls, floor and ceiling - and investigated what is happening immediately behind your listening position, then the room should receive some attention before you spend money on equipment. I would begin with the room since it will affect any other components you introduce and most typically requires more attention than people wish since buying new equipment seems to be more enticing. Don't overdo the dampening material if this is the route you choose, it's easy to take some life out of the music by treating the wrong points too heavily other points not at all and not realizing the amount of reflections that occur within the room. Floor reflections are very strong and contribute to problems at all frequencies. Positioning is more important than total coverage. Try some diffusion materials behind you where you are very likely hearing multiple reflections coming back at you. Overall, even at first reflection points, diffusion is easier to get right than dampening. http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=94&CFID=2630025&CFTOKEN=69541118 Take a look at this site; http://www.acousticsciences.com/ (http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=acs%20tube%20traps&type=) Their products are what everyone else's are compared to. They are not cheap but they are IMO far better than any other imitator's stuff and your room doesn't end up looking like it's been invaded by alien refrigerator doors. RPG builds excellent diffusion grids. http://www.rpginc.com/ You can begin with a few DIY experiments and graduate to the real thing as your budget allows. http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=diy%20acoustic%20panels&type= . |
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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 31 Registered: Apr-07 | Yeah, I have been working my way through my room "cleaning" it to get the sound I'm looking for, but do you really think just constant more room tweaking will resolve this issue? I have noticed that since I tried the room setup guide I mentioned (I've also tried WASP in the past) I did have great results, but not in the respect where this "problem" lies. I understand the cycle of buying more power and how it doesn't lead anywhere, but I'm not simply looking for more SPL as you said. My receiver seems capable of delivering at the levels I listen at, so long as the material isn't complex. It seems like when there is a lot going on is when it sounds like it starts to compress, not simply just high volume. Maybe compress isn't the proper term, but that's how I'd describe it. I will take your advice and continue to work at my room, but I'm still not fully convinced that it is the sole issue. I will say I have heard my speakers in the past on more substantial equipment (higher end Onkyo) and they did not have this straining trait that I'm describing, which is why I arrived at the receiver. Can you give some advice on room treatments? Would adding foam or something like that at the first node and behind where I sit as you said be a good start? Edit: Opps, sorry didn't see you edited your post. I'll read up on your link. I will say I could definitely see rear wall reflections and cancellations being part of the problem, but as I said, I'm not fully convinced that it's all there is to it. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13654 Registered: May-04 | . Hearing your speakers perform well in another room isn't telling of what you can achieve in your location unless your room is a duplicate - down to treatments - of the other room. Go to the "Articles" section of this forum and cruise around for acoustic's based ideas. Put "acoustic treatments" in any search engine and you'll find sites that offer ideas for room treatments. Go back and check the DIY search page I added to my post. One site that has a reasonable amount of information is the RealTraps site. I prefer ACS and other companies to working with RealTraps but that is a personal decision. The WASP speaker set up normally offers the best overall performance since it provides fewer reflections than many others. Toeing in your speakers or not makes large differences in the sound you hear as it affects the mid/high frequency dispersion into the room which determines much of what you consider the heart of the music. How your speakers disperse mid and high frequencies determines whether you should toe in your speakers and how much. I usually begin my set ups with the speakers crossing in front of the listening postion as this pushes the first reflections further out into the room and minimizes second and third reflections. YMMV You need to think of reflections as a cue ball bouncing around your room or, if need be, use a mirror to do proper set up for treatment of those points. If you are sitting close to the back wall, it will almost always need some sort of diffusion to break up reflective patterns that confuse your ears. Most of the professionals have some free advice they are willing to give without cost or at minimal cost, most come down to you putting in some effort trying different positions and treatments. For the most part you can count on any room being the largest deterrent to good sound. Rooms are designed for living in and not for good sound. Unless you do something to help your speakers work with the room, you'll never hear your system at its best. If you are not interested in having large panels in your room, there are alternative treatments which provide more sophisticated - if more controversial - results. But virtually any room needs at least some treatments to get up and running. Bass response will flatten out and become both deeper,tighter and better defined in pitch with a few traps in the corners and taming reflective surfaces does the rest. Almost any treatment you use can be transferred to the next and the next and the next room. But seldom does someone remove room treatments after they have installed them and lived with their benefits. The only thing I've found is it's easy to get hooked on their benefits and you do too much at first. Go slow and work with someone who can listen along with you to get the proper mix. . |
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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 32 Registered: Apr-07 | Alright, thankyou for your help. I'll read into this/try it in some form before i pull the trigger on a receiver. I'm looking forward to being in the said 12x18 basement room, if that ever happens. As it is now my system is on the right wall, but very open to the left, so I'm not sure how to deal with that in terms of physical panels. As I said in my previous post, the system is in the leg of the L, so I have the 13' 6" right wall and a 3' 6" left wall (and 17' rear wall). I will definitely start on the rear wall since I have heard very clear reflections (delayed sounds) when off axis. I haven't fully read through your articles yet but could you give me a very basic idea on how I'd deal with this, or where to start (not asking you to do it for me, I'm just not sure what to read/where to begin on dealing with an awkward room shape like this. I suppose I should give WASP another try since I half assed it last time around, and it seems like this would be a good situation for it)? One upgrade I definitely am going to make is stands. I've been meaning to do this for a while as my speakers are too heavy for the Sanus NF stands I have, and they resonate a lot. My dad is a welder so I drew up a basic 2 pillar steel stand (2" square pipe with 1/2" plate, sand filled) that I think should be a pretty decent upgrade. I'm thinking maybe some of the resonance coming from that end of things could be contributing to the "compression" that I'm hearing as well. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13656 Registered: May-04 | . "I will definitely start on the rear wall since I have heard very clear reflections (delayed sounds) when off axis. I haven't fully read through your articles yet but could you give me a very basic idea on how I'd deal with this, or where to start ... " You do not want to kill (absorb) the back wall reflections. IMO you do not want to absorb any reflections other than those that cannot be dealt with in any other manner to achieve good sound. The basic problem with absorption is it is too broadband and can easily remove too much vital information that gives life to the music. As I suggested the manufacturers of these devices are typically willing to give generalized guidleines to get you started. Often all that is required is a good, thorough reading of their web pages. Diffusion is my best solution to most reflection points and certainly to those coming off the back wall. Simply put "diffusion" into a search engine and do some reading. Take a look at my earlier posts for references to items such as RPG. Near field, first reflections such as those coming from speakers situated very close to a side wall are probably best dealt with by strategic absorption as would be the reflections from the floor which are always quite close to the drivers and therefore quite strong. Ceilings should be considered a source of strong first reflections but those can sometimes be dealt with by dealing with the floor reflections first. How you choose to go about diffusion is up to you. Take a look at the options the manufacturers provide and at the DIY versions to be found on the net. IMO you will do better in the long run with devices that will serve your purpose long term rather than constantly swapping out electronics or speakers. Try the WASP set up with some intent on getting this right. Take a look at your room and consider whether your present location for the system is the best you can do. Good stands are essential in most cases to good sound. If you have doubts about how important a stand can be, try a five dollar experiment and head to the home improvement store to buy a few 18" cement blocks - enought to reach the height of your present stands. Stand them end on end and place your speakers of top of them. This should sound very different than your unfilled metal stands. One thing to keep in mind is what works for one person might not work for you when you begin tweaking your system. Just because you read that someone got good results by doing so and so, don't automatically assume it will work the same way for you. Try the tweak or adjustment but listen before you simply follow blindly down a path that might actually lead your system toward worse sound. Let your ears be your guide when you make adjustments. Once you grasp the basics of how to improve your system you can make significant steps forward with relatively low cost and effort. . |
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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 34 Registered: Apr-07 | Alright, thanks for your help. Will definitely read your articles today. The stands I have now are single pillar MDF stands, which is why I think the filled steel stands will be an improvement. I have thought about trying the cement blocks before, but have never got around to it, but in any case these new steel stands won't cost anything (again, my dad is a welder and we have the spare steel) so I don't think they'll hurt to try out. Thanks again for your help. |
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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 37 Registered: Apr-07 | I went to Spearit Sound in Boston today before a concert. The person I spoke to recommended an NAD integrated (believe it was the C315BEE) and said he'd let me take it home for a night next week. If that clears up some of the congestion I'm hearing, I'll stick with that I suppose. If I don't hear much of a difference I'm definitely going to be doing some treatment. The only reason I'm hesitant for this is I won't be in this room for too much longer hopefully, so I'd rather treat my new room properly than use what I used in here. So yeah, should have a new toy to play in a week or two. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9772 Registered: Feb-05 | The 315BEE is by a significant margin the least of NAD's integrated's if you could stretch the budget a hair the 325 or 326 is worth the difference plus. |
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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 38 Registered: Apr-07 | Do you know MSRP on the 325? He said he'd go about $50 under. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9773 Registered: Feb-05 | The 325 has been discontinued so if he has it he should be letting it go cheap. The 326 is about $450 I think. I have a friend who is an NAD dealer and last year we were going to get the 315 for my wife's office system, and he is not the type to suggest frivolous spending, and he strongly suggested that I move up one model. We've been listening to my wife's system all night tonight and it sounds pretty damn good. |
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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 39 Registered: Apr-07 | I'll ask if he has any 325s left when I go back in next week. If he doesn't I'm still going to try the 315 out, just to see if I hear any significant difference between it and the Onkyo. I'll try the 326 if I end up having enough money. |