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New member Username: DanoncPost Number: 10 Registered: Oct-07 | I've decided to purchase a Rega P2 to go with my Rotel/B&W system, but don't know which cartridge to go with. I should add that I'm a vinyl neophyte, by the way. I've spoken with 3 Rega dealers, all of which suggest a different cartridge. 1 suggests the Rega Bias, 1 suggests one of the new Ortofons (2m series - the red or the blue), and one rattled off a buch of different carts ranging from 100-600 bucks. My budget is limited to around 200 bucks for the cart if I want to have any cash left over for music. Most of my listening is acoustic music (jazz, old-time, bluegrass). Any opinions? Thanks, Dan J |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13134 Registered: May-04 | . The Rega arm does not have adjustable VTA - vertical tracking angle. This means you should either look at a Rega cartridge or you should choose any other cartridge that has the same height as the Rega cartridge. Cartridge height can be found on the manufacturer's web site. Stick with the same height as the Regas and the cartridge you choose will sound its best in the Rega arm. Otherwise, you might find a cartridge that is too short tends to sound rather tilted in the highs and somewhat over sensitive to various recording flaws or one that's too tall can sound "whumphy" in the bass and somewhat slow sounding. Any Rega dealer should recommend the correct cartridge for this arm knowing it does not have a fine VTA adjustment. You can make gross adjustments by shimming the arm but the dealer should inform you of this alteration since the shim will cost you some cash and you need to know why it's being installed. If they are selecting a cartridge just because they like it irregardless of how it works in the Rega arm they aren't doing you a favor. I don't think I'd even trust a dealer to set the table up correctly if they didn't inform me of the VTA limitations of the Rega arm and why one cartridge will operate more correctly in the Rega arm than another cartridge might. Stop shopping Rega dealers, they're all going to sell the table at pretty much the same price and make it up on the cartidge they suggest. Look at the height of the cartridges these three suggest. The one that suggests the cartridge that is the Rega or is closest to the Rega is the one you want to buy from. . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2108 Registered: Jun-07 | Just throwing out there that I am using a Ortofon Red with good results. Although my table is just a Dual, no Rega. I know the Ortofon's fit. From what I am told the Ortofon have a lower floor noise but are not as lively as the Rega ones. meh... I like Jan;s post. |
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Bronze Member Username: DanoncPost Number: 11 Registered: Oct-07 | Thanks folks. Jan, as always, great advice. Dan |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8234 Registered: Feb-05 | Dan if you have no intentions of upgrading the phono stage in the near future the Bias 2 or Elys 2 should do just fine and require the least tweaking. And Dan, Jan is right...choose a dealer. Dale is your closest and will give you soild recommendations. They also make sure all is well with the table before handing it to you. If you have a better relationship with Teri then by all means. I have no idea who the third dealer is. I've used the Ortofon 2M series and find them to be okay but they don't track any better nor do they sound any better than the rega cartridge and the Rega's fit the table like a glove. With your Rotel's phono stage which I've listened to, the Elys 2 would be ideal however if you can afford only the Bias...then so be it. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3395 Registered: Sep-04 | Dan, I disagree with Jan's approach. He's quite correct that the Rega cartridges are typically lower than other cartridges and therefore others would need to be shimmed. The shims are available from rega at a small extra cost. If the dealers didn't tell you that a shim would be involved, verify with them that they'd fit one and if they said 'of course' then you're away. Rega themselves don't think VTA is important but this is something that pretty much the whole of the HiFi industry is agreed upon and so Rega is the odd man out. So it is important to fit the right shim. I think you're on the money with your cartridge budget. You certainly shouldn't be spending more. If you did consider more, then you're really in the game of whether to go for a better cartridge with the worse deck or a P3-24 with the worse cartridge and I would always advocate the latter. I am not a fan of the Rega cartridges themselves. They're OK, but I find them a bit noisy and basic in their sound reproduction. Cartridges in my book to consider would be: Ortofon 2m series (there are 4 models, all use the same body which requires a 2mm shim) Goldring 2000 series (again, 4 models again 2mm shim) Grado Prestige Gold (a peach) It sounds like you have more than one Rega dealer around you which is very unusual, so the chances are that you should be able to get good service since that's all they can trade on. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8235 Registered: Feb-05 | The Ortofon's in your price are a bit less noisy but they are also brighter and not in a good sense. I like the Goldrings however you once again wind up in a price range that's over budget for one of the better ones. They do however track better than the Rega's or the Ortofon's. I don't believe that your dealers carry Goldring or Grado...leaving you with Rega and Ortofon and I would choose the former. Grado's sound wonderful but tend to tracking not well either. The better the Grado the better they track and the one Frank mentions is among the better ones...however it doesn't track well enough for me to own. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3400 Registered: Sep-04 | Whaaat? What are you playing that the Grado, Goldrings or Ortofons can't track for goodness sake? Also, he said the third dealer fired a bunch of cartridges at him... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8237 Registered: Feb-05 | The third dealer must have been online because we have no other Rega dealer here. I find that the Goldrings do track...you must have missed that part. Grado's are notorious in these parts for not tracking inner grooves well. My experience with the Ortofon Red and Blue is that they track better than Grado's but not well enough to satisfy me. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8238 Registered: Feb-05 | Probably haven't mentioned, perhaps because it's not relevant, that Dan is great guy who lives just a few miles from me and who has a standing invitation to my home anytime (and he has been here). Kinda how I know his dealers. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13137 Registered: May-04 | . I sold Grados and Ortofons for decades and have used either an Ortofon or a Grado as my main cartridge for the last thirty five years - most of that time they were installed in an RB300. I can't recall anyone ever bringing back a budget Grado (not even the $19.95 model) due to tracking problems. And I have ever had an issue with the higher priced Grados in my system. Art, quite honestly, sometimes you come uo with the strangest things that you say are well known in your part of the US. It must be that Northern breeze. If someone came back and said their Grado didn't track well at any point on the disc, I'd get out the protractor and see how they had misadjusted it. Grados can sometimes hum at the inner grooves on a Rega, though this issue should have been resoloved about ten years ago. But tracking has neven been a Grado downfall and they actually track better - i.e. have higher compliance - than most other cartridges in their price range. If the Grado has an issue with tracking, I would guess it is due to too much compliance in the cartridge paired with an arm whose bearings are not of the highest quality. That would rule out the Rega arms. (I know, Art, you just know what you know. But I do believe Frank and I have more experience in this one area. I simply do not remember anyone complaining of tracking problems with any Grado.) Ortofons also share the induced magnet motor type of the Grados which provides them with similarly high compliance for their price. Both the Ortofons and the Grados have, in my exprience, a smooth, reasonably neutral sound that is well balanced to go along with the equipment they might typically be partnered with. I haven't heard a Goldring since the 1970's so I have nothing to say about their character other than they have been a perrenial budget favorite. With a proper shim under the base of the Rega arm any of these cartridges should be a good choice with the Rega's fairly responsive midrange and good tracking abilities. (Get the midrange right before anything else, that is where 90% of the music resides.) You just need to read about the house sound of each manufacturer and make your decision based upon what you feel will best complement your existing components. My suggestion is to never try to cover up problems by pairing, say, a "warm" cartridge with a "cool" amplifier or a "bright" speaker. You're only placing a BandAid on the problem wih that approach. Play to the strengths of each component and get the best of the system's qualities and not a poor rendition of its failings. My point in my first post has apparently been misunderstood. Any of the proposed cartridges will work in a Rega arm and they all have their strong points to consider. My point was any dealer who just starts placing a cartridge in a Rega without informing you of the Rega's limitations concerning VTA and therefore cartridge selection is not doing you a favor. This would be a dealer I would shy away from when purchasing a new turntabe. They have opinions that might match Rega's but, as has been pointed out, Rega is in the minority when it comes to this issue. VTA matters. It doesn't matter as much with a simple elliptical stylus profile as it does when you get into the more exotic line contact styli, but it matters and can make a good system sound uninvolving and muddy or harsh and thin when it is not right. My advice would be, if the dealer isn't willing to explain this to you, then move on to another dealer. http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8244 Registered: Feb-05 | Jan if you mistook what I said about the Grado's as actually meaning that there is a regional difference relative to knowledge about that specific cartridge then you are more of a literalist than I would have thought. However my experience with the cartridges that I shared is also shared by a number of other folks. On forums where the Grado's are very popoluar one of the biggest complaints is tracking. Certainly Jan and Frank have more experince with turntables and alignment than I do, however that doesn't negate the comments I've read and heard first hand from other folks who have as much experience as either of them and who's experiences are similar to mine. I'm not going to argue about my experiences or the experiences of the people I know...no reason to. In the end buy whatever cartridge suits you and your needs Dan. Might want to check with your local Grado dealer Dan...that would be Jim at NWAL. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13138 Registered: May-04 | . How could so many people be wrong while Frank and I are right? I'm not a literalist, Art, but that did supply the end of the day chuckle. Like I said, sometimes I just can't believe what you come up with based on "your experience" and that of all the people you know. Have you personally tried a Grado, Art? I've never personally encounterd nor have I heard of "inner groove" tracking problems with a Grado and, like Frank, I would like to know just what you're playing that a Grado of any variety cannot track. I just don't believe it is the cartridge that is the cause of the problem. What tonearms are these complainers using with which Grado? . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8245 Registered: Feb-05 | I've owned 2 Grado's and 2 Ortofon's Jan. Perhaps my experience with the Goldring cartridges and the Dynavector has jaded me toward the Grado's and Ortofon's. The Ortofon tracked far better than my Grado Blue or Red. I preferred the sound of the Grado's but couldn't stand how many records they wouldn't track compared to the Goldring and Dynavector cartridges. Same can be said of the Rega which loses composure too often for me. I don't want to listen to distortion when I could be listening to music. I almost gave away some records after I owned the Grado and Rega cartridges...decided to keep 'em and thank goodness I did the Dynavector and later the Goldring both tracked 'em wonderfully. I once again was seduced by Grado and once again it did not track as well as I would have liked and I sold it. Both dealers that I've used also say that the Grado's are not great trackers...and boy do they have experience. One of them has been in the biz for 40 years..there are a number of dealers and folks with years of experience on other forums that I'm a member of who state the same thing...again it's not important enough for me to go on and on about...I'll stick with trusting my experience and the experience of people I know and have faith in and that's gonna be good enough for me. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8246 Registered: Feb-05 | Let me add that I do respect both your expertise Jan and Frank's so I will not close the door on Grado for a second table that I get in my office as I really like their sound. Since you guys also have alot of experience with Grado's and don't appear to have tracking issues with them perhaps ya'll could help me get past them next go 'round. |
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Bronze Member Username: DanoncPost Number: 12 Registered: Oct-07 | Well, now I'm really confused. The dealer that I really want to work with only sells Rega and Dynavector and obiously, Dynavector is way out of my budget. I don't have any problems going with a Grado Gold but have read on this forum that there can be hum problems with Rega tables/arms and Grado cartridges. I have also read that the Rega Bias is a fairly noisy (surface noise) cartridge, so I'm not really sure what to do. Should I consider a different table? |
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Bronze Member Username: DanoncPost Number: 13 Registered: Oct-07 | Oh, I should also add that the third dealer was an online dealer (Art was correct) which I really would prefer not to buy from. Maybe a better way to phrase the question would have been " I have about $700 to spend on a table and cartridge - any suggestions?" But, I was leaning toward a P2. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8247 Registered: Feb-05 | First of all the dealer you are talking about sells Ortofon as well if it's the one I'm thinking of. The Grado hum problem with Rega's is a thing of the past. With a new Rega and Grado that should not be a problem. Best bet is to go with the full Rega rig or buy the Rega table from Dale, and you can pick up a Grado either from Jim or Kurt at Echo (Jim would be the obvious choice here). I think Jeff and Tim at Bradford's still carry Goldring if you were interested in those. I think you could probably get the P2 and Elys at just about your budget from Dale...if you don't ask you won't know. If you want to go with Grado either Jim or Dale may set it up for you...it would likely cost but they are worth it. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2112 Registered: Jun-07 | Not that I should ever be giving any help on TT stuff. As I am useless in this regard.lol. When I went into the local store here called Just Hi Fi, I talked directly to the owner for about an hour or so. The owner is the original owner still from the early 80's. He sell's Rega,Linn,old Dual,NAD, and a few other higher end table brands. He sells Rega,Grado and Ortofon cartridges. Anyway, I went in there looking for a cartridge, a cheap one as my table is OK at best. He explained to me the differences that all the cartridges in my price range 100-200 made on his table at home. He claimed the Rega in my range is a lively sound but has a little more surface noise. He said the Grado is nice but the Ortofon was the way to go as it was the smoothest sounding with no floor noise at all. The Ortofon is probably too good for my table, but I have used it a total of 4 times so when I upgrade the table I will have the Ortofon to keep my busy for a while. I am enjoying the Ortofon. But again, my experience with others is next to none. Cheers. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11173 Registered: Dec-04 | Which cart Nick? Was it the red? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2113 Registered: Jun-07 | Yup, I bought the red. The guy took 50 dollars off for me too. I got it for 100 CDN, sealed. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8248 Registered: Feb-05 | Among the three the I like the Grado sound the best however you will hear more surface noise and it won't, in my experience, track as well as the Ortofon. The Rega would also have a lot of surface noise not be the best tracker. In the $100 range the Ortofon is perhaps the best...The Goldring Electra will actualy have less surface noise and track better than all three of them, however it's a bit bland sounding. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 323 Registered: Jun-08 | I have the Goldring Electra on my Goldring GR1.2 TT and I would not describe it as bland; however, I've not compared it to more pricey cartridges. I have heard that moving up one level above the Electra in the Goldring line provides very good bang for buck. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11176 Registered: Dec-04 | Art, thats quality feedback right there. Price dependant, and I dont do that very often, that Electra is competant and dependable. It is also cheap. These are good things. George, If you move out of the Electra and into an Ortifon products, it will be sideways, but probably good, move. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 324 Registered: Jun-08 | I love vinyl but am hesitant to deepen my investment. I don't buy used cartridges and therefore, will stick with mine probably until it's old and blunt and starts surfing on top of those grove. Either that or sell my TT with existing cartridge and move up to maybe a P3-24 but that's another story. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8249 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry George perhaps bland wasn't the best term...the Electra has less of it's own personality than say the Rega or the Grado and sounds more neutral. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 325 Registered: Jun-08 | I would take that as a negative and not a positive Art. Neutral is good. Unless you really love a specific sound, which is what tweeking/customizing is all about. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2114 Registered: Jun-07 | I am learning lots here. This is great. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 326 Registered: Jun-08 | ooops a missed a word. I meant to say I wouldn't take that as a negative because neutral is good. Nick - if you're interested in a cheap way to step up in TT, you could go with the Goldring GR1.2 which will give you the Electra cartridge and the TT is essentially a P2 nock-off. The GR1.2 is build by Rega for Goldring. Check out CAM (shipping is negotiable): http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/106525-goldring_gr12_turntable/ |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8250 Registered: Feb-05 | Other interesting budget cartrides that may work well with the RB250 arm are; Audio Technica AT440MLa Shelter 201 HO MC (very nice at $200) Benz MC20E2 HO MC There are a whole lotta options out there. Assuming Dan could get the P2 for under $500 all of the cartridges above would be within budget except the Benz which would just peak out of the budget by $50. The shelter is an exceptional buy at $200...highly underrated. The Audio Technica is a real favorite of rockers and again a pretty good buy can be had with it. The old ML version was notrious for being bright the Mla is much more friendly to the ears. Sumiko's Pearl is head and shoulders better than their Oyster and is recommended by alot of it's users. With all of the other options available I would skip it. Keep in mind all of these choices will be limited by Dan's phono stage in the Rotel integrated. Excellent little amp and a competent phono stage but not high end...same could be said for my Mira. More to ruminate on... |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3402 Registered: Sep-04 | Very interesting reading. Having played with the Grado Prestige Gold specifically on quite a few occasions I can confirm I never experienced end-of-side issues or tracking problems. However, I can certainly appreciate why people would shy away if there are accounts elsewhere which do not concur with my experience. I have not tried the Silver and lower Grados. The Ortofon 2m Red is a very good cartridge for the money. My only query is whether it's better than the Goldring 2100. I just don't know since I haven't tried it. The Ortofon Red is lively, enjoyable, very engaging and less noisy than the Bias (well, almost anything is). It's a good match for the P2. I am not a fan of the Goldring Electra, it's just not very engaging. You could class this as neutral to a fault, but if it doesn't particularly engage what's the point? The 2000 series is in a different ballpark in this respect - and it particularly seems to suit the Rega decks. All that said, the easiest solution is of course a Rega cartridge, and although they aren't very much to my taste because of their noise, they are engaging to listen to. |