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New member Username: CohifiPost Number: 1 Registered: Nov-08 | Hey Guys, I am upgrading my system and need some advice on a good amp to pair with what I already have. Currently my set up is as follows: Receiver: Denon 2808ci Speakers: All B&W Center: htm61 Fronts: 683 Sides: 601s3 Backs: 602s3 Sub: SVS PB10-ISD I will be moving soon, so room size will change, but lets say it is for a medium to large rectangular room. Eventually I will probably go to a pre-amp instead of the receiver. I have been looking at the new Rotel RSP '" 1570. Things I want in an amp: 7 channels more than 100w and preferable 200w neutral or warm sounding (not bright) - the most important feature to me good soundstaging Less than $4000 prefer than than $2500. The options that I have come up with are: Rotel RMB '" 1077, Seems to be good reviews for a D-class amp. I like that it runs cool and quiet. Hear it can be bright, especially paired with the B&Ws. Some seem not to like the B&W, Rotel combination. Gemstone Blue Diamond 7- has been getting great reviews. Haven't talk to anyone that has heard one in person. Probably my number one choice right now. NAD '" M25 - Again, gets great reviews. Concerned about the fan noise and reliability (fans often break). However, the sound is supposed be to be top-notch. Arcam FMJ P7 used - On the high side of my budget, but can find them used. That is it for right now. Thanks for your advice in advance. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1716 Registered: Feb-07 | http://outlawaudio.com/products/7200.html |
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New member Username: CohifiPost Number: 2 Registered: Nov-08 | David thanks for your suggestion. I have read some reviews and they have not been as positive as the other amps I listed. Have you heard the amp? Do you like Outlaw amps? Also, I have thought about doing a combo 5 ch and 2 ch. Maybe the Anthem or even a Macintosh 5 with some other 2. If anyone has heard any of these amps or the ones I listed above. I would really like to hear your impressions. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1717 Registered: Feb-07 | I used to own the Outlaw M-2200. It's a solid piece of gear. I actually wished I never sold it. I haven't heard the 7200, but I've read lots of positive reviews. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 281 Registered: Jun-08 | Dave, a pair of Outlaw M-2200 are just $674 U.S. with free ground shipping (I'm sure not to Canada) and they deliver 300w/ch into 4ohms. Sounds like a real deal. I wonder what they would cost ya to Canada, all-in, duty and all? Hmmm. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1718 Registered: Feb-07 | It's expensive George. I ordered one 2200, and the free shipping only covers the continental US. So add about 50 bucks per unit on for shipping. Then add about 100 bucks per units for duties. That being said, they're still worth it, IMHO. |
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Bronze Member Username: SnapcatPost Number: 79 Registered: Oct-07 | Jason, I currently have 683's and Bryston pre/amp for 2 ch combined with a Denon receiver driving 2 B&W rears and an Outlaw 2200 driving the B&W center. Before I arrived at this setup, I had a Rotel 1095 amp with the Denon as pre/surround processor. I was never happy with the Denon/Rotel combo for music. Great for movies. That combo had very little liquidity and rhythm to my ears. I could never get a good image between the speakers in 2 channel, just independent sounds from each speaker (very detailed but not involving). I also had a NAD C372 driving the 683's and a Rega Apollo as source. I was much happier with that setup for 2 ch and 5 ch music (combined with the Denon) than the Denon/Rotel combo for music. However, I have heard the Rotel pre/amp combos with B&W in the store and it was much nicer. My opinion is that the Denon has a crappy preamp for music. Oh yeah, the Outlaw 2200 as a center amp seems much more powerful than the Rotel 1095 center amp. You should decide if music or movies is more important. If movies, then get a big Rotel or Outlaw amp and you'll probably be happy. If music, then consider focusing on a 2 channel setup (maybe a good integrated) or get a different surround processor and an amp. Also, consider your music source. In other words, as I have seen advised here before, an amp alone will likely not bring about musical nirvana. Figure out your desired end state for the whole setup. My 2 cents. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1719 Registered: Feb-07 | I was using a 2200 to drive my center channel and it was great for the task. |
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New member Username: FhsunPost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-08 | Snapcat, I have B&W 683 front speakers like you and Jason, currently driving them with Rotel RMB-1075 (120x5). Can you comment more on the Rotel pre/amp and B&W combo that you've heard in the store? Thanks. Frank |
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Bronze Member Username: SnapcatPost Number: 81 Registered: Oct-07 | Frank, It's been a while (about a year) since I've heard the Rotel 1072 cdp, 1068 processor, and 1095 amp at a dealer thru the 603S3's and the CM7's (2 channel only). Through both speaker pairs, I remember a good image between the speakers with better imaging beyond the speakers with the CM7's. I don't remember many details beyond that - I listened to several things that day. I do remember that I could not get that imaging at home once I purchased the 1095 and used a Denon AV receiver as the preamp (with a cheap Denon DVD player as transport and the AVR DACs). It seemed there was not much life to the music with my home setup at the time unless I played it very loud. It also seems that the all Rotel combo was more dynamic. That's about all I can remember... |
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New member Username: FhsunPost Number: 5 Registered: Nov-08 | Thanks Snapcat, appreciate it! I'm feeling that when I play certain CD's they can be quite sibilant(Kenny G, Mariah Carey). I don't know if it's the source, speakers, or electronics? I have trouble listening to the whole CD. When I listen to other jazz CD it's okay. I've read that Rotels have good imaging and resolution but can be very clinical and a bit cold (right of neutral?). If that's the case perhaps I can remedy the situation by pairing the Rotel amp with something on the other end of the spectrum, or would I just be mucking things up? The best thing for me to do is of course audition some of the combination but it has been very difficult to find the right shop with the right combination of components. Frank |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3336 Registered: Sep-04 | Jason, First of all, I'd do nothing until you've moved! You cannot know what environment you're going into next and it may be that you simply won't be able to take advantage of your current speakers or that you may have to re-think the complete system strategy. Second of all, if you have the space, you should place the more capable 602s as your surrounds and the 601s as your back speakers. The surrounds are the more important speakers of the pair. The back speakers are only used for ambient effects and in Dolby Ex and DTS-ES scenarios. Rotel and B&W are quite closely aligned since they're actually the same company as far as I know so they should work well together. I have used my Arcam FMJ AV9/P7 for some years and can attest to its capability. The P7 is very powerful, as well it should be given the weight! It's also pretty good in music terms, certainly one of the very best surround solutions for music I have heard. Arcam have announced the new AVR600 receiver which is based on the P7, both in chassis and in power amp design in the next couple of weeks or so. I'm not sure if it'll come in under your $4000, but if so, it would have to be high on your list since it includes the blu-ray specification audio codecs. But you REALLY shouldn't do anything until you move! Frank. |
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New member Username: CohifiPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-08 | In a crazy turn of events. I traded in my 683s and got 703s this weekend, with a htm7 center. This was something I did not intend on doing, but a store in Denver, was selling a 3 month old used pair of 703s for under $2000 and they gave me full price on the 683s. For $500 dollars I like them a lot better. Also, the htm7 sounds a lot better than the htm61 to me (They was only a $30 difference, because the 700 series is being discontinued). With this new set up, I plan on getting a McIntosh MC 205 to run the centers and surrounds and a McIntosh MC 252 for the fronts or just go for the MC207. I heard these this weekend and was blow away by them. I will have to have to find a used pair to stay within by budget, but they seem to be available. Then I will need to upgrade my receiver to a pre-amp and I will be all set. Thanks a lot for your info. It was very helpful. |
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New member Username: FhsunPost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-08 | "used pair of 703s for under $2000 and they gave me full price on the 683s." Wow, that's a screaming deal! You've saved over $1300 and you got FULL CREDIT for the 683! You've upgraded to speakers twice in value for $500. Well done!! |
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New member Username: CohifiPost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-08 | Yep, that is why I had to jump on it. I guess my amp project will have to wait for a few months. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11097 Registered: Dec-04 | A bit at a time, JK. Those speakers will love Mac power (most do). The 7 and 8 series are often paired with Classe produsct (see my profile) and that, my friend is a very good match indeed. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1731 Registered: Feb-07 | "I've read that Rotels have good imaging and resolution but can be very clinical and a bit cold" That's what I've found too, but with the right speakers these attributes can be quite good. |
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New member Username: FhsunPost Number: 7 Registered: Nov-08 | Hmmm...I have B&W 683's. Would they be considered the right speakers to go with Rotel attributes? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1733 Registered: Feb-07 | I dunno fs, I've never owned B&Ws. I did find the Rotel/Totem pairing pretty darned good. To mean, the Totem signature sound is neutral, maybe even leaning towards warm, and very smooth. I tried out the Rotel once with my Monitor Audio RS6, and the sound was harsh and fatiguing. Maybe someone else on here can comment on the B&Ws? |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 289 Registered: Jun-08 | The Rotel's from what I've heard are crisp and clean, some say on the brighter side of neutral. The B&W are on the warmer side of neutral from my listening experience. Many dealers pair up Rotel and B&W with good success. In fact, Rotel and B&W are the same company. Just take a look at the Rotel catalogue on their site and you'll see them pair /display their electronics with B&W. So the logical conclusion would be that B&W would pair with Rotel for the general consumer, that's the way it's marketed but you need to listen for yourself; however, it's always good to know that you're moving in the right direction. |
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Bronze Member Username: SnapcatPost Number: 82 Registered: Oct-07 | Great find Jason! I expect you will like the Mac combo (or Classe as Nuck suggests). Fs, The all Rotel setup should work nicely with 600 series B&W. They were designed to go together. Not sure about the sibilance thing. Could be source, cables or pre/amp combo. You should try to listen to the combo you think you want even if it means waiting and taking a trip later. |
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New member Username: CohifiPost Number: 5 Registered: Nov-08 | FS, Sorry I didn't see your post, but I would agree with George. The combo sounded good, but not amazing. With the B&W being a slightly warm speaker and the Rotels being slightly bright, you get a good neutral sound. I prefer a slightly warm sound, so I did not like it the best of what I heard, but that is just me. I heard the 600 and 700 series with the 1077. Again for the money it is a good sound, but for a little more you can have a great sound (Mac or Classe used). That is what I heard. |
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New member Username: FhsunPost Number: 8 Registered: Nov-08 | Thanks guys. I'm trying my best to audition the pre/pros I'm interested in but it has been exceedingly difficult to find dealers with the targeted components hooked up for listening. I'll be really lucky if I find larger dealers that have components hooked up on switch boxes but with the smaller, individual dealers it has been very tough because they hook everything up manually. No one is exceedingly interested to re-wire several components when I'm only there to spend a couple of thousands--assuming if they even have the exact targeted components to begin with. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3350 Registered: Sep-04 | Jason, 703s are MUCH better than 683s. They're also much better built. Similar to 683s, they require quite a bit of space around them in order not to sound congested and not to have too much bass. Look at a minimum of 24" from back and side walls. Unfortunately, the 700 series did not sell well for B&W. They were truly beautifully made and sounded pretty darned good, but the free space requirements didn't help I think. I ahve very fond memories of the 703. Genuinely good speaker - and that amazing midrange unit was just a peach! All that said, they are much more demanding than the 683s, not just in terms of power but also in terms of resolution. If your electronics are limited in this respect (and I'm talking your sources too, such as CD and DVD players) they will mercilessly reveal that! Minimum CD player is a Rega Saturn, Naim CD5x or Bryston BCD-1 in my view. Power-wise, you need a fair bit but it also needs to be quality. 60 Mac watts will be far better than 180 NAD watts typically. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11107 Registered: Dec-04 | 200 Classe watts are available, shipped from Canada! shameless sales promotion |