Not been on here for a while, since you all helped me choose my current system. Very grateful for the help.
Ok, current system is
Cursa3 Maia3 Apollo CD Player Totem Sttafs Naim nac5 speaker cable Chord Chorus interconnects
I have ben listening my system for the last 9 months or so and been loving it. I know want to move it on a stage and get the last 5% out of it.
I am finding the sound a little closed in at times and unemotional/ lively i.e. gladiator battle track. I have spoken to a few local hifi shops and they suggest chaging the Sttafs to a speak that is more open and easier to drive. The suggestion is that the Sttafs are a little closed in their presentation and a bit slow. I could also go for the r5s or r7s but not sure if thats a backwards move??? I must say the Sttafs are nice and I like the blance of the sound although the bass can dominate a bit and be ponderous at times. Its almost like I want the same spaker but more open an lively with a bigger soundstage and more controlled bass.
Other options that spring to mind are to change the source for the Saturn, or 2xExons? This would also improve things but may still leave me with the closed in sound from the Totems.
Any advice would be appreciated before I start on the long winter demoing session!!
All the suggestions you mention make sense. Improving the source with a Saturn (or competitor) should make a big difference in pace and timing. Replacing the Sttafs with something else (Hawks come to mind actually) will change the sound dramatically since the speakers are the ultimate voice (if not the control).
I must admit to not being a big Sttaf fan so I can see where the dealers are coming from. However, if you improved the speakers, I am concerned you may just end up revealing the shortcomings on the source front because of the relatively back-heavy system you would have built.
I would not expect Exxons to make a dramatic improvement to the system.
I'm more inclined to improve the front end actually. Generally speaking you've been loving the system as it is. This says that you like the voice of the Sttafs. Some extra grip, control and pace is in order and the best place to effect that is in the source department. Consider the Saturn, Naim CD5X and Bryston BCD-1 as the most likely candidates in this system.
Leftfield suggestion. Get a dealer to lend you some Chord Anthem2. You could be surprised...
I don't seem to have a problem with my Apollo sounding closed in at all. Wierd. This is just me of course, and any of the sources Frank mentioned would definitely be an improvement either way.
I have never heard the Sttafs personally, but could the boomy sound be caused by the room? I am guessing you have played with speaker placement, and room dampening already?
"...Sttafs to a speak that is more open and easier to drive..."
Hmmmm, your Rega gear has more than enough oomph to drive the Sttafs. As for them being slow or ponderous, how close to the wall and/or corners are they?
Mine are about 3 feet from the back wall and are neutral and responsive.
I should probably add at this point that there is nothing wrong with the system I have and I am being very hyper critical in my comments regarding the system.
Most people would be more than happy with the sound as am I, but just want to get that last 5 or so percent out of the components.
The Sttafs are placed about 2ft from the rear wall and 3ft from the sides. This is about the most I can get away with without the Mrs doing her nut.
I suppose what I am asking, on reflection, is given the components I have what change, if any, would need to be made to get them all t work at their maximum potential.
My view on this is that its either the source or the speakers at this point, but I it may be nothing.
What kind of music are you listening to. Any decent system will reveal how closed in and compressed most hard rock/metal albums are. I am sure this is not the case, but just throwing it out there.
I listen to all sorts. Dance sounds great and well recorded rock. Its the classical I have most problems with. Some of it is quite dramatic and you don't get that sense from it. Recording quality varies of course but the Gladiator soundtrack especially seems to get half there but not quite.
As Frank says, maybe changing the source will improve things
That's interesting. Classical is probably Rega's weakest music genre. Rega's presentation is relatively small, very well contained and cohesive but still relatively small. By its nature, classical music has a big presentation (unless you're talking chamber orchestras which should sound great on the Rega), expansive with dramatic scale. This isn't the kind of thing that comes naturally to the Rega presentation. It is a strength of the Totem speakers however, which have the ability to project scale from small boxes.
I must say I'm not sure what I'd do in this situation. Most of what you play is great with one genre being let down. You could increase the scale and drama by changing the CD player (that's the weakest link in the chain anyway). You could go to the Saturn which does add to the drama and scale on top of the good things of the Apollo, while remaining a Rega in fundamental presentation, bthere are others (mentioned earlier) which may give you a slightly different presentation that suits all the genres you wish to play.
Incidentally, what kind of rack do you have your system on? This does make a difference...
If you like the sound but want to get a little more, my thinking that changing the cables might get what you are looking for. You can try Analysis Plus, Van den hul, Kimber,...If you don't like them, you can resell them on AG.
I have the system on an Apollo glass rack with wood legs. The equipment is then on granite slabs with rubber feet.
Speakers are on granite slabs also as the spikes have a hard time getting into the carpet.
It is interesting what you say about classical being Rega's weak point as I did not know that. Its reassuring in a way as it puts things into perspective and reassures me that I am not mad.
Changing from Chameleon Silver Plus to the Chorus made a huge difference, so it could be using the Anthem2 for the apollo makes that jump again. Its definately alot better with the Chorus but the temptation is to turn the screw one more turn to make all the genres strong. That or change the whole kit!!!! (oh no....not again!!)
Yep, I like the sound of the Chord cables so could go one notch up gain and see what happens. IMO nothing is going to beat the Naim nac5 speaker cable with the Rega
Do you have original or current Chorus? Original Chorus was a twisted pair underneath an external sheath, and quite flexible. Current Chorus is very different. It has none of the twists and underneath it's a microwave transmission cable, very stiff (can't really bend it easily).
The earlier cable had a lot of weight and clarity but could be a touch slow. The weight really helped the Rega give a bit more drama and scale which is why it worked so well. The later cable is leaner but allows through more resolution. I'm not 100% convinced that going to Anthem 2 (which also uses microwave cable) is necessarily the right solution here. I think you should try a few different CD players first if possible.
If you want open,smooth,detailed, and dramatic in a CDP. Have a listen to the Bryston CDP. It is still the best I have heard. Expensive though. But hey, if you want that extra 5 percent you got to do what you got to do.lol. As far as keeping the synergy I would guess NAIM would be another good choice.
I can tell you that a tube pre amp such as the Vincent SA-T1 or PrimaLuna ProLogue Three Preamplifier; will warm up the sound and make it more emotionally involving.
I have both the Rega Apollo and Saturn, with the Butler TDB 2250, in that system. I use Cobalt Cables (interconnects and speaker wire) as well as Cobalt power chords.
But that's in my system and my Wharfedale Opus 2 speakers may be the wild card that pulls it all together, there.
Don't know how that would work with your gear combo and cables. But it may be worth auditioning a tube pre amp in your system. See if a dealer will let you take one home or if you have a friend who can lend you one.
The new production Mullard 12AX7 tubes are pretty nice and sweet. May help your system.
Have you given some thought to treating or otherwise changing the listening space? Nothing drastic or that would cause the wife to go nuts. The kind of 5% change you are seeking can easily be found in small room improvements.
Shari, have you tried mass loading your Sttaf's? I put about 8lbs of silica sand in each one of my Sttaf's as well as setting them on marble tiles with out the spikes. Made a difference for me.
Shari, after I took out the spikes I replaced them with little rubber bumpers because of the metal insert left behind. I didn't want them vibrating on the marble tiles. In my room with this speaker set up, the Totems sound very detailed and open with good bass. Also, I haven't received my Mira 3 yet so I'm still driving every thing with the HK AVR 445. I can't wait to replace the HK with the Mira 3.
Yeah, Will, share your thoughts. Can you substantiate it.
I've been looking into a pair of speakers for my 2ch and heard the Sttafs. With the right power they sound very good in my opinion. Is your opinion based on the fact that they can at some times be finicky with placement and setup?
I would have a word with a dealer and try and get a pair of exon on home dem. They are not just a beefed up maia. It could be that the extra authority and power they have it what is needed to push the speakers into behaving as you want. I was surprised at they change when I moved to Exon.
If that does not work, then its look at speakers, some will push out more scale and drama than the totem's. Just keep in mind that you may get that sense of drama and space of classical stuff and find that Jazz has lost some of its edge, and vocal presentation/presence have gone down a tad.
All Hi-Fi has compromises, the trick is finding the one that meets your needs.
Have a listen to some Neats and spendors hung on the end of Rega boxes. Two very different sounds emerge.
Totems generally suffer from an under developed bass response and a cloudy midrange. High end is soft but sweet. Is that sufficient elucidation? As a self-proclaimed "goldenear" I would have thought you had figured that out for yourself.
Will, have you ever hear a Totem speaker? Because when I hear you say Totems have under developed bass and cloudy midrange, it leads me to believe you have no idea what you are talking about and have never heard a Totem speaker. Or maybe that "golden ear" isn't so golden.
Shari, do your self a favor and don't ask Will for any more advice.
I was being ironic as my Totems bass is just about right and the mid band is very good and treble is fantastic.
Now the Chord Chorus have had time to bed in, the system sound a hell of alot better. Its just the classical music that is not as good as the other genres, but then its all relative.
Like I said at the beginning its the last 5% I want and I think I have found at least a couple with the change in interconnects and will probably find the remainder with a CD player change.
I thank all those that have given me positive advice and its always great to get good advice from fellow hifi lovers
To each his/her own. If you like your Totems, it shouldn't matter what anyone in this forum thinks. I have heard every model and I don't like them. Maybe acceptable for classical but definitely not for jazz. You guys can scream and call names all you want. I have noticed that is your modus operandi when you disagree with a post. Won't make me like Totems any more.
I understand your view and you are right everyone has their own taste, but to dismiss a product without offering any alternative suggestions is not very positive.
Its not a competition and people come on here for positive advise, not just to have their kit rubbished.
So being positive.......what would your other options be, or are you just going to be provocative for the sake of it?
I also understand we all have our own likes and dislikes about a product, but to say Totem speakers have under developed bass is a factual statement. The fact is Totems develop a lot of bass, whether you like that or not, that is your prerogative. So Will, with comments like that, you lack credibility on this forum.
So Dale why don't you like Totem speakers? You do know that the guy who is behind Totem is a jazz lover and designs with jazz in mind right?
Doesn't matter though we all have preferences. I like Rega speakers and Frank does not...I like Totem's and you do not...I don't like Focal's and a lot of people do...it's all relative to each of our frame's of reference I suppose.
Will, if you have any knowledge about audio then you know that Totem and Bose are not comparables. If on the other hand you are a bass junkie then I agree that some of the Totem models may not be to your liking but that would not be all. There are always sacrifices and the Totems seem to do what they are designed to do well - that they suck - well maybe that might be in your opinion but what are you comparing them to, is the question?
Totem Sttaf frequency response: <39Hz to 22kHz. Yeah real limited. When I heard these speakers in the store they had maybe half the bass extention that they have in my house. Proper placement and environment are important. Had a friend from work over the other night and he wanted to know where the sub was hiding. He was amazed at the bass extension.
"Like I said, Totems bass output is limited. Obviously you guys like that. Some people like Bose. But they suck also."
Will, there is another comment which lacks credibility. I think what's "obvious" is that you have no idea what what hell you are talking about. Take your BS else where.}
Dale (Will and Jimmy are Dale Wiley as was his original name here) it sounds like you've never heard properly setup Totem speakers. Give it a try and you will find the bass response more than adequate.
"Totem Sttaf frequency response: <39Hz to 22kHz" Steve Proves my point in that low range is 39 not 20. Further, that depending on set up, bass extension sucks.
Guess Steve doesn't realize that 20-20,000 is the theoretical limit of human hearing and speakers are frequently judged on how close they come to that limit. And he calls me a clown? Looks like the joke is on him.
Will Smith - you're giving us Canadians a bad name. Will must be one of the rare one's that lives in igloos and needs sub-sonic bass to hear through his frozen ears. Seriously Will - name some speakers that are reasonably affordable like the Sttafs that provide an anechoic 20 - 20,000 freq. response?
It does make perfect sense yes, ands I do and will audition until I find the right combination that I like, but its good to have tried and tested opinions.
I am not sure Will actually knows what he likes so lets close this thread and do something more useful
I understand the 20Hz to 20kHz, but we are talking a small speaker with one 5.5" driver delivering as low as 39Hz. This speaker will deliver better bass response than a lot of larger speakers with multiple drivers. I don't expect a speaker without a subwoofer in it to extend to the 20Hz range. I can't believe I'm responding again.
Wiley's opinion sucks. HIS CDP sucks. His speakers suck. His amp sucks. His hearing sucks.
Wiley, you remind me of an over hyper 15 year old that just posts to get a rise out of people. You suck dumb dumb. You still didn't tell us what speakers you have??? Doesn't matter, your system sucks.
I had a 200 dollar crap sub from BestCrap years back that claimed it went down to 22hz range, and it was terrible. Slow, sloppy, non-realistic sound. Kinda like the words that come out of Wiley's mouth.
"However, this hasn't stopped you from telling us all what "sucks"'. Mitchell For once, you are right. This moment should be recorded for posterity since it is unlikey to recur.
This week (hopefully) going to demo some kit. I am going to keep the cursa/maia and demo
Rega R5 and R7 (not sure if R5 will be going backwards??)
ProAc Studio 140
Rega Saturn
I will try all the combo's including my speakers and see what sounds best. My new local dealer likes the ProAcs with the Rega, but there is a cheap pair of R7s going as well. Mind you may dominate the room a bit as its 6mx4m so not sure if they would be too big.
I agree with Steve. Sounds like fun. Can't wait to hear your thoughts. I don't think the R5's would be taking a step back. Although I have not heard the Staffs, the R5's are a damn good speaker.
The R5's are just different than the Totem's...it's a lateral move. The R7's are IMO a big step up. I just put my R5's back in the main system this weekend am blown away...like falling in love again. Tweaked the placement and they are just great for my needs...I really like Rega speakers but they really come from a different place than the the Totem's.
BTW I also had ProAc Studio series speakers...like them as well. Of the ones you've listed the R7's are my fav...happy listening and look forward to your impressions.
The issue for me is whether the R7 will work in a 6mx4m room (I am down the long wall) and whether it will give me the fast, open, big and detailed sound I am after. IMHO the kit at the moment is not any of these things.
In the past I had the Cyrus 7 kit with pre, 2x power amps and PMC FB1s and that was a great sound, so trying to get somewhere near that.
I personally find the Rega gear Crisp and with toe tapping emotion, but in a small scale. Its a very packaged sound. It is not a 'big' sound Shari, which sounds like is your problem. The PMC speakers you had, now that's a big sound stage. Huge in fact.
Take a look at Audio Physic speakers. They may be exactly what you're looking for. I was looking into PMCs and Totems when I came across Audio Physic. They're not a heavily advertised or reviewed speaker. When they're reviewed, they're highly praised. I think they're a lot more readily available in Europe (being German made) than they are here.
The Apollo Cursa Maia will never give you the same sense of scale of your previous Cyrus kit. Of course, the Cyrus could never rock and roll like the Regas do, so that's the compromise...
You <i>can</i> get more scale from the Rega of course, but then you may lose some of that coherence and drive that you bought it for in the first place.
Just thought I would update you on progress. After alot of thought and demoing, I have completely moved away from Rega as it just wasn't moving me in the way I wanted. In the end I picked up the following
Cyrus cd8x, psx-r, prevs2, 2x smartpowers.
I did couple origonally with PMC FB1+'s but have just changed to ProAc D15s which give me the scale and smoothness that I want without loosing the excitement and subtlety. At the moment the sytem runs on Chord Chorus and Rumor 4, but my Kimber 8TC and Crystal Cu arrive tomorrow which I am hoping will improve things even further.
I must say, its a major move away from Rega, but this system sound great.
They are absolutely NOT overrated. Rega make fantastic gear. The sound is a required taste just like every other brand in the Hi Fi industry. Cyrus also make very nice stuff. Congratulations on the new purchases Shari.
Because besides all the drivel he espouses on this forum he's actually a pretty good actor. Just watched "iRobot" the other day (in Blu-ray) and he was actually pretty good.
Shari, that is a major move away from the Rega indeed! I'm sure the coffers are empty at the moment but if you get the opportunity, the CD8x can be upgraded to the CD8SE (I hope you got the CD8x for a reasonable discount as that is now discontinued). The SE is a major update from Cyrus which greatly enhances the player's timing and pace so you could get a bit of that Rega excitement back by going down that route.
Yes got the CD8x for a very good price. I will upgrade eventually but Cyrus have just put their prices up for the upgrade to £588 which is a bit of a rich for me at the moment.
I am enjoying the Cyrus with the Proac D15s at the moment as they make the sound far more musical and less clinical. Just received the Kimber speaker cable in the post today, so its busy "burning in" at the moment (if you believe in that). Not sure about the Kimber interconnects though. They don't seem much different to my Chord Chorus. May send them back and go for some Missing Link cables instead as they supposed to be good.
Shari, I will be interestd to see how your cabling goes. It seems to me that such a new kit should have a chance to grow on you and run through your collection before making choices like that. But to each lad his own.
Listen to some music and ignore the cables, my friend.
I know Cyrus kit pretty well and know the sound I want, which I think I basically have. I needed new speaker cable as my Rumour is looking quite aold a tatty now and apparently the Kimber 8TC is a fairly neutral cable and suits Cyrus quite well. I have pretty good interconnects in the Chorus but thought I would try the Kimber ones. You get a 60 day trial period so its pretty risk free.
