TWEAK tweak TWEAK tweak
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1478 Registered: May-06 | Ever change something in your kit or TT that ended up changing everything you hear? I don't mean a significant upgrade which many of us have done (some more than others). I have done everything to my kit. I cannot believe the changes I put my gear and room through, but yet I am consistently improving my sound. Now I go off and due to incredible bad karma, switch away from my Linn Adikt MM cartridge to a Benz Micro entry level high output moving coil. Nobody could have prepared me for what would come next. I always felt that the Adikt was a great rock n' roll cart with excellent timing, slam, and drive. I still feel that way. What I was missing, unbeknown to me, was the musicality of my LPs. This new MC cartridge has awakened me to a whole new catharsis of sound. I have never heard the likes of blues legends, jazz, or orchestral like I have heard with this entry level cartridge. Granted I have picked some outstanding recordings but this is really a significant change in my TT's presentation. Yes I do feel like I am missing something from the Adikt, but nowhere near what I picked up from the Benz. I have now ordered a Benz Glider S High Output in attempt to further this new found musicality along and maybe getting back some of what I think I am missing from the Adikt. Now back to my opening question, has something like this occurred unexpectedly for you, and if so, please share. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3056 Registered: May-05 | The biggest surprise I've had came when I auditioned the Audio Physic Yara Bookshelves. It may be the only time I heard a piece of gear and thought it was perfect. I didn't hear a single flaw or limitation. To my ears, there weren't any compromises made. It was exactly what I was looking for. I initially heard it with a Mac 6900 and Rega Apollo. The dealer had a B60 on hand from a customer trade in, which he swapped in later in the audition. They're just as good at home as they were in the shop. They may not be perfect for everyone, but they're perfect for me. There's always better, but how much better and at what price? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3233 Registered: Sep-04 | Source first rulezzzz, Brother! Now you know it. unfortunately it keeps on happening as you improve the front end. The more you improve your turntable, arm, cartridge power supply, phono stage, the more you get out of the thing. And of course, if you're not careful you can screw it up totally by putting together components that just take a dislike to each other (no other way of putting it - there's no techniocal reason for the mismatch, it just happens). So enjoy this slippery slope you're on!  |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1479 Registered: May-06 | Thanks Frank, The Lingo power supply is in the offing. Price wise it will be in the offing for quite a while, but I will get there. An EKOS arm, not so sure, certainly not the newest one @ ~$5K USD. I may not want to ever upgrade from my current phono stage which is in my pre. Going there takes me into the next level up which is beyond what I want to do. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2014 Registered: Nov-05 | No, it's not Mike, be honest :-) Apart from some component or speaker upgrades I can't say I've had a tweak that has been so significent as what you experienced with the benz. Each (the ones I've stuck with) has bought a little more to the musical table, but never a smorgasboard. Maybe for sheer musical pleasure I'm where I want to be also. I haven't had a bout of upgraditis for a long time now. Nice reading of your enjoyment with the Benz. And nice to be able to go out and say you left the Benz at home. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1480 Registered: May-06 | M.R. One of the reasons I said not a significant upgrade, like for me moving from the Carver to the Mac, was the significance this change made for me relative to the measure of it. While I was changing from a MM cart to a moving coil, the sound presentation change to me was similar to that of my amp upgrade. I guess in fairness and to level set, I listen to my kit 10 - 15 hours a week so I am intimately familiar with its sound. So while some may find something as a nuance if they did something similar to me it is more along the lines of a departure. Does that make any sense to anyone but me? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10941 Registered: Dec-04 | It works for me Mike. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3057 Registered: May-05 | It makes perfect sense, Mike. I don't consider a phono cartridge a tweak, if that's what's being implied. I consider it a component. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2015 Registered: Nov-05 | Well you sure made it sound fairly significent Mike, and yes, I agree with Stu, a cartridge would be a component to me also. However, what you say makes sense, once you make sense of it. (grin) |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1481 Registered: May-06 | Hmmm, I never thought of it that way Stu, but now that you mention it I suspect there are a lot of folks here might agree. thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3235 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh yes! Given that my cartridge costs more than most people's systems, I definitely consider it a component... Also, going from an MM to an MC is a bit like moving from a valve amp to a solid state one (or vice versa, whichever is your poison). As you've identified already, there's usually a compromise associated with a change (you're missing some of the rhythmic ability of the Adikt, knowing the Benz presentation). It's a difficult road, in part thanks to the awkwardness presented by the market itself - it's not easy getting A/B demonstrations after all! If you do consider upgrades, also consider the Naim ones. Linn's Lingo has an advantage over the Naim Armageddon in that it can play 45s. The Armageddon is single speed only, but I find it more fluid and enjoyable. I really have problems with the metronomic tempo of the Lingo, though I'll admit that the newer LingoII is better in this respect than the original. As for the arm, the new EKOS SE is quite something, but again, the Naim ARO, being a completely different take (unipivot etc), is also a very interesting option. It's the same difference as with the power supplies. The Linn excels with power, slam and an almost teutonic grip and control. The Naim is far more fluid and homogenous, almost like it's not there. I prefer its rather less obvious presentation, but that's not to say the EKOS isn't a very persuasive performer. If you intend (in future) to go down the Linn route, then the obvious thing is to go for the new Keel subchassis. This works remarkably well with the EKOS - quite an eye (ear?) opener! If not, there are a couple of other arms of interest: Rega's RB1000 was designed with the LP12 in mind as I understand it. Roksan's Nima is meant to be a very sympathetic and natural match with the LP12 for a sensible (?) outlay. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3060 Registered: May-05 | I think a good part of the reason why the LP12 has been around for so long is the updates/upgrades that can be done to it. More systems have probably been built around LP12s than any other single component. If I correct, it started the source first movement. One of the best systems I've ever heard had a fully Naimed LP12 feeding it. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1482 Registered: May-06 | Frank, Most interesting observations, thank you for those insights. Yes, I am hoping the Benz Glider S cartridge gives me more than the Benz MC-20E is capable of. I do understand that there are traits a line has, if they manufacture with a sense of consistency, that no matter which Benz I employ there will still be something missing from what the Adikt presented. One of the keys for me generally not wanting to drift from Linn is the dealer's support for servicing, i.e. free tune up's every 18 mos. So while I may be saving in some areas I have to offset that with the service aspect in mind. As you may have guessed I would be intrigued by the Armagedon / ARO combo. (FWIW the Linn Dealer is also a Naim dealer.) I think power is my next area of concern with my LP12. The EKOs SE and Keel subchassis are priced above my consideration. There is a fellow who claims to be able to reproduce the Keel but I do not know how to do an A/B on the real Keel vesrus his (as you mentioned for carts above). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT%26item%3D 140268933558 I also do not know how Linn would not get into it with some type of patent protection or something. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10945 Registered: Dec-04 | Seems they did, Mike. The listing is gone. Poof! |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1483 Registered: May-06 | Here is some of what you would have seen on that link.... If you feel that $3,800.00 is outrageous for a piece of machined aluminum read on. I am an avid Linn LP12 fan and have owned several in the last 25 years, and when I heard the Keel was available I thought "It's about time" -- until I saw the price. The Keel is a substantial improvement over the stamped steel sub-chassis currently in your LP-12. The sonic improvements are well documented and reviewed so I won't get into them here, but the mechanics behind the Keel's design are very simple. I am a mechanical engineer and was able to get my hands on a Keel a few months ago and analyze its design. Although Linn would have you believe otherwise, there is nothing magical here nor are there any breakthroughs in design. The Keel is a direct replacement for the stamped steel sub-chassis; it is the same size weight and center of gravity. All of the benefits come from its structural rigidity. The pocket-and-rib design is very straight forward. The pockets vary in depth and the ribs vary in width preventing resonances from building while providing tremendous stiffness. Machining the sub-chassis and the arm board from a single piece of aluminum is another significant improvement. The original setup has two small wood screws that hold the pressed fiber arm board to the sub-chassis with very little structural integrity. Using these simple design parameters I was able to machine a sub-chassis and arm board that has all of the sonic improvements of Linn's Keel. The differences are two: the Linn Logo and the tone arm collar. A structural analysis showed that bolting the original collar to the aluminum arm board provided virtually the same rigidity as machining both from one piece. This allows the use of the tone arm collar that was designed and manufactured by the tone arm manufacturer and allows any tone arm that fits an LP12 to be used, where as the Keel will only take a Linn tone arm. The bearing pocket can be set up to mount either the original Linn bearing or the Cirkus bearing, so it can be installed in any LP12. Use this link http://www.linn.co.uk/files/c835acc4/LP12_SE_FINAL_e-brochure.pdf to download Linn's brochure showing pictures of the Keel. It is interesting to note that they talk about their machining methods in the sales literature, proving there aren't any design innovations in Keel. Just so you know, there isn't a machine shop worth its salt that introduces distortion in to the material being machined. All CNC machinists clamp from the edges. I machined two of these and have installed one on my LP12, the other is presented in this auction. I could go on and on about how it sounds in those lovely terms we audiophiles like to use when describing the sound of our systems. Instead I will make a simple promise. If you are not delighted in any way after 30 days of auditioning, just send it back and I will return every dime including shipping. If you think that only Linn can machine a flat, lightweight aluminum plate that is the same size and weight of the original sub-chassis, or you want the Linn logo, then this isn't for you. But if you want to get the increased performance the Keel has to offer without re-mortgaging, you may want to give it a listen...you have nothing to lose. I have the capability to do a production run of these so please let me know if you are interested and do not win the auction. I can be reached at greenstreetaudio@verizon.net if you have questions or comments. I would love to hear what you think even if you are not bidding. It will be shipped via UPS in the USA, please use the shipping calculator. I will ship anywhere in the world. Please email for shipping cost. Thank you. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3061 Registered: May-05 | Very interesting post/ad Mike. Linn has made/makes very few things that most people can comfortably afford. I'm no lawyer, but I think the guy is stealing 'intellectual property' or something like that. It probably took a lot of money to develope it. Every company has to make a profit, or they won't be around very long. Not that I think you're defending either party. Truth is, Linn over prices a lot of things. The only competitive priced things I can think of are the Katans, the Axis, and the Adikt. Niether one is a great value for the money IMO, but buyers could do a lot worse for the same amount. On a side note, I'd love to get an LP12. My vinyl collection has to grow a bit to justify one though. Used ones on Audiogon scare me a bit. There's a huge price range on them (depending on options), I have no idea which years were the best or worst, and have no idea how to set them up. I'd only buy from a Linn dealer, new or used. Maybe one day... |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1484 Registered: May-06 | Stu, If JV happens along you will soon understand how to buy a Linn. Newer would be better. Newer mid-level where you could move up to Lingo, EKOs, Keel, etc might be a good way to start. You are right, I am not promoting the fellow who reproduces the Keel. I have doubts regarding how it would A/B against the real deal. Any more and I will be rambling. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10957 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, you didn't tell me you were home alone/Culkin. I coulda been there a coupla times! Oh wait, maybe thats why... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13056 Registered: May-04 | . "Stu, If JV happens along you will soon understand how to buy a Linn. Newer would be better." I'd say that advice is true just because you'll have less to buy to bring the table up to modern status. The good news is you can take any LP12 and bring it to the top of the current line equivalent by rebuilding the table with the upgrades that have been introduced over the years. So a base line stock 1976 LP12 could become a 2008 LP12 equivalent and there won't be much other than cosmetic differences between that table and one fresh from the factory. That's an expensive way to buy a table (hmmm, I hear Johnny Cash singing about working in the Cadillac factory) and if you're thinking of buying a used LP12 it's best to let the other guy take the depreciation on the upgrade parts. If I were in the market for a used LP12, I'd simply decide where my price range bought the most table as far as upgrades and I wouldn't exceed my budget. You can update from any point with whichever table you can afford. Cosmetics can be brought to as-new condition so the mechanics are the important thing to consider. You can find a listing of Linn parts and upgrades by doing a bit of searching on the web. Various arms and upgrades have not had the staying power of some others but there really isn't a bad Linn part, just parts that have been superceded with time. As to good years, they were all the same years. One of Linn's strengths is consistency and there were no bad years for the LP12. Linn is not Jaguar. There were years when turntables were not as popular as 1976 - or even today - but Linn maintained the same cottage industry quality throughout as far as the LP12 is concerned. As I've discussed with Mike my objections to a less than full blown LP12 ($10k?) are mostly related to the fact you are trying to bring a product designed in the mid-1970's up to 2008 condition. My objection to a full blown LP12 is the final cost and the fact you are discarding many of the parts you paid good money to own. Upgradeability has a very real monetary cost. Take note that none of the other high end table manufacturers are building a product with the same ideas Linn still uses in their updated but unapologetically copied and improved upon original AR table from 1956. As I mentioned in another thread the audiophile community follows fads like a hungry puppy follows a hot dog, so there's nothing to say the fads won't eventually swing back toward the LP12's ideas. But, for now, the LP12 stands virtually alone in many of its rather costly features and the very expensive upgrades used to make that 1970's design competitive with the current fashions in table design. While the Linn offers excellent quality in many respects the LP12 remains a table with a definite sonic signature and as many decided weaknesses as strengths in certain regions of its performance. It requires an almost slavish devotion to all things Linn when it comes to ancillary parts. Everything in audio is a trade off so you'll have to decide where best to spend your money. A LP12 will never be a bad deal but it might not be your best deal IMO. . |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 309 Registered: Dec-07 | Jan, excellent post! I think you have provided some sound viewpoints that extend well beyond just the LP12. "...and if you're thinking of buying a used LP12 it's best to let the other guy take the depreciation on the upgrade parts. If I were in the market for a used LP12, I'd simply decide where my price range bought the most table as far as upgrades and I wouldn't exceed my budget." Good advice for anyone in the market for a used table, and quite obvious to anyone who has shopped more than casually for one. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 310 Registered: Dec-07 | Mike, small steps with big results are better than big steps with small results. Good luck with the Glider S. [Leave the $3,800 worth of aluminum for the defense jockeys to make airplane parts out of. They know how to waste money.] |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3063 Registered: May-05 | Jan, Thanks for your post. When the time comes to pursue an LP12, you, Frank, and Mike will be three of the most influential people in helping me decide on what I need. A gentleman at Audio Circle posted this - "I can't imagine anyone who loves music regreting buying a first class recordplayer." The thread was started by a person asking what better turntables give and if they're worth it. A lot of people had different opinions, but they all agreed with him. One person stated that's the main difference between a gear-head and a music lover. I couldn't agree more. A link to the thread if anyone's interested in the context to which the statements were made - http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60174.0 |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1489 Registered: May-06 | Thanks Neil, well stated! JV, that's what I'm talkin' about! See Stu, like I said, now you understand... |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3242 Registered: Sep-04 | Minor correction to Jan's post (!)... A 70s LP12 doesn't have the corner bracing introduced in the mid-80s (1985 if memory serves). So if you bought a 70s deck and wished to upgrade it, you'd need a new plinth, or effectively a new deck. So if you have the opportunity, buy one later than 1985. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13058 Registered: May-04 | . Yes, there are a few points along the evolutionary line of LP12's where the changes wrought in the next-in-line product would make it prohibitively expensive to upgrade from an older model. The LP12 is a bit of a mixed bag IMO. It can be upgraded from any point in production to any other point in production. The question always remains, is it worth it? The example I used with Mike the other day was trying to take parts changes/upgrades to my old 1972 Chevelle SS and bringing it up bit by bit to the level of the 2008 Cadillac CTS he's driving as a loaner. Obviously the simplicity of the Linn makes the comparison rather strained but I think most of us see the problems involved in updating old designs. Just the ability to build to considerably tigher tolerances today would make most mechanical devices from a few decades ago unreasonable choices for upgrades. Just where does "hand built" get trumped by "computer assembled" and vice versa? For me that's not an easy question to answer. There comes a point in evolutionary products where the process of evolution takes a leap forward and the changes are large enough to warrant a new product designation. The family resemblance exists between a base stock 1976 LP12 and a new 2008 LP12 but the differences are quite large. So, is it even wise for Linn to continue on with the LP12 designation when the two tables are not really similar beyond the basic layout of the design? A potential buyer must know what they are purchasing. I think it is is safe to say a base stock original LP12 still competes against many of its modern day contemporaries in simple musicality for the dollar spent. On the other hand the original Linn design has a far more obvious sonic signature than most 2008 tables and certainly the current LP12. Fortunately, the sound and value of the LP12 have been discussed thousands of times so a potential buyer should have little problem finding information to guide their choice. I would suspect and hope anyone buying a stock 1972 Chevelle SS or a 1976 LP12 would be buying for the vintage qualities and not in hopes of swapping parts for the rest of their life. A little knowledge and a lot of common sense go a long way here. . |
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