Mcintosh synergy

 

Bronze Member
Username: Mnr3

Post Number: 54
Registered: Jan-06
it probably makes more sense to post this in the speaker area, but there is so much traffic over there, and we already have a two recent mac threads, so here goes.
well, I bit the bullet and really threw my hat in for the kit mentioned in the previous thread: mc 2255 amp, c33 pre, and the speakers, also mac, the xrt 18. a little woofer damage on one driver (puncture wound on the surround, can be fixed). it's now hiding in my basement as I figure out how I'm gonna explain it. you all will understand. Not sure if Jan wants to elaborate on how these fit into the holy church of mac, but I think for the SS gear, it's pretty good (sought after, anyway), and I must say, at 250 wpc, is 10x more current than most of my stuff (I don't count the sony ht receiver). my question, besides perhaps some of the Vigne-epedia observations which I welcome, is trying to figure out what lines of speakers would have the best synergy with these .
obviously something with some power-handling capacity, though I don't listen at ear-bleed levels. would this be something that leans to "british sound"? (is it ok to throw a vague term like that out there?)
..I know there is the "what are you looking for" coming, and right now, it will have to be limited because first I have not really had a chance to figure out the sound yet (just a few sound checks, maybe an hour or so of listening with some small-ish wharfedales (the 7.2); I'll know more after I deploy the mac speakers and the whole kit. I think I could describe my as yet not fully developed taste as:
not a bass addict, preferring clean and tight to muddy and bloated (I prefer my sealed enclosure small infinity bookshelf pair from the late 80's to the larger Acoustic Research ported speakers of the early 90s)
anyway, it's really late, and I must be off, so will elaborate more tomorrow, but wanted to get the ball rolling.

peace, and hope everyone is able to stay out of the way of Ike or think about those who can't. (still a New Orleanian at heart, even though I'm up in the mid-west)
cheers,
Marvin
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3011
Registered: May-05
I say get it all working and find a very good source. With that gear, you'll definitely need one. A Mac CD player or DAC definitely comes to mind for obvious reasons.

I don't know if you've seen this page on the XR-18s or not. Seems like a very interesting speaker.

http://www.roger-russell.com/xrt18.htm
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13004
Registered: May-04
.

It must be the hurricane approaching but I can't figure out anything that's posted today. You have the Mac speakers but you want to know what speakers lines would be appropriate with the Mac amplifier? What am I missing?


.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Mnr3

Post Number: 55
Registered: Jan-06
You are missing nothing, Jan.
I have looked at about every site and discussion about the xrt 18. I even made a post in the ecoustics speaker section. and got 0 responses.
From this I conclude that not many people own mac speakers. why, I dunno. They are certainly pretty pricey. I am not such an idiot to assume that they were not engineered for synergy with mac electronics of the same period and that was not my question. If the sordid details of WHY I made my post must be revealed, then here: first, I don't know the condition of the mac speakers or even if they play at all or might need some repair beyond the speaker re-foam already mentioned. Second, imagine that I might actually be interested in exploring audio by listening with the mac sources and a few different lines of speakers. certainly that seems to be what lots of people around here do, and the fact that the amps came with speakers should be irrelevant other than that they could set a reference point. Third, it is conceivable, given that the pre has its own 20wpc monitor amp built in, and that the 2255 could easily drive a second pair of speakers in a second zone of my not-open floor plan house mentioned in a thread a while back, that I might actually want to drive 2 or 3 pair, individually or all at once. I don't yet have the luxury of a dedicated listening space.
I don't know why all this justification is needed for a simple question. Maybe I should just post a stupidly simple question without any context, along the lines of "what's the best speaker for X hundred dollars?". I have preferred instead to ask what I thought was a question with reasonable information and one that could complement a recent thread (by Nuck) regarding the Mac sound.
"Mac is Mac" may indeed hold a great deal of wisdom, just like Bud is Bud or Moet-Chandon is Moet-Chandon: there is a house flavor, but for those of us not in the elect, either from lack of exposure to Mac, or Krell, or "fill in your own niche gear brand," it could be useful to flush out just how one can describe that flavor and to have signposts for choosing speakers that have, what's the word?, synergy.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10829
Registered: Dec-04
Easy does it, mnr, I was confused a bit as well.
How will you determine the condition of the Mac speakers?
Are you going to see the repairs through, and if so, when?

Mac gear can drive any speaker, and synergy is something which may, or may not be great with the speakers.
Mac has never been the best at speakers, from my somewhat limited exposure.

Again, if you want to look at other speakers, the Mac stuff is very flexible, and a lot of fun.

Where ya headed dude?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Mnr3

Post Number: 56
Registered: Jan-06
no need for "easy does it": I'm not really animated or over-excited, so sorry if that comes across in the tone of my response, just trying to be direct, so I'll rephrase, in response to "where ya headed":
...would like to start a short list of speakers that may have synergy with mac, period. Given Jan's understandable reluctance not to "name names" in these matters, I was trying to narrow down some "house sounds" that might go well, which is why I mentioned british sound.
so how about monitor audio?
or, a simpler way to ask, if mac is considered "laid back" (and of that, I'm unsure), does one aim for forward speakers so yin completes yang, or neutral, to stay neutral, and since these terms are not mutually agreed upon, which lines correspond to those categories. sorry if this is still falls into noobie type questions. that's my starting point
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3012
Registered: May-05
Most stores I've come across pair Mac electronics with B&W, Sonus Faber, Mangepan, and Dynaudio. There are tons more speaker options that'll work very well, obviously.

Sometimes pairing up a forward speaker with laid back electronics, bright with warm, etc. works well. Not always though. I've heard a bunch of systems put together this way that don't quite acheive what they should on paper. Sometimes they cancel out each other's strengths. Synergy is more complex than pairing up opposite attributes together and getting a happy medium. Synergy IMO is when the sum works better than the parts.


A lot of Mac dealers I've been to don't carry Mac speakers, or at least they don't have them on the floor. I've heard a pair or two but they were way out of my price range by themselves, let alone with the proper electronics behind them, to really sit down and pay attention to what they were doing. I have no idea which ones they were. I think when a company known for their electronics makes speakers, the speakers tend to sell far less than the electronics. Most people aren't considering mixing Krell electronics with Mac speakers, or vice versa.

I too was confused by what you were asking initially.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10837
Registered: Dec-04
Gotcha mnr.
The speaker selection is really a difficult one if you are looking for a specific 'house' sound.
Mac does stuff diffeently than most other brands, but my Classe stuff has been branded as well, and kind of like Mac sound.
So... the gear is going to be neutral to warm, as ss goes, but usually very honest and open.
Your Mac stuff will never play hot or cold.
Your speaker sesection should not try to offset any particular bloom of the electrics, nor should speakers try to tweak shortcomings.

Really, i love what Mac does, and they do it pretty much across the board.
Your amp will drive any speaker set, period.

If you can have a look at your room and try some speakers in your room, you will get the idea a lot better than we can put it across.

mac goes well with large full range drivers and horns, for me.
And a good single malt scotch!

Cheers mate.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13008
Registered: May-04
.

" ... imagine that I might actually be interested in exploring audio by listening with the mac sources and a few different lines of speakers. certainly that seems to be what lots of people around here do ... "

IMO you have somewhat complicated the matter by not choosing the system electronics for their actual sound but rather for their name, reputation and price. It's great that you could step up to a nice system but I have no idea what you prefer when you ask questions about synergy between components. From my own experience on the sales floor I can tell you ten people can buy the same component/speaker and all have different things they heard in that same product that moved them to make a purchase. You have to find what it is that moves you. You don't yet seem to know what about the McIntosh sound you find appealling - if at all - other than it beats the pants off your old stuff. So answering your question is not too different from answering which speaker is best for "X" dollars - which I don't engage in.

Yes, people use quite a variety of speakers with McIntosh gear. That should imply that everyone hears something different in the equipment they own and that those qualities which appeal to them are hopefully based on the various qualities they hear in live music. Which is one reason I seldom do recommendations - even when I'm provided a descripion of the sound you wish to hear. When people tell me what "sound" they want from their hifi I still don't know what you hear in most cases so I don't know where to begin. And often it doesn't really matter since, as I've said before, I don't really know anyone who doesn't think what they own, no matter the reason they bought it, isn't just wonderful right up until they are ready to sell it to move up to something new.


" ... it is conceivable, given that the pre has its own 20wpc monitor amp built in, and that the 2255 could easily drive a second pair of speakers in a second zone of my not-open floor plan house mentioned in a thread a while back, that I might actually want to drive 2 or 3 pair, individually or all at once ... "

No problem with that but I seldom consider remote speakers in the kitchen or on the back deck to be serious listening speakers. As far as I'm concerned you pick what fits the space/decor, what you can afford, what plays loud enough, etc. Choose something small from the line you use as your main speakers. I can only assume you are more interested in your main speakers than in the bathroom speakers.

As you should find out somewhere along the line, when you get into the better equipment, the products tend to sound very much alike. Solid state sounds more like tubes at this price range and Mac sounds very much like Rowland or Levinson. That isn't to say each manufacturer of merit does not have identifiable characteristics but those characteristics reflect more and more what the designer feels is important to her/him in the sound of live music.

I have to go back to this reference because I don't see many high end companies that do not use live music as their own reference. This would appear to be what you are lacking more than anything else - a sense of what is important to you in live music and how to convey that feeling of "performance" in your home electronics. Tight bass and clear midrange just doesn't cut it when you get down to describing a performance or the music itself. So I'm going to tell you to go listen to some live music for a few weeks. Whatever music you like in whatever venue you prefer. Just hear someone playing a real instrument in a real space.




Mac speakers are like Mac electronics. They are fairly neutral. Mac afficianadoes are familiar with Mac speakers and often pair them with their McIntosh gear. But this sort of neutrality takes some getting used to and McIntosh speakers do not always fare well against flashier speakers meant to move off the sales floor if the listener is not familiar with the sound of music being performed. Once again tight bass and clear mids are not the only thing to listen for when auditioning a system.



The others are correct that Mac electronics will drive virtually any speaker you can afford since the autoformers isolate the Mac amplifier from the comings and goings and wanderings of the speaker's impedance/phase angle. As with any amplifier, the system will ultimately sound better when you pair high quality electronics with a speaker that doesn't do stupid things with impedance/phase angle. You can pair it with so so horns and tame the nastiness of the horns or you can play up the virtues of excellent horns. You can mate it with some small monitors and the Mac will bring them to life and to grand size. You can use some "laid back" speakers and make for a very nice evening of jazz and acoustic rock/blues or classical. Some upfront JBL's will make it sound like a rock concert - to the extent your room allows.



The point is synergy is about playing to the best of each component and not pointing to what is a weakness in any product. Since you must still decide what it is about any component that reminds you of a live performance or what it is you hear in music that the equipment emulates, you must first decide what the Mac does that appeals to you when listening to music- other than it has tight bass. You will find the McIntosh electronics to be capable of playing the music, so they will suit a British monitor just as they will play well with a high efficiency single driver or electrostatic/planar. The electronics will essentially allow the speakers to reveal their personality without imposing much of their own on the system sound. The room will do the rest.



Not exactly what you wanted to hear but you need to find out more about the gear you now own and about the sound of live music and go from there IMO.


.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Mnr3

Post Number: 57
Registered: Jan-06
actually, jan, that is a very good response, and not really "not what I wanted to hear," so thanks. actually, I was walking the dog after a late dinner at a friends last night, and I came to my own response (less informed than the forumites, of course) before I had a chance to read your replies. For one, I think, like so many semi-beginners, and even experts, that I want a quick and easy answer to a much more complex question. My own area of expertise in hobbies is bicycles, and it never fails that the same old (dumb) questions are asked: bikes made out of titanium, vs. steel, carbon fiber, and aluminum, and there really is no answer to "which is best" in material or brand, and an ill-fitting uber-bike costing 15k (yes, it can be done!) will perform more poorly than one at $1000 that is suited to the rider. I digress, but my point being that as Jan noted, (and everyone else, over the years) one has to come to one's own priorities, and I suspect my room acoustics and treatments will have as great an effect as brand and design of speakers. I can say that in my brief testing of the gear so far, it has become abundantly clear that even less than stellar speakers sound pretty darn good driven by the mac, both the 20wpc pre and the 250wpc amp.
Even the live music standard is hardly homogenous, in the sense that a solo piano recital, a full blown symphony of a thousand (that I got to hear the Cleveland Orchestra do in Severance Hall, mind you), stadium rock, a gig at jazz fest or in a small venue, all will have different values, sonorities, listener expectations, and so forth.
On the other hand, having read a gazillion posts, I'm a bit sensitive to avoiding the "spend/waste a lot of money" to find that synergy, but I'm wondering if it's even possible, unless one gets really lucky, and of course has a good relationship with a vendor or someone else to allow listening "in situ," and not just based on spec's or reputation or price. (by way of comparison, my buddy who served me dinner last night had a 2k integrated amp paired with recent generation $1200 klipsch floor standers and though it was nice on certain tracks (and to listen to usc beat the crap out of the ohio state suckeyes!), they were ear-bleeders in his lively basement set-up..)

to be honest, next up in the budget steps for me should probably be some more sources; I didn't get a tuner (is analog FM going to be around for a few more years? are any stations still broadcasting what could be called high fidelity?), and maybe a cdp, though there too, I'm fearful of obsolescence and don't have a huge collection...
anyway, thanks to everyone for having the patience to answer these neophyte questions. I know lots of the same types of ?'s get ignored on some of the bike forums I'm on.
So here are 2 final things I would like to ask:
1. there are not many small dealers left in Cleveland, but one of them carries paradigm. I'm assuming they may go well with the mac gear, yes?
2 in the Mcintosh compendium, I know that the c33 and mc2255 have a high ranking, but to which generation would they belong? That is, I know the year of manufacture, but if the system Nuck posted about had an "audio portion of the pre amp [that] is a simplified C26 - again not the cream of the McIntosh line" (Jan's analysis), what could be said of the C33 and 2255? (this is for informational purposed only, at this point, but would be appreciated); any recollection of the xrt 18?

thanks again, guys, and sorry if I was a bit "short" as my southern mom would say, in my desire to have a short and easy answer, quickly. peace
Marvin

ps I'll try to make future posts less convoluted if possible.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13014
Registered: May-04
.

"On the other hand, having read a gazillion posts, I'm a bit sensitive to avoiding the "spend/waste a lot of money" to find that synergy ... "

What that should mean to you now is don't rush into things. You've purchased the Mac pieces so you own quality electronics/speakers in that portion of the system. You don't have a room that fits at this point so there is no hurry getting the rest of the system put together. Don't get to the point where you are frozen in your decision making, don't wait for the next big thing because there will always be another big thing just around the corner, but move with conviction in your purpose. Get to know what you want and then find those qualities. Obviously, if you think you want to use the Mac speakers, get them up and running, you will then have a good chunk of a quality system working and the rest should be easy.


" I didn't get a tuner (is analog FM going to be around for a few more years? are any stations still broadcasting what could be called high fidelity?), and maybe a cdp, though there too, I'm fearful of obsolescence and don't have a huge collection... "

FM will be here for a long while, the advertisers will support it for many years. The quality is the question. I don't feel there is much to be found in the Dallas market and I advised MW not to spend too much for a tuner. He started upgrading tuners from his old Pioneer, Yamaha and Carver products with a quality antenna and then went with a vintage Kenwood I had suggested which made a substantial improvement in the quality of reception and sound quality. (Remember a tuner is only as good as the antenna feeding it signal.) He recently scored a very good deal on a vintage Mac tuner and once again the sound quality has improved. I own a Mac MR71 tube based tuner that I love - and that I really never use. MW gave me another Kenwood he had purchased. I don't use it either. If I listen to background music of the "tuner" variety, I am listening to a Sirius channel without commercials. So, yes, the tuner quality matters but you'll have to decide how much to put into a tuner for your purposes.


You don't understand that CD's were made to be obsolete?! How will the music industry sell you another copy of The White Album if they don't obsolete the five you already own? How will the electronics industry sell anything if they don't convince you what you already own is obsolete?


I listen to 78's if they have the music I want to hear.


Get the idea?




"1. there are not many small dealers left in Cleveland, but one of them carries paradigm. I'm assuming they may go well with the mac gear, yes?"

I heard a pair of Paradigms on a McIntosh MA2275/Mac CD player and was surprised at the performance/dollar equation the amp/speaker pairing made. I was particularly surprised because I've never thought that much of Paradigm as anything other than a value line of speakers that someone else preferred (when they were around I sold and owned a pair of Cambers, another manufacturer from Canada, and thought they offered much better value than Paradigm as do Mirage and Energy IMO). I would tell you to move beyond the "value" lines and head toward something with lasting value and performance. What I used to tell my clients at this point in their system building is to build for the long term. To me that meant finding something that was not going to be replaced next year or possibly in the next five years. That leads me to look at speakers like the British products from Quad, Spendor and Harbeth. They are a very truthful product that puts music above all else. I'm not a big fan personally of Thiel but they make a good product. MW's Gallos are making nice music right now. Vandersteen has speakers that only evolve into better speakers. The magazines have reviewed several speakers I've never heard but I would think would make a very nice pairing with your Mac amplifier. My two favorite speakers of all time are the Quad electrostats and the Lowthers. You must have the right room for the Quads and you must understand what you are buying in the Lowther. You can find the Quads pre owned and the old stuff is just as good as the new stuff for the most part. If you want the Lowthers, call Bob Brines; http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/

If you're in this for the music and not the gear, you can live with either for decades and not be convinced there is anything better.


"2 in the Mcintosh compendium, I know that the c33 and mc2255 have a high ranking, but to which generation would they belong?"

The C33 and your amp belong to the "modern" Mac sound. The very first transistors were simply not good for anyone. By the time your products were manufactured the bugs had mostly been worked out, they just sound more like transistors than tubes and I think one of those two sounds more like music than the other. But that's just my opinion. What MW's solid state Mac does is very similar to but not the same as my Mac tubes. Saying any McIntosh doesn't sound musical is simply not true. Mac's transistors have always had the reputation of sounding more like (their own) tubes than almost anyone else's product. New Mac has better passive components and better circuitry - to an extent. New Mac will sound slightly cleaner than your stuff, particularly at the limits of the amplifier.

But Mac is Mac.

There's very little in the McIntosh line that I woudn't be interested in owning.

The XRT18's are, to me, a very impressive speaker that will require the right room. Look at them! You don't squeeze those into a basement corner.


.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Mnr3

Post Number: 58
Registered: Jan-06
thank you for the thoughtful response.
indeed, one of the issues of the xrt18 is the size (they aren't huge, though), and especially the fact that it did not have the stand that allows the tweeter column to attach to the woofer-mid base. In other words, I have to attach the columns to a wall (or figure out a make-shift stand that doesn't ruin the lovely walnut). That is another reason I was looking, possibly, for some stand-mounted monitors
If the mac's are a "very impressive speaker that will require the right room," what kind of room are we talking about? any ideas on best placement? can I assume that since the base modules (oops, that's bose speak) are separate, that their "directional" placement (i.e. toe-in) is less important, though perhaps closeness to a wall or corner, would be?
Care to elaborate on what makes them very impressive (other than having the quality, perhaps, of not drawing attention to themselves?)? I don't recall you saying that about much gear.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10854
Registered: Dec-04
Good posts and well written and thought out, mnr.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada

Post Number: 126
Registered: Jun-08
I'm not claiming to be an expert with McIntosh but from what I've read it seems that McIntosh pairs nicely with Sonus Faber. Typically sought out for those who like classical, easy listening, piano and strings - not making a recommendation but probably a brand you should investigate in your quest.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13016
Registered: May-04
.

"In other words, I have to attach the columns to a wall (or figure out a make-shift stand that doesn't ruin the lovely walnut)."

I'm not an expert when it comes to this speaker since I never sold this piece. But my understaning of the design is that it never really achieved the flexibility of placement Mac had hoped for. Separating the two sections introduced problems that related to your seating position. Near field was not perfect and neither was far field listening. About the best I can suggest is that you read about the speakers or call McIntosh before you make any decisions regarding placement.


"If the mac's are a "very impressive speaker that will require the right room," what kind of room are we talking about?"

The generic answer is a room without problems. McIntosh speakers like fairly large rooms. They did design speakers that were quite happy in smaller installations but the XRT18 isn't one of them. You'll need some space to pull the speakers out into the room and a room that isn't overly damped. To describe the perfect room for the Mac speakers is no more than saying you need a good room for any good speaker. The one thing the XRT18's don't require is a specific placement such as a corner or well out into the room like a Quad electrostatic, OTH they are not going to be happy without some attention being played to where you and the speakers reside. There's not much more I can say that doesn't become repetitive and generic in this regard. The room usually dertermines the placement.


"can I assume that since the base modules (oops, that's bose speak) are separate, that their "directional" placement (i.e. toe-in) is less important, though perhaps closeness to a wall or corner, would be?"

The bass response of any Mac speaker requires careful placement within most rooms due to the average room's response peaks and dips. Mac likes to provide suficient bass power and bass extension for most musical applications. This would once again suggest a reasonably large room where big bass wavefronts have room to develop. The high frequency panels are somewhat the oddballs in that they don't really operate as point sources or as line sources. They measure one way at some frequencies and the other way at other frequencies. The preferred placement of the top panels will vary from room to room and your listening position is somewhat critical with these speakers. Placement will therefore determine toe in but the speakers, since they were intended to provide the flexibility of wall mounting , do have a reasonably wide dispersion pattern. Your room and your preference will determine whether the panel works best out into the room (most likely my preference) where they will tend to sound more like dipoles or whether you prefer a real wall mounting which provides more of an infinite baffle quality.


"Care to elaborate on what makes them very impressive (other than having the quality, perhaps, of not drawing attention to themselves?)"

Well that gets us back to what each of us have as priorities. Mac speakers strive for low distortion at all frequencies at close to realistic levels. They are also capable of wide dynamic range at those same levels. This makes them rather uninteresting for those listening for pryotechnics from a speaker but startling when the program material demands these qualities. Mac speakers traditionally require the sort of amplification Mac provides in terms of wattage.

.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10858
Registered: Dec-04
mnr, as for the room...
Do not try a room that is 16' square, with 10' ceilings, for example.

Square rooms are the worst, and adding a hard reflective surface guarantees bass mush.

Room treatments are the best way to gain everything that there is to be had from a componant or song, but requires a lot of reading before trying what you know will work.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Mnr3

Post Number: 59
Registered: Jan-06
thanks, Nuck,
my house is a mess sonically, as I mentioned in a thread a while back: built around 1912 with hardwood floors and real lathe and plaster, ten foot ceilings, lots of small rooms with window or door openings on almost every single wall. I became acutely aware of the difficulties when even smallish bookshelf speakers were creating sonic boom, so to speak. If you've had a look at the picture of the xrt 18 speaker by mcintosh that I brought home, you'll appreciate the other issue I mentioned, namely that each speaker is in 2 pieces, a bass/midrange pair of drivers in a larger cabinet with a detached column of 16 tweeters (2+16=18 in the name). at least they are in mcintosh walnut, but without the $600 stands, I will have to wall mount the tweeters and the cable (proprietary from what I can tell) is only a few feet long, so placement will be limited and probably not ideal.

in other news, I gave a call to an audio store that has some closeout prices on some paradigm studio 20's that I might pick up if I get there in time. I'm sure I could put them to good use, either with the mac's or one of my sonos zone players acquired this summer. I'm still on the right side of the "you can never have too many speakers" equation !

btw, having listened to some neil young earlier , then nina simone (including her version of "strange fruit"), I'm now listening to the shostakovich cello-piano sonata for the first time in years on the mac pre-amp's internal 20 wpc monitor amp. wow, is all I can say. makes you stop what you're doing and listen

cheers to all
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