hi guys, been scouring the estate sales and came across the above, along with a C33 pre-amp. I am completely clueless regarding Mac, though of course able to do a quick web search for the bare minimum. so, even though it's widely variable, any idea of what a fair price for the pair, without any servicing, and not yet plugged in (but I won't take it home if dead, probably) could you throw some ball park figures (I mean plus or minus 500 or so)? is it something I should look seriously at (which I gather, from the brief searches done so far) or let the connaisseurs with deep pockets fight it out (I will not dive into a bidding war, a la ebay, in other words) just looking to figure out what a fair and reasonable ball park figure might be. many thanks they also have a pair of MC XRT speakers, ... but don't know exact model. thanks marvin
ok, just realized my primary question is probably uncool; I've done enough homework to make it irrelevant; how about where the mc 2255 fits in the macintosh development of sound as jan as described elsewhere? cheers and have a good wkend. marvin
thanks, Jan. I already knew that answer of course, having read probably most of your near 13,000 posts (and I don't mean that in a flip way). sometimes, though, the search function for old theads is not that great and I was looking for that section that included comments about the differences between old and new macs, as in the sound has not changed but perhaps the newer components were of higher quality than another vintage, the better vs. leaner mac years, etc.
It's just a bit hard for me to go from contemplating dropping 500 bucks or so on some smaller amps (with no real large spaces to fill, as mentioned in my last thread) to 10 times that (retail, anyway), and of course the units I saw are of unknown condition, yet may still draw high bids, yaddah, yaddah. trying to think out loud just a bit and use forum as the cold sounding board that it often can be. the combo certainly would not be a "great" deal, since the guy running the estate sale knows that it will go high on ebay. more power to him if that's what he wants; I certainly would bow out. but if I could get it around 2k or so, it would be, I hope, a vaccine against upgraditis (which I don't really suffer from yet). thanks again.
any recollection of the xrt speakers from that period (early to mid 80's right?) I did not look them over that much; they did not seem to have any array of sorts, just a typical big-ish (though not tall) floor stander, like a 3x2 footer. again, I appreciate the time. marvin
The Mac sound has been consistent over the decades; big, easy and musical. Listening to my forty five year old tubes and current day Mac is simply seeing the refinement of the product as it relates to improved sound quality. While my tubes have the same overall sound as new Mac they are not quite as transparent to the smallest details of the music. If you obssess over hearing the trailing ends of a fade for the last quarter of a second or the sound of Manhattan glasses being moved on the table in the jazz club, then buy the newest McIntosh product you can or buy some other label. If you are after the overall texture, tone and taste of the music, then virtually any Mac will sound like all others if it mates well to your speakers. Most Mac amplifiers have autoformers which make them capable of dealing with extreme impedance loads but you might require higher power from one Mac amp over another.
Parts quality has been upgraded over the years though my amplifiers have some 1% and no more than 5% resistors and 5% caps at a time when most other manufacturers were using no better than 10% resistors and 20% caps throughout their designs. Connectors are better today and will require less housecleaning than my amps and, if you are impressesed by taking the cover of an amplifier, you won't see the hand built quality that is evident in my amplifier once you get into the now thirty year old solid state gear. New Mac is the model of efficiency in production where as my amps were assembled by a small group of individuals who got their hands into the amp chassis to solder every conne ction.
If your speakers are not dificult to drive, then any Mac will sound very much like any other Mac. The few exceptions to that rule are easy to spot since there is a small handful of products that have not appreciated in value as have the rest of the Mac products. If your speakers actually require more power than a 100 watt amp can supply, then buy a larger, more powerful Mac. It will sound, at low volumes, like any other Mac.
Mac speakers are a somewhat acquired taste in the same way any good speaker is a matter of taste in the listener. They are not upfront in the way a Martin Logan will be and they are not laid back in the way a Magnepan might be. Mac speakes are generally about extremely low distortion product, accurately following the signal and tonal neutrality. Some people find that very alluring and some find it not to offer the sonic thrills they desire.
comprehensive, elegant, answer. one for the archives.
I had no idea (and never thought of it) that one architecture could employ fewer resistors and cap's. might that be why, apart from the tubes, mac's are supposed to run cool? (part of the whole SS vs tubes equation)?
Marvin, the whole issue of running cool is really one of longevity and there ability of the componants to happily survive thermal stress. For Mac, the heat tends to stay hidden. Having potted transformers and some componants mean a constant temperature, even if high. If you open a Levinson, or better yet, a Rowland amp, with more tar and mass than LaBrea can churn out.
Most of this was gleaned over dinner with Jan and Mike, btw.
A big Mac amplifier can get hot when run hard. That's just how things work when you are hitting 300 watt peaks. But they seldom run as hot as many other products and most of their heat, as Nuck suggests, is within a stable range rather than running very hot for awhile and then coooling off slightly.
Mac has generally run their products cool at idle. You can put your hand on the transformers in my tube amps or most any Mac amplifier when they are running at low volume, but crank up the level and they do get warm. However, many class AB tube amps and a good many transistor amps are hot to the touch at all times. So low heat at idle and a stable temperature range when in operation gets you longevity. That and over building your circuits for the type of handling they might get when the Gratefull Dead tour with 58 of your amplifiers to use as their sound system. The super tight torelances on passive components also helps since the circuit behaves as designed.
Mac will often add an extra gain stage or cascaded output circuit which means all the circuits can run somewhat more conservatively, which extends the lifespan of the uint. This amde them less popular when the high end mavens were preaching simplicity in circuitry. But then the maven's amplifiers were blowing up and Mac was still standing. No doubt, when you buy Mac you expect it to last.
Isn't how hot an amp gets simply power in/ vs power out/ and heatsink area+mass?
Can we talk sometime about Maggies being 'laid back'?.....I guess I may just be accustomed to that presentation since it now seems so .... natural..... You may also want to suggest something very 'forward' for me to go listen to. For reference purposes, only, you understand!
"Isn't how hot an amp gets simply power in/ vs power out/ and heatsink area+mass?"
Not exactly. It's clear that valves run hotter than transistors. But a tube pre amp will run cooler overall than a transistor power amp.
Next you'd want to know the class of operation. A small class A amplifier of any output type will run hotter to the touch than a large class D amplifier. But virtually any high end pre amp runs in class A while most power amps run in class AB.
Then you would need to determine where in the amplifier's operating range you are taking a temperaure mesurement. If you are discussing idling temperature, then the idle bias would be relevant with some amplifiers running much hotter at idle than other amps. That would be somewhat related to your concept of "power in" - I assume you mean power consumed as in current draw from the AC outlet - but that wouldn't be related to the heatsink capacity or power output which are both tagged to maximum output.
Coming off idle the point where the amplifier switches from a low wattage class A operation to a high(er) power class AB operation would be something you'd want to know. So there are many things to consider beyond just power in and power out/heatsink area.
"Can we talk sometime about Maggies being 'laid back'?.....I guess I may just be accustomed to that presentation since it now seems so .... natural..... You may also want to suggest something very 'forward' for me to go listen to. For reference purposes, only, you understand!"
Sure, if you want. However, IMO, we'd first need to discuss the concept of "laid back" and "up front". Whenever the question of "warmth", "up front", "laid back", etc. comes up on the forum there are multiple answers that generally indicate a wide variance in what people believe they are reading vs what they are hearing.
You apparently don't feel the panels are "laid back" while someone listening to a pair of Polks or Paradigms might not think their speakers are "up front". To the listener, their speakers are just right - at least until they decide to upgrade.
If you listen to live music on a regular schedule, then whatever you own will very likely be a function of where you like to sit and what you expect to hear from that seat. (Though in my case I prefer a slightly more "laid back" presentation in my home system than I expect when I sit in the front row at a performance. Even in the front row I'm probably not as close to the performers as a microphone will be in the studio.)
If the speaker is at all neutral to the source and the amplifier is capable of driving the speakers without serious frequency response errors, then the speaker should take on the character of the components in front of it.
The room imposes its response on any system so the room can change a speaker's characteristic sound more than anything else. A speaker with broad dispersion through it's midrange frequencies - for vocals that would be 300 to 2500Hz, a piont where in many systems the crossover occurs and the outgoing bass driver narrows its dispersion while the incoming upper range driver is at its broadest dispersion relative to driver dimensions - will have a more up front character in a live room or when placed close to a side wall than when placed in a larger room away from the adjacent walls.
I don't know of any speakers that are "up front" that you should go listen to. They are out there but they might not show you their character until you get them away from the showroom. Offhand, I'd say Wilson is "up front" without being brash while Quad electrostatic is neutral without being "laid back". I'm sure others would disagree based on their own experience with the brands.