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New member Username: BruderzPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-08 | Hi everyone, My current Yamaha Receiver is loosing its life and my wife gave green lights for a (budget) replacement ;) Here is what I want to do: I have all my music on a dedicated music computer (mp3s, iTunes) and also listen to internet radio (shoutcast, pandora) a lot. Currently I simply run from the sound card line/out to the receiver RCA in, which is naturally pretty noisy. I want to change this with the new system. There seems to be a lot of different ways of hooking up the computer to a receiver/amp: * a new soundcard with digital output (SPDIF?) This would probably get ride of noise from the cable and the connector at the soundcard ($250 ? ). * an external soundcard This would at least get ride of noise introduced by various computer parts inside the computer ($150 ?) * a DAC (e.g. Weiss Minerva). But I am not sure I really understand how this works (>$500 ?) * an amp or receiver with USB input. Some newer models accept audio signal via USB input (e.g. JVC RXD411, Outlaw RR2150) (>$500) * and there are some emerging higher-end models with Ethernet capabilities (e.g DLAN from YAMAHA). But in some of those cases they do not support all music formats. so how is this better than USB? Plus, they have all kinds of other features I don't need. (>$750 ?) Now, all I want is an integrated stereo amplifier (two channels) with around 80Wpc (+-20), two or more line inputs, two speaker outputs with speaker selection (A,B,AB), volume control, a treble, bass and balance control, a power on/off switch AND a way to get it to play audio from my computer without too much noise/discoloration/distortion, etc. If I had all the money in the world this would not be so much of a problem, I guess, but unfortunately I am quite restricted. My wife was thinking of $300, I think I can push this to $500 but really I wished I could just shell out $700 to get the Outlaw. What would you do? Any ideas? |
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New member Username: BruderzPost Number: 4 Registered: Aug-08 | NOTE: I noticed that I posted this under the wrong category. I started the same topic in Integrated Amplifiers, in case someone reading this here can help me out. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4805 Registered: Dec-03 | Ingmar, If I understand correctly, you are currently using the computer's internal DAC, and taking an analogue audio line out from the computer, probably from the jack plug socket provided for headphones. The noise. Have you checked it is from the computer, and not from the input channel on the receiver? Do you hear it on headphones connected directly to the computer? It also seems to me that you are wondering what to look for in a replacement amplifier. Most audio amplifiers now have SPDIF optical input, but you would obviously need SPDIF optical output from the computer. Assuming your computer has USB (and will provide the audio bit stream to it; and the USB port is available and not already in use for the keyboard, mouse, etc), probably the least expensive solution would be an external DAC with USB input and analogue output. There are several from which to choose. The can be about $100. There is also the possibility of converting the USB digital output to optical SPDIF. Electronics hobby shops have these. Ethernet is "overkill" for audio, also Firewire alias DVI. Personally I would recommend taking it a step at a time. Get and amp you like which sounds good, bearing in mind the input your require now, and might need in the future. There is also WiFi to consider as a means of getting the bitstream from the source to the DAC, wherever it is. If your computer has WiFi, this introduces another range of options, but these need not affect the choice of amplifier. Hope this helps. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1283 Registered: Feb-07 | The RR2150 has (from what I read) a fairly decent onboard DAC, and USB connection. It also matches your other criteria. As an alternative, the USB DACs are really quite good (I have 2 of them): http://www.audio-magus.com/Super_Pro_DAC707SE_USB_p/dac707usb.htm But you'll still need an integrated as well. Do yourself a favour and ditch the mp3s. Mp3 is the devil, and will diminish the potential of your system. |
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New member Username: BruderzPost Number: 6 Registered: Aug-08 | Thanks John and David for your input! It is greatly appreciated. Yes, I do take the analogue sound from the soundcard's headphone jack. The jack itself is quite sensitive and touching the cable often results in pretty loud crackling noise. But the main problem is a more subdued humming noise, especially annoying during soft/quite passages. I have not tried with a headphone yet. Indeed I am still unclear of what kind of integrated amp I should be looking for. The two main options are 1) just get a decent integrated amp in my price range plus whatever hardware to provide a cleaner signal to the amp (e.g. better soundcard with SPDIF out, USB DAC, etc.) This could possibly be spread out, as to keep the initial bill within limits ;) 2) put the money for those two things together and get an integrated amp that already has an internal DAC and USB (yes my computer has USB 2.0) I first was looking at option 1) but quickly found myself in trouble. Firstly I had a hard time finding a simple but decent sounding Integrated Amplifier without the bells and whistles, and secondly the only DAC solutions I stumbled across where $1000+ (e.g. Benchmark DAC1). During this search I discovered some amps with internal DAC and USB input. Just what I needed. But then again, some of those seem to be sold only in Europe (e.g. Pioneer A-A9-J) and very few here. And then my eyes fell on the Outlaw RR2150 which indeed seems to be made just after my specs. But then again, the price is still a bit steep. I saw that maybe two years ago one was able to get a b-stock model for $500. No more. Their current price is $700. For 500 I would have bought it in a heart beat (and thought about how to explain the extra $200 to my wife later). So now with new light on the issue, thanks to David. The DAC you pointed out looks good. What is the difference to those that cost ten-fold and more? With regards to other things mentioned: The MP3s I have are form old times but with decent compression (24/128+). The main bulk is from encoding my CD selection with iTunes. I also think Ethernet is overkill, but thought that maybe it had some nice extra features, such as controlling the amp from the computer, or displaying the audio content (e.g. song title) on the amp. This would allow the computer to remain in screensaver mode while I can still see what is playing (especially when streaming internet radio). But oh well, so much for dreaming. I do have WiFi and use it extensively in the house (multiple laptops, for work, etc.) but somehow I am not happy about the idea of further straining the already narrow bandwidth of 56kbs. Down streaming radio from the internet and then up streaming it again to the amp does not sound so great. Sorry for the lengthy message. As you can see I am still a bit swimming here. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1288 Registered: Feb-07 | Not really sure what the difference between my DACs and ones costing 10x more (since I haven't had the pleasure of hearing a Benchmark or Bel Canto DAC). But I can tell you that the DAC I mentioned was as VAST improvement over using an RCA out of the onboard soundcard. It eliminated all residual noise and resulted in better sound quality too. I wouldn't bother with streaming music via wireless. I've tried it before with disappointing results. If you're really serious about squeezing better sound quality from your system, consider re-encoding your CDs into a lossless format. 128 kbps is really not good. I can even tell the difference between 320 kbps and a lossless FLAC. And I can even tell the difference between a FLAC file and CD. The Outlaw is probably a worthy unit. Over the course of time you will own it, 200 bucks over budget is a small price to pay! |
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New member Username: BruderzPost Number: 7 Registered: Aug-08 | But really, its more like $400 over budget (it starts at $300 and I "think" I can stretch it to $500) You probably are right about taking a look at the encoding step. I have been encoding since mp3 started (or since I got aware of it in the mid '90s) and hard drive space was expensive. i guess that now has changed quite a bit and I should be able to afford a better encoding schema. So, now I am still not sure what to do. I think I need to see what system i can build using an integrated and a DAC such as you mentioned above. Taking $100 for the DAC leaves me with about $400 for the integrated amp. Any suggestions there? What about the Onkyo A-9555? And then again, on the other hand there also is the JVC RXD411S with USB input for less then $400, though its a A/V receiver of which i won't be using 90% if its buttons. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2945 Registered: May-05 | Ingmar, Not to sound the wrong way, but - You get what you pay for. Most of the time anyway. I haven't heard nor seen it, but by all accounts, the Outlaw receiver is everything its made out to be. A very trusted dealer of mine has tried one out and had very favorable things to say about it. Another option may be a Squeezebox. Most if not all have an internal DAC, and can be used wirelessly or through an ethernet connection. Good thing about the ethernet connection is far less drop outs and lag time. I have no experience with them either, but have been looking into them. The Squeezebox Duet costs about $300 and can be added to whatever receiver/integrated you currentlty have. A good thing about it is that you can add an external DAC down the road, and there are a ton of aftermarket things like power supplies to make it sound better. It'll also access internet radio stations, even when you computer is off. But... Garbage in = garbage out. If you're using poor quality encoding, it doesn't matter what you're using. Nothing will make a signal better. The best it can do is faithfully reproduce it. You should make it a point to use either FLAC or Apple Lossles. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 322 Registered: Oct-07 | Ingmar, you need to convince your wife that spending more now is a good idea. 1. The cost/value ratio gets better as you spend more. The 700$ RR2150 is at a great value:money spent point 2. Future proof. Better, more adaptable gear will help guard you against having to spend more later. My last stereo was basically unchanged for over 20 years. I just spent the last few years going thru upgrade fever and am now good for another 20 years. The ONLY upgrade planned is to wait for BlueRay to get to 200$ or less and than jump in. Plan for the future beyond what is minimum for NOW. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4806 Registered: Dec-03 | Ingmar, If you have WiFi, you can play recordings very well with an Apple AirportExpress. It just accepts the stream, quite wide enough to transmit CD files without loss, and has a 3.5-mm audio minijack for analog or optical digital output. Its internal DAC is OK. You should not hear interference or noises from cables. However, if you use the optical digital out, you can use any external DAC you like. I had one and liked it, but now use an Apple TV which I see advertised here below your first post, and which works the same way. You can simply choose "Airport Express" or "Apple TV" in place of "Computer" as the output from the computer running iTunes. I too was skeptical about sound quality but in fact it is as good as the ancillary equipment allows. I agree with David about using lossless where possible. You can also play straight uncompressed aiff or wav files (the files on a CD), but the sound is the same. One can now get high-res downloads, such as 24 bit 88 kHz FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) files from people such as Linn Records who sell "Studio Master" files. They are very impressive. It is simple to convert from FLAC. Linn has some good advice; http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-studio-master-downloads-itunes.aspx There is also a very nice OpenSource player - VLC media player. http://www.videolan.org/ which looks and feels like iTunes but will play more audio file formats. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10644 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks for that info, John. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4807 Registered: Dec-03 | My pleasure, Nuck. I still play CDs, too. I just mess about with these other things to see what they will do. It is not so long ago that all downloads were junk. This is no longer true. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1296 Registered: Feb-07 | Good info John, thanks! I avoid iTunes like the plague. Not to get off on a rant here, but I avoid anything from Apple. Anyway, I remember reading in Stereophile awhile ago a letter from the manufacturer of the Benchmark DAC (I believe) and they recommended that people not use iTunes (can't remember the OS) for playback since it was fundamentally "broken". I like Foobar. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10660 Registered: Dec-04 | Winamp is good as well, transfer cd to flac in a jiffy. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1297 Registered: Feb-07 | I use Winamp for ripping my CDs to FLAC. Very fast, and good quality. Uses the Flake encoder, I believe. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1743 Registered: Jun-07 | " I avoid iTunes like the plague. Not to get off on a rant here, but I avoid anything from Apple" Apple can suck my (!) CDex is what I use to rip to FLAC. It is also free. It has jitter correction as well. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1298 Registered: Feb-07 | Well said Nick. Cheers. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 329 Registered: Oct-07 | I third the WinAmp motion. Currently playing with the Freebie version and WinAmp and have NO complaints. Fairly quick, good player and will suit me for my experiments. The FLAC site has a list of software it'd take a month to dig thru. |