Archive through May 21, 2008
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New member Username: BigdavveTampa, FL Post Number: 1 Registered: Apr-08 | I am buying a bar! The former owner is taking the audio system with him, it was home gear, a decent Yamaha receiver and CD player running 4 bookshelf speakers and a powered sub. This isn't a nightclub, there's no need for booming loud sound. It's about 900 square feet in the bar area with a 12' ceiling. I'd like to upgrade things somewhat, so I talked to a pro audio guy, he said he could put together a good system for about $10,000 installed. That's more than I want to spend. I have a lot of experience with audio, installing a system here would be no problem for me. I am leery about using home equipment though. I know the last guy seemed to do fine with it, I'm just wondering if it's nuts to expect home gear to hold up if it's on for 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week-even if for at least half of the time it is at fairly low volume. Yet, I don't have much experience with pro gear, I know that the connectors are different and there are other differences, so I'd feel more comfortable buying home gear. The budget I came up with is:Receiver $500, 2nd Amp $400, CD Player $200, 6 Bookshelf Speakers $1500, Powered Sub $400, Wires/Cables $300, Miscellaneous $500. That's $3800, a lot less than $10,000! Any ideas or comments? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10133 Registered: Dec-04 | DS, you might want to run down to the Guitar Shop or Music dealer ans see about pro stuff. Powered monitors, a small board, etc. Pro stuff uses balanced connections, thats an XLR...good connections. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 204 Registered: Apr-08 | The budget I came up with is:Receiver $500, 2nd Amp $400, CD Player $200, 6 Bookshelf Speakers $1500, Powered Sub $400, Wires/Cables $300, Miscellaneous $500. That's $3800, a lot less than $10,000! Any ideas or comments? Dave, we do home audio in bars all the time. It's just a matter of matching the gear to the needed volume. Speakers don't mind being used, just mind being over driven. I'd spend more on the sub, maybe less on the speakers because the sub will be under the most strain. Maybe 6-8 smaller speakers and as big and powerful a sub as you can afford. We're using Sonos as the sound source these days. Then you can play any and all CDs from a hard drive, you've got a back up with its internet capabilities and you've got a preamp. Or use the ZP100 with its sub crossover, allowing the small speakers to play louder. Two Sonos ZP100s + controller = $1400. 4 pair PSB B15s or similar, about $1200. Two PSB 5i subs or similar, around $1000. Speaker cable. That would work pretty well. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12602 Registered: May-04 | . Why don't you find out what he actually wants first? How loud are you expecting this to play when it's not at a "fairly low volume"? Background levels? Shout at the bartended levels? Do you need thump from a sub or just music in the bar? Any sound reinforcement work or just music in the bar area? What's the overall goal of the system? What's with the 2nd amp in your set up? You say you'll have 900 sq. ft. in the bar area. Are you trying to confine the sound to that area or allow for spill over to another area? . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 206 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, he very well spelled out what he wanted. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2701 Registered: May-05 | In this situation, I'd personally skip the CD player and go for something like a music server. The Sonos John mentions is an excellent choice from a user friendly point of view. Its a bit expensive though, and I'm not sure if the internal amps are up to the task of powering speakers for as long as you want them to. A less expensive option may be to go with some sort of iPod dock. I've seen a few different ones made for this type of application. The Basketball team I work with has a Numark iPod dock set up in their locker room. The guys like it, its easy to use, and seems durable. I'll see if I can find a model number tomorrow at work. I'd be willing to bet that pro audio gear would probably work better in this situation than home gear, as its primary design goal is most likely durability. Furthermore, a lot of companies' warantees state that the gear is for non-commercial use. Using it in your setting may void some warantees, if that's a concern. You should verify that before you buy anything. If you're set on home audio gear, you may want to consider Class D (aka digital) amplification. It runs significantly cooler, thus expanding your installation possibilities, and possibly has a longer shelf life if left on and playing constantly. Excessive heat isn't very ood for regular gear, and Class D gear may may fair better in this regard. Maybe I'm wrong though. Either way, good luck with your new business. I'm pretty sure this is the least of your concerns. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 207 Registered: Apr-08 | Stu, so far, so good with Sonos running dual speakers are pretty high volumes, though I imagine we'll break one if we keep pushing them further and further. Another thing we do is use something like the Sherbourn TST amps with built in speaker selectors run directly from the Sonos ZP80 as the source/volume control. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12604 Registered: May-04 | . Jan, he very well spelled out what he wanted." Right, fishy, I forgot, with you one size fits all. He said he doesn't need booming loud sound. 900 sq.ft. of open floor plan probably doesn't require two subs for non-booming loud sound. If it does, he can always add a second sub later. Maybe he just needs a CD changer to keep operation simple. What do you have against asking for more information, fishy? Oh, yeah, I forgot, you don't listen to new information. DS - Mind answering my questions? Also, who would have access to the equipment when you're not around? . |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 198 Registered: Oct-07 | Since, I presume, nobody is going to be doing any critical listening, you could skip the music server and go all the way to an I-Pod. A 30 or 40 gig will hold a months worth of tunes without repeats. |
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New member Username: BigdavveTampa, FL Post Number: 2 Registered: Apr-08 | Sorry, I was very busy the last couple of days and hadn't checked the forum. I have been doing quite a bit of research on pro gear and I have learned quite a bit. I think I will probably use pro gear for the amps and mixer/preamp it just seems like it would be more durable and the warranty issue does come up, like was mentioned. For speakers, I'm still unsure. Pro speakers are BIG$$$$ for good ones, any ideas for a good value in a bookshelf size speaker that can handle a lot of power (100-200 watts continuous) and is fairly sensitive? I will be there quite a bit, but I am going to keep the main controls like volume level as simple as possible for the employees. As far as sources go, the Ipod idea makes sense, I'd like to have one night a week where customers could bring in music to play, either CD's or they could bring their Ipod and I could plug it into the mixer. As far as the question about volume, I want the ability to crank it up, even if I rarely do. I'd like a little thump to the bass, but I don't need to shake the building next door. I'm thinking of 2 subs, maybe 12's powered or passive. I have a revised budget, for which I have already tentatively selected the gear for, except for the speakers-here it is: CD Player-Denon pro 5 disc-290 Mixer/Preamp-Rolls-240 EQ-Alto-120 Crossover-Alto-110 2 Speaker Amps-Crown-800 6 or 8 full range speakers-1600 Subs and amp-1000 Cables,wire,misc-600 So that's 4760 total, but I think it's worth it to get the pro gear. Any suggestions for speakers/subs? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12606 Registered: May-04 | . If that's the direction you want to head, look at powered monitors and scrap the power amplifiers. You might want to consider what content you could expose all your customers to if you allow anyone to plunk their favorite CD or iPod into your system. If you want to crank this system up, I don't know that I would go the iPod route but I suppose after a few drinks, no one other than the few audiophiles who wander in would care about the source quality. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 209 Registered: Apr-08 | Powered monitors increase installation hassle dramatically because you need power everywhere and increases maintenance hassle and lowers reliability because of the constantly vibrating electronics and inability to run as cool. Why do you need a mixer? I've found that pro gear is more expensive for lower sound quality and more hassle. We have had to pull out quite a bit from different installations because of either the low quality, the poor installation or product failures. If you want real room EQ, you could do some thing like an NAD T175 preamp, then set the unit to stereo mode and use Audyssey room correction. A little overkill, but better than cheap EQs that are bound to be set wrong or screwed up by people messing with it. Besides, EQs end up lowering the dynamic range of the system. Most of the under $500/pr Canadian speakers can handle lots of power - PSB, Paradigm, Energy, etc. We've seen people using Bose or other low grade speakers for decades in bars and while they suck, they don't seem to break. It generally takes disco levels to break most speakers. Of course, if they can manage to give you an actively bi-amped system with good EQ, that's not a bad way to go if the performance meets up with the potential. You could use the same EQ and crossovers for all the speakers. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12608 Registered: May-04 | . "Powered monitors increase installation hassle dramatically because you need power everywhere and increases maintenance hassle and lowers reliability because of the constantly vibrating electronics and inability to run as cool." Only partial BS. Yes, you will need to supply AC Voltage to each powered monitor. How you do this is up to you and your building codes inspector. Whether this set up works into your plans is not something to be determined by any information you have so far provided. You should consider powered monitors and weigh their advantages against their disadvantages. Any decent shop without a bias toward being right all the time should assist you in selecting the proper amplifier/speaker set up. Go talk to a dealer and let them sit down with you on a quiet weekday to discuss what you should consider. Everything you choose is a trade off of sorts, you simply need to decide what trade offs suit your needs better than the others. The BS about vibrating electronics and so forth is just that - BS and should be ignored. Somebody here has an agenda. ] You've now worked your way up to almost $5k without installation. That's still a long way from $10k but you're gradually working your way up there. Who will do this install? How much more will that cost? If it were me and I knew as little about this as you seem to, I'd give some consideration to who will back up this installation long term. Are you going to troubleshoot this yourself if something goes wrong or are you going to come to us for help? At the money you intend to spend without installation or back up service, I'd go back to your original "pro audio guy" and ask for another bid that stays within your budget. Then go set a budget to stay within. Ask him about the advantages and disadvanatages of doing this yourself vs. using him. If you want this bar to be here for 20 years without constantly changing out the equipment, you'll probably be better off putting the money in up front. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 222 Registered: Apr-08 | So heat and vibration don't affect electronics? Jeez, well, then why are our subs with outboard electronics, oh, about 10 times more reliable than those with built in amps? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12610 Registered: May-04 | . "So heat and vibration don't affect electronics? Jeez, well, then why are our subs with outboard electronics, oh, about 10 times more reliable than those with built in amps?" Don'know, guess you sell crap subs. Crap subs aren't powered professional monitors. The sub will take care of itself and the powered monitors won't have to deal with the problems found in a subwoofer. Give it up, fishy. He needs to talk to someone with whom he can banter ideas back and forth, not someone with a fixed agenda to be right. He doesn't want what you suggested. Now don't go on about this. Go sell a crap sub instead. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 226 Registered: Apr-08 | The same holds for pro monitors we've sold. Far more likely to develop amp problems if the amp is internal. Could be coincidence, but i doubt it. From the looks of it, it's more like he doesn't want what you suggested and is getting external amps. i've done dozens upon dozens of bar, restaurant, hotel, retail systems this way, how many pro powered studio monitors have you installed in a bar? That's what I thought. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12611 Registered: May-04 | . "The same holds for pro monitors we've sold. Far more likely to develop amp problems if the amp is internal. Could be coincidence, but i doubt it." Gee, you would think the industry would notice if what you say is true. Internal amps have reliability issues? The industry doesn't seem to think so since they've been building them by the hundreds of thousands for decades. You're full of crap, fishy, and you apparently sell crap that breaks. "From the looks of it, it's more like he doesn't want what you suggested and is getting external amps. i've done dozens upon dozens of bar, restaurant, hotel, retail systems this way, how many pro powered studio monitors have you installed in a bar? That's what I thought." I stopped counting long ago. Is this how you're going to "assist" people on this forum, fishy? Anytime anyone disagrees with you you're going to try to turn this into another 200 post thread going back and forth? You just have to be right and you have to have the last word, eh? DS - Think about the points I mentioned in my previous post. Who will be responsibile for the installation? Who will troubleshoot any problems that arise? How quickly for both and at what expense? Will someone provide loaner gear if you have down time? If you don't have answers for these questions, I suggest you contact your pro audio guy again. If he can't cut his budget and you can't change your mind on what you told him you wanted, then shop around. There must be more than one pro audio guy in your area. Or, just wait for fishy, I'm sure he'll be back to add the last word here. My final advice, don't buy anything from anyboby who insists on having the last word. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 227 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, thankfully, I'm not selling anything. Did you stop counting at zero or what? Notice that PA speakers don't have the amps built in. Aside from flexibility, there are reasons for that. Keeping amps separate also means that you can easily swap a failed amp channel without a technician or voiding warranties or losing a whole speaker. It's not a terrible thing to do internally powered monitors, but it does up the cost, install complexity, repair rate, expense and hassle. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1128 Registered: Nov-06 | "Powered monitors increase installation hassle dramatically because you need power everywhere and increases maintenance hassle and lowers reliability because of the constantly vibrating electronics and inability to run as cool." I take it you have never heard of MeyerSound, L'Acoustics, and JBL all 3 make self powered speakers for arena concert sound, and are meant to be driven LOUD. If constant vibration was really an issue, these self powered designs would not continue to be prevalent (especially in the world of sound reinforcement) due to the need for reliable equipment. FOH engineers need good sound and reliability, not one or the other. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 250 Registered: Apr-08 | So, Gavin, you have extensive experience gauging the reliability of speakers with built in amps vs speakers with outboard amps? Or you are just saying that since someone makes both products, they must be equally reliable? Because the latter is faulty logic. I can't prove whether it's heat or vibration or coincidence, all I can tell you is the products we sell with outboard electronics have been dramatically more reliable than those with built in electronics, both on the pro and consumer side. Space, cost and excess cabling are often considerations for building electronics in that sometimes outweigh long term reliability. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1134 Registered: Nov-06 | I've yet to hear of a MeyerSound speaker failing because of a faulty amp. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 251 Registered: Apr-08 | Me neither! That doesn't mean it can't happen. I'm not saying you can't engineer around the problem either, especially at the higher end, but I have seen the correlation, direct or not. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1135 Registered: Nov-06 | so you admit that you have not seen a higher end self powered speaker fail because of the amp? I prove my point, at least in relation to the high end. Being that you have had "so many" amp failures with the powered monitors that you sell, perhaps you should start selling MeyerSound monitors, being that both of us have yet to hear of an issue with those :-P |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12614 Registered: May-04 | . "Me neither! That doesn't mean it can't happen." Forgodssake, fishy! And then you decry Gavin's logic as faulty?! You are a piece of work. If DS makes one call to his pro audio guy - and this thread ends on your ridiculous note - he can find out how reliable powered monitors are. I get the feeling he's left this thread far behind and I suggest everyone else do the same. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 252 Registered: Apr-08 | OMG, you should really take a course on logic. That didn't "prove" anything!!! Nor would it matter since those products aren't going into this bar, now are they? No wonder this country is screwed with logic like that. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 253 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, you too. If you recall, reliability wasn't the key reason against pro powered monitors, it was just one potential reason. The main ones remain wiring/setup complexity, cost, flexibility. But if you need to fix a powered monitor, especially one mounted on a wall, it's a bigger PITA than servicing a conventional amp or speaker, having had to deal with it. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1168 Registered: Apr-06 | "If you recall, reliability wasn't the key reason against pro powered monitors" But it is a reason that you've mentioned without any *evidence* outside of anecdotal references. If you have hard numbers from a reliable source, then we can go somewhere; however, claiming that powered monitors aren't as reliable because you've pulled out so many from various installation jobs isn't really proof of anything. "The main ones remain wiring/setup complexity" Yes, you need to run AC power to each speaker. Its not really a big topic of discussion; either it is possible or it isn't. However, I would suspect that setting up and placing four fairly robust professional grade powered speakers wouldn't be much more complex than setting up eight or more bookshelf speakers. It should also be noted that there are passive professional speakers which would also be better suited for this task than would a bunch of PSB bookshelf speakers. "cost" I would take two pairs of these... http://www.amazon.com/JBL-EON15P-1-Eon15P-1-Powered-Speaker/dp/B0002DVLW6 over your eight PSBs. Is it more costly? Barely, and it includes its own amplification. Will it take more abuse? Undoubtedly. "flexibility" Sure powered monitors aren't made of rubber, but I'm unsure how much flexibility one needs for a fixed installation in any event. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 255 Registered: Apr-08 | Stefan, I consider my anecdotal evidence better than pure belief any day. Those JBLs probably play louder, but won't sound as good an normal bar levels than the PSBs or most other consumer speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1169 Registered: Apr-06 | "Stefan, I consider my anecdotal evidence better than pure belief any day. " Perhaps; nonetheless in a forum environment, anecdotes, be it yours, mine, or Jan's, are not considered conclusive evidence. "Those JBLs probably play louder, but won't sound as good an normal bar levels than the PSBs or most other consumer speakers." Depends on what you define as "good sound". Most jazz aficionados probably wouldn't want to do critical listening on the JBLs, you're right. But I bet a fan of rock, heavy metal, pop, techno, or rap just might prefer what the JBLs can do over the PSBs. This of course glosses over the reality that in a bar environment, nuances that the PSBs might render versus the JBLs would largely be washed out by background noise and liquor. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1498 Registered: Jun-07 | I have never walked into a Night Club and seen anything but pro audio speakers that usually sound horrible, but nobody cares, as its so loud you can't talk or think, and you piss drunk and grinding so Hoe's. LOL Really, a bar environment should have some sort of Pro Equipment. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10184 Registered: Dec-04 | yup! If ony for their longevity and the ability to replace them as singles. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10185 Registered: Dec-04 | Dave, at some point, somebody is going to crank the hell out of the thing. Pro gear doesn't blow up real easy. Powered monitors are fused and protected within their own capabilities, not adapting to the power that passive speakers must conform to. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10186 Registered: Dec-04 | Plus, I have had beers thrown right at standmount powered monitors. Pick them up and play on...albeit not the same song twice... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12617 Registered: May-04 | . "Stefan, I consider my anecdotal evidence better than pure belief any day." Your anecdotal evidence forms and sustains your belief system, fishy. You have no "proof" other than your anecdotal evidence. Now, if you wish to allow anecdotal evidence as proof of "what is truth", then you will be forced to back down on our anecdotal evidence that various electronics sound better than others as well as cables and interconnects contributing to the preceived sound quality plus the existence of "PRaT". All those things which you "believe" exist only within your own anecdotal evidence file and they have already been largely discarded from ours. You can keep yours - no one here wants it other than fishysidekick (what shall we name him? "catfishyboy"?) - but do not put your grubby little paws on my belief system. All of those bits of anecdotal evidence we have collected exist as our proof that these things are true and do occur. Though I'm sure you will twist and turn this into your inimitable illogical logic, you cannot have this both ways. Yes, what passes for logic in this world is sad. You, fishy, are an audio jihadist with the same logic as a suicide bomber. I would like to point out DS is long gone. We are arguing over fishy's "anecdotal evidence" regarding the reliability of speakers with built in electronics. If DS doesn't care, why do you? Let this thread end. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10189 Registered: Dec-04 | 'Baitboy' |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 332 Registered: Mar-04 | "You can keep yours - no one here wants it other than fishysidekick (what shall we name him? "catfishyboy"?) - but do not put your grubby little paws on my belief system". Jan, your still playing the grandpa Munster role huh? What is wrong with questioning your belief system? Are you insecure or just getting old and suffering from the onset of dementia? Oh and they told me I was over the top when I referred to you as Stalin, but the Jihadist reference made me laugh. Oh Jan getting old must really be a drag. Now Nuck, I would think that you would be busy listening to your French Canadian jewelry instead of displaying your obtuseness. But I can always count on you Nuck, once a fool always a fool. You folks never fail to impress |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 729 Registered: Dec-06 | How about 'fishy chum'? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 334 Registered: Mar-04 | Hey, it's Ed Gein where have you been? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1500 Registered: Jun-07 | "Now Nuck, I would think that you would be busy listening to your French Canadian jewelry instead of displaying your obtuseness. But I can always count on you Nuck, once a fool always a fool. You folks never fail to impress" ID- Classe is built in Canada, but is part of the B&W group in the UK. Classe, as far as build quality, quality control, and presentation, is leaps and bounds better than NAD. Lets just hope nobody says anything bad about Canadians or I will have to become slightly angry. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1136 Registered: Nov-06 | I would recommend taking a look at the Alesis pro powered monitors. A martini-type bar I used to frequent in Syracuse uses them, and they sound fantastic. http://www.alesis.com |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 256 Registered: Apr-08 | Stefan, i'm not trying to conclusively 'prove' anything. I'm simply saying, IME, built in amps aren't nearly as reliable as separate amps. It's substantial enough that it exceeds luck. I am sure you can find instances where the opposite occurs, but after 15+ years, I can only really report what I've observed, but the difference has been substantial. As far as I'm concerned, these cheaper JBL, etc, PA speakers sound so awful that they're not even close to a PSB Alpha and while that may not matter, if you really don't need blistering PA levels and dynamic overhead, it's like buying a pickup as a commuter car. A subwoofer is all that it takes to put most any bookshelf well beyond the performance level of a PA speaker. The stack that Rush used sounded like a pair of Technics rack speakers. Maybe. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 257 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, the difference between something that works and something that doesn't because it's broken is a *little* more significant that the difference between the sound of two amps. Kind of like infinitely more. You are free to let the thread die if you like or you can throw out some more insults, whichever. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10192 Registered: Dec-04 | yup..Baitboy it is! |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 258 Registered: Apr-08 | Yep, it's so easy to bait the uneducated and illogical. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12620 Registered: May-04 | . "You are free to let the thread die if you like or you can throw out some more insults, whichever." "Yep, it's so easy to bait the uneducated and illogical." Yep! "Jan, the difference between something that works and something that doesn't because it's broken is a *little* more significant that the difference between the sound of two amps." The "difference" is no difference when they are both based on empirical, or what you admit is anecdotal in your case, evidence. No, fishy, you cannot have this both ways. You are illogical and you cannot hear. No insult, just fact. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 259 Registered: Apr-08 | It's funny, but i thought this was an audio forum, not www.democraticunderground.com |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12621 Registered: May-04 | . Get some sleep, fishy. You're making even less sense than usual. And stop with the swipes at other people's political beliefs. You're comments are typically cheap and childish but those are unnecessary and offensive to everyone. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1501 Registered: Jun-07 | We have know doubt in our minds that home audio sounds much better than the pro crap, but thats just not the point JA. The fact is the environment of a bar is not built to use hi-fi gear. IMO. I local sports bar here also uses powered Alesis speakers and they sound pretty good. Good call Gavin. I can think of another sports bar that use over 20 Yorkville powered monitors I think they are called, with great results. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 260 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, i can tell pretty much what you believe by how you argue. Rational people don't insult people when they disagree with them. You can't help yourself. Nick, I'm not saying that pro monitors are bad to use, just that it ups the hassle factor. That's not an issue if you have a 5-figure budget and a local service person. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1170 Registered: Apr-06 | "Stefan, i'm not trying to conclusively 'prove' anything." Then you are trying to inconclusively prove that powered pro speakers are less reliable than passive home speakers? Realistically, a pair of small, insensitive bookshelf speakers designed for home use just aren't going to be as robust as a pair of powered pro speakers designed from the ground up to take abuse. All it takes is one bar patron or employee whose had a few too many drinks playing with the volume control to make that distinction. "As far as I'm concerned, these cheaper JBL, etc, PA speakers sound so awful that they're not even close to a PSB Alpha and while that may not matter" Aside from the fact that a bar isn't exactly the place to do critical listening, it depends on the person as to which will sound better. Would it really shock you if someone preferred the slam of the JBLs over the finesse of the PSBs? "if you really don't need blistering PA levels and dynamic overhead, it's like buying a pickup as a commuter car." Now who is being inflexible? "As far as the question about volume, I want the ability to crank it up, even if I rarely do." Sounds to me like the OP wants that dynamic overhead. "A subwoofer is all that it takes to put most any bookshelf well beyond the performance level of a PA speaker." A properly integrated subwoofer can extend the frequency response of a bookshelf; it can't make it 10dB more sensitive, protect it from amplifier clipping, etc. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10195 Registered: Dec-04 | But then again, Cerwin Vega's are home speakers, right? They take abuse, and do not need a big amp. Just a thought. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 261 Registered: Apr-08 | Again, Stefan, not trying to 'prove' anything or be 'inflexible', just tell you what i've experienced. If other people have *actual* experiences that differ, i'd be interested in hearing them. Or actual data or *something* beyond 'well it makes sense to me' or 'it should be' or 'that's what they tell me'. You'd *think* that anything labeled 'pro' would be more reliable, but not necessarily. Outboard pro amps may be more reliable than a consumer amps overall but you can't then just jump to the conclusion that pro powered speakers are more reliable than consumer amps. IME, that hasn't been the case. Now, as amps become increasingly digital and 'smart' they may become so reliable and make the speaker so reliable that they will automatically last 50 years under any conditions, but we're not there yet. And if you use the right number of speakers, you can drive off even the drunks and still not blow the speakers. Given the choice between sheer volume and quality at a low price, i'll take the quality. You can get both if you spend enough, but I understand this to be a bar, not a dance club. If volume is the key, then lets all throw out that high-end gear and get PA speakers so we can be 'flexible' and have all that volume just in case we want to damage our ears. Keep in mind that with a pro speaker system, you might have to send in the amp in to service for weeks. With a conventional system, you can drop in another amp, most any amp to get you running. The amp board isn't usually available as a part to have sitting around often or, if it is, it's rather expensive. Further, swapping out a driver on a conventional speaker won't void your warranty, but it might on a pro model. The pro speakers I've experienced aren't that easy to fix by a normal person. So, even if the failure rate is the same, the consumer gear is just easier to deal with if there's a problem. Nuck, C-Vs indeed take abuse, though they do make lots of pro gear too. They're also getting better with my buddy Bill Bush running the engineering team. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12622 Registered: May-04 | . " Rational people don't insult people when they disagree with them. You can't help yourself." ROTFLMAO at fishy! |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 262 Registered: Apr-08 | Case in point ^ How old are you, BTW? Do you behave this way around other people your age? My guess is that you were called a lot of names in school and now you are 'getting even'. i mean, really, name calling is just beyond childish. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1171 Registered: Apr-06 | "Again, Stefan, not trying to 'prove' anything or be 'inflexible', just tell you what i've experienced." Then I would suggest dropping the reliability bit at this point. You have your experiences, but no real evidence to back up your position. And yes, the burden of proof lays with you, given that you're making the claim that professional grade speakers built to take abuse and be used in a variety of environments are not as reliable as bookshelf speakers made to fill a living room when both are applied to a 10000 cubic foot bar environment. "And if you use the right number of speakers, you can drive off even the drunks and still not blow the speakers." Increasing the number of speakers increases the cost and complexity, and decreases flexibility. Not the direction I would really recommend, but thats just me. "Given the choice between sheer volume and quality at a low price, i'll take the quality." Remember, bar with background noise. People aren't there for the music, and they aren't critically listening. Quality of the type that you're referring to can afford to take a back seat, at least IMO, and likely that of most bar owners and patrons as well. "Keep in mind that with a pro speaker system, you might have to send in the amp in to service for weeks." Thats why you have a dealer that can give you a loaner, and gives good support. "Further, swapping out a driver on a conventional speaker won't void your warranty, but it might on a pro model. " That depends on the manufacturer in both cases. "The pro speakers I've experienced aren't that easy to fix by a normal person." I doubt most bar owners are interested in fixing either regular speakers or pro speakers. They hand it off to the dealer for that. "but I understand this to be a bar, not a dance club. If volume is the key, then lets all throw out that high-end gear and get PA speakers so we can be 'flexible' and have all that volume just in case we want to damage our ears." Ahh to the crux of it! It sounded like the owner wanted that ability, but since he's gone, we can't really say much else. As such, I've said all I really can, and I'll take my leave of this thread, unless you have some stirring new argument. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 263 Registered: Apr-08 | Stefan, all you have to do is follow along with what I'm saying and stop worrying about what I'm not saying. First, I brought up reliability once. You and Jan are the ones that want to refute it my anecdote without an anecdote of your own, just supposition. You "suppose" that pro monitors "should" be more reliable, therefore, you "assume" that they are. My experience is valid, but whether it directly applies or not is unknown. It's just input for someone to roll around in their head. Second, increasing the number of speakers doesn't decrease flexibility at all. If you lose one speaker, that's 1/8th the system, not 1/4 or 1/2. Further, you get much better distribution of sound with multiple speakers, so high volumes aren't necessary. You can reduce the needed power output per speaker substantially with more speakers! Third, we just did a high-end bar where there is live music. The commercial system had to be yanked because it sounded so inferior to the live music, even through a PA speaker, that customers and employees complained. Now they LOVE the system, it plays stupidly loud and has been dead solid reliable. Fourth - Sure, a dealer can give you good support, for a price, but also notice that Dave said he knew enough about this stuff to handle it. I'm pretty sure he could fix a tweeter. This wasn't some rich guy with money to blow and no hands on experience or involvement. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 733 Registered: Dec-06 | "...unless you have some stirring new argument." lol...Stephen, you're talking to a door knob. Don't hold your breath. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 264 Registered: Apr-08 | ^ Just one more reason this forum has so few long term members and so many 1 or 2 time posters. Some of you folks don't even bother to give *bad* advice, just show up for the insults? Goodness, please grow up. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1172 Registered: Apr-06 | "You "suppose" that pro monitors "should" be more reliable, therefore, you "assume" that they are." No. I "suppose" that speakers which are built to handle higher volumes will be more effective and reliable reproducing such volumes than a bunch of PSB bookshelf speakers rigged together. The JBLs I posted are rated to reproduce 120dB worth of sound continuously with 127dB peaks. The PSB bookshelves simply aren't in that ballpark (unless you stack all eight together), and if you try to push them to be, they *will* fail. Now again, this comes down to what the owner expects. But either way, if he wants party volumes, even if just sometimes, he's going to need something a heck of a lot more robust than some B15s. Of course, for fun, I decided to look up warranty information for JBL Pro, and they run a five year warranty on speakers and three year on amplifiers, so I suspect that should alleviate significant concerns about reliability for all but the most @nal retentive. "Second, increasing the number of speakers doesn't decrease flexibility at all." Depends on how you define flexible I suppose. If you want to reinforce a different location for say, a dance floor, its a lot easier to move one monitor than it is to move four, but that's just my opinion. "Third, we just did a high-end bar where there is live music....and has been dead solid reliable." Ok...I'm curious how one gauges reliability after a short period of time, but Ok... "I'm pretty sure he could fix a tweeter." There's a supposition for you! |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 734 Registered: Dec-06 | "...Some of you folks don't even bother to give *bad* advice..." Now I see why he's here. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 265 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, then following that logic, wouldn't you want a system that can do 140dB? What about 160dB? Weaponized speakers. It all comes down to balancing performance, value, ease of install and maintenance. Stefan, I actually do this for a living. I know that never seems to count for much on a forum where everyone wants to feel like they're an expert just because they have a stereo, but I have experiences that others here will never have. When you do a system, the chances of it being blown are higher in the first few months because you have people messing with the system, etc. However, we've had systems out there for 10 or 15 years that have never failed. We've had the occasional amp failure where we can whisk in, drop in another amp and leave. We don't have to pull down a speaker, take it away, take out the amp, send it back, wait 3 weeks, reinstall the amp, then take it back to the bar and rehang the speaker. The way we do it is easier for us and keeps the system working more often and longer. I don't recall any speaker failures in any of our commercial installs and only a couple of amplifiers out of dozens and dozens of systems and many of them being 5-15 years old. My brother is an IT guy. While I screw around with networking, he's got more networking experience in any given week than I get in a year. Isn't it annoying when people who have never done your job tell you how to do it or tell you that they know the answer and you don't? I don't tell my brother what he doesn't know about networking, he doesn't tell me what I don't know about audio. It works. I don't recall there being a dance floor in this bar. I think he said something about mostly low volume levels. Most bookshelf speakers can easily handle anything short of a disco or live music. The needs of a speaker to handle live music, feedback, large peaks out of nowhere is important. But recorded music is heavily compressed and bookshelf speakers handle that all day long, even at near ear splitting volumes. Heck, even my main competitor puts B&Ws throughout all the bars they've done and they're working fine and many have been there for 10-20 years. Anybody with a screwdriver and a pair of needle nose pliers can swap a tweeter on the typical bookshelf. It's not a big leap to assume Dave can do that if it were to happen. About the only thing that kills good bookshelf speakers with recorded music , especially with a sub in the mix, is obvious distortion going unheeded for long periods of time. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 214 Registered: Oct-07 | All things being equal, more complicated machines fail more often. The measure used is MTBF, Mean Time Between Failures. It is a common measure used in the electronics industry. A powered speaker should fail more often than an unpowered speaker, if built to the same quality standards. It is more complex. However, PRO stuff is also built with a better, more robust parts list and to (hopefully) a higher standard. You pay for it, too. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 266 Registered: Apr-08 | ^ Nice summation ^ You have to spend quite a bit to get the pro stuff to match some of the less expensive consumer options. I have nothing against pro gear per se, but it is pricey for what you get. As an example, the NHT M-00 is $500 and we've sold a few of them. But we could sell their SB1 driven by a Sherbourn amp for $500 too, and the SB1 was more robust (zero failures, knock on wood), as are the Sherbourn amps, the quality of sound was notably better, the output was better (better drivers with more power handling), the bass was deeper, the finish was nicer, and it was a lot less complicated to install and maintain. The only real upside to the M-00 was really the industrial case. We had more failures with the few M-00s we sold than all of the SB1 and associated amps, of which, we sold at least 10-20 times as many. We've probably had 10% failures over the past 5-10 years with subwoofer plate amps, but only about 1% failure with outboard sub amps. Does this apply to every manufacturer, every product combination? Probably not. Is it *necessarily* due to heat and/or vibration? Or complexity? Maybe not, but one might expect at least some correlation. Vibration isolation is a big deal with any circuit board based product. Military oriented products have to have huge isolation from and/or immunity to vibration and temperature swings, which is one of the many reasons why military stuff costs so darned much. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1173 Registered: Apr-06 | How loud of a system one gets depends on what the clientele wants in the end, and what they feel is sufficiently loud. Since we don't really know one way or the other, its hard to say, isn't it? However, one thing I do know is that I've never had any problems having a little additional headroom both for peace of mind and so I can turn it to 11 if needed on those rare occasions. Now, as far as your ability to simply whisk in and replace an amp, I'm curious what stops the dealer of an active loudspeaker to whisk in and replace the speaker? I smell a double standard there. Also, please note that I'm not saying the systems you put together are inherently unreliable either. So long as the system is designed properly around the client's needs, I would expect it to have some degree of reliability. And in regards to the dance floor, it wasn't mentioned specifically, but thats a part of flexibility. Now here is a question for you, as I am curious: Would PSB honor the warranty on a bookshelf speaker used to party in a bar if they found out how it was used, or would that fall into the category of "abuse". |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 267 Registered: Apr-08 | PSB's warranty replacement is based on their motto of "be reasonable". They know that 90%+ of failures are due to abuse, but as long as it's not continual problems, they'll cover it. Once they start to see it repeat a few times, then they warn people that further failures can't be covered as it's not a product flaw. However, it's never come up. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1174 Registered: Apr-06 | Leo: The problem is that while an active speaker is more complex than a passive speaker, all things are *not* created equal. First, there is a big difference in having amplifiers mated to individual drivers versus having an amplifier have to slog through a crossover and then get to the drivers. This is significant advantage in terms of efficiency, and why active loudspeakers are hard to beat in terms of output. Moreover, having the amplifier and drivers designed in tandem and optimized for one another is a significant advantage, qualitatively. There is also the simple fact that Pro active speakers tend to be built with durability in mind, and have circuitry to protect them from blowing, as well as protection from outside forces (drunks) that most home speakers tend not to have. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 268 Registered: Apr-08 | And......"you pay for it too". No one is disputing that. I'm just looking at the bottom line. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10197 Registered: Dec-04 | These products also are generally interfaced with balanced connections, removing rca's(ugh) from the equation. We might want to call up Paul and Sue Barton and see about the warranty in a bar setup. Last time I talked to Paul, he was getting annoyed with warranty issues. Buy the powered stuff. I have never,ever blown up a pro piece, including Crown and Behringer, which would be suspect due to price. Band stuff is another matter. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1175 Registered: Apr-06 | "No one is disputing that. I'm just looking at the bottom line." Certainly a decent pro active speaker isn't ultra cheap, but they aren't necessarily exorbitantly expensive either. The JBL's I posted as a simple example could easily fit within the budget you provided (speakers *and* amplification are included for 1800). I've seen DJ's use them at weddings and parties; while they won't drive me to replace my stereo, they were sufficient for the task at hand, and nobody complained about the poor sound quality. I do think though that Mr. Moo from NHT is a ripoff even in the realm of active speakers, and I am curious how much of an effect it has had on your perception of active/pro speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 269 Registered: Apr-08 | Nuck, we wouldn't know, we don't have much in the way of warranty issues. Customer poked out a tweeter a few months ago, but I paid for that one. Stefan, I complained about the poor sound quality! God, I hate those events. Sound drives me crazy most of the time. What's the point of cranking the sound if it's just that much more obnoxious? |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1176 Registered: Apr-06 | Then I suspect you're a lot more discerning and have higher expectations than the average joe going to his local bar to have a few drinks. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12623 Registered: May-04 | . " You and Jan are the ones that want to refute it my anecdote without an anecdote of your own" Aaaaaaaawwww, stop it. You're killin' me. ROTFL&L&L&L&L&L Geeeeeeez, what you try to pass off as even halfassed logic is pathetic, fishy. Still ROTFLLLLLLLLLLLL} . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 270 Registered: Apr-08 | Stefan, and guess why my standards for bar systems are so high! Jan, I don't think you should be using words like 'pathetic', being in a glass house and all. Don't you have some old ladies down the street with whom you can play bingo or something? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1504 Registered: Jun-07 | I wonder what Dave S actually purchased?lol He said he got all the electronics just needed the speakers. What did you buy DAVE? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10198 Registered: Dec-04 | 'Dave's not here, man.' |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12624 Registered: May-04 | . " Rational people don't insult people when they disagree with them. You can't help yourself." "Jan, I don't think you should be using words like 'pathetic', being in a glass house and all. Don't you have some old ladies down the street with whom you can play bingo or something?" ROTFL&L&L&L&L&L Yep, laughing at fishy! L&L&L&L&L . |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 912 Registered: Feb-07 | Dave's here. Just not that Dave... |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1279 Registered: May-06 | CHONG: Who is it? CHEECH: It's me, Dave. Open up, man, I got the stuff. (More knocks) CHONG: Who is it? CHEECH: It's me, Dave, man. Open up, I got the stuff. CHONG: Who? CHEECH: It's, Dave, man. Open up, I think the cops saw me come in here. (More knocks) CHONG: Who is it? CHEECH: It's, Dave, man. Will you open up, I got the stuff with me. CHONG: Who? CHEECH: Dave, man. Open up. CHONG: Dave? CHEECH: Yeah, Dave. C'mon, man, open up, I think the cops saw me. CHONG: Dave's not here. CHEECH: No, man, I'm Dave, man. (Sharp knocks at the door) CHEECH: Hey, c'mon, man. CHONG: Who is it? CHEECH: It's Dave, man. Will you open up? I got the stuff with me. CHONG: Who? CHEECH: Dave, man. Open up. CHONG: Dave? CHEECH: Yeah, Dave. CHONG: Dave's not here. CHEECH: What the hell? No, man, I am Dave, man. Will you... (More knocks) CHEECH: C'mon! Open up the door, will you? I got the stuff with me, I think the cops saw me. CHONG: Who is it? CHEECH: Oh, what the hell is it...c'mon. Open up the door! It's Dave! CHONG: Who? CHEECH: Dave! D-A-V-E! Will you open up the goddam door! CHONG: Dave? CHEECH: Yeah, Dave! CHONG: Dave? CHEECH: Right, man. Dave. Now will you open up the door? CHONG: Dave's not here |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 30 Registered: Apr-08 | Wow, This thread degenerated quickly. "fishy"??? What is up with this woman? What is the point of her repeatedly calling someone names? It definitely does not help your argument, all though it does make it very easy to dismiss. I can only imagine she is trying to pad the ridiculous number of posts she's authored. 10,000 posts? Get a boyfriend. Props to John for not sinking to the level of children. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 313 Registered: Jul-07 | Patrick, this thread's been dead for nearly a week. Thanks for reviving it with your helpful commentary. I find it interesting how people take issue with what they see as insults, by hurling more insults. Ironic isn't it. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1523 Registered: Jun-07 | Dave Smuckler has not posted in ages. This thread is done. Lets move on. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10248 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan has already done your boyfriend,Pat. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12647 Registered: May-04 | . PS (how appropriate) - You can go back to fishy's forum now. |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 34 Registered: Apr-08 | Firstly, i honestly thought Jan was a chick. oops. is that so hard to believe? Secondly, given Jan's comments how could I not assume he was a immature teenage girl? Thirdly, Nuck, hilarious.  Lastly, very sorry to have resurrected this thread, temporary insanity. I fairly sure this didn't belong in the "Home Audio" section anyway. Jan we'll just call you "bitchey". |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 744 Registered: Dec-06 | uh, Pat....what's yer point? |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1177 Registered: Apr-06 | I'm curious what maturity and wisdom you feel you're bringing to the table here Pat. Certainly hurling insults at forum members you know little or nothing about except their input on one thread doesn't qualify as exceptionally mature. |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 35 Registered: Apr-08 | Stryvn, "uh, Pat....what's yer point?" My point(s) are directly above your post. Stephen, I was genuinely apologizing. and I wasn't hurling any insults in the least. The exact opposite in fact. I was criticizing Jan for doing exactly that, by calling the guy "fishy" ad nauseum. My "Bitchey" comment was to be a joke. Not funny i suppose. I will quote myself on the way out the door, as it hits me in the rear, "Lastly, very sorry to have resurrected this thread, temporary insanity. I fairly sure this didn't belong in the "Home Audio" section anyway. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 746 Registered: Dec-06 | I re-read everything directly above my post, Pat. I still don't see your point. Bye. |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 37 Registered: Apr-08 | Strvyn, I cant help you there. My initial comments were a reply to Chris H. He said: "Patrick, this thread's been dead for nearly a week. Thanks for reviving it with your helpful commentary. I find it interesting how people take issue with what they see as insults, by hurling more insults. Ironic isn't it." Hence my comments. Offering an apology for making a mistake, and defending John who was getting trashed for no apparent reason. And mostly for reviving a virtually pointless thread. Everyone has their opinions and here is a good place to air them. If you cannot see, or understand my point, perhaps I dont have one. I thought you guys wanted this thread to die? It surely has no use now. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10251 Registered: Dec-04 | Ok, PS. Let's get going on another fun music topic. Black Crowes |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1530 Registered: Jun-07 | Good album. |
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New member Username: BigdavveTampa, FL Post Number: 3 Registered: Apr-08 | Wow, things got a little out of hand on this one! Thanks to everyone who posted ADVICE, I am going to go with pro gear, it just seems like it was designed more for the type of abuse it will be taking. I have been looking into JBL and EV loudspeakers as well as Crest and Crown amps. I have looked into the powered speaker idea, the only problem with that is that I'd have to run AC power to each speaker, which wouldn't be too big of a problem, but if I ever want to move the speakers for any reason, I'd have to either tear open the walls of run ugly conduit all over the place. Thanks again! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1538 Registered: Jun-07 | Dave- Very good choice on going with Pro Gear, and brands to take a look at. I hope all goes well. Have fun. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12654 Registered: May-04 | . In your op you stated you have about 900 square feet to fill. Just curious why you think you would want to move the speakers more than a few feet as there aren't many options within that amount of space. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 275 Registered: Apr-08 | Dave, we just installed EV speakers into a bar, finishing a job left undone by the previous installer. I can definitely say they're not as good as the 'home' speakers we were going to put in for the same or less money. They're.....'okay', but not nearly as good as what we do normally. To me, they seem like what one would find at Wal-mart or Target. Crest? As in toothpaste? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 276 Registered: Apr-08 | IOW, I'm just saying maybe the JBL and Crown stuff is better. Hopefully. Seriously never heard of Crest. The EV stuff sounded, well, really mediocre for the price. Don't know if it is any more durable, but we've had only one driver failure in 15 years that I can remember with regular old home gear. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1544 Registered: Jun-07 | The Crown stuff is known to last forever. Tons of professional installs have the Crown amps. IMO I think Dave is going down the right path for this install. Home audio stuff will always sound much better than pro stuff. But for this current installation he has to look further than just sound quality. Most importantly, as the customer, he wants Crown and JBL pro equipment. Therefore, he should be sold just that. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 277 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, I agreed with you right up til the last two sentences. I've found that just selling people what they want is rarely in the customer's best interest. This is a perfect example of home audio getting scapegoated out of perception vs reality. The reliability on good home gear is pretty amazing these days, especially with respect to speakers. Not saying he should do a u-turn necessarily, but I think a good chunk of this decision is being made on perception vs reality, exactly what happened at the bar we are having to finish. They could have had a much better system for the same amount of money and, i wager, just as reliable. There's no 'magic' in building a reliable product and calling it 'professional' is about as illuminating as calling something 'hi-fi'. A company could *easily* repackage a home product as 'pro' and vice versa with the change of a label or cabinet. Buying JBL and Crown is 'safe', not necessarily 'better'. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 320 Registered: Jul-07 | "I've found that just selling people what they want is rarely in the customer's best interest." Wow. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1545 Registered: Jun-07 | "The reliability on good home gear is pretty amazing these days, especially with respect to speakers" -Absolutely, I agree. But if I was in a bar, and I took my beer bottle and threw a fastball at a PSB Alpha, I am going to destroy it. Hard. lol. Professional line of JBL, has a much better chance of taking my fastball with authority. "They could have had a much better system for the same amount of money and, i wager, just as reliable" -Sound better, yes. More reliable? Not if I smashed my beer bottle off it. John, I can throw a beer bottle pretty damn hard.lol "There's no 'magic' in building a reliable product and calling it 'professional' is about as illuminating as calling something 'hi-fi'." -There is when the speaker is made up of rubber and metal. Not veneer(spelling?) "Buying JBL and Crown is 'safe', not necessarily 'better'." -Perhaps, but when it comes to a bar installation, safe should be the number one priority. |
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