I recently purchased Spendor S8e speakers to replace Acoustic Energy AE1 MkIII. My current amplification is Arcam FMJ A32 integrated. Am thinking of replacing the Arcam with either Rega Mira 3 or Naim Nait 5i. Has anyone heard the Spendor S8e/Rega or Spendor S8e/Naim Nait 5i combination?? My primary source is Arcam CD82T. Looking for more warmth and fuller midrange than my previous Arcam FMJ/Acoustic Energy combination. Are the Rega or Naim enough juice for the Spendors at a moderate listening level - - mostly small ensemble jazz and classical music? Seldom listen to electronic music. Speaker cables are Nordost Flatline Gold.
Let me start by saying that you have very nice speakers. The S8e's are probably the best speaker in the range. Naim is classically a very good match for the Spendors. If changing to Naim I would change out both the amp and the source and go with Naim interconnects and speaker cable...Nordost...not so much.
However keep in mind that Naim ain't what I'd call warm sounding gear.
It's my opinion that the Rega, good amp that it is, isn't up to the task with your speakers. They couldn't do your low end drivers justice...trust me I like the amp...it's my primary amp in my main system. However what is...is.
Neither the Naim nor the Rega have the warmth you claim you're looking for.
I am surprised at what you're considering. In many ways, moving from the A32 to the Nait5i or Mira would be a retrograde step. The A32 is a fine amplifier, and actually a touch on the warm side.. So too is the CD82T, and the Spendors are not renowned for being bright.
In my opinion, your problem stems from that Nordost cable. most people around here know that I am a true devotee of the Nordost Bashing Club. I hate the stuff. I find it clean, clinical, stilted and boring and in my view it ruins every single system I've heard it in.
So...you could say I'm biased, but the results you describe and my experience tell me that the cable is holding your system back. Now, if you go for other cables you may lose some resolution or some of that clean bite you get with the Nordost, but hopefully you'll get some slam and attack back. Have a look at the Chord or Townshend brands for a good match with Arcam.
After that, I'd say your weakest link is the CD player. The CD82T is a reasonable machine for a relatively high cost. In other words I believe it's OK but not for the price. Inserting something like a Rega Apollo or one of the better Creeks, a Naim CD5i ir CD5x, or indeed the Arcam FMJ player would bring you many benefits.
Art - - thanks for your candid assessment. I should have stated in my post that I have not yet received the Spendors. In fact, I am told that they are shipping via air freight from England today (Friday) - so hoping to get them here in California in about a week. During my discussions with the dealer from whom I purchased the speakers, he thought that either the Naim Nait 5i or the Rega Mira 3 would drive the S8e's ok since they are not a big load being only a two-way speaker of reasonable efficiency. But, I respect your view that the Rega might just not be enough. In any case, I plan to carefully assess the Arcam -Spendor system soon.
Frank - - I hear ya regarding the Nordost cables. I have located a source here for The Chord Company cables and may try those cables depending on how the new combination sounds to me. Thanks to you too for your opinion on the matter. I have read a lot of good things about the Rega Apollo, so will try the get a listen of that too. Turns out that my local dealer here in California only sells British gear! So - he has them all and has been selling Naim and Spendor for nearly 30 years. He has characterized the Rega Mira as "slightly warmer" sounding than the Naim Nait 5i. Would you agree with that assessment and do you think either the Rega or the Naim have the juice to drive the Spendors? When I auditioned the spendors, they were driven by the latest LFD integrated. Sounded great. It was, I believe, only 50 Wpc. Thanks guys!
I've heard the Naim drive the Spendor's so I know it can do it well...the Rega not so much. It'll drive them but you wont't benefit as much from it as you would the Naim.
Really the best thing to do is listen to all of the combinations and tell us what you think.
If a local dealer has all of that wonderful gear I would take advantage of that and talk with them. They should have some expertise as they have been selling that gear probably for years.
Whereabouts are you at Walt?
I agree with Frank about the Nordost and I would and van den Hul to the list of potential cables if you don't go with Naim.
If you can, try the Mira with Spendor's I'd love to hear your feedback.
Maybe I will stick with the Arcam FMJ A32. I'm expecting delivery of the Spendors from UK within the next week sometime. Will update this thread soon as I've had a few hours of listening.
Don't think of changing anything until those Spendors have been setup, run in and allowed to settle for a while. I'm talking at least 3 weeks, even if you leave it on all the time playing all the while.
After that if you're not happy, you can identify exactly where and how your system is letting you down and then make the call on whether to change anything.
It so happens I am a Naim dealer in my spare time. I really don't get on with Nordost in most systems, but mst especially in Naim systems. The aims of the two brands seem diametrically opposed. The best cable for Naim amps is Naim cable in my view. Your dealer will almost certainly disagree with me on this. Most American dealers seem to prefer a warmer, easier presentation.
I haven't had enough expoisure to the Spendors to know if the Mira would drive the 8e's. I do know that the 8's are easier to drive than the 5's so it's probable that both Mira and Nait could possibly drive them, but I wouldn't expect this to be the best way to spend the cash. I'd go lighter on speakers and heavier on electronics, but again, this could be a culture thing. American systems often seem to have higher spec speakers than I would normally use.
The A32 will probably drive the 8's with absolutely no problems. It's a quite a beefy amp.
Thanks for your added comments Frank. I will heed your advice about not making any quick decisions about the Arcam. I will let the Spendors run for a few weeks first. The dealer from which I purchased the Spendors has been a Naim dealer since his business began in 1979. Naturally, he is recommending I try the Naim Nait 5i. If I were to go that way, how would I solve the subwoofer drive matter? I suppose I could drive it by using the Velodyne SPL1000R's speaker level inputs. This would require both the speakers and the sub to attach to the same posts on the back of the amp. See any problem with that?
My disatifaction with current Acoustic Energy AE1 MkIII speakers is that the they sound too clinical. No warmth at all. Especially the mids seem way to dry.
I do see an issue there actually. It's not serious but for best results don't attach to the amp's outputs, but attach to the speaker terminals instead. This appears to the amp as simply a slightly longer set of speaker cables, whereas by attaching to the amp, the amp sees a quasi biwire scenario (not quite since the sub input is high impedance but still...).
Frank - - Thanks again for your advice. Would the difference between the two solutions be audible? If not, and I do connect to the amp's speaker outputs, could it damage the amplifier in some way? - - don't want that! Any thoughts about what wire to connect from speaker terminals to the sub's high-level input? I am thinking 18 gauge solid core copper. Or is that a poor choice? Also, I am assuming I need to extend the connection from BOTH speakers to the sub's right and left connections.
As a separate question, I have read an opinion that it is better to connect to a subwoofer's high-level inputs than the line-level inputs. The resulting sub performance is said to be better. Do you agree with that notion?
Hi Walt. You will not damage the amp in either configuration, I think Frank is dealing in absolutes on this one, however I do not recommend using solid core wire in any aoolication! It's qualities are unknown, and I have had amps shut down for the impedence that these wires present. The same was said of a set of Kimbers I tried a ways back, a set of solid twisted pairs(8c?) that just would not work.
Runs from both left and right are correct, although in hard fact, low bass is in mono. Run both from the speakers to the sub's high level inputs. Keep the runs of equal length.
I run high level to the sub, because I have no choice. This is where the quality of the sub exposes itself. The XO of the sub should filter anything else out.
Yes, Nuck is correct that I'm dealing in absolutes here. The difference is not huge, just there, and of course, it's a free thing to try.
If you remain with the Arcam amplifier, solid core should be just fine. Arcam buffer their amplifier outputs so you shouldn't need to worry, unless the caopacitance of the cable were really very high, which is unlikely. In the case of a Naim amplifier, I would not go with solid core since I ahve not had good results with that generally speaking, but then the only cable I ever recommend with Naim amps is Naim's own because in extensive testing over a decade I haven't found anything better. Incidentally, the aural improvement of not affixing the sub wires to the amplifier outputs on a Nait are more obvious than with the Arcam, not because the Naim is better (it is, but that's beside the point), but because the Naim is a little more finicky about the load presented to it.
Since my sub sits to the left (slightly) of the left speaker, that means that the cable run from the right speaker to the sub's high-level input will be rather long - estimate 12 feet. If I follow the rule of equal length then the left cable will need to be coiled up and hide behind the subwoofer. I 'spose nothing is hurt by that.
Also-Frank, please expound on your comment that, in your opinion, the Naim Nait 5i is "better" than the Arcam FMJ A32. I am thinking also that it might be true. My Naim dealer hints at the same thing but also sells Arcam so he doesn't want to trash my decision earlier to by Arcam. The A32 cost approx $2500 in 2004 and today the Naim is $1700. Arcam 100Wpc vs Naim 50Wpc. Since I do not generally play at a high level, perhaps the Naim would be livable-especially if it yielded a timbrally more rich sound.
What do you think? Stick with the A32? .....or dump it for the Naim Nait 5i?
I think you're barking up the wrong tree. In the scheme of which part of your system is the weakest link, I'd point at the CD82T.
On the actual question you posed, I prefer the Naim amp and I also deal in both Arcam and Naim. This is a question of personal preference however since I'm a big Naim fan and Naim makes music in a very different way to Arcam (or, indeed, most brands).
Arcam have just released their new FMJ'd A38. In our opinion, it's not really any better than the A32 and if anything is a bit too smooth and a bit too relaxed - a bit like th epresentation of your CD82T.
You're in luck really. Your dealer has both brands. I suggest you have a demo, but demo both items. Take in your CD82T and A32. Get him to set up a Naim CD5i and Nait5i (note the italics, these are new models just a few months old and significantly better than the older models). Then ask him to play your CD82T through the Nait5i and the CD5i through your A32. Always use the S8es of course.
If you want a real shock, listen to the Naims in combination after you've done the above comparison (and decided the CD player is the way to go ). All the warm nice stuff will go but it'll be replaced by a different approach. You may decide that the difference in approach is what you're after, and in this case your choice of how to upgrade is already made for you. You may decide it's not a what you're after. If so, then Naim is not for you and you should look at alternative brands which don't do the Naim thing but do more of the Arcam thing with knobs on.
Now how's that for a suggestion? If he's any good, he'll be very happy to show you what a Naim system can do since the Naim upgrade path is very clear and very very long! I'm a dealer and I'm still only halfway along, having just ordered myself a new amp!
Oh, and for Goodness sake don't let him play you the better stuff! That way lies the road to ruin.
Frank - good idea - I shall pursue it! My dealer has been a Naim dealer for 30 years and is, as you'd imagine, a strong advocate of the Naim sound. When I asked him about the Rega Mira 3 vs. the Nait 5i, he leaned to the Nait 5i saying that he felt the Rega was a 'sweeter' sound-maybe a little too much that way.
I will listen the Nait combination as you suggest. He too has warned about listening to the higher-end Naim stuff lest I drain my bank account! Thanks again Frank!
I am enjoying this thread Walt. Frank is a straight shooter and a very well educated listener. The Naimis best heard if you like a 'wall of sound' presentation, and does Rock and Roll very very enjoyably.
Interesting! I would have said the Naim is the sweeter of the two, and if anything it was the Rega which pares everything back to the bare bones. It's a bit like wine - some people prefer the dry red, some prefer the soft and some prefer the fruity.
In my view, and this is definitely not shared by Rega proponents of which there are many, the Naim brings extra dimensions to the party over the Rega. I admit, I don't get it when a Rega person prefers that presentation over the Naim. I hear what the Rega is doing and appreciate it for that, especially since it is so much better than so much else on the market, but when I hear a Naim component, I read more deeply into the music. The odd thing os that 'Rega people' just don't get the Naim thing at all, and actively dislike its presentation, so go figure!
The strangest thing is that both brands come from the same place, putting emphasis on the pace rhythm and timing of the music. You'd think that with such similar approaches there wouldn't be such strong dissent between the respective camps.
Nuck, thanks for the kind words. I, too, have heard Naim murder the occasional piece, especially older 'olive' Naim which was a bit more all-or-nothing. The newer stuff is far better balanced. Then again, I cut my teeth on olive stuff and loved the way it did classical music so...<shrug>!
Nuck/Frank, It's probably as you say (Frank), referring to your wine analogy - -our hobby sometimes misses the fact that the way things sound to one person may (and are likely to)sound unpleasant to another. As a former performing musician (mostly orchestral settings), overlooked is the fact that musical instruments themselves vary widely in timbre and 'sound'. Compare for example John Coltrane's somewhat thin sound to Dexter Gordon's deep rich woody sound. Two different persons playing two different make instruments using reeds of (likely)differing thickness. (my brother could not play his clarinet at all with certain reeds!). I recall while attending the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music hearing passionate arguments between French horn players regarding the aural quality of silver horns vs. brass horns. Oh-and what about differences in the individual musicians' technic and skill that has such a dramatic effect on sound (no two cellists sound alike!). So--here in our audio swirl, we (and I include myself) are constantly caught up in comparing 'sounds'. Oh - and I also forgot to include the wide variance in recording quality and media! It's no wonder we roam from one thing to another. When I originally purchased my Acoustic Energy AE1 MkIII speakers, I was determined to find the most detailed presentation possible. I stated that goal to my dealer. He delivered. Now......only four years later, I am seeking a more relaxed presentation! To that end, I just purchased the Spendor S8e speakers (yet to arrive from UK). So-in pursuit of this mystical 'more relaxed sound' that I seek, I am in the amplifier search! Oh well.....it keeps me occupied.....and makes my audio dealer happy I will wait and give the Arcam FMJ A32 a chance to prove acceptable.
By the way-and as a side note and quasi-news item-my speakers are delayed from the UK because there is a temporary cessation of importation of Spendor loudspeakers into the USA as they are changing their distributor here after quite a few years. I am assured that I WILL get the speakers [somehow!]. So - 55 years into this hobby, I march on - still happily in pursuit of what sounds 'right' at a moment in my life!
Hehe, such is life, is it not? My wife used to play the clarinet and would throw out half the reeds in a box, all made the same way off a line and yet some would sound great (and I mean GREAT!) and some would sound awful. And of course, she can always tell if someone's using a plastic reed...
This is all very well, but it has more to do with the mechanics of the sound that's produced, rather than the music being played.
I can certainly appreciate why you went for the most detailed solution you could find. Once the musician begins playing the instrument, the music takes over and it's the emotion of the piece, brought about by some weird combination of musicianship, composer's intent, manufacture of instrument and playing style which lends an extra dimension to the experience of listening, which is quite different to that of playing of course.
Well Frank - - my Spendor S8e speakers have finally arrived! Once they left UK, it only took two days for them to get to California. It's a long story (the long delay)...but I brought them home last Saturday and immediately hooked them up into my system. WOW! They sound wondeful-they exceed my expectations. The most dramatic difference is in the clarity in the midrange (all reviews I have read say the same thing). My dealer who is also a Naim dealer has offered to let me try the Naim Nait 5i-2 anytime I wish. I told him that I would stick with the Arcam FMJ for about a month until I get used to the sound with the new speakers. Then, I will decide if I want to venture into another direction with the Naim for a trial. Thus far, the Arcam + Spendor combination is sounding really quite good. Most noticeable is with cello, viola, woodwind instruments, and vocals-especially mass choir or chorale groups.
As others have stated, the speakers don't 'grate' on your ears after long listening sessions as well.
Anyway....thought you would be interested to get my first reactions. I 'spose the speakers will take some time to fully break in....but we'll see.
Thanks again to you and the others that have rendered your opinions in this thread.
Bear in mind that Arcam have just released the A38 and it's really very good indeed. If you consider changing your amplifier, put it on your list.
That said, I now think the weakest link is your CD82T. Arcam's new (cheaper) CD17 already knocks that into a cocked hat for life and enjoyment so consider a change of CD player too.
An update to my situation: Last week, I purchased and installed new speaker cables. I got Stereovox Firebird. They made a very noticeable improvement! Mainly in clarity of the inner detail in the mids....also much more solid base! So - - I will leave this configuration alone for some more years......
The new speaker cables replace Nordost Superflatline Gold Mk II.
). All the warm nice stuff will go but it'll be replaced by a different approach. You may decide that the difference in approach is what you're after, and in this case your choice of how to upgrade is already made for you. You may decide it's not a what you're after. If so, then Naim is not for you and you should look at alternative brands which don't do the Naim thing but do more of the Arcam thing with knobs on.