Looking for a turntable to replace my Rega P1
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 1 Registered: Jan-08 | I want a new turntable that will beat my NAD C542 cd player. Vinyl is my preferred medium, so I want it to sound better than my CDs. I recently upgraded my Rega P1 with an Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge (replacing a Ortofon OM5E) - what a difference. Tighter and deeper bass and much cleaner sound. But when I bought my NAD C542 cd player, I realized that I'm missing a lot of details and dynamics. Using the QED Silver Spiral interconnect cable on the NAD C542 really opened up the sound and tightened up the bass a whole lot. It is very tight, a little warm, and not too bright - a true pleasure to listen to. Now my LPs sound dull and boring, missing a lot of details. Even with audiophile 180 g LPs. How can I get that lovely tight, deep, detailed sound from my LPs as I do from my CDs? I would like to spend a maximum of $1000 on a turntable. In the beginning I will use the 2M Blue until I feel the need for upgrading the cartridge. Is it possible to get a turntable that will with no doubt sound better than my cd player within my budget? If so (or not), please recommend a turntable (eventually a matching cartridge if you think).  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6109 Registered: Feb-05 | Have you decided against the P3-24. You are the same fella with the question over at AK are you not? Honestly I have to wonder about your setup...that P1 should give the C542 a good run. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6112 Registered: Feb-05 | Check the last response to your thread at AK Peter... |
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Bronze Member Username: DudywoxerScunthorpeUK Post Number: 39 Registered: Mar-06 | If you want a warmer sounding set up with detail and dynamics you should may be be thinking about the cart more than the deck. The ortofons to my ears are a bit too clean sounding. You could try something like the High Output denon carts- the 110 or 160 should be fine on a P1, although the do enjoy life on the RB300, so may be a better match with the P3-24. I'm not sure about prices where you are but a P3-24 +DL 110 should be in budget. |
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 2 Registered: Jan-08 | Yes its me from audiokarma ;) I think I could get more opinions asking in this forum as well. As I wrote at audiokarma, I was told today to look at the Clearaudio Emotion turntable as well. I like the design of the Rega P3-24 better (and the price too) - but the Clearaudio is using an acrylic platter. Will that tighten up the sound and eliminate the need for a mat on the platter? It looks like I can get such a platter for the Rega as well if I want. Is that a good idea? |
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Bronze Member Username: MsgtpogiNJ Post Number: 12 Registered: Jan-08 | Maybe getting a used Sota Sapphire or VPI HW19 turntable is what you need. They both accept a wide variety of arms, offer very solid bass, lots of detail without grating at you and solid soundstaging. An Oracle Delphi is slightly better in the upper ranges but a tad lighter balanced and more finicky with arms. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2671 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter, All the interfaces in the design of a record deck are used to enhance the sound of that deck. The Clearaudio uses an acrylic platter, the Michells use a vinyl-like material and a clamp to couple the record to the deck, the Regas use a variety of MDF, glass and ceramic platters with felt mats of different thickness depending on the deck, Pro-ject use variously acrylic and cork. Each designer uses the materials that they find suit their deck depending on their approach to music. You can't therefore base your decision on the choice of whether something uses a mat or not. Adding or removing a mat, utilising something like a Ringmat on a Rega instead of the felt mat, you will change the presentation of the deck, but there's no saying that the change will necessarily be better or worse based on the use of cork, and there's no telling what the result will be until you hear it. I am of the opinion that one of two things is happening with your case: 1. there is something not quite right with the setup if a P1 with 2m Blue is not at least in the same ballpark sonically as your C542. 2. You don't really get on with the Rega's presentation. So... Did you fit a 2mm spacer under the arm of your P1? You need a spacer to get the VTA right for the extra height of the 2m cartridge (along with most other cartridges). Did you use the Rega's own cartridge alignment protractor that came with the record deck? You must use a Rega cartridge alignment protractor since the Rega arm has a different geometry to most other arms. If you have checked the above and all is as it should be, then it's possible you don't get on with the presentation. however, it would be best if you could get comparative demoes of the decks to find out if this is really the case. As others have apparently told you, the Rega P3-24 is a fine machine which can be upgraded with an external power supply. You should demo that against the Clearaudio and the equivalent Pro-Ject for starters, preferably with the same cartridge on board (difficult). Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 3 Registered: Jan-08 | Thank you for the very detailed response I was not aware that I should fit a 2mm spacer under the arm. I did not use Rega's protractor but I downloaded one from the internet made for the Rega turntables, saying that the one Rega supplied normally only work well with their own catridge. So assume that the alignement is correct. The protactor I used is this one: http://www.vinylengine.com/download_centre/index.php?rega_arc_stevenson.pdf I really want to add a spacer now, just to hear the difference. But I don't know where to get such one - can I make one my self? And how to install it? That would be very nice if that is possible. Also - are you sure that the Ortofon OM5E (came with the turntable) does not need a spacer? Thank you so much I find your help very useful |
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 4 Registered: Jan-08 | I looked for spacers at Rega's homepage and found this "Arm Height or V.T.A adjustment can be a controversial subject. Rega believes that the integrity of the arm fixing onto the arm mounting board is much more important than the questionable facility of arm adjustment: The arm should be reasonably parallel to the record surface or slightly lower at the mounting. The only time a spacer is necessary to raise the arm height is if the rear of a cartridge is hitting the record whilst playing." Also, I don't think my turntable sounds bad, but it is not good enough for me. I will just check with the protactor again, to see if I can set it up better than it is now. |
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 5 Registered: Jan-08 | With the protractor, everything looks perfect. I'm still in doubt whether the spacer will make the big difference. I would assume that a more precise turntable setup was the solution. The sound is good, but it is not tight. But clearly tighter and cleaner than with the Ortofon OM5E. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2674 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter, The Rega alignment protractor works well for any cartridge. This is because the protractor is designed for the arm's geometry, not the cartridge's! I do not know the one you posted so I cannot be sure what, if anything, could be wrong there. As to Rega's stance on VTA, yes I know, I've even argued with Roy Gandy on the subject. Rega is unique in taking this position and many will tell you that getting the VTA right makes all the difference in the world. There are even some brands which allow you to adjust VTA during play in order to get it right. All I can tell you is that I believe Roy to be wrong on this issue, along with 90% of the planet. Spacers are available from Rega themselves, or any Rega stockist. I am fairly sure the OM5E does require a spacer, although I could be mistaken on this. If, when the cartridge is in the groove of an average record, the arm is level, then VTA is not a problem. If the arm is low at the mount point, it needs raising. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 6 Registered: Jan-08 | Well... the turntable world is very confusing for a newbie like me that just want a very good turntable for a good price I found out today that I can try a Rega P3-24 at home, If I want. So that's what I'm going to do. Then I'll really find out how it sounds. Maybe it will be this weekend. I will post on this thread to tell my opinion on it, after listening to it. Thank you for your help so far. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6120 Registered: Feb-05 | If you are trying the P3-24 with a Rega cartridge keep in mind that it can sound light years better. Also, will you be using the external power supply? |
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 7 Registered: Jan-08 | I will try to have my current Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge mounted on the P3-24 if possible. I don't think I will be using the external power supply. If the table itself in the stock version is not a lot better than what I have, I think I should consider another turntable. I will listen mainly to timing, tightness, detailing and precision in the sound. Wether the sound is warm, cold, or whatever could be changed when changing cartridge - but the timing, tightness and so on is more related to the turntable/tonearm than the cartridge, right? If it shows up to be a lot better than my P1, then I might buy it. Also because I know that it can sound even better upgrading it with the external power supply, another cartridge, new platter and counterweight and so on. But If the stock table isn't a lot better than the P1, then I could upgrade my P1 instead or try another turntable. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6133 Registered: Feb-05 | It's a lot better Peter...don't worry. |
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 8 Registered: Jan-08 | I tried the QED Silver Link on my phono preamp today. I first thought that the difference were big - but after changing back again I was really in doubt if there were any difference. But my after playing some tracks I think that it opened up the sound and provided details that I haven't heard before and provided a tighter bass and the drums were more defined. I can't imagine how it will sound with the P3-24 - it must be LP heaven :D I always think that changing a cable to a better one doesn't mean better sound directly, but it means better sound because more of the sound gets trough. |
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 9 Registered: Jan-08 | I'm currently trying a Rega P3-24 at home with my Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge. The sound is clearly better, more tight and emotional. But I really thought it would be even better, so I might try it with a Rega Exact and the external power supply before deciding to buy it or not. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6155 Registered: Feb-05 | Peter, is it a new table or broken in? Same for the Cartridge? The Exact is a decent cartridge but for the bucks you can do a whole lot better...hopefully it's just a listen. For less money there are excellent cartridges by Dynavector, Benz Micro, and Clearaudio. The Ortofon takes time to run in as well as the table...also the power supply you mentioned takes the whole package to the next level. Close to that of the P5 and certainly close to the P25 before it. The Dynavector 10x5 cartridge has near legendary synergy with Rega tables at that level. |
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New member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 10 Registered: Jan-08 | Its broken in by the dealer. The cartridge is my own - broken in by myself. The dealer told me that a Rega cartridge on a Rega sounds fantastic - like they were made for each other. But of course, one should not believe everything without researching. It sounds nice and tight, but not as detailed as I would like. A little tighter in the sound would be fantastic. If the external power supply and another cartridge will do it, I'm bying it. If not, I'm still looking for another turntable |
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Silver Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 215 Registered: Aug-06 | That's right Peter, find the combo that suits you. Look forward to the updates. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 11 Registered: Jan-08 | But I really have to say that I'm "shocked" how much to spend to get a decent turntable compared to CD players. My friends are telling me that I'm mad and crazy - I could use the money on something else, they tell me. But like you (well, most of you I hope) I have a real love for vinyl. Right now I doesn't need anything but a very good turntable that will sound amazing every time I turn it on. Just like my CD player. The Rega P3-24 sure sounds good. But it doesn't beat my CD player that's a whole lot cheaper. The turntable setup I'm trying out now is 6000 kr. including my own cartridge and my cd-player is 3500 kr. (100 kr. is about $19.85 using google). I think of a turntable being much simpler than a CD player, so why is a good turntable more expensive than a good cd-player? :-) Is it worth the lot of extra money considering the P5 - even if I don't like the (ugly) border on the plinth? My friends is going to kill me if they know I bought a turntable that expensive - even the Rega P3-24 - should I take that into the consideration? It will be expensive using the external power supply and a better cartridge on the P3-24 as well. I don't know what is the best deal. The P3-24 is good, clearly better than what I have, but I was expecting more :-( The turntable I'm going to buy have to impress me every time i listen to it and of course I would like it to sound so good that my friends will understand why I love vinyl. Then I will have it less bad using that amount of money ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6159 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry Peter but something is wrong with your setup if the P3-24 doesn't just kill your C542. I owned the C542 and it was beat by a mile by my Apollo and my P3 did the same to the Apollo. Something just isn't right. The C542 just ain't that good. It's a nice budget player but any halfway decent vinyl rig should have it's way with it. Heck my Dual CS 505-3 with Orto Red outperforms it. Have you considered that perhaps you don't like the sound of vinyl, just a thought. I have the P5 (ugly plinth and all) and it sounds great but the P3-24 with a good cartridge and power supply should be close. Perhaps you like the sound of a heavier table...say a VPI or Sota. I don't like Clearaudio but perhaps you do. You will have to climb higher than the Emotion to clearly outperform the P3-24. You have much critical listening ahead. Be sure to listen to a variety of material and give whatever rig you are trying a good run. When you put on the Exact cartidge and use the power supply take your time and give a good listen. Good luck to ya Peter. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 12 Registered: Jan-08 | It's very interesting... well, I like the sound of vinyl. And the sound has never been closer to my cd-player than now. I can feel that just a little tighter, a little more details - then it's good enough for me. I like CD's as well, but with vinyl is something else. For me it is like something is missing when I play a CD. It is not very exciting just placing a disc in a drive. Even looking as the disc turns around on the turntable gives me a satisfaction that the CD-player can't give me. In that way, my P1 beats my cd-player :D But when it comes to sound quality... Do you think the external power supply will tighten up the sound even further and provide more details? Or is the cartridge more responsible for that? I noticed that the speed variations I sometimes hear on my P1 is completely gone with the stock P3-24. The timing is better, is clearly more tight and defined. Not as tight as my cd-player, but very close. But it's a lot of money for something that doesn't satisfy me 100%. So I will really try the Exact (or maybe the Elys if the Exact is too expensive - I haven't decided yet) and the external powersupply. Something must be wrong, if you think it should beat my cd-player - it doesn't, right now. It sounds great but not good enough. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2435 Registered: May-05 | Peter, Are you using an NAD PP2 phono stage? If so, I'd be willing to bet its a significant part of the problem. I used one. Its good for the price, but not great. It sounds soft, closed in, isn't very quiet, and not very dynamic. It conveys the vinyl essence, but not much more. The pre-amp section is a very important part of the chain which is overlooked way too often. Your dealer seems like a very good one. Does he/she have any external phono pre-amps that you could borrow? I'd throw money at the phono stage before the external power supply and cartridge. The power supply and cartridge upgrades are very good ones, worth every penny. But the sound of the system can only be as good as the weakest link, which is definitely the phono stage in your situation IMO. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6164 Registered: Feb-05 | Stu has a very good point. Also, I've said this before but here I go again. The Exact is an ok cartridge and the Elys is less than ok. Between those 2 prices is the Dynavector 10x5 and your ticket to vinyl heaven. However as Stu said if the phono stage isn't good then so be it. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 13 Registered: Jan-08 | What phono stage should I try then? I live in Denmark so I don't have a lot of choices - especially when I want to test at home before buying. That's a must for me. I know that I can try a Rega phono stage - should I give it a try? Other recommendations are welcome. I really think it is getting more and more confusing and expensive. It should not be that hard to get a decent turntable setup  The alternate is that I don't have a turntable at all... that sounds even worse to me - so I think the best thing to do is keep testing until the right setup is there. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6167 Registered: Feb-05 | The Rega Fono is a considerable leap ahead of the NAD and will at least allow you to get more from a decent cartridge than you currently are. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 14 Registered: Jan-08 | Isn't there any must have, really well known and famous phono preamp? I should check that out if such one exists |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9747 Registered: Dec-04 | You could look into Ballari tube phono stages. PS Audio make a few, but higher priced for balanced in/out. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2436 Registered: May-05 | There are a lot of very good phono stages. However, I don't know your budget, prices in Denmark, nor what is available. Some names to through out there - Lehmann Black Cube Tom Evans SimAudio LP3 Musical Fidelity XLPS Clear Audio Nanostage Creek Dynavector Graham Slee Pro-Ject Tube Box Rega Fono All have excellent reputations and different price points here in the US. Some brands may be more expensive where you are due to taxes and duties, whereas others may be cheaper for the same reasons. See what you have available and fits your budget, and we can take it from there. Information on most of them can be found here - http://www.musicdirect.com/category/24 While they are US prices and most likely won't ship to you, it gives you an idea of specs and budget ranges. As far as the must have phono stage, any one of these could be considered that depending on budget, cartridge, and sound preferences. I doubt your turntable set up will get much better than it is now with any other upgrades if you keep the PP2. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 15 Registered: Jan-08 | I know that I can get Clearaudio, Pro-Ject and Rega of those you mentioned. I will take a look on those brands. I really wasn't aware that my phono stage was that bad But thanks anyway - I'll post again after some resarch. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2437 Registered: May-05 | The PP2 is very good for its price. Key words being for its price. Its an inexpensive pre-amp that doesn't try to be something that it isn't. The Pro-Ject Phono Box isn't any better, just different. The Pro-Ject Tube Box is supposed to be very good. The Rega Fono is an excellent phono stage. I haven't heard the Clear Audio, but they make quality stuff, and it would surprise me if it wasn't a very good phono stage. Keep in mind the phono pre-amp is just as important as everything else in the chain - table, cartridge, tonearm. |
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Bronze Member Username: DudywoxerScunthorpeUK Post Number: 40 Registered: Mar-06 | The relationship between the cartridge and the phone pre amp is hard to get ''just right''. I run a Rega P25, with a Denon DL110 cartridge. The denons are to my ears a real Hi Fi bargain. They take around 30-40 hours of use to really come on song, but sound good from the start. The 10x5 is a touch better, but is in the UK around 4-5 times the price. On phono stages I use the unit built into my pre amp (Rega Cursa) this is basically the same as the Rega MM fono. Against this I have tried a NAD PP2, not bad for the money, Cambridge 640P, To my ears much better then the NAD, and very good value for money, and more. The Slee Gramp amp 2SE, very good, and on a par with the Rega unit. The Rega times better, and conveys the swing and rythm of the music better, the Slee has a touch more detail. All of this with a Denon cart. As to why is a better turntable more money than a CD player, I'm not too sure they are but if you think about the manufacturing systems, and quantity of units produced you can see why they may be. Especially as the majority of budget CD decks are assembled from mass produced, widely available off the shelf parts. Turntables are too a large extent produced by small scale manufacturing companies, from very specific parts. I personally would look at Rega P3-24, Denon DL110 or 10x5, with a Rega phono, and hopefully a PSU to be where real Hi-Fi decks start. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 16 Registered: Jan-08 | How much is worth to spend for a phono stage for the Rega P3-24? The sound I have now is a little dull and not very detailed. I have the feeling that there is much more details that doesn't come out to me trough the speakers. I did some A/B testing with my CD player, and I noticed that the Rega P3-24 is close. My CD player however was a lot better in the highs and I also feel that the bass was just a little tighter and more detailed. The timing is just about the same, I feel. The details is the biggest concern right now - especially when listening to complex music. And I have a feeling that tells me that I need to go up at least to the P5 to get what I really want. A very bad, expensive feeling. The Rega P3-24 is expensive to me, and it feels like I'm paying a lot to get a sound that is close but not completely satisfying. I really want it to sound a little more than completely satisfying so I won't buy a new turntable for the next 5 years. Not that I would buy a P5, but what can the P5 do that a P3-24 can't - even if it's upgraded to it's best? To me it sounds like the cartridge have to be more detailed and I need a phono stage that can open up the sound and reveal all the details from the cartridge, providing tight, consistent, detailed sound trough the whole spectrum - like I feel the NAD C542 do. The differences should be clear, so when I listen to LP's I will get the nice sound and feel the power of analog recordings, while on the CD player, I will get the nice sound without the power of analog recordings, you know :-) |
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Bronze Member Username: DudywoxerScunthorpeUK Post Number: 41 Registered: Mar-06 | I don't think it is really a case of how much you spend, its as much a case of balance to the cart. You obviously have Rega dealer available to you, and you have the 2M Blue cart. Try and 1. get the dealer to let you borrow a Rega Fono 2. get the dealer to check the cart set-up because something just sounds wrong to me. 3. Get the dealer to let you either borrow a Rega cart (I don't like them, but lots of people do) or a 10x5. Get them home and listen. The something sounds wrong to me from point 2, with a 2m blue the last thing I would have expected you to be short on is detail, unless the NAD phono is dulling the sound down. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 17 Registered: Jan-08 | I will describe the sound I have now as standard, good, fine - nothing special at all. It is not bad - just good - not fantastic. Tomorrow I'm going back to my Rega dealer with my cartridge mounted and I'm bringing the NAD PP2 as well. Then I want him to listen to something he is familiar with, to tell me what he think about that combination. I really hope that he says "OMG - it can get SO much better - you won't believe it" and not "That's the best sound I ever heard" ;-) Then I want him to mount a Rega pickup (the Elys or the Exact) on it, so I can listen for difference. If it sounds a lot better, I would like to take it home again and listen to all my records to see if its the one I'm going to have. Hopefully with another phono stage and maybe with the external power supply so I can test with and without it. If that won't do it - I really don't know what to do. Then it is going to be far, far more expensive than i ever thought it would be to get a good sounding system. My dealer said that he would like me to listen to the other Rega turntables as well. I don't know if it's a good idea - I might want the P9 with the Apetha afterwards :D But I'm sure that would help me find out the differences between the turntables. Any recommendations on phono stages? Remember, I want warm, smooth sound (a little laid back might be good) - crazy tight and well-defined bass is very important to me - more than crystal clear treble. The tightness and details of the drums is important as well. The treble is going to be bright, but smooth. No knife-like treble. I hate that, because I often play loud. If you think you know just the right one for me, send me a link (a review would be very nice) and I will take a look at it. Thank you all very much so far - you are very helpful, indeed. I feel like I have learned a lot about turntable setups in just a couple of days ;) |
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Bronze Member Username: DudywoxerScunthorpeUK Post Number: 42 Registered: Mar-06 | The graham slee gram amp 2se, or the Rega phone really ought to do what you are looking for. In typical Rega style reviews are hard to come by, for slee http://www.stereotimes.com/acc052507.shtml |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2687 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter, I have re-read this thread. I wonder if the Rega presentation is not for you? It does happen. I suggest you listen to the Pro-Ject turntable at the same price as the P3-24 with your 2m Blue in it. Try it with your current setup before getting confused by phono stages. If you prefer it, then you're on the wrong track with the Rega. If you prefer the Rega, then you're on the right track. One question - does the P3-24 have the 2mm spacer you need for that Ortofon??? Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 18 Registered: Jan-08 | Well - after a more intense look at the Pro-Jects, I think that they to me look to polished and fragile. Another dealer told me that the Pro-Ject in the same price range is not that tight in sound but more warm. Tightness is preferred over warmness to me, but I like both. I do not have any spacer for the Ortofon. That's another reason I want to try it with a Rega cartridge. I like the sound of the Rega - I really feel I'm on the right track. I'm just missing details and more well defined drums. To me the drums sound much more lively on my CD player. It kicks out of the speaker like the drummer was right in front of you. It doesn't on the Rega P3-24 with my Ortofon and the NAD PP2 - the drums are simply too "laid back" and blurred a little. That's the main problems. I feel the timing is very, very good - but could of course be better. I assume that the external power supply with tighten up the sound even more? I need a sound that is more clear, more powerful. I will try to illustrate what I think of my equipment on a scale from "not good" to "fantastic": |---A---B----C--D---E-----------| The letters is: A = My P1 (with Ortofon 2M Blue and NAD PP2) B = My dvd player (playing cd's) C = The P3-24 (with Ortofon 2M Blue and NAD PP2) D = My NAD C542 CD player E = The turntable setup I want I would like to move the Rega P3-24 from position C to E. I think that a new phono stage and a more detailed cartridge will move it to position D or maybe a little more. With the external power supply, it is moved to position E. But I have no idea if thats possible. I know what the differences is from the P1 to the P3. I still want to know what the differences are from the P3 to the P5. Then I will listen tomorrow and see if I agree. But I won't buy the P5 - if I'm going to buy the P3-24 with external power supply, Exact cartridge (or like that), a new phono stage and a high quaility interconnect cable, we are looking at a price similiar to the P5? I also need to buy all that stuff with the P5 and it would get even more expensive - so I don't see that would be a possibility. Then I would more likely upgrade the P3-24 that much over time that it will beat the P5 easily, if that's possible. There is no way I'm buying a setup that is below position E in the scale above. And there is no way I'm buying a setup that costs more than what we are talking about now. I'm having so much trouble finding out what to buy in this complicated, very expensive, turntable "jungle". I hope that I will get a much clearer look at this tomorrow with my Rega dealer. He is very experienced and should be able to help me figure out what to do. Oh - the Gram Amp 2 Special Edition is sure very interesting to me - but there is no dealer close to where I live, so I can't try it at home :-( That's very sad... Also, for further recommendations, I don't think I should go the tube way - I like having my system powered almost constantly - I assume that solid state is the best for me. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2441 Registered: May-05 | Peter, Everything you don't like about your current set-up sounds exactly how I'd describe the PP2. Hopefully this will become appearant when you audition the phonostages. I don't see your system moving to your "E" with a PP2. Also, the Pro-Ject line is very good. They're not as fragile as they seem. They're very well built. They do have a different presentation than Rega does. It could definitely be worth an audition. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 19 Registered: Jan-08 | I'm talking with some danish people in a danish hifi-forum about the same topic. What people tells me is, that my cd-player is going to be best unless I go far higher op than the Rega P3-24. I simply can't understand why I should do that? It cannot be true, that I need to spend all that money on overpriced stuff just to get what I'm missing. I'm starting to belive that my preamp is dull and undetailed, and I might need a better pickup. The sound I want is almost there with the P3-24 - but for that price? I still can't believe it. And I'm not a fan of ultra silent CD's with overcompressed sounds. Most of my CD's is not overcompressed - it sounds like the vinyl version, but gives more details. I like the little more dirty sound from vinyl with the analog feeling. But I expect at least as many details as my CD player gives me. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6178 Registered: Feb-05 | Apparently they are clueless Peter...sorry but that's how it is. You've been given suggestions, not sure what anyone else can say or do to help. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 20 Registered: Jan-08 | :-) Well, it seems to be a real challenge to get a good turntable without paying lots and lots of money. Tonight I hope my Rega dealer can help me and solve this problem. I'm not giving up - I have to go trough a lot of tests before agreeing that it is impossible to get a good turntable for a good price. I'm still hoping that it's just my phono stage or pickup that is destroying the sound. If that's the case, I don't have a big problem. If not, there is a reason to cry ;-) I don't think we will get any further with this topic before I've listened to my dealers setups. He is also going to give me opinion on how my setup sounds as it is now. I will post a reply to this topic afterwards. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2695 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter, I am inclined to agree with Stu here. The NAD PP2 is a fine budget phono stage, but that's all. Budget phono stages are obviously liimited in resolution, bandwidth and most other things you can mention. Of course, your CD player is not exactly expensive either! I am not happy that there is no spacer under the arm of that P3-24. I believe this would make quite a difference. The Rega cartridges are not my friends - I find them a bit noisy and lacking in any tonal colour. However, they swing and time beautifully - I will give them that. Perhaps this is what you're looking for and since the VTA is correct for them, you may find what you're looking for. Eventually that phono stage will go, and when it does, a window will open - big time! Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 21 Registered: Jan-08 | Tonight i listened to the P3-24 with two different phono stages and cartridges on my dealers setup. I didn't like his setup - it was too sterile and cold sounding in my opinion - but sure I could here differences like never before. I heard a lot of stuff, but the most impressive was when I heard AC/DC's Back in Black with my Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge on my own preamp. When he changed to the Rega preamp I could hear the drums that before just sounded like something else. And I'm very familiar with AC/DC's records, so I knew how it should sound and felt that only my CD player cold make it sound like that. Afterwards he put on a jazz record with a very deep bass. It was hard to hear on the Ortofon - it sounded like weak rumble and vibrations. Then he changed to the Rega Exact, and the bass was clear and well defined. Totally another world. In the start of next week, he will get back the external power supply from one of his customers (who is testing it right now). At that time I will test the Rega phono stage and the Rega Exact cartridge at home. I will try the power supply as well. I'm pretty sure that the Rega P3-24 is what I want. I feel that it will open both doors and windows for me, but I will need to listen at home again to fully experience the difference. So, I'm quite happy right know as you might guess. I was having a lot of trouble with the P3-24 that looks like it is solved now. I will post more in this thread after the next test. Meanwhile, I'm still listening to recommendations in phono stages in the $300-$500 range. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2450 Registered: May-05 | Recommendations between $300 and $500 for a cratridge? Dynavector 10x5. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 22 Registered: Jan-08 | I know that a lot of you like the Dynavector. I don't know where to get it in Denmark, so I might go with the Rega Exact. I know that not all like the Rega cartridges. Please tell me why - then I will listen and see if I agree - and then I might consider something else. If we talk about phono stages, I'm still in doubt if the Rega is the best buy. I think my NAD PP2 sounds richer and more warm - I like that - but it is very muddy and doesn't give any details compared to the Rega phono stage, I found out yesterday. What about the Pro-Ject's? I know that I can get those in Denmark, so If you think one of their models is worth considering - let me now. I like to have my system powered up almost constantly, so I don't know if tube-based designs is a good idea. I think I have enough tubes in my guitar amplifier ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6187 Registered: Feb-05 | Peter, you don't seem to know what you are looking for, you're all over the map. Once you figure it out perhaps this process will be easier. Good luck. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 23 Registered: Jan-08 | Well, I think it is pretty clear. I want a good phono stage worth the price to replace my NAD PP2 - I want warm but tight and detailed sound. Is that "all over the map"? hehe First of all, I think I will take a further look into the Pro-Ject phono stages. |
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Bronze Member Username: DudywoxerScunthorpeUK Post Number: 44 Registered: Mar-06 | When he changed to the Rega preamp I could hear the drums that before just sounded like something else. And I'm very familiar with AC/DC's records, so I knew how it should sound and felt that only my CD player cold make it sound like that. What? something else better, or something else worse, I am having problems following what you are looking for here, as I have never heard a Rega phono stage make drums sound like anything else. From my experience with NAD amps and CD's they do tend to have a warm and friendly sound, which is hardly a description I would apply to anything from the Rega stable. I use the denon carts because they are a warmer sound, and compliment the Rega stage and arm very well and just may be the balance you are looking for. It is not just the stage or the cart- it is the balance that matters} |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2455 Registered: May-05 | The Pro-Ject isn't better, just diferent. It goes higher and lower in scale, but its a little rough around the edges. If you're looking for a full and warm sound, the Pro-Ject Phono Box isn't going to give you what you want. Its the opposite of the PP2 in this regard. Again, not better nor worse, just different. The Pro-Ject Tube Box sounds like it may be what you're looking for. Two more tubes isn't too much, is it? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2705 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter It seems ot me that you have settled on the Rega Exact and that you like what it does by direct comparison to the 2m Blue. The Exact is obviously in a different league to the other Rega cartridges, in part because it is so much more expensive than the others. At similar money there are other cartridges available but if you like what you heard, then why change to something else? I may not like Rega cartridges, but the Rega people are not deaf, so those cartridges must appeal to them for some reason. They don't make anything they don't like. As for the phono stage, this is quite a difficult choice. The Pro-Ject Phono Box SE (£130) is better enough than the Phono Box (£60) to warrant the extra cash, but I rate it a bit better than the Rega Fono only, not very much better. You say the Rega Fono is better but not better enough than the NAD to warrant the change. So in this case, perhaps you may wish to look further up the scale. In the UK, I would have no hesitation and suggest these: 1. Tom Evans Microgroove (£450 and upgradeable) 2. Dynavector P75MkII (£500) 3. Naim Stageline (£285?) and power supply (£185) These all have greater resolution than you're used to with extra bandwidth and depth. I rate them in the order I have written them personally, but this is open to much debate... The Dynavector is the most flexible since it allows for MC, MM, and DrT mode (particularly effective with Dynavectors). The others are fixed load so either MM or MC. There are others which have many fans. In your price range look for: Graham Slee (from £100 to £4500) Trichord Dino (£330) That's all I can think of right now! Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 24 Registered: Jan-08 | colin wilson: I think it might be my bad english - I'm sorry - The drums sounded very fine with the Rega - it was the NAD that made the drums sound like something else. By that I mean that it didn't sound like it should - it was not very detailed. So "something else worse" is what I meant. Sorry Stu Pitt: I wouldn't say that I'm not into tube phono stages. In fact I think that they do make the sound I want. But... if it's powered up almost all day and night... That is the only concern I have. I think that it might be better for me to choose a solid state device. If it won't damage the tubes if I don't care to turn it off - then a tube phono stage might be very interesting. I know tube sound is known to be warm. Is tubes known for tight sound and perfect timing or do I need to go solid state for that? It is very important to me. More important than the "warmness". If tubes do both, then I would definitely look further into tube phono stages. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2456 Registered: May-05 | I don't have enough experience with tubes, and the Tube Box in particular to be able to answer that. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pvh1987OdenseDenmark Post Number: 25 Registered: Jan-08 | I just read a nice review of the Rega Fono: http://www.uhfmag.com/Tech/Phono.pdf It is compared to two other phono stages. The conclusion is not all that clear to me, but it looks like it is a lot of phono stage for little money. The sound is described as the sound I want. Maybe I'm going with that. I also searched for reviews of tube phono stages. I read about the Pro-Ject Tube Box and from what I read, I think the Rega is more the thing I want. I will listen to the Rega at home in 5-7 days I think and will of course tell you what I think. If possible for me, I might audition the Pro-Ject as well, just to hear the difference. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2715 Registered: Sep-04 | Due to the noisier nature of tubes over transistors, it is not recommended that tubes be used in an MC phono stage. Their noise lowers the S/N ratio which is a bad thing. This is why the vast majority of tube phono stages are MM, and if they have an MC component, the MC/MM converrsion is usually solid state. In reality tubes don't actually have a sonic signature. This depends a lot on the circuit in which they're implemented. In the old days, most amplifiers were based on Mullard circuit designs so many amplifiers had a similar sound. Nowadays, the circuits are a bit more varied and refined so the 'tube sound' is not as prevalent as it used to be. Don't get too hung up on tubes - they're as good as their implementation, as is true with transistors or anything in life... |
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New member Username: OldrelayerPost Number: 1 Registered: Feb-08 | I found this thread looking for some information on the Rega P1 LP Turntable. I have an AR-XA, and thinking of making some mods, a RB-250 upgrade and a Stanton 881 MKIIs. Right now I am using a Shure 97xe which I don't like very much. I have had 681EEE's in the past and think the 881 would be a good fit for me. I listen to Jazz, Progressive Rock and Classical, for turntable use mostly classical. My question is, by the time I get all finished with the AR, I will have about the same money into it as buying a P1 add a compatible pre-amp and it might be a little more for the P1. I am not familiar with the new tonearm used on the P1, I assume it is a lesser grade than the 250. Eventually the AR will need more work, a new motor and maybe other things. I am 62 and except for a very brief period when I couldn't afford a decent table I always have used an AR-XA. A 881 will help a lot but it really needs a tonearm upgrade. My question is a tough one unless someone is familiar with both the AR-XA and the P1, but I thought I would give it a try. Would you upgrade or buy a new table? I am retired so I don't have a fortune to spend and I am already getting some heat about doing anything. The minimum I will do is upgrade the cartridge, that may be enough, but I doubt it. I would be open to other cost effective alternatives without getting crazy. Thanks, Barry |
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