I have just added the Rega Apollo to my Home system.
Pre-amp NAD 317 bi-amped/Bi-wired Bridged NAD C272 Paradigm M60s
I think the soft spot now is the Preamp and have been playing with the idea of upgrading. My feels are that I would like to test out tubes... but should I? What are the things I am looking for in a good Pre-amp? What are the key difference between tubes and Solid State.
It would be better, IMO, if you told us what differences/improvements you expect to find in a tube pre amplifier. If you think you would like to try tubes, there must be a reason. What do you think you'll hear from tubes that you can't find in a reasonably priced ss pre amp? I ask because too many people have read about "tube magic" without really knowing what that term means.
I use tubes throughout my system and have for the past twenty five years. I would find it difficult to go back to affordable solid state. But tubes are not a panacea for what ails most systems. You will never get the same degree of quiet from tubes as solid state can offer. This isn't such a big deal when your sources are all line level such as a CD player. But tubes and phono sections require careful selection of tubes and cartridge. There are more than enough bad tubes and bad tube gear and on the other end of the spectrum there are much better tubes than ever before. Tube rolling will give an opportunity find just the sound you're looking for but can be expensive.
Ideally there should be no difference between tubes and transistors but that's seldom the case and certainly not so in the affordable price ranges. So, what qualities do you believe tubes will add to your system that solid state cannot?
Yep. John, what are you looking for with tubes? I will spout off first for the tube pre. Rogue Magnum99. First hand experience, super quality and 2300$.The best tube pre that you will find under that price, and well above.
Now, what were you looking for? Average? Midrange? Imports? I know JV's kit enough to know that it is not for everyone. SS setups are a lot easier than searching for winged 'C' tubes.
What are you wanting to go from-toagain? Adding lush tubes to a NAD sounds a little lazy to me.
I like the layout of your kit. Have you addressed the room?
To be straight forward... I know nothing about the difference between tubes and SS. That is the reason why I posted. I am looking to educate my self as to what I should be looking for, and what I should avoid and to be able to make an informed decision when I upgrade.
Basically, I love the look of tubes and I like the idea of having tubes included in my system if the sound is right.
Basically I am looking for a smooth, musical sound. Clearly defined highs, tight bass well defined and presented soundstage. The Apollo gives a really nice, soft, musical sound... I like that alot and I want to move futher in that direction if possible.
Currently my Pre is my old NAD 317, So I want an improvment on that... And I would say I am thinking 1-2k rangeish... Could be higher if I find the right product.
Nuck... I am not sure I understand what you mean by "Adding lush tubes to a NAD sounds a little lazy to me."
Room..... Still pretty much the same... did soften the corners and edges. Help a lot but not so sure how far I need to go in that direction cause the room is well arranged from what I gathered from my research on line.
Your statement "Basically, I love the look of tubes and I like the idea of having tubes included in my system if the sound is right." throws us off.
It sounds a lot like I wanted the BMW for its cool airplane propeller tag.
You depict that you know some things about what you want, but what you describe can be afforded to you from source, pre-amp, speakers, cables, and room treatment.
I know why I wanted tubes in my gear and I was willing to work at making it work for me.
Tubes can sound right in your system if you understand and can describe "right". So can solid state depending on what right is.
Do you have anything of value to add to your inquiry?
For example "a smooth, musical sound. Clearly defined highs, tight bass well defined and presented soundstage" can easily be contradictory.
What about vinyl instead of CD?
What type of music do you listen to and at what levels?
Describe your room.
And the inevitable, do you listen to live music?
Answers along those lines would add value to your inquiry.
yup. John, you can add at any time, these are the inevitable Q's that will happen to be able to help you out. Along with JV and MW, we have an astounding amount of gear and listening experience. Like forever. Ya gotta get into the heart of the thing to get big happy help. It's the music, but it has to come to you through gear.
OK sorry for the confusion but I am a neophyte wrt tubes/ss and wrt to pre-amps. So I am going to step back a little and restate and rephrase...
I do not understand what a pre does to overall sound quality or how it adds to sound quality. It appears to me to be simply a switch. I do believe it is more than a switch but do not understand why or how it is? What does it do to improve sound quality? Any all guideance is welcome.
Secondly, the look of the tubes is what intially attracts me to tubes. It does sound really superfical I understand but I am being honest. That is what is intially driving my inquiry. I am very VERY early in my research and hoping for guidance in this area.
I know very little about the differences between tubes and SS I am hoping for guideance in that direction as well.
I listen exclusively to CD's, wide variety of types of music. In order of importance Blues, Bluegrass, Jazz,R&B, Rock/Pop, Country and Classical
My room is 16ft by 34ft, mix of plants, furniture, I have sofened the corners slightly.
I do listen to live music, usually small clubs < 1000 people, or outdoor venues usually no larger than a few thousand people. I tried to avoid mega concerts, or stadiums.
I hope this helps and if there is more that I can add please feel free to ask.
It would help you greatly John to go through some archive posts on "Tube Talk". Lots of lessons there.
At the most basic level I find that a tube pre-amp takes some of the "edge" off of lead notes. To me it warms up the sound, providing a fuller richer experience. Tube amps will provide strength to mid-range and vocals. Tubes are outstanding on non-amplified music. There is a weight to the sound that I do not sense with SS. It is easier to build a system with SS as impedance curves of speakers are less critical. Then too as Jan posted tube rolling allows you to "dial in" a sound you are looking for.
Electronic mixing and synthesizers do not occupy much if any of the music I listen to, with the exception of a few classic rock bands I enjoy. I would think that the swings and levels of that style fits better with SS.
I have posted before that I find vinyl and tubes bring me a sound that is easy for me to listen to, not at all fatiguing, yet still can be very detailed. This is something I grew up with when very young, listening to music on a tube driven system.
What you want from a pre-amp, or at least what I want, is neutrality. The source is even more critical in that respect. By neutral, I mean you do not want to hear bloated mids or bass, nor do you want to hear shrillness in the treble. I found that I had to treat my pre-amp in order for it to perform at its best. Isolation below and lead weights above enabled my tube pre-amp to quiet down and let the music come through.
If you only listen to CDs then you might be able to bypass a pre-amp and go directly source to amp, if either of the the two have a volume control (vc).
When I got my tube pre-amp I was using a Creek 5350 SE integrated as a pre-amp only into my Carver M-4.0t amp. My music was out of control, literally bouncing off of the walls. When I added the tube pre-amp I then had a soundstage and sound which I could work with. By work with I mean placement of equipment, room treatments, rolling cables, etc. It was later that I added my turntable, upgraded my speakers, upgraded my CD player (again), and upgraded my amp. The tube pre-amp was a catalyst for me to get everything else done
"At the most basic level I find that a tube pre-amp takes some of the "edge" off of lead notes."
I don't understand this. If someone is looking for tubes as a BandAid to an "edgy" system, then you're probably going in the wrong direction. Old fashioned ideas of using tubes to smooth off the rough or offensive edges of solid state or digital hardness are, IMO, 1) old fashioned and 2) simply taking the coloration in another direction. While I have no problems with classic tube gear that spoke some truth to the music, older tube gear that merely rolled off the high frequencies and bloated the bass is not what I would recommend to anyone trying to assemble a first class system around today's electronics.
I think, from having heard MW's system, I know what he's trying to say but I feel it might be misleading to someone first exploring tubes. Unless you can be very specific in how you use the virtues of tubes, you are taking a chance placing tubes in a system in an attempt to mitigate bad transistor (or speaker) sound.
IMO, I've often stated that good tube based systems get the "edge" right by achieving a start/stop that sand based systems simply can't manage. In that same vein, just sticking a tube pre amp into a solid state system is not the way to find what tubes are all about. While tube pre amps paired with transistor power amps are a popular option that introduces many listeners to tube equipment, I am not a big fan of that approach. I'm sure lots of other listeners will disagree with my opinion. To those listeners I would only say; if you know what tubes can do and what your system requires, then you might find good sound by sticking tubes in with transistors. If you really don't know what you're after and "tight bass" yada, yada are how you describe the sound you're after, then do yourself a favor and go out to hear tube equipment before spending money on tube equipment. Tubes might turn out to be wonderful in your opinion and, then again, tubes might provide just another coloration you can enjoy for a brief period of time. As always, know what live music sounds like and make your comparisons to that and not to another piece of audio gear.
As to the look of tubes; most tube pre amps do not show off their glass envelopes as will a tube based power amplifier. From the user position of the pre amp, you typically cannot really tell whether a pre amp has tubes or transistors inside. If the tubes are exposed, they do represent a danger to small children and animals. Therefore, exposed tubes should be placed behind a tube cage which effectively reduces the visual appeal of tubes. If you only want the "look" of tubes, buy something cheap to plug in alongside your real system.
As Mike has pointed out, tubes are microphonic and cannot just be plopped down in a system and expected to give their best. You'll have to commit yourself to some experimentation with isolation devices and support system if tubes are going to work out in your system.
"It is easier to build a system with SS as impedance curves of speakers are less critical."
Obviously, this applies only to tube based power amplifiers. However, vacuum tubes have an inherently higher output impedance than a transistor and you'll need to pay attention to the output impedance match between pre amp and power amplifier in any system. You should also pay attention to whether the pre amp is polarity neutral or polarity inverting.
I would suggest you do some reading. "Tube Talk" is a good start and can be found in this section of the forum. Most of all I would encourage you to get out to listen to music through tube gear. Finally, I would push you toward a better vocabulary of audio so you can get beyond "tight bass" yada yada. We don't always agree on what certain terminilogy means and often are confused by how another person hears what we hear. But tight bass, clear mids and clean highs are pretty much what we all expect as opposed to sloppy lows, muddy mids and nasty highs. You can realize quite soon that having those desirable sonic qualities becomes quite expensive in either solid state or tubes. And they are merely artifacts of the system which mean nothing if the music isn't interesting. Go read. Go listen.