Receiver help

 

New member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 6
Registered: Jul-05
Ok, I recently got the Ascend CBM-170SE speakers that are supposed to be really good. I'd say that they are really accurate, clean, easily the best SOUNDING i've heard. The problem I'm having the is the overall volume. I hooked them up to what should be a completely inadequate 80x5 Sony 5.1 channel receiver that came in a HTIB until I could get something better and played it in 2 channel direct mode. I looked around and thought the Harman Kardon 3380 seemed to be a good bet, so I got that. The result? IT SOUNDS THE SAME. No louder, cleaner, or anything. The sound gets harsh and hot sounding at the same point on both receivers. What am I doing wrong? Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding of amplification? The Ascend site is even an authorized reseller of HK products, most of which don't even deliver 80 watts per channel. I'm using 14 guage wire. Do I need "separates" to get the full effect? Thanks for reading this!
 

Silver Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 180
Registered: Jun-07
What are you using as your cd player??? Where are the speakers positioned in your room??? Are you using stands? If so which ones???
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 843
Registered: Apr-06
Keep in mind that as far as pure volume goes, you will only get 3dB more volume for every doubling of power. So going from 40 watts to 80 gets you a whopping 3dB. Going from 80 to 160 gets you another 3dB. Trying to gain extra volume by getting more powerful amplification is expensive. If the Ascend isn't giving you what you want, look for more efficient speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8201
Registered: Dec-04
J, whatever your source, it could be low on the output voltage, limiting either receiver.
Or you may have found the speaker's max output.
(I think that answer).
 

New member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 7
Registered: Jul-05
To answer Nick: about 2 feet in front of wall. Speakers are 5 feet apart. Right speaker is about 5 feet away from a corner. Other is not near a corner. Speakers are in a low vaulted ceiling, like over a garage. I'm sitting about 7 feet away from them. This setup seemed pretty ideal I thought. They're not corner loaded and boomy. To answer Stephen: I thought 89DB was pretty efficient? I can't afford Klipschhorns :-) and I'm not buying any speakers anyway. To answer Nuck.. I'm not controlling the volume of the source, I'm controlling the volume of the receiver, and although I am using a crappy sony carousel and an Ipod dock, they sound great at lower volumes. and I think your second guess is probably and unfortunately correct... But if that's the case, then why would anybody waste money on expensive receivers with all this high current stuff, unless you had fire breathing monster towers?

Bottom line: I can live with it.. I just wanted to get the best from these Ascends. It's just that using a crappy sony receiver just seems to go against all the stuff that I thought I had learned from the extremely knowledgeable folks on this board. Thanks for the responses!
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8204
Registered: Dec-04
I dunno what to say next, J. Have you been on the Ascend forums?
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 845
Registered: Apr-06
"I thought 89DB was pretty efficient?"
89 is about average.

"I can't afford Klipschhorns :-)"
They aren't the only efficient speakers on the block, although they certainly are up there.

"But if that's the case, then why would anybody waste money on expensive receivers with all this high current stuff, unless you had fire breathing monster towers? "

Two reasons:

1. Because there is much more to sound quality than volume and distortion/cleanness. There are things like imaging, soundstaging, timing, etc.

2. Not all speakers are as easy to drive as the Ascends, electrically speaking, thus requiring a more robust amplifier. You might note that these speakers come in all sizes, not just "fire breathing monster towers".
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 846
Registered: Apr-06
PS: Are you using a subwoofer? If so, how do you have it connected?
 

New member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 8
Registered: Jul-05
I looked for a second at the ascend forums and saw "power conditioners" and "room treatments". Alot of them seem to use HK stuff, but one fanatic was using an 1800 dollar cambridge azure 640 integrated amp on just the CBM 170's ... is this guy crazy? mine was like $130???? See, that's way beyond what I'm dealing with. haha. I dunno, I went in and just turned it own down low. They do sound like a million bucks when played within their bounds. Unless anyone else has an explanation, I'm not gonna worry about it. Maybe someday down the road when I have too much money to spend I'll try a nice amp or floorstanders, but this will work fine for now. Thanks JBS2k6
 

New member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 9
Registered: Jul-05
OH, sorry I missed those last 2 posts!

Yes, I am aware of soundstaging. I have a Bad Plus CD, and "Everywhere You Turn" has excellent holographic piano noises that make the room sound like a church cathedral. That type of stuff seemed pretty similar on both of them. I'm using a velodyne dls-3500r running off of the sub out. The receiver is so crappy that it only crosses over at 200hz for those little full range squawkers you get with an HTIB. SO I run the Ascends full range, which could be a problem, although the distortion can come along even when the woofer is moving very little. It's usually tweeter related.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 847
Registered: Apr-06
"SO I run the Ascends full range, which could be a problem, although the distortion can come along even when the woofer is moving very little. It's usually tweeter related."

Running them full range will certainly make them find their mechanical limits much more quickly. However, it is a little more complex than just the speakers finding their mechanical limits.

One flaw of running the speakers full range off a receiver that has no bass management abilities is that regardless of the speaker's actual ability to play bass frequencies, the amplifier section will still be wasting large amounts of power trying to reproduce them anyways. This could easily lead to amplifier clipping if you aren't careful with the volume (and yes, it would cause that tweeter distortion). If you're the type that turns the bass up a few notches, that will of course only exacerbate the problem.


From a personal standpoint, Bass Management was the #1 reason I switched from a stereo receiver (also the HK 3380), to a 5.1 receiver, even though I only run 2.1 channels.
 

New member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 10
Registered: Jul-05
Wait a sec, stephen M... what about "even when the woofer is moving very little." I meant the woofer on the ascend. Doesn't that isolate that bass management problem? or not? I played something thin sounding like R.E.M on the speakers.. In fact, I even had gotten 2 85hz passive inline crossovers to hook up to the HK pre-out, main-in section. geeky i know. :P
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8209
Registered: Dec-04
J, I still figgur that the results should be better than you are describing.
What if you try running the sub from the speaker level, and the 170's from the speaker outs of the sub?
This gives you a widely ranging crossover point, and you might be surprised by the results.
Or not.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavdawg

Upstate, New York

Post Number: 783
Registered: Nov-06
J,

are these speakers still within the return period? You may be having an issue with the way the speakers sound, and they may not be efficient enough for you. If they are within the return period, I would recommend demoing them against other similarly priced speakers. You may come to the conclusion that the Ascend speakers are lacking certain types of distortion, and that is what you are hearing as a bad thing (I doubt this). Or, you may find that the other companies may offer you a speaker that fits your needs better.

If you want to remain internet direct, companies such as Axiom, Aperion Audio, and AV123 all have great reputations, and produce speakers in this price range.

I will NOT tell you what my preference is. That is for you to decide if you end up going this route.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 848
Registered: Apr-06
"what about "even when the woofer is moving very little." I meant the woofer on the ascend. Doesn't that isolate that bass management problem? or not? "

Depends; if the speaker's crossover has filter built into it to attenuate low end response (to keep the driver from blowing), then the woofer may not actually be doing much in spite of the fact that the receiver is expending large amounts of power.

So out of curiosity, how loud roughly are you playing the Ascends? Do you have an SPL meter to compare outputs?
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 5180
Registered: Feb-05
The HK should be satisfactory...sounds like you are unsatisfied with the speakers.

Yes a good integrated with a good source would make it sound light years better, but it appears that you like the quality of the current sound just not the quantity. Ascends are relatively efficient but will never give you the volume you are asking for. Change speakers....

BTW you should be able to run a speaker full range and get satisfactory sound without bass management, subs and the rest of that...stuff.

Before you change speakers, see if you can borrow a good integrated and give it a run...can't hurt.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8211
Registered: Dec-04
The Ascends won't hesitate to point out the flaws in your basic mass-market budget receiver, so choose carefully

This is from a full review from HT review.

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/ascend_cbm170_cmt340c.htm
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 5181
Registered: Feb-05
Nice review, wrong speaker. Many folks have been quite satisfied with Ascend speakers and budget gear. Just check the Ascend message board as J has suggested. Edster comes to mind as someone who only ran budget gear with them and was satisfied. As with most speakers they will sing more completely with higher quality gear but in the end they simply won't be everyone's cup-o-tea.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2295
Registered: Sep-04
Stephen,

89db with 8 ohm impedance is above average efficiency. Average is 87db.

Regards,
Frank.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 849
Registered: Apr-06
Close enough for government work, Frank. It isn't a party speaker in any case.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavdawg

Upstate, New York

Post Number: 784
Registered: Nov-06
Exactly Art!

I believe he may be unhappy with the way the speakers sound.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 11
Registered: Jul-05
This is hilarious because all the same dudes that I saw pop up when I looked up the Ascends came here.... Basically I should live with it is what we've come to. I do have an iteresting question, though!! I used to have the Athena AS-B1's. I'd say they were pretty good but a little bright and the tweeter got harsh pretty easily. HOWEVER! If the AS-F2 uses the same tweeter, how does that work? Wouldn't that limit the F2's from projecting high frequency stuff any better? That's why I thought I didn't need floorstanders. Because I thought the sub I had would take care of bass and stuff and I would end up with something comparable to a big 'ole floorstander THAT WANSN't crossed over, assuming the tweeter was relatively the same. LIKE I SAID, I'M FINE WITH THE SPEAKERS, I JUST WANTED TO GET THE BEST FROM THEM.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 851
Registered: Apr-06
I somehow doubt that the tweeter was reaching its mechanical limits off of the amplification you have on hand. I would suspect that you're pushing these receivers too hard and causing the harshness that way. Getting a floorstander won't help with that problem, although you'll note that the F2 is more efficient than the B1, which ought to give you a little more volume to work with.

Out of curiosity on the HK, what are you setting the volume to where it causes this kind of distortion?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8221
Registered: Dec-04
Geez, we ticked J off.
























Maybe it's the sub wire.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 5183
Registered: Feb-05
NOBODY IS REALLY INVESTED IN WHETHER YOU"RE FINE WITH YOUR SPEAKERS J.

We were simply making suggestions based on the info you gave us. As I stated above, borrow a high quality, high power amp from a friend or take one home from a retailer and demo it. If that doesn't fix your issue then maybe it's the....
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 12
Registered: Jul-05
wait you didn't make me mad.. no you didn't... I sincerely apologize for coming across that way. What I am trying to get across are that I don't want to buy new speakers as some have suggested. I'm trying to prevent future suggestions as such, but I'm not mad about it. I'll try to use capitalization more carefully next time.... Even so, I am in no way mad or whatever at the people who have suggested that. There is no reason, in my opinion, to get mad about something like speakers at all, under any circumstance, at least I won't. To answer Stephen M., the gain of the sony receiver only goes to a meaningless "73", which is about equivalent on the hk as about -7db. Oftentimes the Sony's gain control is too weak to even distort the speakers depending on the source mat'l, specially something old but good like Led zep. I'm beginning to think it's just some of my musical tastes that are to blame, playing heavily compressed stuff sometimes that is treble heavy and saturated I guess. If I play a classical piece it's fine. It's just that I guess I'm trying to make some recordings sound good that just don't and the Ascends are as you all have said in the past, too honest about the crap that many major labels pass as music. Great day to all of you.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2040
Registered: May-05
J,

Try a new source. It should clean up the sound a good amount. It won't turn a bad recording into a great one, but it won't pile crap on top of more crap either.

Not to bash your CD player, but I have yet to hear a Sony carosel player sound good. You may want to try and borrow an entry level CD player from a dealer and demo it at home.

I have the strong suspecion that your stereo is only going to be as good as your CD player or iPod let it be, which isn't exactly up to the level of your receiver or speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 5186
Registered: Feb-05
"If I play a classical piece it's fine. It's just that I guess I'm trying to make some recordings sound good that just don't and the Ascends are as you all have said in the past, too honest about the crap that many major labels pass as music."

Seems that you gotten to crux of it. Glad to hear it.

I still suggest trying a better amp...you may be surprised.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 15
Registered: Jul-05
ah. Well, I do have an optical out and in. would that help using the D/A on the sony receiver? but I would have to find a way to get a hard drive based player to do the work here. All my music, whether ripped from a cd at 320k or bought off itunes plus, is catalogued all nice by Itunes. It's not worth getting rid of all that.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 16
Registered: Jul-05
yeah I will try a new amp eventually. sell the HK? and save up for something good.. suggestions. It won't be something I get now. But later on. I love second hand and ebay. These ascends are actually second hand too.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 855
Registered: Apr-06
I'm not so sure I'd bother looking for another amp just yet. The Ascend and HK have some measure of synergy; something else may not. You'd effectively be stuck making shots in the dark, hoping for the best. Besides, I wouldn't say the HK is the weakest link in the system at this point.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jbs2k6

Knoxville, Tennessee USA

Post Number: 17
Registered: Jul-05
all right.. i'm gleaning my ipod probably is the weakest link, if it's anything stephen right?... there is kind of a disconnect as far as equipment goes in my crowd (college age) who are into digital music and fake "mega" bass whatever and you all who are into physical CD media, older guys who like a CD player and a big CD collection and probly vinyl too where there are a lot of options for truly good sound quality. thanks guys JBS2k6 age 19
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 856
Registered: Apr-06
J: Nobody ever said you had to have a million CDs laying around or buy a turntable.

My current primary source of music is my laptop. I ripped my entire CD collection with an apple lossless encoder, and am streaming it with an Apple Airport Express (under 100 bucks, and it is a wireless router). The Airport features a SPDIF out, and theoretically, the whole process is bit perfect (Stereophile even tested it and approved wholeheartedly). Attach the Airport to a decent external DAC, and you've got yourself a pretty darned solid source.

Heck, even the iPod is an OK source as long as you're using lossless files and not mp3s (although I wouldn't put it up against an Apollo Rega CD player or anything). It sadly doesn't feature a digital out, but fortunately the DAC it uses isn't a complete POS.

As for the CD player you have now, it obviously isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, but an external DAC would help it along greatly too.

Steve, age 25.
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