Looking for Advice
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New member Username: SanioWaterloo, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-07 | Hi All I am looking for advice on what/how I should consider upgrading in my current systems immediately and in the long run. I am currently running the following: Speakers: Paradigm Studio 60s V2.0 Pre Amp: NAD 317 PowerAmp: 2 Bridged/Biamped NAD C272 CD Player: NAD 523 Tuner: NAD 420 I think the weakest points are the CD player and the Preamp. Of the two, I was thinking the biggest improviemnt could be made by adding a dedicated pre. My main questions are: 1. Am I correct believing that the weak link is Pre? 2. If so, What should I look for in a pre and Why? It seems to me that a pre ONLY acts as a source splitter and that I should be looking for good construction and features. What other things should i consider when buying a new pre? 3. If I am incorrect wrt the pre as the weak link, what is the weak link and what should I consider upgrading? Thanks for any and all advice. John |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11015 Registered: May-04 | . The weakest link is the tuner. Nah! Just kidding. It's difficult for us to know what the weak link in your system might be without knowing some about what you are hearing and what you think needs improvement. Most of us would suggest improving the source first but that might not be what you have in mind. I'd always suggest doing a really good speaker set up, but maybe you've done that already. Room treatments make a world of difference and improvement. Have you done anything to make your current gear sound better? What's important to you? And, how do you judge a component? Do you have a live music reference or is it just what you like is what you like? Read any of the audio magazines? Got anything in mind? How about a budget? . |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 166 Registered: Jun-07 | Have you heard anything other than NAD? Are you looking for a different sound all together or an improvement on the kind of sound(NAD) your are getting now? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8184 Registered: Dec-04 | can you describe your room a bit, John? Any type of music in particular? |
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New member Username: SanioWaterloo, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-07 | Thks for the responses and I will try answer all your questions. I have always thought that my audio system would evolve over time I would improve components as the opportunity presented it's self. I have always had a plan on what I would add to make significant steps in improving over sound quality. For instance I knew I needed to Biamp my systems to improve the soundstage. Adding the 2 C272s has made an huge difference in the soundstage presentation. The configuration I described is only used for music, and I listen to mostly jazz (30s-60s) , rock, blues, techno, Bluegrass/country and World . Fairly diverse and really depends on my mood more than anything else. In terms of the sound I like a clean sharp and balanced sounds. Not too bass heavy or sharp, Nicely rounded and properly presented. I have listen to a number of other amps Cd players and speakers. Bryston, Sugden, Naim for the amps and CD players, Paradigms, Duntech and Totems for speakers. Loved the Duntech's and thought the Totems were more or less equvalent to my Paradigms. I am a big fan of the Sugden Class A Amps and Naim equipment. NAD was a compromise, that seems to provide awesome high end sound quality at affordable prices. I am not adverse to mixing matching the equipment. I had been thinking that I would upgrade the CD player to one that would allow me to add a DAC. Is there an advantage to adding a DAC? The room is largish, 18 by 24 feet. A leather couch, couple of leather chairs, several large plants, mix of carpet and ceramics on the floor, no curtains or window coverings. I am not clear what you mean by "really good speaker set up" or by "room treatments" Are we talking upgrades to cabling and egg cartons on the walls ;-). |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1456 Registered: Nov-05 | I think the weakest points are the CD player and the Preamp John, at a glance, I think you are right. I believe adding the C162 pre would certainly help, but most likely more so will a CDP upgrade. Technically, I'm a mope, but if pre amps were only source splitters then why bother with a variety of models in various price ranges? Cables may also be significent towards musical rightness, but like everything audio, our ears differ and we all have preferences. Which makes this infatuation with audio so much fun - and frustrating. For CDP - a NADC524 minimum, then Rega Apollo which I can testify is a very good improvement over the NAD. Then of course, there are many above those if you have the money. Now a question for you - I have the C272. Did you begin with a single C272 and add another or did you have a different amp to begin with? If you went from one 272 an added a second unit, were the differences really worth it and why (if more than just bigger soundstage)? |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 167 Registered: Jun-07 | I love the Studio 60's. Your cd player is a nice piece as well. You could always upgrade to a better cd player but IMO perhaps you could benefit from a upgraded pre/integrated amp. Something like this: http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M3-Dual-Mono-Integrated-Amplif ier OR http://www.bryston.ca/bp16_m.html MmmmMMmMmmmMM Sweet music. Overall I like your system the way it is. What Jan meant by room treatment was just that. Sound dampening, positioning of your furniture, Isolation, noise control..did I just repeat myself???lol Jan will know a lot more about it then I do. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2027 Registered: May-05 | John, Upgrade the CD player, then the pre-amp. I have a 523 sitting around that I recently replaced with a Rega Apollo. While the 523 was great in its day and is very convenient, its a dated design and CD players have moved on. I'd look into an NAD 542 as a minimum as MR suggested. If you can swing it, the Rega Apollo is twice the price at $1000, but worth every penny. If you liked what you heard in Naim, Rega has a similar presentation. If you're planning to keep the NAD amps, which are good amps, the you should go with the C162 (I think that's the current version) pre-amp. It should also make a good difference. The pre-amp sections of the 317'ish era of integrated amps may have been the weak point of the design. Not a bad intergated amp at all, but again, they've gotten better. My old 304 was a very similar design. After that |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 168 Registered: Jun-07 | Stu-I agree that both need to be upgraded. Which one do you think he would benefit from the most as far as making his system sound better? Just curious. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8187 Registered: Dec-04 | The cdp IMO. And then optimize speaker placement and look into softening up the room a bit. Sorry, softening might not suit your listening, John, but optimizing your listening place. Wall hangings, traps and such. Not all have to be obvious to the eye. Well Scottish Castle tapestries do stand out a bit. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11019 Registered: May-04 | . Have you done any of this stuff? http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?fr=ybr_sbc&p=speaker%20placement Or this stuff? https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/1664.html . |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 169 Registered: Jun-07 | He will def. benefit from a new CDP, but geezz replacing that 317 with a nice Pre...hmmmmm alright alright, new CDP it is. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2028 Registered: May-05 | Nick, After all the placement and room issues have been looked at as Jan is saying, the CD player should be replaced first, then the pre-amp. I don't think a pre-amp first will really show much improvement. A CD player upgrade will show a big improvement imediately, and a new pre-amp afterward will further refine the system, so to speak. Both will be an upgrade for sure. From experience with the particular equipment here, there's only so much that the equipment can be expected to do. |
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New member Username: SanioWaterloo, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3 Registered: Jul-07 | Wow... Thanks for all the help it is much appreciated. I really appreciate the advice regarding Speaker Placement and room treatments. I can do these immediately and will as soon as I get home. I can hardly wait to see my wife face when she see the Egg cartons on the wall. :-) I think the consensus is to upgrade the CDP. Which is they way I was leaning as well. I Have another question regarding CDP and DAC. Is there value to purchasing a DAC? What does it provide? My understanding is that it is software, a codex. M.R. asked... Now a question for you - I have the C272. Did you begin with a single C272 and add another or did you have a different amp to begin with? If you went from one 272 an added a second unit, were the differences really worth it and why (if more than just bigger soundstage)? M.R. I do believe that the additional Amp is worth the money. Not only is the soundstage broader, but the presentation is tighter, with great definition between the low, mid and high range. The overall sound is presented in a more realistic fashion, I am able to pick out the location of the instruments in 3 dimensions. I purchased the two amps together BUT, over the past several weeks I have had an opportunity to tinker with various configurations of my amps. (More on why later) I have tested the following configs: single amp - C317, C270, C272 Unbridged horizontally biamped - C270 highs, C272 Mid and Bass, 2 C272 - Bridged and unbridged Vertically biamped - 2 C270s, 2 C272s bridged and unbridged My thoughts are that in general the vertically biamped system is the ideal for clarity and presentation. I have listened to a friends' Bryston 4BSST An awesome amp, on a pair of Studio 60s and NAD CDP. Beautiful sound rounded, properly presented. Sounds amazing, but I cannot help thinking that it would be vastly improved with the addition of another Bryston. My least favourite was the horizontal biamp, where I noticed that on certain cuts (ie The Beatles - Here Comes the Sun - Abbey Road and Stevie Ray Vaugh - In Step) The high end Voices, Some guitar licks disappeared. This issue remained even after I played with the variable input option on the C270/C272. How I upgraded to the two C272s is a story of the incredible service that NAD/Lenbrook here in Canada provided. I cannot say enough how impressed I was with the service that was provided. Thank you NAD. I originally had two C270s, one of the two combusted (Capacitor exploded as per http://nadelectronics.com/articles/Ventilation-Notice) NAD/lenbrook replaced my Original C270 with the C272 with in 6 days of the failure, with no questions asked. I was of course ecstatic, a new more powerful amp. I was convinced that thru proper configuration I could adapt to the unbalanced nature of my system. I then went thru and tested all the different configs described above, My least favorite was the unbalanced vertically biamped. The power of the C272 always seemed to overpower the C270 regardless of the tweaking I had attempted. When I realized that I would need balanced amps, I went back to NAD/Lenbrook they again assisted me in replacing my older C270 with a new C272. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2030 Registered: May-05 | IMO, and its just my opinion, for a new CD player and a DAC is most often a waste of time. DACs can make the CD player sound better. They can also mess up music's timing. But if you need a better DAC on a new CD player, why not just get a better CD player? If you're going to spend $500 on a CD player and $500 on a DAC, I think a $1000 CD player would sound better. But that's just me. If its an older CD player that has a very good transport, then a new DAC may be the way to go. In some cases it'll sound better dollar for dollar. Keep in mind the 523 doesn't have a digital output. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 170 Registered: Jun-07 | John - Are you planning on buying the new cd player soon? I built my system around Home Theater, but in the last few months have been also leaning towards music a lot more. I am now thinking about upgrading my cd player, and buying a turntable and phono amp as well. Dammit...i knew I should have purchased the cd player before the blu-ray player. Oh well. I really want to know how much of a difference the Rega makes. Cheers. |
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New member Username: SanioSouth Wester... Canada Post Number: 4 Registered: Jul-07 | CD Player Soon??? I will start looking right away at the Rega and NAD 542, probably take some time to actually buy it. I would not buy a CD and DAC at the same time. I would likely buy a CD player that was capable of supporting a DAC. That way I would always have the option of going in that direction eventually. Stu... I would assume that I would require a Digital In on my Pre is that correct? Are there other changes required? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2033 Registered: May-05 | I don't really understand the question, John. You don't have a digital input on your pre-amp to run a CD player or need any other changes. You'd hook it up the same way you have your 523 hooked up. For the sake of arguement, if you buy a Rega Apollo, you'd connect it the same way you have your 523 connected. RCA outputs to the RCA inputs. If a pre-amp has a digital input, you'd hook the digital output of your CD player to it. This would bypass the DAC in the CD player and use the DAC in the pre-amp. If you were to use an external DAC, you'd use the digital out of the CD player into the digital input of the DAC, then connect the DAC to the pre-amp as you currently have your 523. Most 2 channel gear doesn't have a digital input. The configuration is basically like what you have now. The only time I would use a pre-amp's DAC or an external one would be if the player was older and/or had a DAC that was inferior to the pre-amp's. Again, if you're buying a new CD player, IMO it makes more sense to buy one with a DAC that doesn't require upgrading any time soon. |
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New member Username: SanioSouth Wester... Canada Post Number: 5 Registered: Jul-07 | Ohhh I see... The Digital out is FOR the DAC. Now I understand... |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 171 Registered: Jun-07 | Right on John, then I look forward to hearing the differences you hear between the NAD and Rega. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1460 Registered: Nov-05 | John, thanks for your answer on the various ways in which you tried the 272's. It makes sense and gives me more food for thought. Although I think my better half won't want me to think too much any more for a while  |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 607 Registered: May-06 | John, We are always willing to spend others' money so one more opinion offered. Have you thought about a tube pre-amp? Rogue of Conrad Johnson (was going to type CJ but remembered WAF, LOL). A tube pre-amp will provide you with different sound than what you are used to, my opinion. It would also match up well for a..... Rega Apollo! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8214 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, ya gotta move the bobber a little further up the line. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 611 Registered: May-06 | What? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8252 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, you seem to be fishing John into tubes. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 613 Registered: May-06 | Oh that! Me? No, no, no. John, jump in the water's fine. Tubes add warmth. John, try it, you might like it. Tubes can be colorful. John, what have you got to lose? Tubes can be addictive. Nuck, Is the bobber up the line enough now? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8255 Registered: Dec-04 | I'm nibbling at crawdads |
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Bronze Member Username: SanioSouth Wester... Canada Post Number: 19 Registered: Jul-07 | Damn... That waters is warm.... Oooohhhh what is that orange glow over there.... Hmmmm Hmmm I I think I will check it out.... Hmmmm Hmmmm Hmmm Let me arraggggg Somethin got me.... All Joking aside... I like the idea of testing out tubes on my Pre. Once I add the CDP. |
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