Speaker Wires? Monster?
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New member Username: FusionacidPost Number: 4 Registered: Jun-07 | I just bought new JBL Balboa 30 floor Speakers w/ center & a Pioneer VSX-1016TXV Receiver. I need to buy speaker wires now! I need 3 10ft cables & 2 35ft cables. I am thinking about the Monster XP Navajo White cables or Monster XP Cable's. What do you guys think or suggest. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1205 Registered: Oct-04 | Do not do it. Monster speaker wire is good quality, but definitely not worth the money. Similarily priced cables will produce a better result, and less priced cables will produce as good a result. I bought Monster 12 AWG all around and it's definitely my biggest regret in my system. I've switched to the below for my cable needs, but lots to choose from that are good and better value. http://www.wireworldcable.com/ |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 278 Registered: Jul-05 | monoprice.com for you speaker wire anything else from that point on will bring you back diminishing returns for your system IMO |
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Bronze Member Username: DevelaraPost Number: 25 Registered: Dec-06 | Check out QED cables , they are better then monster. dev. |
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Silver Member Username: MvanmeterKY USA Post Number: 116 Registered: Jan-06 | please, before you spend a ton of money on high priced speaker wires, try 14 gauge "zip cord" for the 10' runs and 12 gauge "zip cord" for the 25' runs. Zip cord is also known as "lamp cord" and is sold by the foot at Home Depot and Lowes. Polarity is marked by a raised ridge on one of the pair of wires, or a printed line, etc. Make the polarity the same on all your runs and you will be ok. some interesting reading: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire.htm |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 202 Registered: Apr-04 | Kano -- I'm with you on that - WIREWORLD!. I bought the Equinox 5 interconnect, and now I'm selling my StraightWire for some Solstice 5.2 bi-wired speaker cable! YES! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1934 Registered: May-05 | Has anyone tried the Canare 4S11? Blue Jeans Cable sells it, as do a bunch of other places. Any impressions? I'm thinking about experimenting with some, and stumbled across a great DIY thread on av123's forum - http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=17963 |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 147 Registered: Feb-07 | Home Depot is your friend. Well, when it comes to speaker cable. If you can find someone to cut it for you. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 460 Registered: May-06 | Home Depot? 100 ft. outdoor 16 gauge extension cord. ~$10.00. Cut it yourself. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2227 Registered: Sep-04 | I wouldn't buy anything expensive but I would buy something better than lamp cord. It's remarkable how much difference you can get from a decent bit of wire. Lamp cord is like using retreads of any old variety you can find on your new motor. They'll work but won't let it perform as well as it could. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: MvanmeterKY USA Post Number: 117 Registered: Jan-06 | Frank, I beg to disagee, but it has been proven in true blind A-B testing that decent 14 gauge or 12 gauge "lamp cord" is indestinguishable from the expensive stuff. What you say about cheap 18 gauge or smaller lamp cord is absolutely correct though. It's the diameter of the copper wires and not the price of the cables that makes the true difference. It all goes back to voltage drop over distance due to internal resistance in the conductor. But, this very public "war" has been fought in every conceivable forum since the early 1970's and there is no sign of a peace treaty yet. So, I have said my piece and leave it up to the owner of each system to spend their hard earned money as they see fit. Ultimately, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. 8-} |
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New member Username: FusionacidPost Number: 5 Registered: Jun-07 | how would you compare the home depot lamp cord with these monsters? 15 bucks or so difference isn't much for 30ft when I just purchased a $1200 audio system. QED cables seem pricey and I can't find an online store that sells "worldwire" cables. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-zlZDS49HFSw/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=22111&I=119XPNW3 0&search=Monster+VENDORID119&SearchDisplay=Monster |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 207 Registered: Apr-04 | If you want a very fine WireWorld Dealer try http://www.apolloa-v.com/servlet/StoreFront Unbeatable service and great clearance stuff. To see the website - Wireworldaudio.com |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5031 Registered: Feb-05 | "I beg to disagee, but it has been proven in true blind A-B testing that decent 14 gauge or 12 gauge "lamp cord" is indestinguishable from the expensive stuff. Pure BS. You are right about one thing though... "But, this very public "war" has been fought in every conceivable forum since the early 1970's and there is no sign of a peace treaty yet." And there won't be as long as you hear what you hear and others hear what they do. |
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Bronze Member Username: Josh784Seattle, WA Post Number: 76 Registered: Mar-07 | Stu - I don't have the quad cable, but I do have the 12awg Belden cable from Blue Jeans, and I'm perfectly happy with it. It's terminated with their locking banana plugs, and is a very good quality setup. I'm not much of a believer in high priced cables, and the Blue Jeans stuff is exactly what I was looking for. I compared the Belden cable to some Chord cable, and noticed no difference. Same with my interconnects. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1936 Registered: May-05 | Thanks Josh. Now that I've upgraded my integrated amp and CD player - from NAD 320BEE and 523 changer to Bryston B60 and Rega Apollo - I think its time to upgrade the speaker wire next. My Best Buy Acoustic Research cable isn't exactly the best way to maximize my investment. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 465 Registered: May-06 | Art, It is not pure BS, that is just your opinion. I have found that my Goertz M3 Divinity - Retail $53 foot, was not as good as Home Depot 16 AWG outdoor extension cord at about a dime a foot. They were similar but the Home Depot cord was not sibilant as was the Goertz and the imaging was improved. I have since upgraded my sound by moving to a less expensive creation than the Home Depot Outdoor Extension cord. That will be a different post. Please don't be so quick to declare something BS as it could cause someone to spend $$$ they might not need to if you discourage them from trying the inexpensive alternative first. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1938 Registered: May-05 | Mike, I don't think that was what Art was saying. I believe he was saying that the entire 'wire is wire' arguement is BS, with which I concur. Keep in mind he used to use a pretty inexpensive cable himself (Liberty Cable), and has stated time and again that cost has little to do with a cable's preformance. He's also recommended inexpensive alternatives on a number of occasions, with more things than cables. Art, Sorry if I put words in your mouth. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 470 Registered: May-06 | Stu, Perhaps I read Art's statement wrong so I did the obvious and re-read it from your perspective. It still comes across as "no way could someone listen to decent lamp cord and have it be indistinguishable from the expense stuff". I completely disagree with that and if this was 6 months ago and it was me looking for direction I would not buy anything at other than a true audiophile store based on what camp Art's response may end up having me in. While you very well may be right in your interpretation of Art's post it is not consistent with how I saw it. I have been around the block on this with my system, upgrading ICs and speaker wire with something more ($$$). Now I have done a 180 and am using about as little as possible for ICs and speaker wire and am getting so much more out of it. I have a couple of more things to build to see if I can get anything more out of my system, not likely but I am still tinkering. When I am done I will update. And no I am not all that creative, what I am doing is taking advice offered on this forum, or reading links posted on other ecoustics threads. It's just awful damn hard to pull out a couple of thousand dollars work of ICs, cables, and stuff out of your system, replace it with budget stuff, and accept that it is really a hell of a lot better. At least for me it was difficult to go to. I figure it would be better if someone could try budget options before spending on audiophile stuff to see if it could work for them. If budget stuff works use it. If you then trial "better" stuff and find it is cost justifiable, by all means do what you feel is best for you listening experience and go for it. Doesn't mean that different budget stuff can't come along and best your "better" stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7694 Registered: Dec-04 | You better you better you bet..whooo woooo.... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5037 Registered: Feb-05 | Michael, did you hear a difference in speaker cable, if you did then they are not virtually indistinguishable...irregardless of price. No one said that the most expensive is always better and in fact I have frequently stated that price is not a good indicator of quality for cable. Stu, you read the post the way in which I meant it. Sorry for the confusion. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 471 Registered: May-06 | Art, I stand corrected, however the point of the "indistinguishable" statement appeared to be that lamp wire could be as good as audiophile speaker wire. It is entirely possibly someone would not hear a difference under given circumstances. I happen to hear differences in just about everything, except maybe if I turned one of my black diamond cones point up instead of point down under a piece of gear. Not all differences are good either. If I added to the confusion I apologize for that. And speaking of confusion, Nuck quoting the Who? |
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Bronze Member Username: Josh784Seattle, WA Post Number: 79 Registered: Mar-07 | Speaking purely for myself, what disenchants me the most about any cable or interconnect worth more than $50 is that the manufacturers don't really seem to have any idea why it sounds better than a cheaper alternative. Then I get my hands on some Chord interconnects to try out, and can't help but notice that the build quality and tolerances are much worse than my cheap Blue Jeans stuff. I spend most of the money I have pretty easily, but for now the audiophile cable market is not something I'm going to get sucked into. Maybe once I have my room fully treated and can better hear the intricacies of my CD collection I'll be more likely to pick up on differences between my Blue Jeans cables and higher priced stuff, but I have my doubts. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1941 Registered: May-05 | Josh, You should definitely get everything setteled before you start looking into what cables are doing what IMO. It took a while of living with my previous system to be able to hear differences. To different people, the difference between subtle and night and day differences are subjective, not objective. My interpretation of a subtle difference might be your night and day difference. However, when all is said and done, a subtle difference over a course of time can and most likely will become night and day. If you've been listening to your system for 2-3 hours per day over a course of 3-4 years, and change out that speaker cable with 'subtle' differences, you'll notice it immediately. If you've been listening to the system for a few weeks, you probably won't notice a thing. I think this is where the double-blnd testing arguement fails. Just my opinions. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5039 Registered: Feb-05 | "It is entirely possibly someone would not hear a difference under given circumstances." Yep, I've never questioned that someone may not hear the difference. I get a bit torqued when those who can't or don't hear a difference say that there isn't a difference. Indeed, all difference aren't good. An example of that was when I was experimenting with Analysis Plus cables. At every level of their cables, as I moved up through their product lines, I heard a substantial difference which at first appeared to be an improvement but over the course of several weeks of listening was not. I came to prefer their least expensive interconnect with their second least expensive Speaker cable. The Oval One interconnect is still what I consider a killer interconnect for under $100. Had my system consisted of other brands of componenets my results may have been much different. Stu's points are very good ones. The more familiar you are with the sound of your system the more likely you are to notice substantial differences with seemingly small changes. Also remember that some folks have many years of experience listening, whether that helps or hinders is still up for debate.  |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10681 Registered: May-04 | . "Also remember that some folks have many years of experience listening, whether that helps or hinders is still up for debate." ? . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10682 Registered: May-04 | . Remember, many people have many years experience not hearing. |
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Bronze Member Username: KillamabillaClear Lake, TX USA Post Number: 13 Registered: May-07 | agree with Art, upgrading speaker wire took my system to a whole other level! HD lamp cord will do ok but theres better and its not Monster. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7701 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, you didn't quote the smiley..oh yeah you  everythng. I have to agree with the direction that Art has taken. Not all of us know how to listen. When I was a kid, it was all volume. Listen more and more, hear different stuff, and your listening changes. I know you always listen different, JV, but Art's post is right on 99 and 44/100 of the time. Especially when a new listener is on the box. |
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New member Username: FusionacidPost Number: 6 Registered: Jun-07 | Anything better than lamp cord or monster that doesn't cost an arm or a leg? For example, $1 to $2 per ft. or something. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1945 Registered: May-05 | Fusionacid, While I hope I'm not going to offend you here, I highly doubt you'll hear much of a difference, if any at all. I say this because your equipment isn't the most revealing in my opinion. That doesn't mean that I think its bad. Because you have some long runs, I'd suggest the Canare 4S11 from Blue Jeans cable. I'm not in a position to get too technical, but from what I've read its a very good cable for long runs. Somkething to do with Inductance, Resistance, and another spec or two. Its $1.05 per foot. http://bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: KillamabillaClear Lake, TX USA Post Number: 15 Registered: May-07 | Acoustic Research is pretty good and heard good things about Blue Jeans Cables. am very happy with this stuff: http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=cables&product=24.1 |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10687 Registered: May-04 | . I stand by my post. "Remember, many people have many years experience not hearing." Even fewer have any experience thinking about what they hear - or read. But, it would seem we've lost Fusionacid to the disputes that always come with cable threads. Fusionacid, if you're still here, go buy some HD cable or Wallmart's white outdoor extension cable and use it first. Strip the insulation carefully and make certain you have good clean copper on the ends of the cable twisted into a neat bundle, no bare ends. Bare wire connections are best rather than banana plugs. Both cables do a nice job of bridging the gap between "wire is wire" and the more expensive stuff and no one should raise their nose at the HD or Wallmart cable in your system. They get 99 and 44/100th's of the music right. With these as your reference for what $10 or less will buy you in cables, you can then proceed to hear and spend whatever you prefer. To play devil's advocate, what makes a statement BS when it comes to what any one person percieves? It seems we have quite a few members who advocate what they hear without regard to what the O.P. might want to hear. Members stop conversations with, "That's not what I hear". Certainly! How can I argue with that "logic"? But, if that is your basis for what you choose to own, who are you to suggest that what anyone else hears is not valid or their suggestion is BS? Who are you to then suggest that the other person's views and hearing have any less validity than your own? Why should you suggest anyone spend money on something they can't hear for themself? And what they choose to own is their business if it produces what they want to hear. It is not BS unless you can back up your statements with something that can be taken to the bank. Literally! And, quite honestly, a decent 16 A.W.G. cable can, in all likelyhood, be taken as a very safe bet. That can't be said for most "audiophile" cables that actually screw with the sound. How about someone shows me why "decent 14 gauge or 12 gauge 'lamp cord'" isn't OK. Or why Acoustic Research cables aren't maximizing your investment. Not just that's what you hear or not hear or have been told. Your system is your system and you get to hear what you like to hear. Is that BS? If you want to change, that's fine; just know why you're changing and what you expect. 'Cause it certainly might be BS when some advertisement says you should buy this or that cable. Show me a reason why you recommend something and don't just dismiss any idea as BS because it isn't what you agree with. Particularly not with cables. If you hear something special in a cable, then you should be able to identify what that is and explain it to the forum. If you can't be consistent with what you recommend and do it for the betterment of the O.P., you're just spouting your opinion. And, at that point, your opinion is not much more than BS. It surely won't be helpful when the O.P. gets twenty different opinions with no facts attached. . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1949 Registered: May-05 | From Audioholics, whom many 'wire is wire' people follow - "...the engineers at Acoustic Research may wish to reconsider this if they would prefer to design a more accurate, less "tone control" type speaker cable. This cable measured the highest inductance (no surprise) out of all of the cables in this review." Does this mean that Audioholics believes that cables do in fact have some sonic signature? The full article - http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/speaker-cable-reviews-faceoff-2/speake r-cable-reviews-faceoff-2-page-5 "Or why Acoustic Research cables aren't maximizing your investment." I point to the research done by Audioholics as a small part of why I feel Acoustic Research cables aren't exactly maximizing my investment. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 536 Registered: Feb-05 | The Question should be what does cable "X" offer at $10 or more a foot that another cable or lampcord at $1-9 a foot does not. I don't have a vast array of experience with speaker wire, have used Monster,AR,Belden and various brands of "lamp cord" and honestly cannot hear a difference in a receiver based system. In fact the only time I felt I had heard a difference was when I went from 16AWG down to 10AWG. If anyone can hear a difference between various brands speaker wire of the same gauge in a receiver based system please come forward and enlighten us with your discovery and bombard us with fact after fact. I think it could possibly make a difference in a higher end system in certain circumstances though. I'll be fair and not call the difference some claim to hear "BS" but as it's asked, provide some proof,not opinion of the difference you hear. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10690 Registered: May-04 | . "I'll be fair and not call the difference some claim to hear "BS" but as it's asked, provide some proof,not opinion of the difference you hear." I'm not totally against opinions. For most of us that's all there is to go on. But I'd like to know why you concluded what you now call your opinion. Just because you spent the money on the stuff? What did you hear? What didn't you hear now or before? Do you have any clue why that would be? Do you think this is what the O.P. would find appropriate? Why? If you have facts, bring 'em on. Let's really try to help someone rather than just make our own purchases valid in some obscure manner. Here's an opinion that I think most of us can agree qualifies as a fact. The HD cables are good solid construction with decent materials. As such they qualify as a cable that f*cks with the sound in very minor ways. That cannot be said about a lot of the more expensive cables on the market. Just letting the music happen goes along way in my system. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 537 Registered: Feb-05 | It all boils to how the cable is constructed Stu. If a speaker wire has an unusual design,meaning that it imparts from the standard twisted rope lay with both conductors seperated by insulation.Although only half the story, this basic design certainly yields the best measurements in terms of ,R,L and C as clearly evident in the Audioholics testing. I think what they(Audioholics) meant is that a cable can impart a sonic signature,not in a good way if it is poorly designed, too much again of R,L,or C. Some swear by Litz wire but it's C is off the scale,that is why these cables must be very short and used with great care. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10691 Registered: May-04 | . From the Audioholic's conclusion page; "Many ... forum cult hobbyists insist on the abandonment of measurements and engineering truths in favor of subjective listening tests in hopes that the listener will think they hear a difference, even if none exists, to justify their unproven claims ... " Forgive me if I say Audioholics articles are difficult for me to read. They say nothing and wrap it up in techno-gobble and jibber jabber. I really didn't get much from that article. This is their summary of inductance within a cable's construction; "The theory behind negligible inductance at high frequencies is within a wire carrying DC, there is a uniform current density profile." My dear, if you are driving your speakers with DC, you won't have long to listen for the effects of inductance. Read their notes and the problem of inductance in a cable is miminal. "For very closely spaced conductors, the internal inductance terms may become important, especially at or below audio frequencies. Note: It is extremely important to minimize B to minimize total cable inductance." May become important?! When? Yes, it is important to minimize inductance in a cable just as it is to minimze resistance and most especially capacitance. But inductance and capacitance in a cable are mutually exclusive. Damn! They didn't mention that! "Audioholics on the other hand is not a faith-based website." "This cable measured the highest inductance (no surprise) out of all of the cables in this review." And what does that mean? That doesn't say it affects the sound of the cable at audio frequencies. If a cable is twisted to minimze inductance, you will increase capacitance. It is a dual edged sword that you must tread. (And, actually, unless my eyes have crossed, they are not the highest inductance cables across the frequency band in the test.) How do you know your system is bothered by the amount of inductance the AR cables present? That they were the highest inductance cables in the test doesn't mean anything if your amplifier is happy with the load. Remember, the word "may" in the explanation given. If you switch to a higher capacitance cable, won't that have a similar, if different, effect on the sound? You would therefore be swapping one type of tone control (assuming that is what the AR cables are doing in your system) for another type of tone control. And one you may not predict. Tell me this, if the amount of inductance in the AR cable is what you feel is keeping your system from its maximium performance, what would be the right cable to achieve that maximization and why? . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10692 Registered: May-04 | . "Stay tuned for our detailed analysis, conclusions and recommendations... " Was this ever published? |
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New member Username: FusionacidPost Number: 7 Registered: Jun-07 | Excellent recommendations from everyone. I would just like to thank each and every one of you for taking the time to participate in this thread. My receiver is arriving on Tuesday!!! I am going with the Canare 4S11 Cable. Canare 4S11 Cable: http://bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm I have a question regarding connectors.... My receiver says is has: Large Banana Speaker Terminals( L/R/C/LS/RS/SBL/SBR) How are Large Banana Terminals compared to standard size? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10698 Registered: May-04 | . Bananas are bananas. Geeze, that hurt to type. The inference is the connector on the back of the receiver is "large". The better to see you with. The size of the connecting shaft on a banana plug is standardized and should be the same for all banana plugs and their appropriate jacks. Banana plugs can be constructed differently but they should all be the same relative size when they make contact inside the jack. Let me know if the receiver arrives with Large Bananas on it. . |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 538 Registered: Feb-05 | From what I know the skin effect does not come into play until about 100KHZ or about 5 times the upper limit of the audible bandwith so any cable "designed to minimize to skin effect",I would have to call BS on that. In a DC circuit the current flows evenly and completely through the wire so there is no skin effect. Unless it's a very unusual, very unorthodox design with regard to cable engineering principles design, high inductance is very seldom a problem, with shorter runs about 15' or less of 16AWG or longer runs of 14AWG or larger neither is resistance. The greatest danger would be high C,which is not caused by a twisting of bare conductors,but by seperating each individual conductor with insulation and then twisting them together-Litz wire. To much C can cause a SS amplifier to oscillate, not good at all. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 475 Registered: May-06 | I am thinking you are on track with your last post Eric. My current speaker wires have clear packing tape for skins. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 539 Registered: Feb-05 | I don't know what you found disageeable in my previous post before the last but thanks MW. Actually what happens when you take bare stranded conductors and twist them in a rope construction, C can be raised VERY SLIGHTLY but still will be quite inconsequential. Now take the the same conductors and sheath each individually in a dielectric and twist them all together and you will increase the level of C three times or more over the stranded rope lay, a proven effective design with very reasonable and moderate levels of R,L and C. I guess you may surmise I'm not a fan of Litz wire,especially when it's constructed from Cat 5 which is unsuitable for speaker wire, and questioned it's use on a couple of occasions with another member. These wanna be "hyper-Litz" DIY designs made from Cat5 are the worst ,are a crock and a bane for a SS amplifier. I'm currently using this and happy with it-http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=255-510CL No fancy dielectric or funky conductor spacers, just standard parallel rope lay thats very flexible and beefy @ 10AWG, which in the same guage solid wire is hell to work with. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10700 Registered: May-04 | . Here's the way it's been explained to me by several cable manufacturers; Any two or more conductor cable will have both capacitance and inductance as basic parameters of the cable's overall impedance. There are numerous ways to mitigate the effects of both but usually one gives way at the expense of the other. The best way to minimize capacitance is to separate the conductor legs of the cable. A spaced pair will have decreasing capacitance as the distance between the conductor legs is increased. However, unless the spacing is wide enough to minimze interaction between the conductor legs, this spaced pair will have increased inductance compared to a twisted pair. If you space the legs far enough apart (the suggestions I've read indicate four to six inches depending on frequency), the capacitance and inductance of the cable will both be minimized since the legs of the cable do not "see" each other or talk back and forth. Obviously, most people do not want six inch wide speaker cables laying on their floor or behind their equipment cabinets, but this will minimze the most problematic effects of two conductor cabling. And what is worse, a thick rope that sounds bad or a thin ribbon that minimizes the ill effects of cabling? If you apply a "gentle" twist to the stranded conductor legs, you'll have a minimal capacitance increase over a simple spaced parallel run. (By bringing the insulated conductor legs in closer proximity to each other, all things equal, capacitance must rise.) But, in this configuration, the inductance of the pair will barely be affected as the cable is still running more or less in parallel. As you twist the conductor legs more tightly together, you cross a line where the conductor's signal carrying wires begin to interact with the conductor's dielectric through dielectric absorption and the cable begins to function more and more as a capacitor with signal/dielectric/signal touching. This is the description of a capacitor, battery or condensor. You'll lower inductance for sure but increase capacitance dramatically. A simple twisted pair such as two legs of the HD three conductor cable will represent a decent balance between inductance and capacitance. Twisted two conductor speaker cables will typically have lower capacitance than twisted four (or more) conductor cables where the conductor legs naturally must be closer together in the twist creating multiple points where the virtual capacitor has been set up. Noise rejection will be higher for the twisted four conductor cable vs. a two conductor design but noise is seldom a problem in speaker cables. Multiple conductor cables such as Kimber tend to be very low noise due to their construction by rejecting RF and EM interference but tend to be higher in capacitance than most two conductor twisted cables. And, of course, the dielectric material and thickness will have a large influence on the capacitance of the overall cable. Insulating materials with a lower dielectric constant will have less capcitance with the same construction compared to cables with less desirable insulation materials. Teflon works very well but so do other materials with a low dielectric constant, Mike's simple packing tape for example. The thicker the dielectric material, the lower the capacitance for any given dielectric as the conductors are pushed farther from one another but the larger, stiffer cable will probably become more difficult to use. As an example of capacitance due to cable construction; http://www.empiricalaudio.com/frmicrodrca.html "3. Twisted-Pair Configuration The conductors are twisted at a rate of 12-16 twists per foot, which serves to reduce the susceptibility to external electric and magnetic field noise sources. The noise-canceling effects of twisted-pairs are well-understood. When noise signals are superimposed on the conductors, this generally occurs "common-mode", where the direction of current flow is the same for both conductors. The twisted-pair configuration tends to cancel these common current flows because the fields created around the conductors repel each other. These twists would normally cause an increase in the capacitance and a decrease in the inductance of the interconnect, but because the conductors are spaced in an air dielectric and are orthogonal (90 degrees) at the conductor crossings, the capacitance is minimized. Orthogonal contact of the conductors between each spacer prevents the signal on one conductor from electrically or magnetically coupling to the other conductor, which would increase the interconnect capacitance. Signals in parallel conductors tend to couple, orthogonal conductors minimize signal coupling." And; http://ultimateavmag.com/features/605cable/index1.html (Though this is in specific reference to interconnects. The effects of construction in interconnects and speaker cables are, however, mostly similar.) "Several companies use a quad configuration in their balanced cables instead of a twisted pair; Canare calls this Star Quad. The design uses four conductors twisted around each other; opposing pairs are connected at either end. According to former Canare COO Barry Brenner, "Star Quad gives you 20 dB better noise rejection than standard 2-conductor cable. You can be less concerned about running a Star Quad cable near a high-level line such as AC." Quad construction is great for rejecting RFI and EMI, but it has a little higher capacitance, so the high-frequency response may not be quite as good as a single twisted pair." I agree that Litz wire used as speaker cabling is dangerous but find it quite useful in a few other applications as an interconnect. It is usually a matter of diminishing returns, however, considering its significantly higher cost vs. actual gains in most applications. Regarding skin effect, I think the jury is in favor of thinking it should be accounted for whether the math indicates it will affect a cable at audio frequencies or not. This is probably a case of measurements catching up to ears. Therefore, your 10 A.W.G. cable might require rethinking. "However, Low disagrees. "The subjective effect in a single strand that's too large, anything above 18 gauge or so, is that the top end seems rolled off. The imaging and sense of space is lost. Fortunately, the solution to skin effect is easy. Just use a single strand that is smaller than 18 gauge." But, if you are more interested in getting all the current possible from your amp to your speakers, you might want to hang on to the 10 A.W.G. Personally, the best speaker cables I've used have always been somewhat on the thin side. . |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 287 Registered: Jan-07 | Fusionacid, I intend no disparagement, but with the system you describe, standard lampcord will be just fine. Now when one gets into the "high end", cables can make an audible difference. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10714 Registered: May-04 | . Another technical tour de force, dorkboy. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 540 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm assuming that last comment is directed a JBJ,but anyway I've been busy lately and wanted to respond. Of course Bill Low disagrees, after all his company is selling cable a $100/ftand more. I think if you'll do a little more research you will discover that the vast majority(except those who stand to tremendously profit) of the scientific/audio community agrees that skin-effect is inconsequential at audio frequencies. Shielding is certainly a must in an interconnect cable that operates at much higher frequencies than a speaker wire but I thought we were in agreement that speaker level signals were below the level of RF ingression. Shielding may be useful to reject EMI when wires are run in close proximity to strong magnetic fields, but for this to be a reality you would have to wrap your cables around your amplifier,the field around the wire is just not strong enough. Some designs boast shielding to reject RFI and EMI but at the expense of increased capacitance and rolled-off high frequencies, no thank you. I've never met or heard of another human who can hear skin-effect in a wire or current flow in a wire with a relative low voltage signal which can only be measured by sophisticated instruments, this would certainly be a revelation that would send the scientific community scrambling back to the drawing board- although good for a laugh I'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen. In my experience with electronics,particulary when I was studying 3ph. AC distribution, It is true that you can actually hear the current flowing through very high voltage lines in certain situations as evident by the "buzzing" and "fizzy" sound. Yep I think Ill keep my 10AWG because I do want to send every available electron to my speakers, isn't this after all a way of maximizing the performance of my system? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10729 Registered: May-04 | . No. More on that later. No offense, ER, but you sound like an engineer. And my doctor sounds like a person indoctrinated with studies done by the pharmaceutical industry when I ask about alternative therapies. And my dog's vet sounds like someone who went to school on a scholarship provided by Dow Chemical when I tell him I have no fleas in the yard due to the organic approach to soil management which I apply. And I sound like someone who sold audio gear. None of those are necessarily bad unless you find ways to demonize them without merit. Neither is right where the other is wrong either. But I have the right to decide what works in my own situation and I would appreciate not having some well intentioned soul with an education telling me I cannot be doing things correctly when I get the results I desire. Certainly not without that soul being open to my side of the argument also. If I am endangering my health and safety or that of someone around me, that's different; but I doubt my choice of speaker cable is endangering anyone. I am hardly an advocate of the "can't measure it, can be heard" school of audio design. Nor am I in favor of only treading along the lines of, "I hear it therefore it must exist, engineering be damned!" I believe in good engineering but I don't believe engineering is static. At one point no one ascribed a sound to capacitors since the math and engineering said there was no "sound" of capacitors and the measurements agreed. At one point we knew less than we know now. What would keep us from learning more as time proceeds? I suspect most high end consumer audio designers feel it is worth finding the correct cap to get the sound they desire. Whether that is sound engineering or mere fashion is for the individual contemplating a purchase to decide. Slowly good engineering finds why things occur, but it does not always dictate what cannot happen. I place skin effect in that same category. If you choose not to, that's fine by me. Personally, I find it short sighted to dismiss an idea based on the premise it is promoted by someone who stands to profit from the idea's acceptance. Marconi would be shining shoes if that were the case. Television broadcast would still be a laughable pipedream. But those are the politics of cables at the moment. Diminish the person rather than inspect the idea. I would disagree that shielding is a "must" for interconnects. For quite some time now I've run interconnects with no shielding. I can't get away with it on my 12' run between pre amp and power amplifiers but the 3' and shorter cables do fine bare as a jay bird (shield wise) and without the added capacitance of a shield. I would guess my present interconnects and speaker cables have lower inductance and capacitance than all but one other forum member's cables. A shield has become a convention that is best included in generic interconnects where shielding might be required. But I would encourage everyone interested in an experiment to try a cable without shielding just to hear whether their location is susceptible to RFI or not. Out of curiousity, please explain this, "Shielding is certainly a must in an interconnect cable that operates at much higher frequencies than a speaker wire ... " Am I understanding you correctly that interconnects pass signals at higher frequencies than speaker cables? At what point between interconnect and speaker cable are the higher audio frequencies lost? Wouldn't the loss of high frequencies within the audio bandwidth make an amplifier defective? Or, have I really, really missed something all these years? " ... I thought we were in agreement that speaker level signals were below the level of RF ingression." I'm not sure what we're discussing here. That a speaker cable cannot be a tuned resonator? That antenna theory doesn't apply to speaker cables? I think most people would agree speaker cables are less susceptible to RFI than smaller signal interconnects, yes. But speaker cables below the level of ingress? If I take the folded dipole off the back of my tuner and strip the ends to make it work as a speaker cable, what has happened to the "antenna" I had in my hands just the moment before? I'm not sure what your point is here, ER. Are you merely arguing that a parallel run of cable is all that is required? OK, but take that parallel run off your speaker and attach it to the antenna posts on your tuner. What happens? If you are only arguing against a few claims made by a few cable sellers, fine. But look at the back of most modern home theatres and tell me you don't see more potential for greater RF and EM pickup than your grandfather faced in his simple mono hifi. Like I said, I'm not really sure what your point is. You sound somewhat like an engineer who's p!ssed (or laughing) at the claims some cable manufacturers make. OK. Possibly you are objecting to the increased capacitance of many cable designs. OK, that we can agree on. But how much capacitance is too much? Like most other things in audio, everything becomes a trade off. To get this you will give up that. Most well built amplifiers, even those in receivers, are not bothered by the minor increases in capacitance cables such as Kimber introduce to the circuit. In the case of most solid state receivers and lower priced power amplifiers a bit of capacitance might actually be a good thing between amplifier and speaker. That you reject any increase in capacitance at all is again sounding a bit like an engineer and not like someone who has listened to the cables in question; "Some designs boast shielding to reject RFI and EMI but at the expense of increased capacitance and rolled-off high frequencies, no thank you." My opinion, cheap receiver/cheap speakers, please, roll those highs. "I've never met or heard of another human who can hear skin-effect in a wire or current flow in a wire with a relative low voltage signal which can only be measured by sophisticated instruments ... " OK, you lost me at, " ... or current flow ... ". I don't know what you're referring to there. In a wire? A wire? Are you arguing against measuring or against hearing? However, "skin effect". "I've never met or heard of another human who can hear skin-effect ... " Maybe you should get out more. I can't prove it exists at audio levels any more than anyone else can. It is not unreasonable to me that what is heard is what is actually happening. And if I can believe there is a reason for what I hear then that's a beginning point and that's where I'll start. If I have a virus and I take an herb, I think I would be remiss not to think there is a cause and effect if I feel better afterwards. If I hear a thick cable and I find it objectionable, then I have a right to think there might be a reason for that sound. I've never met anyone who can hear a squarewave but I respect amplifiers designed to reproduce them. If you feel otherwise about any of those things, that's your right also. But engineering is not static. If we hear it but we can't measure it, that has proven what? That we should have a good laugh? Edison is rolling. "In my experience with electronics,particulary when I was studying 3ph. AC distribution, It is true that you can actually hear the current flowing through very high voltage lines in certain situations as evident by the "buzzing" and "fizzy" sound." Again I'm at a loss. What's that mean? "Yep I think Ill keep my 10AWG because I do want to send every available electron to my speakers, isn't this after all a way of maximizing the performance of my system?" Well, like I said at the top, no. You should want to send and deliver ever electron required to accurately recreate the original input signal. But to send every electron available would infer you want to blow your speaker up with every last bit of current available from your amplifier. I'm of the school that a bit more than required is sufficient if lots more leads to poor reproduction of the input and sending "every available electron to my speakers" is probably not going to sound good. I doubt you require 10A.W.G. to get adequate (and all available not to mention sufficient) current from your HK receiver to your speakers even on short term peaks. Yes? No? As I said, my preference is for a thinner cable that can allow sufficient electrons to get from point A to point B and really no more. Once again, you get to use whatever you prefer, but in this case, your choice would not be my own. . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 760 Registered: Apr-06 | " I would guess my present interconnects and speaker cables have lower inductance and capacitance than all but one other forum member's cables." Hmmm?? What might those be? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7733 Registered: Dec-04 | Wait till you hear, Steve. You'll love it! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10732 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/342576.html Scroll down to the bottom of the thread. I've done similar cables for Mike Wodek and he can chime in with his impressions if he sees this thread. These are not for everyone and the cables are rather fragile depending on the construction technique. I think I mention in the above thread, that my system is very unlike those most forum members use; so this cable works for me, I can't guarantee it will do the same for anyone else. I also take no responsibility for any screw ups anyone manages if they construct these cables. . |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 482 Registered: May-06 | This was such a good article that I am repostng it here, but to open at page 1 instead of page 2 in case someone did not page back on the original posting from Jan above. http://ultimateavmag.com/features/605cable/index.html |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 484 Registered: May-06 | This is the what I have changed over to in my system. (If you check out my profile you will see that I pulled about $2,000 worth of wire and isolation material out of my system and have replaced it with about $18 worth of products.) Speaker Wire - Interconnects both bought at Radio Shack as a DIY project care of Jan. I have removed the Goertz Divinity M3 and Element Cable Twisted pair and (temporarily used HD Light Duty 18 AWG outdoor extension cord) now have in place a 9 1/2 ft. run of 26 AWG RS magnet wire, single strand, parallel run seperated by packing tape for the main (full range) binding post and 2 ~12 ft. 22 AWG RS magnet wire (twisted pair) from sub-amp to 2nd coil binding post on the Gallo Ref. 3.1 speakers. The full range is run with my 375 wpc Carver amp and the Gallo SA to the 2nd coil puts out 160 wpc @ 8 ohms. My interconnects from my Saturn to my Rogue Audio 99 Magnum pre-amp is RS 30 AWG w/ RS connectors, about 1 1/2 ft. and from pre-amp to Carver Amp is RS 30 AWG w/ RS connectors about 3 ft. No tape or shielding on the interconnects. I had a very interesting couple of days speaking to numerous dealers about my system to gain insight to a change I had considered (no longer under consideration so no need to explain). In expressing what I wanted to do I defined my system to each of them, including speaker wire and interconnect. Every last one of them told my my speaker wires and interconnects are hurting my system. That I am losing "something", that I cannot deliver all the power with such thin wire, that I needed shielding on my ICs, and on and on. I have a friend who asked if he can bring the marshmellows as I melt my speaker wire or cook my amp with the 375 wpc into 26 AWG speaker wire. I listen to loud levels quite often. After a couple of hours of this I have felt my amp, lukewarm. Felt the speaker wire, room temperature. I do not need to switch back to my previous speaker wire or ICs to identify what I lost by going this "minimalist" route as a couple of dealers suggested. I know what my other wires sounded like and I did not have this level of detail, width of soundstage, precision of bass, clarity in all positions relative to imaging. I do not run 375 or 160 wpc into my speakers 100% of the time. So I do not need 18 AWG or 10 AWG. The Goertz speaker wire was nice, but it was veiled and sibilant compared to the DIY RS stuff Jan either built for me or worked with me on. Just because it didn't cost but a couple or bucks does not meant that there isn't engineering to support it. Just look at the link in my post above. What I do not understand is the criticism of this, whether it be forum members or dealers. I have tried quite a variety of cables and ICs and have improved many times along the way. Does anyone here think it was easy for me to put aside aobut $2K worth of investment to replace with less than a double saw-bucks worth? Hell no it wasn't easy. But it was the only thing to do when I heard everything I heard as the changes were made. And to the critics spouting about what I lost, nothing. I really listened tonight with emphasis on varying aspects and I cannot find anything missing from my sound. Unless you have heard my system, with the parts I removed back in place, then with the DIY RS parts inserted, you may continue to have doubts, be it about my listening skills or my sanity. My listening skills are pretty decent, many question my sanity however. Last word, my system is very different than Jan's I believe and this works for me as well. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7734 Registered: Dec-04 | Told ya you'd love it! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7735 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, why the uninsulated/unprotected interconnects? Is packing tape an impediment here? And RS connectors, Jan had indicated that the Swichcraft plugs were the preference, and RS plugs sound 'nasty'. Lay on sommore info, please. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 762 Registered: Apr-06 | Well, what can I say; I'm happy with my Monster wiring. They sell a 16AWG twisted pair wire which is more than sufficient from a technical standpoint for my usage (although in my case, I could use 26AWG wiring without any ill effects). It was priced acceptably (say, 15 bucks for a 20 foot spool), and it isn't an eye-sore like larger 12 or 10 gauge wiring. I also own Monster interconnects as they provide a good balance of quality (shielded, excellent connectors), usability (flexible), and price, and I'd even rate them a superior to the Audioquest interconnects I owned in flexibility and connector quality. As far as Jan's cable, I'd be curious to see what its capacitance and inductance are. I do have a spool of 24AWG wiring available to me, so I could experiment at home a little if I get some free time... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10737 Registered: May-04 | . I stated the RS banana plugs sound bad. I said I prefer the RS screw type RCA's for their sound quality. Mike is not using RS bananas at any connection, I have twenty or more year old Monster ExTerminator locking bananas at my speaker connection only because the Rogers 3/5a's of the time were only supplied with such jacks, I have no other connection I can use for these speakers. Otherwise, all speaker level connections on my and Mike's system are made with bare wire. Pamona and Switchcraft both make screw type bananas with minimal material, that is what I'm listening for with these cables. So far, I just haven't made a concerted effort to find a shop that sells either brand that doesn't require a minimum purchase since I only require two pairs. I have some old Pamonas in a box somewhere and someday I'll probably pull them out but there's no rush. The Exterminators sound OK. The magnet wire is insulated. There is a very thin lacquer finish to the wire's surface with a very low dielectric constant. There just isn't a thick PVC or Teflon insulation around the cable. Read some about dielectric absorption in cable articles. It was one of the first areas addressed in audio cable design many years ago. Did they get it right? Make up some of these cables and then decide. Mike's two conductor interconnects were made out of expediency. The Saturn player doesn't have a surface that isn't covered with paint or plastic, so there's no easy grounding point to the chassis of the player. I put together a simple two conductor interconnect for Mike to try. If he wants to dress the cables up, he can lay the two legs of interconnect on either side of a wide piece of tape. My preference is the 4" wide blue paper masking tape found at Home Depot. Spaced 4" apart the legs should not see much of each other so the capacitance and inductance should be minimal compare to parallel runs or twisted pairs where the legs are much closer together or in intimate contact with one another. If you follow my instructions on the $100 cable thread, the interconencts only use a single wire per channel to the hot connection of all source and destination pieces. If you've grounded the system properly as I decribed in the thread, chassis to chassis, you only need one wire to make signal flow. The convention of two conductor cable is another of those things that I would say is a good idea for generic interconnects where the manufacturer doesn't know what equipment will be used and whether the connection will require both signal and ground at both ends of the RCA connection. As an example, look at the jumpers from pre amp out to main amp in on many receivers or integrated amplifiers. It is only the hot connection being made. There is no need for a ground connection to the RCA jack since the ground is common internally to all jacks on the back of the amplifier. If you try this cable, please, make certain your equipment has a common ground for both channels and that all RCA's share this connection. Dual mono amplifiers without a common ground will blow up if you tie the two sides of the amplifier together. However, many "dual mono" designs still share a common ground and are dual mono in marketing terms only. As I stated in the linked thread, in most equipment the ground connection for all the RCA's is common. Ground one channel of each source's connectors and you'll have signal flow to all connectors. (If you can't find a chassis ground on your equipment, run one RCA to an unused input of your pre amp and make all ground connections to this one RCA plug. This type of grounding uses only the ground portion of the RCA and has no hot/signal leg connected.) Simply using the various RCA's for each input would have the capacity for various ground potentials at the source component. So, rather than creating the greater possibility of ground loops, ground each source from it's chassis (preferrably, or one RCA ground point if need be) to a star grounding point which, if it's available, would be the phono grounding lug of the pre amp. This is a solid electrical ground whereas the common ground from the thick paper type RCA strip used in many receivers and integrated amplifiers might not be at true chassis ground. If there's no phono ground lug, ground to an uninsulated chassis screw on the pre amp. I can see no reason why star grounding to the pre amp's chassis will not result in the quietest system connection where ground potential is concerned. Audible difference? Probably not but worthwhile, IMO. Phono connections will require a two conductor interconnect rather than the single used by CD players and the like. These cables are not meant to replace $2k worth of high quality cables in everyone's system. But, if the cables perform in your system as they do in Mike's and my systems, you should at least question just what you are paying for in higher priced cables other than generic operation and the ability to yank and pull on your cables constantly. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10738 Registered: May-04 | . SM - Go to RS and spend less that $5 for the magnet wire. It is solid core rather than stranded and has just about the simplest dielectric other than air. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10739 Registered: May-04 | . SM - Go to RS and spend less than $5 for the magnet wire. It is solid core rather than stranded and has just about the simplest dielectric other than air. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 541 Registered: Feb-05 | "Another technical tour de force, dorkboy"-Maybe I would be minutely insulted by that if I weren't laughing so hard, I mean really that sounds like something my neighbors 13 year-old daughter would call a schoolmate."more on that later". ????????! "But I have the right to decide what works in my own situation and I would appreciate not having some well intentioned soul with an education telling me I cannot be doing things correctly when I get the results I desire." You were probably selling home audio gear when I was in grade school so what possible advice could I offer you that would trump your vast experience? No, lets re-evaluate the situation, I offer advice to neophites perusing this forum who often have HTIB or cheap receivers and cheap speakers to avoid buying expensive cabling and wire for their system, which is not going to help their cause. Crap tied to crap with a silver thread is still crap. " Out of curiousity, please explain this, "Shielding is certainly a must in an interconnect cable that operates at much higher frequencies than a speaker wire ... " Am I understanding you correctly that interconnects pass signals at higher frequencies than speaker cables? At what point between interconnect and speaker cable are the higher audio frequencies lost? Wouldn't the loss of high frequencies within the audio bandwidth make an amplifier defective? Or, have I really, really missed something all these years? I don't know if you have missed something all these years but I do know that an RCA type signal is a lower level voltage signal than a speaker level signal but the bandwidth can be much higher well in RF. "But how much capacitance is too much? Like most other things in audio, everything becomes a trade off." I recently heard a quote of no more than 45pF per foot for speaker wire. Yes of course,as are many things in life as well. "I've never met or heard of another human who can hear skin-effect in a wire or current flow in a wire with a relative low voltage signal which can only be measured by sophisticated instruments ... " The skin effect is all about current flow in a wire,an anomaly thereof. Can you hear current flowing in a wire??? "Maybe you should get out more. I can't prove it exists at audio levels any more than anyone else can. It is not unreasonable to me that what is heard is what is actually happening. And if I can believe there is a reason for what I hear then that's a beginning point and that's where I'll start." This is circular reasoning, you can't prove it exists but want to circumvent some credible factual evidence that suggests it's not and somehow suggest that what you may be hearing is the result of the skin-effect when in actuality it's likely the result of increased L,or C. "If I have a virus and I take an herb, I think I would be remiss not to think there is a cause and effect if I feel better afterwards. If I hear a thick cable and I find it objectionable, then I have a right to think there might be a reason for that sound. I've never met anyone who can hear a squarewave but I respect amplifiers designed to reproduce them. If you feel otherwise about any of those things, that's your right also. But engineering is not static. If we hear it but we can't measure it, that has proven what? That we should have a good laugh? Edison is rolling. No I do appreciate square wave response in an amp,isn't this what most SS designers are after? Wait a minute,I thought we were talking about speaker wire and cables. Although a brillant man ahead of his time(Edison), he was ultimately wrong that's why Tesla and George Westinghouse prevailed. "In my experience with electronics,particulary when I was studying 3ph. AC distribution, It is true that you can actually hear the current flowing through very high voltage lines in certain situations as evident by the "buzzing" and "fizzy" sound." Again I'm at a loss. What's that mean? -my apology here,this is not really relevant. In certain situations you CAN actually hear current flowing in high voltage tubular wires. "Well, like I said at the top, no. You should want to send and deliver ever electron required to accurately recreate the original input signal. But to send every electron available would infer you want to blow your speaker up with every last bit of current available from your amplifier. I'm of the school that a bit more than required is sufficient if lots more leads to poor reproduction of the input and sending "every available electron to my speakers" is probably not going to sound good. I doubt you require 10A.W.G. to get adequate (and all available not to mention sufficient) current from your HK receiver to your speakers even on short term peaks. Yes? No? Would the fused power supply on my receiver,which places a limit on AC input current allow so much extra to blow up my speakers? I seriously have my doubts. Ok I admit 10AWG wire is probably overkill for a receiver based system, are you sufficiently placated now?? "OK, but take that parallel run off your speaker and attach it to the antenna posts on your tuner,what happens?" I'm not sure what we're discussing here. That a speaker cable cannot be a tuned resonator? That antenna theory doesn't apply to speaker cables? Please sir there is no need to insult my intelligence here. " am hardly an advocate of the "can't measure it, can be heard" school of audio design. Nor am I in favor of only treading along the lines of, "I hear it therefore it must exist, engineering be damned!" I believe in good engineering but I don't believe engineering is static. At one point no one ascribed a sound to capacitors since the math and engineering said there was no "sound" of capacitors and the measurements agreed." Just what is your position then Mr. Vigne as this sounds rather non-committal. In my book both the measurement and your ears count but the latter only comes into play once the sound has eminated from a speaker. You and I are from opposite sides of the fence. I am from the measurements camp and you are from the subjectivists, it's OK this forum needs both our types in order to be balanced. |
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Bronze Member Username: Josh784Seattle, WA Post Number: 82 Registered: Mar-07 | Jan: "My dear, if you are driving your speakers with DC, you won't have long to listen for the effects of inductance. Read their notes and the problem of inductance in a cable is miminal." I'm really hoping, after everything you've written in this thread so far, that you are aware of the fact that direct current is exactly what you are driving your speakers with. I must have read your post incorrectly? As far as sonic signatures go, shouldn't a cable carry the least signature possible? Otherwise, isn't something else in the system doing something wrong? I suppose you could argue that certain cables/interconnects correct imbalances in the system, but that doesn't really fit with high end cable company's claims that their cables are very accurate. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7743 Registered: Dec-04 | ER, I am certain that 'dorkboy' is JV's pet name for Jones, not you at all. So far as reading like an engineer, that is correct, as are you in stating that you will take the side of trained professional, no harm there. JV has trained as a novice engineer as well(lots of tech) but will side towards the musicality of the bits and pieces as well. This is all aside from the music itself. Please bear in mind that JV uses 15ohm speakers and tubes.So Vigne's comments often come from the music, while commenting on the musicality of a wire or cap is different. Both of which I am still learning about, and your posts I read first when you drop by. Thanks for contributing, ER. Josh, I hope my de-coupled, SCR outputs are inhibiting the DC to my speakers. I really really need to know how the DC is working with your kit, and how your amplification handles the oscillation. |
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Bronze Member Username: Josh784Seattle, WA Post Number: 83 Registered: Mar-07 | I must be missing something because I was under the impression that the power supply in your amplifier was converting AC to DC, which is the current that is passed on to the speakers. Why is there a positive and negative terminal on speaker posts if the current is not DC? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10744 Registered: May-04 | . "Why is there a positive and negative terminal on speaker posts if the current is not DC?" Well, sir, how do you think alternating current works? Or, more appropriately, how do you think direct current works? Very simply, the incoming AC from the wall outlet arrives at the power supply of your amplifier where it is rectified and passed on to the internal circuitry of the amplifier to use as DC. The amplifier, or CD player or what have you, does operate internally on DC voltage. The output devices, driven by this DC voltage, then send out pulses of AC voltage and current to the AC driven motors of the speakers. If DC passes through to the speakers in any large quantity, the motors will freeze and that will be the end of the speaker. Most solid state gear today is termed direct couple meaning there are no intervening transformers or capacitors to remove DC voltage from the outputs should it leak through - what is called DC offset which most CD players, DVD players, and other source equipment pass in small amounts. This can be a bit of a problem should excessive DC be present at the speaker terminals and most amplifier specs will indicate a frequency response of no lower than 1Hz in an attempt to minimze the effects of DC leakage while extending the amplifier's response to its broadest points. Since I use transformer coupled tube amplifiers, the DC component of my amplifiers remains inside the amp, where it belongs. Output transformers will not pass DC. So, how would you suppose my speakers would operate on DC if none can be delivered to their input terminals? "As far as sonic signatures go, shouldn't a cable carry the least signature possible? Otherwise, isn't something else in the system doing something wrong?" Nothing else in the system is strictly responsible for the performance of the cables; so I doubt you could blame, say, the amplifier for doing something wrong should the cables have a sonic signature. "I suppose you could argue that certain cables/interconnects correct imbalances in the system, but that doesn't really fit with high end cable company's claims that their cables are very accurate." I was unaware that all high end cable companies claimed their products were "accurate". If they do, that would be a hard calim to support since the cable will interact with the system it's placed within and accuracy of the unknown circuit it creates would be dicey at best. Fortunately(?), I don't think most cable companies claim accuracy. They claim good sound which isn't necessarily always the most accurate sound; actually, most often, a bit away from accurate would be more pleasant. In fact many - particularly those in the good cable is good cable camp - have described the majority of expensive, high end cables as nothing more than expensive, rather unsophisticated tone controls. However, the direction the thread has taken here is to suggest that all cables have some sort of "sonic signature". And, if cables have a sound of any sorts, how do you create a cable for a broad market that will have "the least signature possible". Any thoughts on that subject? . |
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Bronze Member Username: Josh784Seattle, WA Post Number: 84 Registered: Mar-07 | Thanks for the explanation, I have always been of the impression that speakers were driven by DC...now I know better. Would the most simple cable possible provide the smallest sonic signature? Something that was a simple copper braided cable with basic insulation, and no special twisting, time correction, etc. Or would it be a solid copper cable? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10745 Registered: May-04 | . ER - Yes, jones is dorkboy, though, if the forum allowed it, he now would be called "Jan's b!tch". Dorkboy is also dale wiley and probably other vile names and lots of other things the forum won't even allow me to hint at. " ... that sounds like something my neighbors 13 year-old daughter would call a schoolmate." There was no offense meant to you. I was, however, trying to raise the intellectual level at which dorkboy operates. If I made it to 13, I succeeded. I don't mean to get in a war of words with you, ER, but ... "I offer advice to neophites perusing this forum who often have HTIB or cheap receivers and cheap speakers to avoid buying expensive cabling and wire for their system, which is not going to help their cause." Do you feel it's good advice to suggest 10 A.W.G. to the owner of a HTIB? You stated the only time you heard a "difference" in speaker cables was when you swapped out to 10 A.W.G. cables. If this is "overkill" for a high current HK receiver, wouldn't it be a bit ludicrous for the owner of a HTIB or a $159 receiver? So who was the advice meant to assist? " ... I do know that an RCA type signal is a lower level voltage signal than a speaker level signal but the bandwidth can be much higher well in RF." Wait a minute! "I thought we were talking about speaker wire and cables." Ah, C.Y.A.'ing a bit here, ER? I didn't know we'd switched the discussion to video cables and such. I thought we were using interconnect here as an audio only cable. If we're discussing the very highest frequencies a cable can carry, then shouldn't we be considering the consequences of "skin effect"? "I recently heard a quote of no more than 45pF per foot for speaker wire." "Some designs boast shielding to reject RFI and EMI but at the expense of increased capacitance and rolled-off high frequencies, no thank you." I think if you'll look, Kimber Cable falls below 45pF of capacitance per foot. That would be substantial amounts of capacitance and unlikely, I hope, to be found in a cable sold to receiver owners. What sort of cable would have such measurements? But, even at that, the figure seems rather arbitrary. And assuming the amplifier is safe, I would still say roll those highs in a cheap receiver/cheap speaker combo. Capacitance in the speaker cable is probably not what will destroy most cheap receivers. "The skin effect is all about current flow in a wire,an anomaly thereof. Can you hear current flowing in a wire??? " Ah, you said you could. Remember? Buzzzzzzzz. But, even still, I remember "voltage is the potential for work" and "current is the work being done" as the basic description I learned back when we wrote on stone tablets. Maybe things have changed with the new way of thinking today. Therefore, if I hear the results of the work being done by current, am I not in effect "hearing" current? If I ride in a car pulling out from a stop sign, am I not feeling the torque of the motor? Same thing. "This is circular reasoning, you can't prove it exists but want to circumvent some credible factual evidence that suggests it's not and somehow suggest that what you may be hearing is the result of the skin-effect when in actuality it's likely the result of increased L,or C." ER, what part of, "I can't prove it exists at audio levels any more than anyone else can", do you not understand? I hear something disagreeable to my ears with thick cables. Whether that is L, C or R or some other mysterious item, I have no way to prove any of the above. That really isn't my job. My task is to question all the possibilities and come to a conclusion which is most feasable. Skin effect at audio frequencies seems feasable to me. But, I think you're as guilty of "circular logic" here as anything I've posted on the topic. Remember, I did not make the claim for skin effect, I merely stated it is a place for me to reason from. I do not see engineering as static. You apparently do. "No I do appreciate square wave response in an amp,isn't this what most SS designers are after? Wait a minute,I thought we were talking about speaker wire and cables. Although a brillant man ahead of his time(Edison), he was ultimately wrong that's why Tesla and George Westinghouse prevailed." I don't see a problem with introducing the idea of designing for squarewave response to be out of place in my logic. Sorry you do. No, I don't think most mass market receiver designers aim for squarewave performance. Do you? As to Edison loosing out to Tesla and Westinghouse, it somewhat proves engineering ideas (and the math that supports them) can change, doesn't it? "Would the fused power supply on my receiver,which places a limit on AC input current allow so much extra to blow up my speakers? I seriously have my doubts. Ok I admit 10AWG wire is probably overkill for a receiver based system, are you sufficiently placated now??" Not quite. How large are the rail fuses in your receiver? 3 amp? But you "believe' 10 A.W.G. cable will allow all the available electrons through. I have to admit, that it will! But wouldn't a cable that was rated at no more than 3.5 amps still allow all the available electrons to reach from point A to point B? Exactly how much amperage is 10 A.W.G. capable of carrying for a short burst at the voltages your receiver can produce? Yet you heard an improvement when you switched to the 10 A.W.G. cable. Why? How? You like to claim engineering "facts" as the basis for your decisions. What engineering fact suggests the use of cable rated far above the maximum current capacity of your amplifier will make a difference, let alone an improvement, in sound quality with your present speakers? Is it possible you are buying into the snake oil that is thick cables? I can think of no logical reason why 10 A.W.G. cable should make an audible difference in your system over no more than 18 A.W.G. Can you help me out here? Surely the output impedance of your amplifier is low enough that the swap to 10 A.W.G. over the cable length your require did not dramatically effect its value. So what would account for the "difference"? "Just what is your position then Mr. Vigne as this sounds rather non-committal." Non-committal? Hardly. I thought I'd spelled it out for you. I do not see engineering as static. I am for good sound resulting from good engineering and I see nothing in the electrical theory and application I know that would suggest 10 A.W.G. cable is better than much higher (thinner) guage cable in your application. But I'm willing to learn. Further committment? I believe I should question what I hear, why I hear it as such and read and seek to formulate an answer that suits me. Right or wrong, I'll hopefully find out if it's wrong if I read and think long and hard enough. If I can't find that it's right, then I have more reading and more thinking to do. I realize engineering is not static. I'm not an engineer nor even a technician. In some ways that leaves me free to think about things that others accept as doctrine. I do believe good sound follows solid, factual engineering but not necessarily the other way around. When the sound leads the engineering, then the engineering must catch up. I've been tweaking around with my turntable lately. I've been studying and reading and thinking about the enginering that has gone into the very best tables available today and how that engineering is significantly different from the engineering of a top flight turntable of two decades ago. For the most part, the designers of the better tables today have taken a leap off the engineering train of yesterday to achieve results that no one believed posible or even conceivable a few years back. They questioned the convention and improved the species. That is how I see audio engineering working. Not just sitting there and saying, "The math says this can't work." My hat is off to those designers, engineers or not, who questioned why something can't happen and then go about making it reality. Committal enough for you? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10746 Registered: May-04 | . "Or would it be a solid copper cable?" Read what Mike and I are using and find very acceptable. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7747 Registered: Dec-04 | Geez, I am tired just reading it. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7748 Registered: Dec-04 | How rudddy fast can you type, Vigne?! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 485 Registered: May-06 | Nuck, Too bad Jan clarified a couple of points on my cables as I was getting ready to tell you that if my RCAs are "nasty" then I guess I like my music and women the same way. But since Jan clarified it all I won't convey that too you. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7751 Registered: Dec-04 | Super, Mike. I will take that for now. Just for now. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 542 Registered: Feb-05 | ER - Yes, jones is dorkboy, though, if the forum allowed it, he now would be called "Jan's b!tch". Dorkboy is also dale wiley and probably other vile names and lots of other things the forum won't even allow me to hint at. OK There was no offense meant to you. I was, however, trying to raise the intellectual level at which dorkboy operates. If I made it to 13, I succeeded OK- Yea in a big way LOL!! I don't mean to get in a war of words with you, ER, but Yep ditto. This is giving me a headache. "I offer advice to neophites perusing this forum who often have HTIB or cheap receivers and cheap speakers to avoid buying expensive cabling and wire for their system, which is not going to help their cause." Should read "neophytes" But I would like to think I usually do a decent job of editing. Do you feel it's good advice to suggest 10 A.W.G. to the owner of a HTIB? You stated the only time you heard a "difference" in speaker cables was when you swapped out to 10 A.W.G. cables. If this is "overkill" for a high current HK receiver, wouldn't it be a bit ludicrous for the owner of a HTIB or a $159 receiver? So who was the advice meant to assist? The link I provided was merely a statement of what I use sometimes. That does not mean the emperor orders you comply. In reality I have a few hundred feet of 16,12 and 10AWG and do switch out premade lengths ocasionally,yes I am one of those rare beings who's not "set it and forget it" with home audio gear. The only difference I felt I'd every heard was when I went from 16 to 10AWG for the first time. I'm gonna put my foot in my mouth and be subjective but I felt " bass seemed deeper and everything seemed quieter and more clearer" Most $159 HTIB would probably have spring loaded clips that even if they could accomodate 10 gauge wire would probably have difficulty holding it reliably- so no - I wouldn't suggest that 14 up front and 16 rear should be fine. Wait a minute! "I thought we were talking about speaker wire and cables." Ah, C.Y.A.'ing a bit here, ER? I didn't know we'd switched the discussion to video cables and such. I thought we were using interconnect here as an audio only cable. If we're discussing the very highest frequencies a cable can carry, then shouldn't we be considering the consequences of "skin effect"? Sure if I could find clear proof that it's applicable at audio frequencies and ignore some reasonable proof out there that it's not. Don't villianize me yet though your unshielded interconnect method sounds interesting, and willing to try something like that but I definatetly would not suggest removing the insulation on a speaker wire(I'm sure you know this) as that would be a potential fire hazzard and greatly increase the rate of oxidation. No, I don't think most mass market receiver designers aim for squarewave performance. Do you? Nope probably not, and only about four makers of any type of receiver are even worth listening to IMO. Perhaps these designers try to pursue good square wave response more. I recently heard a quote of no more than 45pF per foot for speaker wire." Sorry. that is actually a very liberal estimate about half that would be acceptable. 45pF would be the point at which it is likely to cause problems. As such most cheap <$1 zipcord as well as better quality wire, which I can afford and am willing to try,$4-10/ft usually fall into the late teens in C per foot and are indistinguishable in that respect. As to Edison loosing out to Tesla and Westinghouse, it somewhat proves engineering ideas (and the math that supports them) can change, doesn't it? Yes the first wheel was square. "Engineering is not static" Sure how do you think we all, at least those of us who are blessed enough to afford them have all these wonderfull toys? Don't get my wrong I'm a r&d man all day, the company I work for has been able to pervail in an increasingly tough market because of it's rigirous r&d program. I'm not so closed minded as you seem to think I am, yes you always have to think outside the box. But at the same time if I decide to fork out 4 grand for a set of Audioquest Kilamanjaros or Pear cabling, am I unresonable to demand some tangible proof how this would be rewarding as opposed to buying an amplifier that costs the same amount? It's hard to accept this type of pricing with only pseudo science and half-non applicable thruths supporting it and rather shocking since the machines in China that make it were differently tooled a week earlier producing my .65cent/ft zipcord. Ok I understand your stance now and I think you know mine so I want to wave the little white flag,offer an olive branch and smoke a peace pipe, whatever it takes. happy listening ER |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10747 Registered: May-04 | . Not to get the last word, but ... The magnet wire does have an insulating covering, it just happens to be unlike what most interconnect and speaker cable manufacturers sell. The magnet wire as speaker cable is, if I understand and remember correctly, the same thing for all intents and purposes as the "anti-Speaker Cable" stuff that some guy on the internet is selling for $85 per 8-10' pair. I'm not certain what guage he sells (rather heavy I think - there you go, group think again) but this is a guy who should be arrested for defrauding the public. Not for the product but for the price. I've always said things are worth whatever someone is willing to pay but this is ridiculous! I'd honestly rather have some engineering in an expensive cable than be taken to the cleaners by this sort of rot. We all have our "facts". If you spent $4k for cables, I suspect you would find facts that support your intentions. Not just voodoo facts but something to hold onto. Read the claims for the upper end cables, they are not all smoke and mirrors and dead chickens. However, I think most people buying $4k cables do so for some other reason that you and I can't understand. I fall back to my story of the Dallas area Wilson dealer who says their clients buy the $45k(?) Wilson Maxx speaker as a piece of art more than as a way to hear good music. We all have our facts. Removing the shield from the ic does lower your dreaded capacitance to minimal levels even in a two conductor cable. Just space the conductor legs as far apart as physically possible within the confines of your system or use the single conductor method described above and give a listen. Do use the RS solderless RCA's. A screw type connection will sound better than a soldered connection where at least 96% of the connecting material is tin and lead. The RS RCA's will not allow for a gas tight connection but at the cost you can make up new cables once a year during spring cleaning and still save cash over buying the products from Monster and the like. I'm convinced the minimal materials of the RS RCA's has a positive effect on the sound quality and that most RCA's included on high end cables are more for the feel good effect than for good sound. . |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 291 Registered: Jan-07 | Eric, forget it. You are arguing with an idiot. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10754 Registered: May-04 | . dorkboy - Didn't I tell you to stay in your box? Now go ahead and shut the lid. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 507 Registered: May-06 | OK, one last (yeah right) tweak. Made new speaker wire with 5" wide packing tape (3 rows of regular tape overlapped), 26 AWG Magnet wire from Radio Shack twisted with .999 pure silver 28 AWG, 8' 6". Re-did my interconnects pulling out the 30 AWG Radio Shack Magnet wire off of the positive RCA Connector and replaced with .999 pure silver 28 AWG, still using same RS RCA connector and the 30 AWG Magnet wire on the negative RCA Connector. This has provided me more extension on my upper frequencies, sense of more space, moved the sound stage wider and closer, and refined the details. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 317 Registered: Dec-06 | Screw it, Mike. Stop listening to the band. JOIN the band, dude. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7871 Registered: Dec-04 | Nuck the Roadie and stand in vocalist/drummer. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7872 Registered: Dec-04 | When Mike is having a Joe Strummer moment. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7873 Registered: Dec-04 | I know the Clash is running through your head now. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7874 Registered: Dec-04 | Cheers, lads! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 508 Registered: May-06 | Nuck, the drum kit is all yours dude. I've got some Blues in my head that I need to get into the "Lucille" with. Maybe we can get Jan to lead and that leaves us needing a bass player. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10783 Registered: May-04 | . If ya ain't leading, the view never changes. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1411 Registered: Nov-05 | Back to topic (sort of) - I won a bid on Ebay for 2x3 metre lengths of Vandenhul VDH CS122 Hybrid Quad Biwire Speaker Cable which were (professionally) terminated with banana plugs by the importer. They are (supposedly) a year old and my bid was a little less than half the cost price. I figure if they don't add more musicallity to the system I will simply relist them and stay with my cheaper Aussie made Kordz biwire - which I find is okay, but I had a comment that my previous Monster 10 awg was slightly better, though I thought the Kordz was a tad more preferrable. This is my introduction to a somewhat higher end speaker cable so I shall see - er hear - if or what any difference there will be to my music. If not, at least I gave it a try. There is no one local who has any (higher end) cable besides the lower end Kimber which I have tried but found it is a bit of a hassle to handle. For anyone interested, I will post my thoughts on this cable once I have received it and played a fair selection of music. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 510 Registered: Jan-05 | What's that coming over the hill Is it a monster? Is it a monster? |
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New member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-07 | Monster has decent quality. It's just grossly overpriced. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1416 Registered: Nov-05 | The Van den Hul CS122 Hybrid Quad Biwire (Teatrack Hybrid) speaker cables arrived promptly and they look brand new. The banana plugs appear to be fitted very professionally, seem absolutely airtight and make a good solid connection to the terminals on both ends. I have no intention of cutting these off to make bare-wire contacts as I don't see (or believe I hear) any real value in doing so - not that I disbelieve the theory. Anyway, there is a slight musical improvement, the highs are more detailed but not with more shimmer, the sound is a little more airy and the bass seems to dig a little deeper. I noticed this difference immediately with the first audition - "Crazy Baldheads" from Monty Alexander's Concrete Jungle - and everything I played thereafter. So, was the cost worth it? Probably not to some, but I think it's another rung in the ladder to that elusive perfect music reproduction. For audible and improved differences, these cables, while still slight mind you, have been more noticeable than any of the others I've tried. Second hand is the way to go - at least here where everything to do with audio quality is so expensive. FTI http://www.vandenhul.com/cable/ttrck-h.htm  |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7911 Registered: Dec-04 | Excellent MR! How long are those? The improvements you stated are the most that I have picked up with speaker runs as well, and I have been happy with them. I am sure you will be as well. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1417 Registered: Nov-05 | Nuck, they are 3 metre runs which I thought I was already using but it turns out (as I now remember) that I was using 3.5 mtrs to compensate running up the shelf to the power amp However, 3 mts just suffices without having the cable supended in the air. The speakers are around 3.5 mtrs apart. I have been hearing musical improvements in almost everything I have been playing. Chris Rea's 'Road to Hell' especially has never sounded so fine. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2258 Registered: Sep-04 | Jan, I had a look at the Pomona site for their banana terminations. I recognized them immediately and I am not surprised you have a poor impression of banana plugs! I use (similarly cheap) RS Components bananas for best results and these remain crimp and solder plugs. I know several manufacturers who use the same exact plugs because they do sound the best in their opinion. What's good for Chord Co and VDH is good enough for me. ER, on the subject of speaker wire shielding, the only difference between Chord Odyssey and Chord EPIC Twin apart from price is that EPIC Twin is shielded. In direct comparisons, there is a sizeable difference in performance between the two cables, most notably in terms of noise floor. I shouldn't discount the effect of shielding speaker wires if I were you. Regards, Frank. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10813 Registered: May-04 | . "I had a look at the Pomona site for their banana terminations. I recognized them immediately and I am not surprised you have a poor impression of banana plugs!" Sorry, Frank, you mean you can tell how a banana plug sounds by looking at a picture of it? Yowsers! I never said I had a bad impression of banana plugs in general. I said bananas were designed to be a temporary connection, which they were. That they have been adopted by the British HiFi companies as the connector of choice amazes me, particularly since the government had to pass a regulation that said the plugs had to be spaced differently than the two pin AC outlets you guys use. (Too many people thinking that the amp's signal was transmitted through the AC lines. Kablowie!) None the less, I used a pair of the original Monster Exterminators with my 3/5a's for decades. Crappy connection even from a locking banana plug, great speaker. . |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2264 Registered: Sep-04 | Jan, No, I recognized them - i.e. I've used them before and they are fairly scrappy. I appreciate what you're saying about the legislation. Fact is, the amp manufacturers have to have different spacing or supply different connections but no standard was specified, so the most common alternative has become the BFA plug which is arguably worse than the banana. Of course, in true HiFi tradition, this isn't universal and 4mm bananas remain the de facto standard (you just have to pull out the plastic lugs in the amp to use them). Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: WingmanaliveA pic is worth 1000 posts!! Post Number: 8612 Registered: Jun-06 | This debate is a heated one in car audio as well. Not comparing the two but just a common contraversy. For raw wire and a couple options above that I've used knuconceptz wire and found it adequate in home and auto use. Good price as well. Just throwing it out there. http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=Speaker%20Wire |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 543 Registered: Feb-05 | Just when I thought this thread was going to die.... Frank I won't discount your experience but unless they are used in close proximity to strong magnetic fields there is little justification for shielding a speaker wire.Shielding in the AC power distribution industry has been around for a long time as these are VERY strong magnetic fields around distribution lines and to control hysteresis losses.It is likely the difference you hear is due to a change of RLC parameters. Audible differences in cable if not attributed to listener bias should likely be measureable. The rationale behind implementing an overly high measured C speaker wire which could fuction as a filter or tone control to "roll the highs" in a system simply escapes me since at just 35 years of age a mans hearing is already down some 11dBl at 8KHz! Why would anyone want to curtail the freq. response of their system in this manner.I thought the principle behind good audio was to produce every sound and nuance possible in the full audio spectrum with the already given limitations of the system itself. At the least shielding a speaker wire should be an exercize done with great care since any contact between the shield and conductor will cause a short at the amplifier output terminals and fry your amp. Naturally, adding a shield to a wire will increase it's capacitance. It is well known and established that a speaker level signal is a much higher voltage signal than a line level signal. As such it is less prone since it is a significantly higher V signal, to uV level noise that could be more significant with line level signal cables which average 2V(analog RCA standard) or less.The impedence and frequency is simply too low to have any consequential effect as well as transmission line effects being very negligible as well. The key to a low noise floor in my viewpoint is: 1) The use of a high quality amplifier which has very low measured noise levels and very low ideally too low to be measured TIM distortion levels. 2) Avoidance and control of ground loops at all costs. 3) Very careful layout and planning of cable,wire,power cords to ensure that none are in too close a proximity to each other. 4) Power conditioning and regulation. These common sense steps will provide a far greater barrier between your system and external noise than any wire or interconnect ever will. It has been my experience in this world that very few things that measure good sound bad or perform poorly. "When you can measure something and express it in numbers then you know something about it."- Lord Kelvin |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2269 Registered: Sep-04 | Eric, I'm not an expert but my understanding was that the voltage across the speaker terminals remains relatively constant (2.83V +/- a few percent), and that it is current which fluctuates enormously (mA to 17amps or more). The line level signal is usually about 2V to 2.5V but is measured in milliamps. I have real problems believing that a 35 year old man's hearing is down 11db at 8khz! I'm 43 and nothing special but my hearing was declared as average when I had it tested - and I can still hear the 19khz TV signal. The strangest thing about the shielding in my view is that I would only expect it to work if it were earthed, and yet it works even when the shielding is not earthed at all. Weird. I have not tried earthing the braid. Regards, Frank. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10831 Registered: May-04 | . " ... at just 35 years of age a mans hearing is already down some 11dBl at 8KHz!" Personal experience, ER? Hardly a repeatable statistic. Everyone's ears age at their own rate. "The key to a low noise floor in my viewpoint is: 1) The use of a high quality amplifier which has very low measured noise levels and very low ideally too low to be measured TIM distortion levels." I don't know of any really good tests for TIM, maybe they're out there. But what does transient intermodulation distortion have to do with a low noise floor? "Noise" is a very subjective item. Vinyl roar is filtered out by most ears and the listener can hear beneath the noise floor of a constant signal we would typically call "noise". While analog simply does not measure as well as digital, most listeners can hear more low level detail from vinyl than from polycarbonate. Analog does not have dither or a least significant bit. We had a quote on the forum a while back that most of us liked; to paraphrase, "If it measures good and sounds good, it is good. If it measures good and sounds bad, you measured the wrong thing." . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10832 Registered: May-04 | . Frank - Voltage fluctuates as the signal modulates the power supply. Speakers only draw significant amounts of current when they have a low impedance and high phase angle. Many efficient speakers work quite well on high voltage, low current systems. Most tube amplifiers are not high current designs. Leave the shielding off your speaker cables. . |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 544 Registered: Feb-05 | Looks like Jan beat me to the punch but in a typical ss amplifier the V level for a typical speaker signal runs from approx. 2.8Vrms to as high as 30Vrms. 2.8Vrms is the threshold minimum established decades ago that,without getting too technical will allow a speaker operate properly. As Jan stated the voltage level swings as well as the current depending on amplitude and impedence. at just 35 years of age a mans hearing is already down some 11dBl at 8KHz!" Personal experience, ER? Hardly a repeatable statistic. Everyone's ears age at their own rate. Not exactly, as a man in my mid-late 30's I can hear high freq. content quite well. I do have ocassional tinnitus-too many heavy metal concerts during the 80's. That quote was from here where these two seem to think otherwise- http://www.roger-russell.com/wire.htm I don't know of any really good tests for TIM, maybe they're out there. But what does transient intermodulation distortion have to do with a low noise floor? There plenty of ways to assess distortion, if you keep it clean in the amplification the output will surely be clean as well, or at least it should. Noise" is a very subjective item. Vinyl roar is filtered out by most ears and the listener can hear beneath the noise floor of a constant signal we would typically call "noise". While analog simply does not measure as well as digital, most listeners can hear more low level detail from vinyl than from polycarbonate. Analog does not have dither or a least significant bit. Yes I still prefer an analog amplifier. Don't get me wrong I still appreciate vinyl as a friend has an outstanding collection, but how does it measure and perform against the best CD players out there?.. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7962 Registered: Dec-04 | If we have moved into 'noise floor' referring to gear and not cabling alone, I would be remiss not to mention the benefits of a fully balanced system from cd transport through amplifier. I havn't tried a TT into the balanced Classe yet, but the subsonic filter below 23Hz should enable a properly damped table to perform every bit as well as cd. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2274 Registered: Sep-04 | Thanks for the explanations guys. That's one area that has always confused me. That said, my experiences with the Odyssey vs EPIC cables remain and I know for a fact that the cables are exactly the same apart from the shielding. Roger Russell regularly gets trawled out on this forum but his whole method of running the tests, the connections he uses and the types of connections he uses are just awful - enough to negate the beneficial effects of good quality cable. It's a bit like using a comparator in the bad old days. In the end all you were listening to (and chose) was the system that sounded best through the comparator which was such a pile of junk that people either bought bright or bassy systems. There's no doubt in my mind that the vinyl medium cannot measure as well as CD for noise floor. That said, it's possible to pull more resolution out of a record since it is a continuous waveform. The limitations here are the resonant frequency of the cantilever/stylus assembly and its inertia. These limit the 'sampling rate' of the signal off the record, but theoretically there is an infinite amount of information on the record whereas a red book CD has a theoretical maximum of 74 mins (682MB). As to measurement and performance, I was talking to a tester in a highly regarded manufacturer's factory and he was saying that the measurement of their top two players (one twice the price of the other) was a bit of a problem since electronically they measured the same! Yet, the difference in performance (and implementation) between the two is huge. The problem here is the lack of adequate measuring. Regards, Frank. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10839 Registered: May-04 | . "I havn't tried a TT into the balanced Classe yet, but the subsonic filter below 23Hz should enable a properly damped table to perform every bit as well as cd." Whiskey Tango Foxtrot ?!!!!!!!!! You meant for me to spit coffee all over the monitor, didn't you? This thread will get way off topic if this is addressed, but, you can't mean that! By what logic did you come up with that, Nuck? "These limit the 'sampling rate' of the signal off the record, but theoretically there is an infinite amount of information on the record whereas a red book CD has a theoretical maximum of 74 mins (682MB)." Ditto on the "?!!!!!". . |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 545 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks for the explanations guys. That's one area that has always confused me. No problema Frank-now tell me about great hi-fi, I know the names but have heard just a little. That said, my experiences with the Odyssey vs EPIC cables remain and I know for a fact that the cables are exactly the same apart from the shielding. Again I wouldn't question that for a sec. Roger Russell does get his share of acolade on this forum, no doubt. Perhaps what fans of vinyl find objectionable is the conversion process of CD. It may sound clinical but it's noise and distortion measurements are much less than that of LP or cassette. And in the end they,vinyl and cd are both analog aren't they?.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow_and_flutter_measurement - This has to be taken into account also. As to measurement and performance, I was talking to a tester in a highly regarded manufacturer's factory and he was saying that the measurement of their top two players (one twice the price of the other) was a bit of a problem since electronically they measured the same! Yet, the difference in performance (and implementation) between the two is huge. The problem here is the lack of adequate measuring. I would almost bet that the upscale model has a better DAC and clock and perhaps a better ps,more isolation between digital and analog circuits. Ask him, I would be interested. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8001 Registered: Dec-04 | Eric, the Rega Apollo and Saturn are very much like that, perhaps thats the builder that Frank alluded to. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8003 Registered: Dec-04 | JV, which part was unclear about the way I hear things? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5096 Registered: Feb-05 | I almost bought those same speaker cables MR. I've had company in the house and not much time to see what's happening here. As you know I'm a believer in whatever vdH does...it works for me. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10856 Registered: May-04 | . "JV, which part was unclear about the way I hear things?" Well, if you mean, "I havn't tried a TT into the balanced Classe yet, but the subsonic filter below 23Hz should enable a properly damped table to perform every bit as well as cd", I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Why don't you start with "properly damped table". Then explain what a 23Hz "subsonic"(?) filter has to do with that. Then what balanced lines have to do with either. And, if you care to waste some space, "perform every bit as well as cd" could use some S'planation too, Lucy. As is your statement is a conflagration of words that have the meaning of, "I haven't had a drink yet today but I think if the house that isn't built doesn't fall off the cliff on the other side of town it will be as good as Izbekistan taking off." . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10857 Registered: May-04 | . I find it a bit odd that a highly regarded manufacturer would be concerned about specs if the "implementation" is obviously different. I wonder who this tester thinks the market for the upscale version would be. Surely not someone who buys on specs, they still have their Panasonic from 1999. Are these the brains we're giving our money to? . |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 348 Registered: Dec-06 | There's plenty of people out there with more money than brains, no? Tester has to justify his existence and EG would measure anything! Or is my drummer leading me in the wrong direction? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10862 Registered: May-04 | . You got a drummer?! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 551 Registered: May-06 | I thought we gave the drummer job to Nuck? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8019 Registered: Dec-04 | It should go to Marc, but I will pinch into her fit. Err.. fit in a pinch. So long as all you need is vocals. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1429 Registered: Nov-05 | ....As you know I'm a believer in whatever vdH does...it works for me. Art, it was your rec among others that gave me reason to try them. Thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 555 Registered: May-06 | Three page up back to Eric. Enjoyed your post. I too have given this thought but have a slightly different take on it. I suspect it may be the harmonics that make vinyl more appealing to me. There is a lack of harmonic distortion in the lower layers in Digital (CD) but more consistent in analog (vinyl). I think I read somewhere where CDs have a prevalent 3rd order harmonic distortion then fall off from there. Vinyl has a presence of 5th through 7th order harmonic distortion, all at significantly lower levels than the 3rd order from a CD. My interpretation is that the 3rd order harmonic distortion of the CD may be a negative on some CDs that I hear where the vinyl harmonics serve more to filling out the sound on vinyl. Hey Wiley if you are out there this is just my opinion again so chill dude. I only have my ears and what I feel about what I hear for measurements. No laboratory tests sorry. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10883 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/interconnects/interconnects.html |
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