Is an int amp the way to go???
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 129 Registered: Feb-07 | Here is my mini dilemna. Presently I'm using hk3380 with paradigm mini's v5. Looking to take a step with either the nht'3 or era d4's either of which are not efficent enough for the hk. Since mainly I'm a music listener occation 2.0 stuff. Is it a good idea to simply use the hk as a pre and look at an external amp like nad 272 or rotel or a parasound haloA23 to power my second bookshelves??? Or would it be advisable look at getting a int amp like c372, M-FidelityA3.5 CA640 for example Which are availbe for me due to my locality. Since i'm wondering that would provide better power plus sound quality for those less efficient speakers?? Basically my reason for looking at a second pair of bookshelves is that even though the paradigms are nice and really efficient. They don't impress me(they are nice not wow!). They sound nice with certain types of music for their price but with other more refined pieces they are a bit lacking. I like the receiver due to its convience bang for buck. I need a tuner, the video outs are really handy. That leads me to another option getting a higher end reciever like Music Hall Mavern which should be a good for driving those speaker and if not allow my upgrade to a separate amp. I finally considering something like an arcam but well they have in amps no stereo receivers. A70 would make a nice pre amp but it wont drive either bookshelves. Just my mini's. But i was told the sound quality would excellent out of it. Anyway guys any suggustions?? or advice...... oppps sorry this is kinda long |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10545 Registered: May-04 | . You're looking to add a second pair of speakers to add to what you already own? But you're looking at less efficient speakers as the second set? What makes you think 80 watts from the HK is not enough to drive the less efficient speakers? What do you really think more power will accomplish and how much power will be required to achieve that end? Going to the 150 watt NAD will add virtually nothing in terms of volume potential. And the Arcam has less power than the HK. This sounds like either a day dream or a not very well thought out scheme. . |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 130 Registered: Feb-07 | Ouch thanks for the wakeup call??? I'll prob give my present speakers to my dad. Well what i should be asking is will 80wpc be able to power the nht's or era at louder volumes??? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10547 Registered: May-04 | . How loud? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10548 Registered: May-04 | . Provide some specs for the speakers you might consider. Something more than mere nominal impedance would help. I don't need to know whether they are two or three way or the size of anything. But I need to know the current draw they might require which is a combination of lowest impedance point at what frequency along with the electrical phase angle of the speaker system. Please don't assume I know every speaker out there. The greater the amount of information I have to work with, the better my answer will be. You should know these same specs before you pair an amplifier and speakers together. |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 133 Registered: Feb-07 | Jan what you are talking is a little over my head. That explains my ignorance. I was trying to find some specs. But the speaker I had in mind was the Era D4 or D5, and the NHT classic 3. http://www.nhthifi.com/2006/products/s/three.html Here are the specs System Type Bookshelf speaker Configuration 3-way acoustic suspension design Driver Complement 6.5" aluminum cone woofers, 2" aluminum dome midrange, 0.75"/19mm aluminum dome tweeter Frequency Response 45hz -- 20K Crossover Frequency 800 Hz, 3.2kHz Crossover Slopes 12 dB LP, 12dB HP, 18dB LP, 18 dB HP Sensitivity 87dB (2.83v@1m) Impedance 8 ohms nominal Inputs 2 each professional grade, nickel plated 5-way binding posts Speaker Dimensions 13.75 x 7.5 x 10.375 (H x W x D) Weight 20 lbs./9.1 kg each. Finish High Gloss Black, Special Dark. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10552 Registered: May-04 | . Usually you will have to read a good review of the speakers to find the phase angle of the speaker or even, for that matter, the real sensitivity of the system. But these are the numbers that count the most when considering whether an amplifier and a speaker will mate well electrically. Low impedance values and high phase angles signal a speaker that is very difficult to drive and will require large amounts of current to handle. If you ignore these specs, you can easily find yourself with less quality than you thought you paid for. I would suggest a call or email to the manufacturer asking for more complete measurements on these speakers. The manufacturer knows what the values are but chooses not to print them for some arcane reason. Ask about current (amperage) requirements for the speakers you are considering. If the answer comes back that the speakers require anything more than a moderate amount of current, look elsewhere. Possibly the dealer knows these values but all too often they either don't or will shine you on to make the sale. The HK you presently own is a reasonably high current amplifier (one of the best in its price range) but once you say you want the music loud, this says you want to operate the system at its limits. Midpriced receivers and difficult speakers are not the way to get good sound at high volumes no matter what your budget allows. However, ... Whenever anyone begins their search for new components with "loud" as a requirement, I strongly suggest you stay away from speakers with less than a 91dB sensitivity spec, the higher the better when it comes to volume output. You get volume from your speakers and finding the highest efficiency speaker will get you far more volume per watt than any amount of power you can afford or the speakers will tolerate. Since doubling the wattage allows only three dB more volume than the previous amplifier could muster (if all things are equal between the amps, and they never are), the difference between your 87dB speaker and the theoretical 91dB speaker would be the difference between taking your 80 watt HK and substituting a high quality 200 watt amplifier. The problem here becomes the power handling capacity of the speaker. Ignore the power handling specs provided by the manufacturer, they mean nothing. You aren't going to be using the speaker the way the manufacturer intended if loud is your criteria. You will eventually blow up the speaker trying to get something it can't produce. If you want loud, buy highly efficient speakers. Then make certain they have the same electrical properties as described above. You want a simple 8 Ohm nominal impedance with a low point of not less than 6 Ohms. The phase angle needs to be minimal, typically less than 25 °. Do not buy 4 Ohm speakers. . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 682 Registered: Apr-06 | Of note: The NHT Classic 3 does have measurements at Stereophile. And no, its not a speaker I would select for loudness. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10554 Registered: May-04 | . Let's take a look; http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/1106nht/index3.html "Sidebar 3: Measurements The NHT Classic Three's voltage sensitivity was significantly lower both than average and than specified, at an estimated 83dB(B)/2.83V/m. However, its impedance was generally higher, dropping below 6 ohms only in the lower midrange and above the audioband (fig.1). The minimum value was 4 ohms between 120Hz and 170Hz, but there is also a combination of 5.5 ohms and --46° electrical phase angle at 94Hz that will demand a goodly amount of current from the partnering amplifier." OK, this is a speaker with an impedance dip down to 4 Ohms, not a good sign for playing all that loud with any mid priced amplifier let alone a receiver. The phase angle of -46° occurs at a frequency where there will be plenty of energy in most contemporary music. Asking any amplifier to play loudly into this load will demand tremendous amounts of current from the amplifier along with large voltage swings. As good as the HK is in its price range, it would be in over its head here - as would any receiver or integrated amplifier under several thousand dollars in price. You would need a very good quality separate power amplifier to drive these speakers well. However, the killer is the 83dB sensitivity. I don't know what the sensitivity of your current speaker is in reality (what the manufacturer states is not always the real world number). But if we return to that hypothetical 87dB speaker, going down to 83dB speakers will give the impression your 80 watt HK is now only producing about 30 watts. And that would be 30 hard fought watts considering the current required to adequately drive these speakers. This is definitely not a speaker that will play loud. There are speakers that will play very loud with only 30 watts maximum wattage. The additional 50 watts your receiver can muster would be gravy on the taters. I suggest you find a speaker that is more likely to deliver the volume you desire with the amplifier you can afford. . |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 137 Registered: Feb-07 | Here the link to the era review on sterophile http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/107era/index2.html http://www.signalpathint.com/images/stories/pdf/D4_HT_review.pdf on page 2 of this pdf Jan I must say its is a crime that one guy has so much knowledge??? Do you lecture at a University or something?? When it comes to all this stuff its like a new science for me. Likely i'd prob blow or burn something up!!! In essence I think I grasp what you are saying. Point taken. When I say play loud, I listen to varying genre's of music jazz, classic, alternative, folk, reggae, zouk, salsa. The later ones in particular have little more lower extention well I should saw bass link rythym in them. I live in a apartment so I don't play my music at insane levels, but basically to fill my living room/dining area. I enjoy feeling immersed in my music. But not blarring loud. I like to hear defination, clarity isolating intruments. Which I cant really do with my existing setup. Its an improvement of my wife's mini system which i gave away lol. and and improvement of the polks klipsches oh bose ( shame to much that name got them at barter) Loud might be a bit of an exaggeration. I'm not technical like you guys to measure at what volumes (spl is that what they call it??) I definately am wondering about if simply grading my amplifcation will bring better result with my existing speakers. So I can play these loud. Then I can save up for a more refined moderate setup with those speakers I waslooking at??? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7537 Registered: Dec-04 | However... I have 4 ohm speakers(down to 3.2) and my old H/K receiver avr65 would drive them all day and night at SPL's higher than you mention, Chico. The distortion came in about your highest apartment level listening, I think. The same speaks with the Classe ca200 amp, however, are fine to whatever level you want(run and hide). The H/K is solid value for the buck, at least as far as I go back with receivers. The problem with high effiency speaks is the SQ. Klipch make very loud speakers, at varying levels of price and performance. They all play loud for cheap. So do Cerwin Vega's. A La Scala from Klipch can be made to sound very good, but in the wrong space, they can be dreadful.Did I mention the size of them? Your speaker selection is valid, bare in mind what Jan suggested. The highest eff. speaks sound poor to me, but remember, I have power to spare. Did that help? |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 138 Registered: Feb-07 | I've own klipsch before they were ok. But not as refined as like. i guess that has to due with the point you are making about highly efficent speakers. La scala those things are like mammamoth speakers!!! I would have to move out my furniture find space for them. Personally I could prob sit on them lol but they dont look that nice as teak furniture. hmmm but the thought is tempting  I'm quite will to part with my hk and no doubt adjust my listening levels. But the trick is finding a amp to match with those 2 speakers i have my eye on any suggustions. Since i'm not really up to par with correctly pairing amp with speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 140 Registered: Feb-07 | So with the era and the nht what suggustions would you guys give for amplication?? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10588 Registered: May-04 | . Chico, Chico, Chico! The NHT's are 83dB efficiency! What's happened to the "loud" part of all your previous requests? Have you suddenly decided you can live with "quiet"? There isn't enough power you can buy that will make the NHT's play loud and clean without damaging the speakers. . |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 143 Registered: Feb-07 | My thoughts exactly I will consider playing these at moderate levels. Since quality sound matter more than quality in this case. I'll prob keep my existing effiecient speakers or look at a pair somewhat less efficient. Right now i'm looking for a solid int amp to pair with the the nht's or the eras. Not for loud sessions of music but for enjoyment. Actually I was listening to you Jan |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 147 Registered: Feb-07 | Have any of you guys heard of this cite or dealt with them before???? http://www.hifitrader.com |
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