Speakers for Outlaw Audio RR2150 stereo receiver

 

New member
Username: Aghymike

Rancho palos verdes, Ca United States

Post Number: 1
Registered: May-07
Hello,
It is my first time posting on this forum and I'm looking for some advice on speakers. I'll try to explain as much as I can in this long post.

A friend asked me to put together a stereo set up for a new boutique clothing store in Los Angeles.

The store is approximately 25ft by 40ft.

His total budget for the receiver, 2 speakers and a CD changer is about $2,000.

If your familiar with LA clothing boutiques, some play music relatively loudly. He wants a setup that can handle loud bass heavy rap as well as soft electronic/ambient music.

Even though it is just a clothing store, it has small bar. And he really wants to be able to play music loudly and clearly when needed.

I decided on the Outlaw Audio RR2150 stereo receiver because it has received great reviews.

However, I am not sure what speaker setup to pair it up with.

First, they need to be wall mountable.

They are going to be about a foot above ear level so I hope to point them down slightly with a pivoting arm. I know this isn't ideal but thats where he wants them.

I decided against in-wall or in-ceilings because of the installation and "permanence" of them. Plus, I figured there are far more book shelf speakers to choose from.

The speakers would have to be white in color. The whole store is white wall to wall, so black or wood speakers would stand out.

Lastly, is a sub woofer necessary or would a good pair of speakers handle the bass?

On another note, I'm also looking for a CD/MP3 changer (5 discs or more) that would compliment the Outlaw receiver.

Feel free to make any and all suggestions, even on the receiver choice. Any help is truly appreciated.

Thank you for your time
-Michael
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7312
Registered: Dec-04
Micheal, for a room that size(and a store to boot!) you should advise an autoformer type distribution for 4, 6 or 8 speakers.
The performance of the Outlaw will not suffer at all.

Small, white speakers are another matter.
You might look at Orbaudio.com for some good sounding small speaks, albeit with 2 or 3 small subs placed around the place.

Did anybody think this out in advance?
You can do as well here with advise(chip in guys), and not spend the $$$ for a LA guy to plunk Bose in there.

For Gawd sakes, do not listen to Bose advise!
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7313
Registered: Dec-04
For music source, use the store pc, playing lossless files.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY USA

Post Number: 1025
Registered: Oct-04
White, non-commercial or in-wall style speakers are hard to come by. Consider something from NSM http://www.nsmaudio.com/brochures/5broc.html or Monitor Audio http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/range.php?range=4
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY USA

Post Number: 1026
Registered: Oct-04
What other receivers did you consider? Three other on my short list would be:

NAD C720BEE
Marantz SR4320
Harmon Kardon HK3480
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY USA

Post Number: 1027
Registered: Oct-04
Also, certain HT receivers feature MULTI CHANNEL STEREO modes (my Marantz SR5400 has this). This mode feeds the left channel signal to both left front and left surround speaker and the right channel signal to both right front and right surround speaker. Additionally, the center and/or rear channel reproduces a mix of the right and left channel (mono, cool!). This might be the most economical answer to using 4-6/pr. of speakers.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10437
Registered: May-04
.

"The store is approximately 25ft by 40ft.

His total budget for the receiver, 2 speakers and a CD changer is about $2,000."




So you're intending to blow $650 of the budget on a receiver? Because it got good reviews? Good reviews for what? Sitting in front of it and listening quietly in your living room? Or good reviews for driving speakers in a store?




Walk in some place and buy the HK. Go somewhere that offers an extended warranty where if it fails, you just walk back in and get handed a new product. You don't want, "Your receiver will be in service for about two to three weeks if parts are available", you want something that keeps the music playing. You buy the Outlaw and if it breaks, you ship it back to Outlaw, they fix it (with the understanding your music is down and you need music and they will proceed to put it in line behind any other product that came in before it) and they ship it back to you. Long wait!!! Not good!!!!! If you buy the Outlaw anyway, buy one of the HK's too, just so you'll have something in case the Outlaw does break.




"He wants a setup that can handle loud bass heavy rap as well as soft electronic/ambient music.

Even though it is just a clothing store, it has small bar. And he really wants to be able to play music loudly and clearly when needed."



If you want loud in one area, you are either going to have loud everywhere in a 25' X 40' space or you'll have loud nowhere in the store. If the store is an open layout, it will be loud everywhere. You need four speakers, on a switch box with volume controls for each set. Autoformers aren't need for four speakers (and I've never seen an autoformer based switch box for just two pair of speakers), just buy a switch box with a "protection" circuit with switches and volume controls rated well above the wattage of the amplifier.




"On another note, I'm also looking for a CD/MP3 changer (5 discs or more) ... "




Use a music server or even an iPod, a few thousand songs at your disposal should be enough; right?. No breakage or skipping. Nothing for the low wage staff to touch and no service departnment waits while a CD changer is in for repair. If MP3's are good enough, either device will be sufficient quality for a shop and probably better than any MP3 player you'll find.




"The speakers would have to be white in color. The whole store is white wall to wall, so black or wood speakers would stand out."




Good Lord, it's a clothing store! Limiting your choice of speakers to a certain color is ridiculous. Buy the speakers that work and either cover them with fabric, paint them or camouflage the boxes. Get someone with some imagination to decide what works best but buy speakers that work, not speakers that match the decor.


For the bar area get a speaker with high a sensitivity (or efficiency) spec of at least 90dB or higher. The second set of speakers should stay as high in sensivity as possible, no lower than 87dB. All speakers should maintain an impedance no lower than six Ohms, not six Ohms nominal, six Ohms minimum. The impedance load should be your decision maker, not the color.





"First, they need to be wall mountable."




Anything is wall mountable, if you just think about how you can mount them. You are placing too many restrictions on the choices that don't need to be there.






"Lastly, is a sub woofer necessary or would a good pair of speakers handle the bass?"



Buy a small, fairly inexpensive sub. You can crank up the bass on the sub and not push the receiver's limits.



.
 

Silver Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 478
Registered: Jan-05
http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20LM1

They're white, small and sound good. The possible arrangements for placements is quite versatile too. You ever thought about hanging them from the ceiling like a chandelier in an arrangement with four of the LM1s facing outwards.

/\
<>
\/


A bit like the above arrangement but obviously so they're better aligned( formatting wont let me do it) where each speaker faces outwards from one point in the centre where they're all attached. I've heard it and seems like a suitable option for your store. They produce suprising bass too. Perhaps get 2 sets of them so a total of 8 LM1s. I'm not sure if you can use a subwoofer but I dont see why not if you wanted.
 

New member
Username: Aghymike

Rancho palos verdes, Ca United States

Post Number: 2
Registered: May-07
Thank you for all your suggestions, it is really great to have the expertise of so many people helping me out.

Jan Vigne, your post was great. It felt like walking into a small audio store and getting reprimanded by the owner. But it helped.

Just to remind you guys, the limitations are not my decision. And if necessary, I will convince him to sacrifice "decor" and other factors for better sound.

Either way, some things have changed. Many of you may not agree, but I thought $2K was a little much for someone who really just wanted music that was in the background and sometimes loud. I convinced him that he could spend a lot less and still be happy. So maybe we are looking at more like $1000 range.

So yes, something like the

Harmon Kardon HK3480
Marantz SR4320
Yamaha RX-797

(I guess this post needs a new heading)

And yes, maybe just an mp3 player is better.

To clarify, the bar and clothing store aren't separate. The whole store is one rectangle, and maybe 10-15 feet smaller than what I first said.

This may be a dumb question, can't I just use a receivers "Speakers A & B" controls to have 4 speakers? I don't think a separate volume controller is needed.

So what about matching up one of the above amps with:

2 Boston Acoustics P430
or
4 Polk Audio RTi4

And for a sub

Boston acoustics XB2
Or
Polk audio PSW110

Any thoughts on this guys?

Thanks Again
-Michael
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10439
Registered: May-04
.

When you want it loud, do you want all the speakers at the same level? If so, you don't require a switch box for level set. However, unless you are very careful in your speaker selection, the switch box still provides added protection for the amplifier by way of the load resistors in the switch box. It is a bit of insurance when levels get raised. If you can control the system so it is never stressed and it is provided good ventilation, the extra protection will be desirable but not mandatory.


Look for reviews of the above speakers and report back as to the actual impedance load the speakers present to the amplifier. Speakers "A+B" are wired in parallel in the receiver, so any low impedance load will be halved when you connect all four speakers. I wouldn't run any mid priced receiver at less than six Ohms total impedance load unless it was strictly for background levels.

.
 

Gold Member
Username: Arande2

Just a matte... Missouri

Post Number: 2433
Registered: Dec-06
I just came from Silver Dollar City. I noticed that they had JBL around the park and I thought they sounded pretty good, at louder levels or softer levels (for a pro application anyway). They had a custom built subwoofer with JBL drivers in one area, which provided the rumbles needed in some of the rides.

I don't see why you can't just get a receiver for around $300-400, power some efficient JBLS (maybe $500 total) with it, and buy an EP2500 B-AMP (1500w RMS, $300) to power maybe a sub in each corner with 325w each (maybe $500 total including materials to build and a little more if you don't build the boxes yourself).

Why can't you just do that? It seems simple enough to me. Of course, that's breaking the $1000 budget.
 

Silver Member
Username: Serniter

Piscataway, New Jersey USA

Post Number: 164
Registered: Mar-06
I'm going to get flamed for this. However, if sound quality is not an issue,

Get these speakers:
http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VIEW_PRODUCT_PAGE_EVENT&product=am10_surrou nd_index#

And this receiver:
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Pioneer-A-V-Receiver-VSX-516-K/sem/rpsm/oid/14842 6/catOid/-12949/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Plug in whatever source you want, its unlikely to make a difference. I can think of plenty of drawbacks: inadequate subwoofer, missing midrange etc.

Otherwise, in order to get good sound in a store, I think you will require professional installation. Especially speaker placement.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY USA

Post Number: 1034
Registered: Oct-04
I've been thinking about this, and I think a Mirage Omnisat/Sub combo might do the trick http://www.miragespeakers.com/omnistat.shtml

...and they come in white.
 

Silver Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 479
Registered: Jan-05
http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/964

Buy 6 of these. So 3 pairs and a suitable reciever.
I think it's perfect. You can wall mount them too. Put one in each corner and one in the middle of each 40ft wall length.

Or will you just ignore my suggestion again?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7336
Registered: Dec-04
Well JJ, your sugestion involves an autoformer again, with it's cost and complexity.
The varying levels(as Jan pointed out) are to be considered as well.
Now we find that the area is a squeeze smaller than before(with a bar!) and I have put systems into similar spaces in homes.
The space is too small to warrant seperate zones, the 'bar' will play to whatever the room warrants.
A+B with whatever speakers fit in, 'paint or fabric over them' -Vigne, again.
 

Silver Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 480
Registered: Jan-05
Ye I thought about the separate zones too but its a tricky plan to put your hands on when we dont know how flexible the actual 'client' is. Thats my ideas out, I suppose you more experienced ecoustic members will have a better say. And of cause Jan.
I just thought they're small, white, and I know they sound good in large space. I know that subwoofers in stores sound silly as you can tell where the subwoofer is (a dvd store did this-its now closed). But whatever, good luck Michael.
Im retiring from ecoustics for a month.
 

New member
Username: Aghymike

Rancho palos verdes, Ca United States

Post Number: 3
Registered: May-07
Jan Vigne, the extra protection is a good idea. And I think the same volume through out the store is what they want. Thanks for starting to explaining impedance, I still have a lot to learn.

I don't think I'm gonna go with Bose. There has to be a better solution than that.

I'm going to look into the Mirage Omnisat/Sub. I have a pair of discontinued Mirages and like them a lot. Still need to check the tech specs, but would 4 connected directly (or with a switch box)to an amp and a powered sub be the way to go?

J. Jarvis. Didn't mean to ignore your comment but
6 x $175 = $1050
$1050 > $1000
Although maybe 2 and a sub? If that doesn't cover the area, 2 more.


And Nuck you right, I don't think separate zones is a good idea. And I don't the the store owner or staff will want to mess with 2 volume controls.

I wouldn't say sound quality isn't an issue. I know the budget isn't huge but I still figure I can get good sound.

What I might do is buy the amp and a pair of speakers and then see if another pair is necessary. Guessing what "loud" means to him is difficult. That way he could just tell me.

Is the Polk or Boston Acoustics set up I mentioned above a bad idea? Their "nominal impedance" is 8 ohms.

And in general, I thought it was a favorable to avoid small satellite speaker unless there is no other option.

Again, thanks guys.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY USA

Post Number: 1039
Registered: Oct-04
http://cgi.ebay.com/MIRAGE-OMNISAT-MICRO-SATELLITE-2-WAY-SPEAKERS-NEW_W0QQitemZ3 00102497429QQihZ020QQcategoryZ14996QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10440
Registered: May-04
.

You certainly don't require two zones in that space. Two zones implies separate sources playing simultaneously within the same space. One zone, multiple speakers is all you need.


Start with the basics. I think you will need at least two pair of speakers. That set up should be able to run off the A+B speaker outs of a decent quality receiver (the HK would be my pick here). If, after the install, you think you need another set of speakers, the next step will require speakers and a switch box and more cash. The only reason to not try the basic set up first would be after the fact installation costs. If the space is being prepared and running wires later would be expensive and inconvenient, you need to make provisions for the future at this time. If you believe you might require a third set of speakers, run the cables now to make future expansion simple and inexpensive, you can always pull them through the drywall at a later date. Just make certain you mark where the wires are terminated.


I doubt you will require more than two speakers in the room size you suggest. Take a look at similar shops in the area to get an idea what they are running and the results they obtain. You might get an idea for speaker brands from another shop that sounds good to your ear. If so, take your friend to the nice sounding shop and ask for an opinion of the sound quality from "X" speakers. Get an agreement with the understanding speakers change when the speace changes. CYA.



The small B&W's have the right sensitivity and the impedance is probably OK for two pairs on one receiver. If the Polks and Bostons have similar specs, they will very likely suit your needs. The sensitivity and impedance are the important items to assess. Again, I wouldn't limit my choices to white and wall mount as those two requirements can be worked around with a bit of creativity.


I would try to pin the owner down on volume requirements, they will either cause no problems if you guess correctly or major headaches if your ideas and his are not in synch. If need be, take him to the shop that sells the speakers you pick and let him decide if they play loud enough. If he OK's the level, you are under no obligation to give him more than he approves. CYA.


.
 

New member
Username: Aghymike

Rancho palos verdes, Ca United States

Post Number: 4
Registered: May-07
After some more discussion with the owner and some more research, this is what I settled on:

Harman Kardon HK3485 Stereo Receiver
2 Pairs of Polk Audio Atrium 45
1 Polk Audio PSW110 10" Powered Sub

Thanks for all your help
later
Michael
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY USA

Post Number: 1056
Registered: Oct-04
looks perfect for what you need.
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