Choices? amp w/ Dynaudio or Paradigm
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New member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-07 | I have been reading some of the threads and found them helpful, but wanted to see if I could get some more specific info. I am moving from a system consisting of Rogue Audio Amp and preamp combo and Vandersteen 2ce to an integrated and speakers with a smaller foot print b/c my apartment is too small. I have auditioned Dynaudio's Focus 140's (might be too much a stretch of the budget) and Audience 42's, Paradugm's Studio 40s, and JMLab Focal Chorus 806's. As far as integrateds I have only heard the Cambridge Azur 640 and the Arcam A80. The Cambridge did not suit my tastes. The Arcam was warm and full (not unlike my tube equipment which is probably why I favored it). I only heard the Focal's with the Arcam. The Focal's completley disappeared in the room, but emphasized the highs too much for me. So I am pretty much set on either of the Dynaudio's or the Paradigm. From some of the other threads I noticed some concern that the Arcam may not be able to sufficiently power the Dynaudios. Has anyone lived with the Arcam A80 and Dynaudio's? How about with the A80 and Paradigms? Would the Arcam A90 be necessary to get my monies worth out ofany of the speakers? Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2087 Registered: Sep-04 | Todd I know nothing about the Paradigms so I can't help you there. The A80 is no more. There is only the A70 and A90. So you either get the current model or get a good discount on that 80. The A70 is arguably better than the 80, but I wouldn't want to try to drive FOCUS 140s with it. It would be able to drive Audience 42s and possibly 52s. If it were my money I'd spend it the other way around. The A90 is an excellent amp, flexible, powerful and capable. Powering a pair of Audience 52s would be no problem. That combination would be lower in price than the A70/FOCUS 140 and I'm sure the A90/52 solution would be better musically. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-07 | Frank Thanks for the feedback. A nearby dealer has a demo A80 for 900 USD. He would let it go for 800 USD if I buy it with a pair of speakers but I don't think I can live with the Focals. Do you think the 52SE's are worth the extra dollars? thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2090 Registered: Sep-04 | Todd, The 52SEs are quite a bit better than the 52s. However, I would spend the extra dollars on the 90 rather than spend them on the 52SEs. The 52s are superb speakers which can easily show you changes as you improve electronics to a far more expensive level than you're contemplating. The Arcam A80 is OK, the A90 is far better. The extra drive, pace and attack would be more worthwhile in my opinion. This all presupposes that you'll have a really good source of course! Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-07 | I have what I believe is referred to as the second generation Rega Planet CD player. It is not the Planet 2000. Is that a sufficient source to warrant the A90? thanks |
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New member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 4 Registered: Apr-07 | Frank (or anyone who has some thoughts on this) I know I am becoming a bit of a nuisance, but I appreciate your advice and I have a couple of different options to run by you. #1 - Arcam A90 and either the Dynaudio 42 or 52 this would be the way I would go except I stumbled upon a great sounding combo: #2 - An old rotel RA985BX (100 watts for $229) with the Dyn Focus 140's. I listened to Dyns (both the 42's and the 140's) with Halo PreAmp and A21 amp, and NAD C372. Both Dyns were somewhat veiled with the Parasound combo, so that is out. With the NAD the 42's sounded alright, but not as warm as I like. the NAD - 140 combo was fatiguing after about 5 minutes, so it is out. But holy crap I had a listen to the ($229 used) Rotel with both Dyns and they sounded much more musical and detailed. The 140's really shone with the Rotel. I am getting out of a Rogue Pre-Power combo with Vandersteen 2ce's and I would dare say that the Rotel - 140 combo sounded as warm and musical as my current set-up. The Rotel-140 combo has more detail and maybe a bigger soundstage, but not as much space between instruments. I did all of the comparisons through a Rega Apollo CD player, so fairly similar to my Planet, though most people think the Apollo is somewhat better. OK, now for the question for you: am I nuts to pair that old Rotel amp with the 140's? In 7-8 months I should be able to come up with $2K for a replacement if needed. What suggestions would you have for an upgrade integrated? Would I be better off with the Arcam -42 or 52 combo? Man this is driving me crazy. Help...please. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4625 Registered: Feb-05 | Geez I'd take the Vandersteens and the Rogue over any of that other...stuff. |
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New member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 5 Registered: Apr-07 | If I wasn't in a small apartment I would probably keep the Vandersteens and Rogue too, but ... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7025 Registered: Dec-04 | Todd, if you are determined to stay in your present apartment, then proceed and bring your cdp to the dealer and listen to it in place of the apollo. Check which interconnects the dealer has in the demo setup as well. I am a little surprised that you found the Nad not very warm/fatiguing. I havn't heard that particular Rotel, but 'warm' doesn't usually pop up with the brand. I rather like the Vandersteen 2ce, BTW. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2094 Registered: Sep-04 | Todd, You're not being a nuisance, just trying to get some help. The Planet is a good CD player and pretty much the minimum I would consider for use in this company. The Apollo is a lot better and punches well above its weight in performance terms. As is usually the case with these things, personal taste counts for a lot. I would not be in favour of the Rotel/140 combination because the Rotel sound doesn't really do it for me. You have heard it - and you've heard it up against the competition you can consider in your area. Therefore if that's what you like, that's what you buy. After all, I don't have to live with your choice.  In fact, once you've made the purchase and start saving for your next trip to the dealer's, if you're still happy with the system further down the line, I'd consider changing the Planet to something more capable before changing the Rotel. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7029 Registered: Dec-04 | yep. Thats why I suggest Todd bring his player to the dealer for a head to head. The object is to reduce size, but, Todd, find the room, bud. |
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New member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 6 Registered: Apr-07 | Thanks for the feedback everyone. Nuck In defense of the NAD the salesperson said that it was far from broken in, and I was listening to it louder than I usually listen to music. As to the Vandy's, they are now twelve years old (still sound great and are in amazing condition), but I thought there had been amazing strides in speaker technology in 12 years. That combined with my space concerns led me to want to find a speaker with a smaller footprint. I almost bought Dyns in place of the Vandys 12 years ago so listened to them again and recalled why I almost bought the Dyns. I knew I couldn't power them with the Rogue. Its a domino effect. Frank/Nuck It sounds like you both think the Apollo may be so superior to the Planet that I may not like the Rotel/140 combo with the Planet nearly as much as with the Appolo. I wouldn't have thought there was so much difference, but I definitely will take the Planet to the dealer to make sure I will be happy. Very sound advice guys. (No pun intended there.) You guys have given me some things to think about. I just checked the cd board and see that there is much love for the Apollo, so I am reconsidering my options since I remeber when I bought Planet it was after I had a Rotel cdp in my system for a few days and returned it for the Planet and never doubted that move for a second. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4627 Registered: Feb-05 | "If I wasn't in a small apartment I would probably keep the Vandersteens and Rogue too, but ..." Gotcha... |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2097 Registered: Sep-04 | Todd, I have had customers replace their Rega Jupiter (twice the price of a Planet) with an Apollo. The Apollo was quite a revelation - and the new Saturn is in a different league again. ;) The fact is that the Planet was a great CD player and which can still show many modern players a trick or two. The question in my mind is whether you'd prefer a purely Rega solution electronics-wise. If you decided you wanted that then if you went for a Rega mira you would have to come down on the speakers side since the Mira will not drive FOCUS 140s. On the other hand, the Cursa/Maia pre/power can just about do justice to FOCUS 140s. That said this is a more expensive solution... Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 7 Registered: Apr-07 | Well I finally got the Focus 140's. Wow! They were a dealer demo, so they are broken in, or at least well on their way. They already sound better than my 12 year old Vandersteen 2CEs. The 140s just blew me away while listening to The Joshua Tree. The album came across just like seeing a live concert. I started to say sounded like, but the 140s convey more than just the music, they also seem to convey the ambience of live music. I think that is because of the much, much better soundstage than the Vandys; it is wider, deeper and sometimes seems to surround me. Well onto the reason for being on the integrated amp forum. I still have not decided on an integrated yet. Currently I have a Rogue Audio Magnum 66 pre and Parasound Halo A23 amp. I am half tempted to stay with the combo. However I recently heard the Rotel baby Class D amp with some B&Ws and was very impressed. I am not a fan of the B&Ws, but the quietness and clarity of the amp, while maintaining great musicality, was impressive. I also got to hear an Exposure 2010S integrated and Arcam Diva A90 through the Focus 140s. The Arcam sounded a bit boomy, not just the bass, even the mids. The Exposure delivered the music straightforwardly but not analytically. It was very involving even though the volume was never very loud. So I guess I am looking for any info on Exposure, like reliability of the brand, given the power and current is it likely to distort at higher SPLs? Also has anyone compared any of the Class D amps against each other? I am especially interested in PS Audio, rotel and Bel Canto. Any other class d amps to get excited about? Also any experience with the integrateds by PS Audio and Bel Canto? thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: AngelloPost Number: 72 Registered: Oct-05 | Flying Mole are D class amps and it is normally used in pro audio studios. Check out: http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/flyingmole_dadm100proht_amps.htm And, I think that hifi choice had review one of flying mole. Don't forget D class are 90% efective where most budget amps are most likley to be in AB class which means that they are only 50-60% effective! cheers, angello |
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Bronze Member Username: AngelloPost Number: 73 Registered: Oct-05 | http://images.google.si/imgres?imgurl=http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue17/i mages/FlyingMoleFront.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue17/fly ingmoledadm100.htm&h=266&w=400&sz=13&hl=sl&start=5&um=1&tbnid=S6p333MVHFhQOM:&tb nh=82&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DFlying%2BMole%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dsl% 26sa%3DN |
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New member Username: MchalePost Number: 2 Registered: Jun-07 | Todd, Have you ever checked out Totems before?? I had a pair of Sttaf floor standers in an apt. They did very well in all respects. Those with one of the Flying Mole products would sound great! |
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Bronze Member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 13 Registered: Apr-07 | Angello - that name alone sounds like a good idea to audition them. I don't know if there is a dealer in my area though. Besides I would really like to go to an integrated if possible. That is why I am interested in Bel Canto and PS Audio. Emcee - I just bought the Dynaudios and I like them so much I wouldn't even think of parting with them at this time. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2209 Registered: Sep-04 | Todd, Two integrateds which I think are powerful enough and good enough, both probably too expensive, but hey I'm trying... AVI Lab Series Integrated Naim SuperNAIT (OK, coming out in a few weeks but I've heard pre-production prototypes and so far it's yummy) Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7634 Registered: Dec-04 | Frank, Todd, I got an ad from a dealer to launch the superNAIT. i AM AFRAID TO GO. Guys, you really have to love the Rega Apollo. I run it ito my Classe kit, and it feels natural, now. At first, the timing seemed off, as compared to the Rotel 1072, just a bit jumpy, I figgured. Then I ran a comparo with the Apollo, the 1072 and my Classe trans/dac for a test. The Classe held up well, but the Apollo won the day. One song, repeatedly, on each player. Admittadly a rock song, but a reference. The Apollo is as good a player as regular guys can get. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4982 Registered: Feb-05 | Indeed... I'd die for crack at the SuperNait! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2222 Registered: Sep-04 | Well, we had it for a 'Naim open day' last week. Loads of Naim gear on show with the SuperNAIT in the middle for direct comparisons between the lower and higher stuff. It still wasn't a full production item, but far beyond a prototype. The main things that were different are detail software issues (software? in an integrated? you bet). The sound shouldn't change. It was very interesting and amp really had loads of balls driving a pair of Naim Allaes in a 7.5x5m room with ease. I have to say I'm getting tempted to make a sea-change in my system, swap out the Mani-2s which restrict my electronics due to being power-hungry monsters, and go for something like this. Very convincing argument for the approach. Nuck, I am surprised that the Apollo beat the Classe/TransDAC combo. That really shouldn't happen. The Apollo isn't in the same league price-wise. Incidentally, rock is one of the harder genres to get right since it's a blend of high energy, fast changes and often pretty dodgy recording. The first thing that goes out the window in this situation in my experience is timing which just kills the excitement or involvement. As to the launch, you should go, these things are fun and you don't have to buy anything! (howls of laughter fading into the distance) Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7654 Registered: Dec-04 | Frank, I am not sure what the trans/dac is doing. it seems kind of lifeless when I play something with good rock timing and fast attack(no dubbed roll in on the snare). The 1072 has the attack, but not the timing. The Apollo has the best balance, I suppose. When I do listen to classical, if bastardized classical,it is a cd of EntertainmentClassical, likely Warner Bros. music, cartoons. That sounds best on the Classe pair. The units are 5 yrs old together, Zu balanced I/C's, stock power cords to a Monster strip. Frank, ditch the Arcam, you mean? That good? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2225 Registered: Sep-04 | Nuck, Your description is pretty close to what I would expect for messed up timing. So it 'sounds' right but just doesn't engage. Ah well... Yes, I mean ditch the Arcam and Mani-2s. I'm shy of doing this since it means doing a whole load of work to figure out what to replace it with, and I'm a lazy so and so, but I'm slowly getting to the point where I may just have to change things. The Naim stuff really has something, darn it, and the Chord Electronics stuff is just too expensive for me to contemplate again. So I guess I'm saying yes, that good. Just don't expect any changes in the short term - too many bills to pay. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7667 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, Frank. I have a an empty room now to finish and treat, when I sort that, the results will be much better. Bills Shmills, you only go around once, old boy! Todd, this isn't helping your IA situation, sorry. Have you heard any PS Audio stuff? The only one I heard was with terrible speakers, in a bad place, so no opinions beyond views in print. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2228 Registered: Sep-04 | Nuck, Tell me about it! One of my closest friends died of cancer on Monday - he was just 33 years old. At the moment I can think of little else. Todd, where you at with the integrated amp situation? Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5019 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry for your loss Frank...I lost a loved one last week. Toughest work week I can remember. Hang in there... |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 279 Registered: Dec-06 | Condolences, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 15 Registered: Apr-07 | Frank/Nuck - Condolences to both of you. My IA situation has gone nowhere unfortunately. The one dealer in town who had some PS Audio equipment on loan from PS Audio had sent it back (or PS Audio asked for it back) by the time I had a couple of weeks with the 140s and was ready to try some different equipment. Because there are not any local dealers carrying either Bel Canto or Ps Audio (Oh, ironically I live in Denver and PS Audio, as you probably know, is in Boulder) I have changed my focus a bit. I just orderd a pair of Mullard 12AU7s (forget exactly which ones) that are an upgrad over the stock tubes in my Rogue Magnum 66 preamp. I am going to see what kind of affect the tubes have and them probably look at upgrading my power amp. The Halo A23 just does not do a very good job of soundstaging. Most of the instruments and vocals are in the middle of the soundstage. Some background vocals, high frequencies (cymbals) are to the outsides in space, that is about it. If I just go for a power amp I'll spend about $1100 USD, so I think I should go the used route. I have considered McCormack DNA .5 and 125, and fantasized about ML 23, 25 or 29, but probably too expensive. Any suggestions for a good amp to buy used? I would consider a used IA based on either of your opinions, if it is in my price range. The AVI Lab and Naim are definitely out of my price range. If I go with an integrated I would spend up to $1700 USD. Any suggestions in that area? And fairly soon I am going to pull the trigger on a used Appolo. They seem to pop up for sale on Audiogon pretty regularly. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7676 Registered: Dec-04 | Todd, you might check what is around from McIntosh. I am in Fountain next week..is that close to Denver airport? I havn't searched the Gon this week, are there a lot of Apollo's? Likely folks buying Saturn's. What price do you like on a pre-loved Apollo? Great player.love mine. |
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Bronze Member Username: TrwcyclistPost Number: 16 Registered: Apr-07 | Nuck I have never heard McIntosh equipment. How would you describe the sound? Fountain is about 80 miles from the airport; it is south of Colorado Springs. I don't know that there a lot of apollos on there now, but I see them regularly. Alot of the sellers do mention that they are upgrading to the Saturn. I have seen pre-owned apollos for $775. Does that sopund like a good price to you? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1940 Registered: May-05 | Todd, Thats about the average price I've seen them for too. A good deal on a used piece is an individual basis. A new in box or barely used one would be a steal for $775. One that hasn't been treated with the utmost care may not be a great deal at that price. Then again, I think the full retail price for a new one is one of the best deals in audio if that puts things into perspective. How to describe the way Mac gear sounds? Just about perfect. Very Hifi, yet very musical and engaging. I can't find any fault to it. People who don't like it tend to say its a little too laid back and smooth. A full Mac system will be one my first purchases if I win the lottery. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7693 Registered: Dec-04 | drop by the Nuck and Stu shop when the powerball drops! |
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