Amplifier wattage

 

New member
Username: Pkmaven

Boynton Beach, FL United States

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-07
Volume, or how loud the music is played, is one thing but watts per channel (stereo)is something else. Why is it that someone using tiny, very expensive monitor speakers, powering them with a 200wp/ch amplifier hears detail, imaging, depth, and ambience that the same speakers played with 50 wp/ch cannot produce? In some audio societies, only members who have 200 watts per channel (RMS)are allowed membership? Until you hear your speakers, any brand (with tweeters at ear level), played with a high end amplifier, you will never know how good your speakers can sound. P.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10154
Registered: May-04
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Respectfully, PK, you have a lot to learn. Can you tell me which audiophile societies only allow members with 200 watt or above amplifiers into the fold and why that would be? What if a member has Klipsch LaScalas (which are a Stereophile recommended component, by the way)? Anything more than 25 watts is wasted. This is the most absurd thing I've heard since Billy got banned.


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Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6620
Registered: Dec-04
No SET members?
No soup for you!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

LondonU.K.

Post Number: 4658
Registered: Dec-03
Musical Fidelity makes amps and a similar point to Peter.

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/hifi/index.html

Lots of assumptions in that second link, with its terrible html.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pkmaven

Boynton Beach, FL United States

Post Number: 13
Registered: Mar-07
I have owned Klipsch La Scalas and a pair of Klipschorns. They are hugely efficient and they do not require a high wattage amplifier. I drove mine with a Sumo Nine + class "A' amp beautifully. Obviously, painting with a broad brush creates excitement. There are many high efficiency speakers requiring lower wattage to operate, but the sonic benefit of a high current , high wattage amplifier is hard to beat. I remember being in a man's home who had a pair of Chartwell LS3/5a speakers on stands, biamplified with a Janis W-1 15" subwoofer. He played orchestral music on his Linn Sondek with Itok arm carrying a Koetsu Black. The power was 200 wpch from his Audio Research amplifier for the tiny satellites, and another with 100 watts mono for the sub (very efficient). The sound was unforgettable and I asked him why he needed 200 watts per channel for such tiny speakers. He held the edges of his earlobes and said, "I like it clear". I owned a pair of M&K speakers on stands with a powered M&K sub. I drove them with a Marantz 2270 receiver (2x70 wrms)and I was happy. One day a far more knowledgeable man visited me and brought a Gas Ampzilla lla amplifier (200wpch). He hooked it up to power the small satellites (1 tweeter, 2 midrange per). I could not believe the difference in the sound-more specifically the air, the imaging, and the depth. I maintain that someone with a pair of big Polk speakers will hear an enormous difference playing those speakers with 200 wpch! The Asians do not put large power supplies in their receivers or dual mono circuitry. I would counsel anyone to buy an integrated amplifier over a receiver, and to always buy the highest wattage they can afford. They will not have their first speakers veery long and the replacements will be larger. P.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Post Number: 115
Registered: Dec-06
Hey Jan, how could you doubt a man who holds the edges of his earlobes when he speaks?
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 1683
Registered: May-05
Peter,

In the instances you mention, how sure are you that it was the quantity of the watts, and not the quality of them?

Ever seen a McIntosh amplifier? Next time you do, pay attention to the wattage meters on the front face. On most average speakers in most avreage rooms, at average volumes, they'll rarely go over 30 watts, except for peaks, then they'll rarely go over about 80 or 90.

Just my and a lot of dealer's observations.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 1684
Registered: May-05
To add, I'd take a 50 watt McIntosh or Naim amp over just about any 200 watt amp without thinking twice about it.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pkmaven

Boynton Beach, FL United States

Post Number: 15
Registered: Mar-07
When two sources of amplification are used, both at the same volume with the same speakers, the only difference is the amplifier source. Amplifiers all sound different at the top. I was involved in a blind evaluation where the source material never changed and the speakers never changed, but only the amplifier was changed. Each of us (4 people) was handed a clipboard and we listened to music and noted where we thought we were sitting (in audience), depth and realism of the bass, imaging, etc. After all the results were in, we were shown the different amplifiers: Threshold Stasis Class A 200wpch, Krell 200wpch, Mark Levinson 200wpch, Classe' 200 wpch. All of us noticed differences, and everyone had chosen the Threshold for perception of tenth row center, deepest bass,and best imaging without knowing which amplifier was on. Interestingly, the krell gave the perception of sitting very close to the front of the stage with very deep bass. Amplifiers are all different with their own sonic signature. P.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2020
Registered: Sep-04
Indeed Peter, that is so, but the question Stu made remains unanswered. It's a fact that when listening to speakers of normal sensitivity (87db/w/m or so) at normal listening levels it is unusual to use above 10 watts of power. I'm not saying that having the extra power isn't a nic thing, but I wouoldn't want it at the expense of other attributes.

I find it interesting that you don't mention anything to do with pace, rhythm and timing in your clipboard scenario. I'm not surprised, just interested. Was there any mention of these attributes in there?

Regards,
Frank.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pkmaven

Boynton Beach, FL United States

Post Number: 16
Registered: Mar-07
One day I was at an audio store who was a GAS dealer. James Bongiorno walked in,visiting his dealer. I had no clue who this flamboyant character was but I was invited to join them for lunch as long as I did not talk shop. During the meal Bongiorno looked at me and asked if I wanted to ask him something. I said that I has only two questions. The store owner granted permission and I asked what speakers JB used while perfecting his Ampzilla ll. He told me he only used Dahlquist DQ 10s. I asked him how he powered his own system. He said he used a pair of DQ 10s with three stacked Ampzilla lls on each side. I quickly did the math and noted that the wattage was almost two killowatts per channel. I was obviously shocked, but he noticed and softly explained that with less than 200wpch on most good speakers you do not get the "hit" or the "slam" because there are things missing like a huge transformer, massive capacitance, full complimentary circuitry, etc. and the average audio guy is an equipmentfile and has little knowledge of the power needed to produce anything like the sound level needed. He further explained that the WAF, room size, and upbringing had a lot to do with this. Picture the parent at the foot of the stairs yelling, "Turn that down!". P.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2021
Registered: Sep-04
Peter,

This too is true and yet Stu's question remains unanswered.

Put it this way, there's nothing wrong with a lot of power in the right application. However, it is not the only parameter by which you choose equipment. There are many others. After all, if you take a very powerful engine and place it in an ordinary car, the car will not perform very well because the chassis can't take the power, the drivetrain is under-specified to provide the power to the wheels which can't cope with the power to lay on the road. It's a question of balance.

Furthermore, there is the question of how each watt (or horsepower) of power is developed and transmitted. It's a bit like lazy diesel power versus snap petrol power. There are quite a few amplifiers out there which have very highly specified power supplies but which don't make huge claims for power. Naim, for example, use large toroidal transformers and banks of capacitors to store enough energy, but they don't claim to develop huge amounts of power. Yet when you compare them to amplifiers of far more power on paper, the Naims often have better drive and sound just as loud as their competitors. There are others of similar ilk such as Arcam, Rega, McIntosh, Audio Research, Krell and Mark Levinson.

Then again there are others who claim to develop huge amounts of power but when it comes to the crunch, they seem to run out of steam. Test bench tests show they are up to specification, but in real life applications their power supplies let them down. It is the power supply which is the core of any power amplifier because it is the power supply which defines how much energy can be put through to the speakers.

Notice how I talk about energy rather than power. This is because it is a more accurate term in this situation. In this application, power is actually a function of current and load - i.e. the impedance of a speaker. Now the impedance of a speaker changes with the frequency of the signal applied to its terminals, and this varies quite wildly depending on the speaker design. Therefore, if the speaker impedance is 8 ohms at 1 khz but 2 ohms at 300hz (these are vaguely reasonable numbers), the power needed to supply the same volume at 300hz is 4 times more than that required to reproduce the 1khz signal. So you need 4 times the energy at that point, but you don't need a higher power rating - you need a decent power supply. Give a 200wpc amp which doesn't have a decent enough power supply a difficult load and it will simply run out of steam. Give it an easy load and it'll happily show you a loud and boisterous time worthy of a 200w amp.

Regards,
Frank.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10160
Registered: May-04
.

If I'm correct, the points you have made so far are; 1) a 82dB, 15 Ohm speaker requires a bit of power to drive well. "Clarity" has nothing to do with it. And "power" being a very nondescript term that says nothing about the make up of the watts. 2) You believe the knowledgable man led to to a sound quality improvement by taking you from a Marantz 2270 receiver to an Ampzilla and it was only the watts that mattered. What was the difference in price, size and weight of the two units, PK?



PK, why did you start this thread? What is your point? I'm not going to debate anything with anyone who holds those concepts of how a system works as a truism. At this point you are sounding foolish rather than helpful.



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Gold Member
Username: John_a

LondonU.K.

Post Number: 4660
Registered: Dec-03
I agree with Frank. Perhaps it would help to recognise the difference between continuous power delivery and transient energy. Musical Fidelity starts by assuming we want 105 dB in peaks at 10' with no distortion and then calculates we need e.g. 500 W P C for 85 dB sensitivity speakers - continuous. Someone listening continuously at 105 dB is heading for hearing damage. You'd need ear protection. An amp for domestic use does not need to be able to deliver sufficient power to obtain such sound pressure levels. Public address systems, where the energy is dissipated into the open air, might need that sort of power. But they don't sound good when playing music, in my experience.

By the way, In those ads, MF is flagging some new product to be announced on 1st June.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pkmaven

Boynton Beach, FL United States

Post Number: 17
Registered: Mar-07
I agree with all you question about amplifiers and power. I don't think that it is the raw power the amp can provide that affects what we all want to hear. The quality of the amplifier certainly makes the difference. What I see is the quality power supply, the bipolar transistors, the banks of capacitors, et al, all contribute to the sound, but most of what is desireable in an amplifier, more often than not, is found in the higher wattage components. I am not claiming that there are no smaller amplifiers with innards built like the big boys, but usually, the dual mono jobs with big transformer are the ones that make a sonic difference. I just spent much time with a friend who has a pair of Piega C2s driven by a Jungson integrated class A amplifier. He has a Sony X77 and Rell subwoofer. The sound is superb, and the 80wpch amp has no problem driving the piegas. Inside that amp are dual power supplies, rows of caps, and full complimentary circuitry. It works just fine. It is unique in the market and does not represent the norm. Naim, Fm Acoustics, and others are also excellent amplifiers withought huge wattage. To be sure, the speakers dictate the need. Each amplifier has it's own sonic signature! P.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6630
Registered: Dec-04
Is that where all this leads?

"Every amp has it's own sonic signature"?

I coulda been home by now!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pkmaven

Boynton Beach, FL United States

Post Number: 19
Registered: Mar-07
Nuck,
I won't let you down, I'm still adamant about the huge amount of air, extreme perceiveable depth, and solid imaging experienced when listening to dynamic type loudspeakers (any size) played off a good 200 wpch amplifier! P.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10166
Registered: May-04
.

Bipolar transistors?!!!!!!! Oh, Lord, give me a break. No wonder you think watts.





Yes, we should all buy a well built amplifier. Thank you, PK.






NEXT!




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Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2027
Registered: Sep-04
Peter,

A big transformer is only a requirement for a linear power supply. This is because, as the power requirements fluctuate, the transformer reaches saturation as the current flows through it. Once saturated, the transformer can't draw more power and this is the reason for the high rating by comparison to the power output of a good amplifier. For example, a Naim 250.2 amplifier uses a 400VA transformer to produce just 80wpc in pure class B operation.

Regards,
Frank.
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