My first post: Is Nad c320bee powerful enough BASS for JBL s310 speakers

 

New member
Username: Morrilt

Post Number: 1
Registered: Mar-07
Backstory:
I have this yamaha a-700 ampifier, which my parents gave me, that they bought like 20 years ago hooked up to a pair of JBL s310s. Have to tap it a couple times to clear dust from connectors to get a clear sound..... bad news.

this is my secondary system. My main system is a Nad 320bee, with BW 602's this system is really sweet.

The other day i decided to try my nad amp on my jbl speakers and OMG, what a difference.

Now i know i need to get another amp for these speakers, although i want to make sure that this is the best fit. the jbl s310 are massive speakers with a 10" 4" and 1" speaker, and are capable of great bass production.

THis is also my dance hall / living room speakers, so bass is really important to me. The bass sounded really nice with the NADS, (my gf listened and asked if I had installed a sub woofer) but part of me wanted to turn the bass lvls up even a touch more, i dont know if i can do this by getting a equilizer? or perhaps i should get a different amp with better bass control?

Also the specs on my speakers say nominal power rms 200watts and i know that the nad delivers 50watts, now i know they sound great, and i am a total novice, is this trouble?

one last thing, part of me is thinking about combining my two systems for parties, having the 602s for mid high, and letting the jbls focus on the low end.... so really getting some good bass out of this amp is really a priority? cant go over the 400 price tag.

Tips, please
-Todd
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6242
Registered: Dec-04
Todd, without looking up the jbl's, do they have twin binding posts?
Like one set for low, one high?
Splitting the system is begging for time incoherence, BTW.
And get the Yamaha into somebody to hose it down with cleaner and check the connections, before you pop a speaker.
The Nad will power anything, but not to 'party' levels.
If you do a 'hey guys, check this out' with the 320, you might blow a speak with bad input.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9956
Registered: May-04
.

" ... so really getting some good bass out of this amp is really a priority?"




Define "good bass".
 

New member
Username: Morrilt

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-07
Good points guys, I was just talking to some people that told me that its really no problem to hook these babies up to 200watt speakers.

Like i said i am pretty comfortable with the amp at 50% volume, my only question is can i put in an equilizer to get a little more bass out of this baby, at what point do i have to worry about shorting out the amp?

-Todd
 

Gold Member
Username: Arande2

Extreme SQ FTW

Post Number: 1861
Registered: Dec-06
I have a little 4-ohm (like 2 watts max?) speaker in my room hooked up to my old receiver and I want to hook up a Behringer EP2500 (maybe $500, maybe 2400w) in bridged mode to see if it will put out 10khz loud enough to have 1mm excursion!
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6260
Registered: Dec-04
Like i said i am pretty comfortable with the amp at 50% volume, my only question is can i put in an equilizer to get a little more bass out of this baby, at what point do i have to worry about shorting out the amp?

Mo how are you going to short the amp?

A shorting is a manual crossing of wires.

If you mean screwing up the system, then we will understand better.

And that is coming up in 3...........2...................1............
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 426
Registered: Sep-04
MORE bass isn't necessarily BETTER for the overall sound. It all depends on what you want to achieve.

Many people think their systems sound great, because they have more bass coming through than was originally intended to be heard, by the engineer who mixed the music. When this occurs, these people are often hearing an over-inflated bass sound, which to an audiphile, used to hearing a balanced sound, would constitute 'baggy' bass and 'superfluous' amounts of it, at that.

My advice is think about how what you're hearing in your living room, compares with any live concerts you've attended in recent years. This may sound like a tall order, but after a while, your ears (and brain) become trained to 'remember' what things should sound like.

Distinctive bass notes, which grumble along, nicely with the music, all the way, without getting lost when more instruments come creeping in, during crescendos, tells you that the bass is there in the right amount.

When the bass notes 'bloom' and over shadow finer details in the midrange, you can bet there's too much. Too much, meaning an artificial enhancement of the bass. This is exactly what graphic equalizers do. They degrade the sound. A good amplifier sounds nicely balanced and, above all, MUSICAL with it's tone controls defeated (turned off or set to zero ((Not minus zero - just the centre position)) .)

Instead of seeking MORE chocolate on the cake, think more about the quality of it's taste. Do the notes stop and start cleanly? Does the bass guitar seem to hang in a space of it's own and not get lost in large passages of music? Do the drums really sound like hollow receptacles, with someone hitting a stretched skin with sharp stick, or are they just featureless 'thuds' in the background?

My rough guess is that, given the right speakers, your NAD (depending on the model) will be offering a good stab at all these qualities. First, try looking at different speakers, before looking to replace the amp.

I'm also guessing that perhaps you are craving something more artificial in the way of bass extension and perhaps have lost sight (or sound) of what a musical score should sound like, in the 'flesh'. Give these principles some thought and experiment, accordingly.

Hope this helps. It's only guess work on my part. Be interesting to see if others agree or not.

So ask yourself WHY you want more bass, to begin with. It might be that it's the midrange is lacking, without you realising it. Just a hunch...

V
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 427
Registered: Sep-04
Another thing worth remembering also, is that very few domestic hi-fi set ups can replicate the sheer intensity and control over bass that you get at a concert.

I remember being at an open air folk festival. In between bands, they played some recorded music I was familiar with. The bass was coming up through the concrete and I could feel it in my stomach. Mrs Varney was ready to go home, but I stood my ground, saying "no... I need to stand for a few moments more and feel this... It's org@smic...".

It wasn't a bloom, it was a crisp, hard sound,; full of texture, which was very pleasant, indeed. That was probably many thousands of £££'s worth of professional equipment I was hearing in action.

Your source: ie: your compact disc player or tape deck will also make a difference to the bass sound qaulities of the system. Cabling (debateably) will also make a difference. Check all of these options, before deciding it's one component that fails to satisfy your lust for the deep notes.

V
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 428
Registered: Sep-04
And if you should get 'more' bass - and your windows, doors and speaker cabinets start to vibrate and make really annoying buzzing sounds - just what will you have achieved?

V
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6264
Registered: Dec-04
VA, if you keep typing, I'll keep reading because your well delivered post is spot on for our friend Mo.
 

New member
Username: Morrilt

Post Number: 3
Registered: Mar-07
anyway, as far as this speaker set up is concerned its mostly for dancing / hip hop, music that was never played live, always in a recording studio, and my best approximation to what i am trying to crecreate is a dance floor in a club, where there is significantly more bass.... anyway i am not replacing the nad, i already have the nad in my upstairs bedroom as its what i use for listening to finer audio quality, ciello etc, btw, when i listen to a cieello in a hall, it amakes every h air on my body stand at attention, and i really cant get that feeling at all with my yoyoma cds bw602 nad320bcee 100cables.... sob.
I just saw a NAD 7225 pE, on craigslist going to do a little reasearch on it and see how it looks
 

Bronze Member
Username: Stryvn

Post Number: 51
Registered: Dec-06
Thank you, Varney!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9959
Registered: May-04
.

First, Andre, you really need to try to answer questions posed by the original post, not just tell us what bizarre experiment you are going to attempt or what equipment you own. 1mm at 10kHz???! How ya'gonna measure that, Andre? And why? Come on, Andre, I know you're only 14 but ...




Varney, you sound like a novice hifi salesman. The op isn't interested in organic sound, the differences in cable or anything other than more bass. Lots more bass. More bass than cables are going to provide. I suspect, "The bass was coming up through the concrete and I could feel it in my stomach", made him think that was just what he wanted in his room. You might as well be telling him to not smoke dope because it isn't what grown ups do. I would put money on the fact your advice is wasted on him - as evidenced by his last post.





Here's my advice.


Lesson #1; 50% on a volume control is close to maximum power from the amplifier, so, unlike Nuck, I am not comfortable with the idea you are playing a bass heavy dance track at 50%. Remember that, it is important. If you forget it, you'll be asking us why your speakers stopped sounding good. If you blow up this amplifier, you'll be paying for repairs instead of more equipment.



A volume control is a valve and it lets through voltage at varying rates depending on the input. It is not meant to let full voltage through at full rotation, so stop thinking there's more power available just becuase you can still turn the knob. The output through the vc is relative to the input to the vc and the higher the voltage coming in, the lower the point on the vc where the amp it feeds will reach full power. All amplifiers have an input voltage requirement and after that requirement is met any more input voltage will drive the amplifier beyond its limits and into clipping distortion. Clipping is very, very bad joojoo! Since all sources have different amounts of voltage they can output, where the maximum input/output occurs for any one amp is variable also. That's why you have more rotation left on the vc after your amp has started to clip. That means use your head instead of your fist. In most cases, about 1-2 O'Clock on the vc is all you can ask of an amplifier before you reach clipping. Cranking the vc past this point is asking for trouble and is stupid. By the time you hear distortion, you are well past the point where the amplifier has started to produce more distortion than clean power. Turn it down! or risk blowing out your system. I repeat, by the time you hear distortion, you are well past the point where the amplifier has started to produce more distortion than clean power. Turn it down or risk blowing out your speakers, amplifier or both.



Lesson #2; the more bass you ask of the amplifier, the lower on the vc clipping will start. Bass requires the highest voltages to drive. That means the more bass you feed the amplifier with an eq, the lower on the vc clipping begins because more voltage is coming into the vc. If the amp clips at 2 O'Clock without extra bass, it might begin to clip at 10 O'Clock when you add an eq and crank up the bass. If the amp clips constantly, you will eventually damage either the speaker, the amplifier or both. By the time you hear distortion, you are well past the point where the amplifier has started to produce more distortion than clean power. Turn it down! or risk blowing out your speakers, amplifier or both.



Lesson #3; dance music by its nature has lots of bass power. Dance music is already feeding the amplifier high levels of voltage in the bass regions. Go back and read lessons # 1 & 2.



Lesson #4; If you want more bass, there are better ways to get it than with an eq. The first is where you place the speakers. Put your speakers on the floor and in the corner and play some music. Now pull the speakers to the center of the room and put them on a chair and play the same music. You should hear much more bass when the speakers are in the corner than in the center of the room. So, move the speakers back into the corner on the floor. That's where the system will give the most bass without taxing any of the components.



Lesson #5; everything has its limits. Go back and read the previous lessons. If you can't get enough bass by speaker placement, you will only stress the system by adding an eq. Rather than adding stress to the system (which will eventually cause it to break) add a component meant to do the job you want done - give more bass. Go buy a subwoofer with its own amplifier. A powered sub. You will take the stress off your amplifier and the subwoofer can be played as loudly as it can go without clipping distortion. Quality is not relative to how much bass it puts out, so, buy whatever sub gives you the most bass for the dollars you have. Buy a powered sub that has speaker level inputs and run your system through these inputs. Put the sub in the corner on the floor. When you have more money, buy a second sub and put it in the other corner. This will be the "professional" way to solve the problem (a bi-amped system) and will result in the lowest stress on the system and therefore the highest volume levels with the lowest danger levels. Adding two subs will be the equivalent of having four times as much wattage in your main amplifier just by adding the drivers.



Lesson #6; if all this isn't enough bass for you, grow up an don't smoke dope.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9961
Registered: May-04
.

Morilt -Just so you know, here's a post from Varney in another thread currently running about dumb ideas. The world seems to be full of them.



Varney
Silver Member
Username: Varney

Birmingham
England, UK

Post Number: 424
Registered: Sep-04
Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 03:55 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dude - I have been a complete IDIOT about this, so no point asking sensible questions of me. Make no mistake... I am not proud of the very stupid thing I have done.












.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9962
Registered: May-04
.


That should be lesson #7 for both of you.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6280
Registered: Dec-04
JV, that 50% was a quote from Mo.

I am a firm believer in completely overpowering the speakers abilities.

I run way more power than the speakers can handle, to keep th vc in the lower registers for the reasons you state.

However, discrete circuits and variable outputs negate the 1 o'clock rule to a large extent.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9969
Registered: May-04
.

"I am a firm believer in completely overpowering the speakers abilities."


Having more power available than you need is fine. I doubt that will be the case with Morilt. In his case, I think "overpowering" takes on a different meaning.


"I run way more power than the speakers can handle, to keep th vc in the lower registers for the reasons you state."


That isn't really how it works, Nuck. The input voltage is still relative to the output voltage and the volume control can only let through X amount of voltage. If the input sensivity of the amp drops, then you reach full power with lower voltage coming into the amp. Not many consumer amps have an input sensitivity lower than 1 volt. The taper on the vc makes more difference to the amount of wattage the amp produces at any setting on the vc than the amount of power you have available, and the efficiency of the speakers will determine how loud the system gets with "X" amount of voltage into the power amp. Even with lots of power available, if your speakers require lots of power to play loud, you'll still probably clip the amp at about 2 O'Clock on the vc. It's voltage at that point, not watts that matter. If your speakers don't require much power and the vc is an audio taper, you won't have to advance the vc very far to get very loud no matter how much power you have available. Twenty watts or two hundred watts makes no difference to a Klipschorn when you're discussing clipping the amp.




"However, discrete circuits and variable outputs negate the 1 o'clock rule to a large extent."


That makes no sense. Variable output what? You'll have to explain why discrete circuits change the 1 O'Clock rule. This really is input = output and the vc controls the "=".


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6293
Registered: Dec-04
Yup and yup.
Discrete volume control is a 'feature' of some controls for the express purpose of avoiding accidental output.
Like little Timmy cranking the big knob and scaring the bejesus out of everybody.
The response to input is decidedly non- linear, not a straight gain pot.
Usually on receivers, where fly by wire is the norm, the last crank on the knob is where the power is.

The tech dialed in the sensitivity last year for me, a level 2.3v across the board, dual mono.
Thank goodness I do not have to do the phono.
Yet.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6294
Registered: Dec-04
Morill, sorry to jack your post.

Having more power available than you need is fine. I doubt that will be the case with Morilt. In his case, I think "overpowering" takes on a different meaning.

That seems very true.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9973
Registered: May-04
.

"Discrete volume control is a 'feature' of some controls for the express purpose of avoiding accidental output.
Like little Timmy cranking the big knob and scaring the bejesus out of everybody.
The response to input is decidedly non- linear, not a straight gain pot.
Usually on receivers, where fly by wire is the norm, the last crank on the knob is where the power is."


I assume you simply mean another volume control pot in line with the master vc. A gain control. But I really don't understand your use of words.



" ... avoiding accidental output."

Sooner or later, if you want to reach full power from the amp, you'll have to get the voltage from somewhere. This means you'll have to have the vc advanced far enough that an "accidental output" is still likely to happen if little Timmy - or big Timmy - isn't taught how to use the equipment in an intelligent manner.



"The response to input is decidedly non- linear, not a straight gain pot."


Most vc's are not linear. That is why you generally begin clipping the amp at 2 O'Clock on the dial, there is still room for low output sources. But not for the average component outputting 1-2 volts. Nor are these level controls a straight gain pot - whatever that is.



"Usually on receivers, where fly by wire is the norm, the last crank on the knob is where the power is.""


Fly by wire, huh? The "last crank" on most receivers is where the system goes into clipping distortion and power supply droop and then the smoke begins to rise. That's the "last" crank. If the user doesn't understand clipping and what it sounds like, you'll likely experience this sooner rather than later.



Nuck, if your Classe separates have individual trim pots for input sensivity, that's great. But most receivers, if not all contemporary receivers and integrateds for that matter, do not have that luxury. And I have yet to meet anyone wanting more bass while playing dance/hip hop who has ever turned anything down!


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 435
Registered: Sep-04
Jan, I find it hard to understand why you have suddenly decided to act like an a$$hole. Are you having a bad day, or something? I'm not even going to argue with your totally uncalled for, scathing comments, because they come across as nothing more than a childish attempt to try and embarrass someone for speaking the truth and being a little self-denigrating when they seek advice. That wasn't for you to try and drag up against me. I asked for advice in good faith on the other thread and offered what I think is good advice on what perhaps not to expect... not to have to contend with underhand tactics like you've just displayed.

I would expect a more dignified humour from a man of your age and experience...

I used to think you were a decent sort of chap. I guess I was wrong. That was just plain nasty and I believe you owe me an apology.

V
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 437
Registered: Sep-04
Oh, and being quoted, totally out of context, for the purposes of this childish sport, doesn't embarrass me, by the way. But it may just be quite illuminating, as to how some people's minds work... :>

V
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9975
Registered: May-04
.

I wasn't making an attempt to embarrass anyone. Just showing that we're all capable of less than brilliant decisions. I have made my own mistakes and hope to have learned a lesson from them. If anyone is embarrassed, just look around; you're not the only fish paddling against the current in the sea of poor decision making skills.



I don't disagree with your advice regarding bass. I just think it was misguided by good intentions. I know from experience it is wasted when someone is wanting more bass from dance/hip hop. My reference to a "novice" salesperson should be taken to mean I've heard those words come out of my mouth and the mouth of many, many well intentioned newbie salespeople. None of whom made the sale and the client bought what they wanted from someone else. I have found most decent salespeople sooner or later realize they are seldom selling Bibles to the unwashed. (And I have found many memebers of this forum think everyone who gets on here wants good soundstaging, three dimensional imaging and articulate details. Not so. Some people just want more bass.) When the client says I want this, it is best to make an honest attempt at giving them what they want, not telling them they are wrong for wanting what they ask for. You said it yourself, "MORE bass isn't necessarily BETTER for the overall sound. It all depends on what you want to achieve." Morilt wants to achieve more bass. Telling him he shouldn't want that is not helpful and he will, as he has demonstrated, tell you why you are wrong and he is not. So, I do think my advice on how to go about getting what he wants, rather than leaving it that he shouldn't want more bass, is the more constructive advice. You're welcome to disagree with that advice.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6302
Registered: Dec-04
V, I didn't see no harm or foul.

All looks good from here.
 

Gold Member
Username: Arande2

Extreme SQ FTW

Post Number: 1875
Registered: Dec-06
Man if you want the maximum bass possible from those things build on to them and add these in a sealed cabinet attached to the bottom of the speakers

Upload

powered by one of these on each voice coil

Upload
Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 438
Registered: Sep-04
"I wasn't making an attempt to embarrass anyone."

Well, THAT's a relief! Wouldn't want you wasting your time here...

" Just showing that we're all capable of less than brilliant decisions."

Really? My less than brilliant decision, or my 'dumb idea', of which the world seems to be full? Yes, I can read right between the lines, where you clearly say: "Oh yes, I've made dumb-ar$e decisions like that, too... all the time...!" Pull the other one, it has bells on :-)

"I don't disagree with your advice regarding bass. I just think it was misguided by good intentions"

Fine, then just say that in the first place. If you don't want to be misunderstood, my advice is: don't set up the conditions.

"and he (Morilt) will, as he has demonstrated, tell you why you are wrong and he is not."

Yes... Like he's also demonstrated he can disagree quite pleasantly AND keep the conversation quite on track, without trying to publicly humiliate another member.

I'm not upset. A little shocked, maybe - but in hindsight, it's really made me smile.

Oh well... That's enough of that. By the smell of it, my sausages are done. I wanted to ask you, Jan:
How can I get two amplifiers to get really hot, so I can construct a sandwich grill? Any ideas? If not, I'll just use the one as a bathroom heater.

V
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 439
Registered: Sep-04
Nuck! Leave his ar$e alone, will you! Poor guy's in enough pain already :-)

V
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 440
Registered: Sep-04
That Santa Claus frightened the hell out of me then!

V
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 442
Registered: Sep-04
Read, re-read and read again.

Jan, please tell me I over-reacted back there. I'm sorry I barked at you like a bull terrier. It just didn't look good to me, at first. I'm trying to fully understand your comments and give you the benefit of my doubts. I might have misunderstood your reasoning, which I very much hope I did.

V
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6313
Registered: Dec-04
Yeah, V, you really kind of have to work yourself into JV's posts.
Think stripped-bare brutal honesty.
And a few funny ones, in a had a scotch kinda way.
99&44'100th's pure.
The last .56 will bite your britches.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9980
Registered: May-04
.


Probably.


No problems on this end.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6317
Registered: Dec-04
Looks good from here.
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 443
Registered: Sep-04
Good then. Another cup of tea, I think. Pass the Garibaldi... :>

V
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6321
Registered: Dec-04
Cheers, mate.

My small pipe got to heated up a short while ago, and Barenakedladies on the cdp now.
Pop music that is just sooo easy to hum with/
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6322
Registered: Dec-04
Morillt, have we killed you yet?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Stryvn

Post Number: 53
Registered: Dec-06
hehehe....I'm exhausted and I don't have a vested interest in this thread.


Only reading to absorb as much as I can.
I'm now dripping
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 446
Registered: Sep-04
Heres a question for you then:

What shall we say to Morilt, when he comes back asking:

"How can I get more Hip-Hop into my bass?"

V
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