Amp Upgrade Advice

 

New member
Username: Avnovice

Post Number: 1
Registered: Mar-07
I'd like some advice on upgrading to a separate multichannel amp. I've noticed that most folks like details before giving advice, so here it is.

Current setup:
Denon AVR 2803 (90w X 7)
Sony CD Multdisk Player
Denon DVD 577
B&W DM603 S3, ASW600 sub, DS6 S3 surround, (no center channel - yet)

I'd like to use the Denon as a preamp for now with an upgraded amp.
Currently considering: Rotel 1075, NAD T955, Adcom GFA 7605.

Room Size: 20 ft. X 15 ft. closed area - only one open French door left of FL speaker. 10 ft + sloped ceiling. Reasonable absorption (cloth sofa, chairs, rug, curtains). Somewhat reflective wall behind the front speakers (reflects surround speakers - aimed toward front) - this actually gives a very large front soundstage.

I had NAD/Klipsch 2 channel combination for years. Enjoyed the dynamic impact, but got tired of the brightness. I'd like a bit more dynamic range and loudness than the Denon delivers, but I don't want to give up the incredible detail and imaging of the B&W....
Thoughts? Will any of these actually be a significant upgrade?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6126
Registered: Dec-04
Hi Wayne. I would suggest that you revisit your player, and start from the source, including cables.
A standard upgrade in cables, above the box-stock el cheapos will be an automatic upgrade.No Monster stuff, it is the same as stock.

Your new cdplayer will change everything.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9913
Registered: May-04
.


Where to start?


Your B&W's, like most B&W's of the past decade, are not an easy load on an amplifier. http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/805bw/index3.html They will require a fair amount of current delivery from any amplifier asked to drive them beyond moderate volume levels. Most receivers are not up to the task. Certainly not when "loudness" is the request.


I can't find a review which gives the measurements specific to amperage capacity into low impedance/high phase angle loads, but from this review, http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/equipment/470/denon-avr-2803.html?print_page=y, your receiver apparently looses a reasonable amount of "grunt" when going from one channel driven to five channels driven. This wouldn't give me confidence in its ability to swing large amounts of current into a fairly difficult load such as the B&W's. Therefore, some dynamic compression is probably occurring in your system, certainly at high levels. If that's the case, a hefty power amp with the capacity to handle tough loads would make what should be an audible difference in sound quality, particularly at higher volume levels.


I agree with Nuck that a better CD player will more than likely give you some of what you're listening for, though "dynamic range" is a somewhat relative term here. Even excellent players are not going to suddenly give an additional ten dB of dynamic range over your carousel player. What you are probably asking for is more "slam". And that's probably not going to come from a CD player you can afford. That said, the old addage applies, garbage in - garbage out. The system cannot restore what the source player has left out. The source is always a good place to begin an upgrade but not always what someone is asking for when they want "loudness". Speaking of leaving things out - a new power amp cannot overcome the deficiencies in sound quality of a receiver as a pre amp for that matter.


Cables? Cables will alter your system sound. Discard the free junk that came with the player and buy something well constructed. You should avoid cable jewelery; buy simple, well constructed cables.


You list no center speaker and that is likely a problem, if dynamics are lacking in HT mode particularly. We have learned Dolby Digital sources will compromise dynamic range by as much as 10db when all five main speakers and a subwoofer are not utilized in a 5.1 system. It is an irreversible fact of how DD operates and cannot be worked around in most applications. Without a center speaker, your system isn't managing real dynamioc range.



None of these possibilites address "loudness". Volume is a function of the speakers' efficiency. The more efficient the speaker is at turning "watts" into "SPL's", the louder your system will play with the least dollar investment for watts B&W's are not Klipsch. That's good and bad. If you want Klipsch type "loudness", you will have to replace the B&W's. Be forewarned, most highly efficient speakers have a sound similar to the Klipsch. If you got tired of the Klipsch high end, you wil probably tire of any other high efficiency design. If you have a Triangle dealer around your area, you might give them a listen. They fit somewhere between your B&W's and the Kilpsch sound.




So, a new power amplifier, CD player, cables, center speaker and main speakers and you will have the beginnings of a decent system. Now, about that receiver as a pre amp ...




.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6138
Registered: Dec-04
Wayne, this is a tutorial only.
To get where you want to be, you should start with the source and move along slowly.
A good source is the key, then match pieces in time, asessing pieces along the way.
B&W are a great example of audio gone awry.
Requiring huge resources of power into difficult loads has made the upper/mid market into a hodgepodge of resources and products.

Rotel likes B&W and vice versa.

Very soon, i may ditch it all and get a Mac.
Mac can run B&W.

For 702 and up, the Classe amps are a fitted match, now that the group is together.
BTW, the Classe amps match with anything.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1232
Registered: Nov-05
The 603S3's certainly don't require huge gobs of power, while fairly efficient,they do have quite an impedence swing, however, if they are anything like my 602S3's they do prefer having a little power in reserve. Your source is a problem for the quality of your sound (as most multi disc player are) and your Denon receiver would operate on less watts than it states and a newer more powerful NAD (or Marantz) would be a good step up (and good match with the B&W's) if you are staying in the reciever (AVR) camp.
 

New member
Username: Avnovice

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-07
Thanks for the great comments.

Nuck, Funny you should mention no Monster stuff... that's what I have
I've seen several posts comparing the relative differences for NAD vs. Rotel (warmth vs. detail?) I guess one of my questions is that for the B&W's, is the NAD 'warmth' too much (the room with the sub has plenty of bass) or does the Rotel 'detail' bring out more punch with the B&W's?


Jan, Your description of 'grunt' or slam is what I meant by dynamic range. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know how the CD player's dynamic range will affect what I hear. I've currently got the Denon setup to split the center channel to FL and FR and I play music in 5 channel stereo mode. I've heard what I'm missing without the center channel for movies and DVD music with DD by listening to friend's setup with all 5 channels. Getting a center channel is also on my list...

M.R., I've also considering simply getting a different A/V Receiver. My cabinet space is limited, so a different receiver is an option. NAD, Marantz, Rotel... all are options.

I'm not ready to take a leap far beyond the price range of what we've discussed here. It sounds like the Denon has some obvious short falls in the high (transient?) current department. Maybe an upgraded AVR and player, with cables, could be the ticket.

Interestingly... I didn't think the Klipsch were as bright with the old NAD integrated amp from years ago. Maybe the Denon AVR is the common weakness.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6152
Registered: Dec-04
Wayne, you have a good idea of the grip that your room has, you are not a noob, of course.
Have you played the Denon straight through? Using the tone defeat? How does that work for you with various listening?
 

New member
Username: Avnovice

Post Number: 3
Registered: Mar-07
Nuck, I haven't adjusted the bass or treble tone at all. I've only shifted relative loudness amongst the speakers. The no-center-channel split to FL/FR is internally controlled. I've gone thru several iterations now, but I may have a made a break-thru last night. In short, I think I had tuned a couple of room frequencies and that was killing part of the 'slam'.
Sub is located just right of FR. I rotated it to project about 45 degrees in front of FL/FR, changed the crossover to 80 Hz, turned down sub amp volume control and pulled back the loudness for the sub a bit with the AVR. This elmininated most of the back room corner boominess and spread out the bass more evenly thru-out the room.
Surrounds are about 3 feet behind and 9 feet above the chairs (sun-room constraints}, so I can't get stereo by hearing front/back combo. I use the front wall to reflect surrounds back. I had been getting a good bit of listener fatigue (which really surprised me after having been a Klipsch owner for years). So, I switched the monopole to dipole on the DS6's. This essentially turns off the tweeter and turns on two small (2-3 inch) drivers to disperse sound. I also pushed up the loudness a bit for the surrounds to try to get the reflection in phase with the FR/FL.

Huge difference. Now, from the chairs, the front sound stage is huge, no distortion sounding, ear hurting phase muck. Out in front of the chairs, I get better front/back stereo.
I think the combination of the bass mode and the way the surround tweeter was reflecting did something nasty. The room is far from perfect for acoustics, but I've made major strides in the right direction.
I still want more power
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6175
Registered: Dec-04
Wayne, as I read your post, I shuddered at the rear reflection point. But then cutting the rear tweet calmed me down.
Ideally, the sub placement should not matter, but my stuff ain't ideal either, and it matters.
By not broadcasting into the greatest depth of the room, you may have exposed the subs limitations from before, and have now corrected.
My guess is the sub was 'wooly' and overly taxed.

By all means, more power is good.
Good power is pricey.
It might be a good time to scan the Gon for pre-loved pre/power setups?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6176
Registered: Dec-04
The Sony ain't helping you at all, my friend.
Try borrowing a cdp from a buddy or a dealer.
The source is, well, just that. Step one in the system.
 

New member
Username: Avnovice

Post Number: 4
Registered: Mar-07
I can hear a slight difference when I play music through the Denon DVD 557. I have digital coax hook-up with it - Monster cable analog with the Sony. Music sounds tighter with the 557... not a large difference, but noticeable.

It's just entry level, but does a nice job at upconverting to 1080i for video until the newer stuff becomes more reasonably priced.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6181
Registered: Dec-04
Wayne, the Denon is a very good video machine, a bit shy for music as a tradeoff, just my opinion.
Your spdif connection from the denon player is using the avr's DAC's, while the unbalanced connection from the Sony is using the Sony's DAC's .
Try the sony digital connection to the Denon for a comparo.

So many makers have shied away from good cdplayers that the animal is going UP in price for quality. Quality.
The standard products are so much better than uni players that forums have dedicaed cd topics.
Thats for a reason.
I have not tried Oppo as a brand, but for a low price, they seem to have a good following.
I like to think Rega, Nad, and, of course Rotel for redbook playback.
An outboard DAC is nice if it fits your line of credit.
 

New member
Username: Avnovice

Post Number: 5
Registered: Mar-07
Nuck, The reflection thing is just a fact of life for this room. Big hard wall behind the main front speakers. High mounted rear speakers.

I bought a digital optical cable and hooked it up from the Sony to the Denon AVR. Very noticeable difference with the AVR DAC. The music almost seemed to slow down and space was created between some of the instruments. Now I have more of the punch and crisp edge to each sound that I was looking for. Thanks.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6231
Registered: Dec-04
You betcha Wayne.
Maybe shop with your designer for some hangings on the great wall?
 

New member
Username: Avnovice

Post Number: 6
Registered: Mar-07
Oh yeah. My wife will love that comment.

Now I've got to talk her into believing that a center channel really doesn't look that bad.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawk

Highlands Ranch, CO USA

Post Number: 1233
Registered: Dec-03
Wayne:

When you do go for a center channel, get the LCR600 and not the LCR60. Although B+W offers both center channel speakers for the 600 range, there is a very noticeable difference in sound quality, not to mention the fact that the 600 blends so much better with your mains than does a 60. The 60 really should be used only with the DM600 and perhaps the DM601.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1244
Registered: Nov-05
Hawk speaks the truth. I concur. The LCR60 should only be used with the little baby B&W's, (as good as they are).
 

New member
Username: Avnovice

Post Number: 7
Registered: Mar-07
So how bad is the mismatch with the XTC?
 

New member
Username: Avnovice

Post Number: 8
Registered: Mar-07
http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20XTC
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