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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 416 Registered: Sep-04 | Hi me again - back to my old self. Not knitwear, but basic metal jumpers that interconnect across pre-amp/main-in on the back of most bridgable designs of integrated amp. First off, if you're one of those who has jumped your pre-out/main-in with an interconnect - what brand are you using and how have you found it to perform? I've heard the NAD C350 loves to wear silver... But I've ALSO heard that silver loses something over time - that's it's metallurgy is not optimum and that really, copper is the best material for overall conductivity. I've also learned that gold is used mainly for it's longevity - and not it's efficiency. A trade off, since copper oxidises and loses conductivity over time, anyway, unless suitably treated and insulated against the air. I'd thought about making up some short interconnects, using nylon cord, 'fine' silver wire and non-eutectic solder. Although I'm advised of the cost savings, I think this is rather complicated and probably will enjoy this all the more for just buying a ready made solution. So what say you, that have changed jumpers for I/Cs? Is Silver a good option or not? Is it great, but not worth the extra cost? Better to use a well-reviewed, balanced interconnect from a good manufacturer? Or should I try to get a pair of those purpose designed, little 3-inch silver jump-leads, I've seen somewhere before? I've used an Acoustic Research balanced interconnect before. It's rather long... Cheers, V |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 417 Registered: Sep-04 | Sorry - why in hell I can't just say: "Can you recommend a good value for money interconnect?" ..instead of typing all that crap, I really don't know! V |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1226 Registered: Nov-05 | Varney, fwiw I use Merlin Chopin interconnects (merlincables.com in your country) between my C162 preamp and C272 amp and Merlin Verdis between preamp and C542 and Denon 3910 and the result is a very smooth sound, with clean crisp highs, well controlled bass and three dimensional soundstage. Whatever you decide - try before you buy if you can. The Merlins are not that cheap but darn good imho! Cheers M.R. |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 418 Registered: Sep-04 | Very good advice, M.R. - except rarely can I try before buying. My hi-fi buying habits are always bargainous - a quality rarely found in establishments that allow auditioning. But hey... I like to live dangerously ;) V |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9900 Registered: May-04 | . What interconnects are you using between components? Why not use them here? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6089 Registered: Dec-04 | V/A, the interconnects are really the last word in intermodal function. If you use a decent cable, without getting esoteric or butt about it, you will be fine. The big$ cable sellers are meant for enthusiests withbig $ kits. Messing with cables for a standard setup is a fools game. Yes, I have cables, and, yes I paid. I would not spend a bunch on cales for a regular(although spectacular, I am sure) system. Ya know what I mean? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6090 Registered: Dec-04 | I would spend 800 bucks on a player or something else before coughing up the bucks for cable. Even Frank would agree that big cables on a small componant is worthless. Or worse! |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1224 Registered: Dec-03 | Varney: I personally like these: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/cab_pca_about.html A half meter pair is very reasonably priced. Check'em out. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6109 Registered: Dec-04 | Bluejeanscables.com |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 419 Registered: Sep-04 | Well, Jan, I've been using a mix of things, but the cables which I've had between pre-amp/main-in have been Acoustic Research balanced, and directional. No idea of the model number... But they are physically very tight, which makes me wince when I've had to remove them. I have a feeling this might be what damaged the old 3225PE (even though I practiced all due care, as much as possible). Since I've just purchased a new amp, I thought to look at improving the cabling, if necessary, over time. I'm still waiting for it to arrive. I hope it comes on Monday! V |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 420 Registered: Sep-04 | For some reason, I am finding what Nuck just said, to be the most beneficial advice. It's not a set up which runs into the thousands and represent, to most audiophiles, pretty bog-standard kit. I just wondered if it might be a good idea to try some very short, silver ones, just for this one connection. V |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 421 Registered: Sep-04 | For some reason, I am finding what Nuck just said, to be the most beneficial advice. It's not a set up which runs into the thousands and would most likely represent, to most audiophiles, pretty bog-standard kit. I just wondered if it might be a good idea to try some very short, silver ones, just for this one connection. The rationale being: Whatever cable upgrades I made in future, the results would show up, while eliminating any question about what the pre-out is jumped with. Does that make sense? V |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6120 Registered: Dec-04 | It does make sense to a degree, V. However different cables react differently, it is, without any ill-meaning, a basic setup. Basic upgrades to the cables are likely the most you will hear. Losing the box-stock molded red and whites is rule#1. I have a Zue single cable from transport to DAC, and found no difference from the Goertz anniversary that I tried, for instance. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1592 Registered: May-05 | Varney, If you recall a thread I started a while back, I wasn't the firmest believer in cables until I tried some good ones. I kept the Audioquest King Cobra interconnect (about $180 retail; got it for less than half price on closeout) for my humble NAD C320BEE/NAD 523 changer system and a made a solid improvement. It also proved to be a very synergystic match. Audioquest makes a much shorter version for little outlay (here in the States anyway, no idea what they'll get you for across the pond). It's silver plated copper, yadda yadda yadda. Basically the same wiring as the King Cobra. The connectors on the Audioquest ICs I tried were top quality and I didn't have to fight them to connect or disconnect. Here's a link from a retailer here. You should probably be able to find one in the UK - http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AAQFPS I haven't tried that specific one, but I did experiment with the interconnects the pre out/main in loop and I heard the pretty much the same things as when I used them between sources and the integrated amp. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6124 Registered: Dec-04 | Until Stu gets my sample cable, then it all goes out the window. Canada Post or the Great Pumpkin will get them there, Stu. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9905 Registered: May-04 | . " ... but the cables which I've had between pre-amp/main-in have been Acoustic Research balanced, and directional." Balanced? Marketing hype, my friend! If you have a RCA plug/jack on either end, you have an unbalanced connection and "balanced" cables are meaningless and can cause problems. "Directional" means little to nothing beneficial in most cases and certainly not when making a pre to power connection in an integrated amplifier. Everything (hopefully) is at the same ground potential and there is no reason to suspect any RFI with such a short cable. "But they are physically very tight, which makes me wince when I've had to remove them. I have a feeling this might be what damaged the old 3225PE (even though I practiced all due care, as much as possible)." "Tight"? I assume you mean the connectors. That is how any connector and certainly any RCA should be built. Air is a much better insulator than a conductor. It is the fault of the amplifier's manufacturer that a "tight" RCA plug damaged the jacks. While it is common for budget gear to use a less expensive panel board of RCA connectors with no more than bent tabs as the connection between jack and board, this is not beneficial to good sound or reliability in any way. Gold plated RCA jacks mounted on such a board is a common fault in lower priced gear and represents nothing more than audio jewelery used to entice the buyer while cutting significant corners. I would rather have individual bolt and nut type connections made with nickle plating over brass Switchcraft jacks than all those cheap gold plated connectors that degrade the sound. There's brass - and often nickel - under that gold anyway. While I understand your thinking, I would suggest you are going about this in the wrong direction. If you buy into the idea that cables sound different from cable to cable, you are likely to understand one of the reasons for this "difference" is the electrical impedance match the cable makes between output and input. A change in the capacitance or inductance of the cable will affect the sound quality in this circuit. (Now think about what alters capacitance and inductance in a cable.) For the most part this makes any cable subject to variable results when you use a preferred cable brand in a different application. Therefore, a cable that sounds good between a CD and a pre amp might not sound good between a pre and power amplifier due to impedance mismatches. Thus begins the crap shoot that is cable choice. Add to that fact the concept that choosing cables is similar to choosing a preferred Scotch or beer, it's all in the taste you like, and you've thrown any subjective cable recommendation into the crapper. Where it should stay. However, if I were speaking as a salesperson my recommendation would be to not worry about the pre to power connection at this point. Decide which cables suit your taste in system sound between other components. Do you want a cable that emphasizes soundstaging over bass extension? High frequency "detail" over depth? Speed over musicality? Make your decison on the major sound qualities you want from your system based upon the cables that have the most effect on your system. Those would be the cables between major sources and the cables with the longest length. (And no well designed cable should sound significantly different comparing one meter to ten meters.) Once you have determined the "sound" you want from the cable in that application, stick with the same brand and model for all connections. This should be the simplest route to success if you cannot audition cables before a purchase. This will lead to the most likely path toward a sympathetic agremeent between all cable effects in your system. At that point the connection between pre and power should be icing on the cake rather than a different recipe altogether. If the pre to power cable throws the system off, you can make adjustments with the most variable (source and length) cable in place. I can only warn you against hopping on a cable merry go 'round with the equipment you will own. Most cables will make the system sound different even at the price level of your system due to impedance effects but "different" is not correct. Cable choices should be made with priorities in mind and then, for the most part, left to sit and not to be stewed over trying to gain another tiny bit of information. There are too many options and too many variables to make cables more than an accessory to a good system. If you like what you've chosen in the past for the cable's sound quality, buy more of that cable. If you don't like what you own, the pre to power cable is not where to begin your search. If you are in a mishmash of cable brands right now, it's time to clarify what you want from your system. Silver can wait, get the basics right. And, it is not silver which will sound "bad", it is the construction of the silver cable that matters most. Finally, do not get involved in audio jewelery, which is what most cable and equipment manufacturers sell. Think simplicity and good connections. There are solid electrical reasons for not having huge, chunky RCA's and thick dielectrics. Remember, if the jack on your amplifier wasn't important enough for the manufacturer to spend a few more pennies for the real deal, what is a cosmetic approach to cable selection going to improve upon? "Makeup on a pig" come to mind? You would make a vastly more significant improvement, rather than just a difference, by soldering the connections with a short piece of hookup wire rather than spending money and brain power worrying about the pre to power amp jumper. As a matter of fact try it, you might like it. Simplicity! But if you take the cover off your integrated and see a row of jacks sitting on a panel board with bent tabs holding the jack in place, don't spend large sums on a cable to go between these pisspoor pieces of junk. Most cables are constructed to suit a system that requires removal and resinsertion of the cables and this is not necessarily the path to good sound. A RCA connector is the worst connection in the audio world and piling cosmetics on top of that fact is merely preying on the gullible. If you'll think about how the connection should be made in order to achieve the lowest noise and highest fidelity, I think you'll see my point. Most interconnects are junk which are sold at far too high a price. End of rant. I know my system is very unlike most of the other forum member's gear but presently my interconnects are very simple and cost me less than $5 to build. Obviously, I think they offer some of the best sound I've had from my gear and I've had what I consider to be fairly expensive cables in my system. That said, all cables are a trade off due to electrical parameters and taste. I await the audition of Nuck's eBay cables to make me change my mind about my $5 pieces of wire - but I'm not holding my breath. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9912 Registered: May-04 | . "You would make a vastly more significant improvement, rather than just a difference, by soldering the connections with a short piece of hookup wire rather than spending money and brain power worrying about the pre to power amp jumper. As a matter of fact try it, you might like it. Simplicity!" Damn, that's good advice. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6128 Registered: Dec-04 | yup. Solid wire or stranded, Vigne? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1230 Registered: Nov-05 | Varney, I really cannot impress upon you more than to try before you buy. The improvements I got with the cables between my pre and power amps and between my source(s) and amp caused me to spend the money. I was fortunate to have had the cables loaned to me for audition purposes. There are endless cable brands and many may be a complete waste of time and money. It's your ears and your cash. I spent what I never thought I would on cables and I got real benefits, and while a lot of the advice here may be sound in general, there can be exceptions as imho, I discovered for myself. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9917 Registered: May-04 | . "Solid wire or stranded, Vigne?" You need to ask? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6150 Registered: Dec-04 | Solid answer. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 286 Registered: May-06 | coat hangers are usually solid and inexpensive |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 287 Registered: May-06 | but then again so are bridge clips |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 422 Registered: Sep-04 | Well, I shall be back to comment on this. Jan - I can't thank you enough for your extensive, considerate and totally honest post. It puts everything I've been thinking about in perspective. Combined with what Stu and others have said, I'm very pleased with how, what I have learned, implies to my own budget and susceptibility to marketing hype. Thankyou! V |