MSRP vs Selling price

 

New member
Username: 8track

Post Number: 4
Registered: Feb-07
Are prices on new audiophile equipment negotiable? I ask because the totem dealer told me he could sell me Model 1's at 200 off MSRP. The Dynaudio guy quoted me the MSRP? Where was his "deal" or should I ask for it? FYI, I have purchased multiple things from the guy who is selling the Model 1s
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 392
Registered: Apr-06
There is no harm in asking for a discount; you just can't always count on it. Of course the question is which offers you the better value for the money, regardless of who is knocking off 200 from MSRP.

PS: Dealers do tend to treat their loyal customers well, hence probably why you were offered the discount.
 

Silver Member
Username: Eib_nation

Ohio EIBville

Post Number: 157
Registered: Jul-06
You should never pay more than 75-80% of MSRP.
 

Silver Member
Username: Davidpa

Portland, Oregon US

Post Number: 402
Registered: Nov-05
I would have to disagree w/your assesment Rush. High End gear will not be sold at 75-80% of retail. Middle of the road gear,and lower end probably somewhere around that. But I've yet to see higher end stuff be discounted anywhere near that much, maybe 10% if you have a solid relationship with the dealer, and even then it can be tough to get. Just what I've experienced anyway.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4144
Registered: Feb-05
I agree with David. I have very good relationships with several dealers and can count on 10%...no more. Occasionally if they are closing out a product and want to move it out the will do better...occasionally.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 5987
Registered: Dec-04
I agree also. 10% is the good dealership seal of approval.
The trade-ins, however are another matter. hehehe
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9845
Registered: May-04
.

Are you buying something because of the sound or because of the discount? Because of the price or because of the amount taken off the price? Buy what sounds best in your price range and pay what is asked. Whadda drive? Some kinda Chrysler product?
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 115
Registered: Nov-06
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Not a very definitive answer but I believe a true one. The markup on a high end piece of audio equipment is very very high relative to dealer invoice.

However, some of "the good stuff" is purchased at certain local chains/stores--some stuff is internet only; etc.

In anycase, I do recommend visiting the audiogon.com classifieds for very high end stuff as a price comparison to demos or used equipment, or even new stuff.Demos and used usually sell at 30-40% off retail but thats a mass generalization too.

Figure out what you want as far as product then comparison shop around a little bit. I have some stuff that I paid full retail for and some stuff considerably less. They are all in the same systems etc working and sounding just fine.
 

Silver Member
Username: Eib_nation

Ohio EIBville

Post Number: 158
Registered: Jul-06
Suggested retail is for suckers and naive shoppers.

If you possess any negotiation skills whatsoever, you will never pay more than 80% of 'suggested' retail.

Suggested retail is exactly what it's name implies.

Everything is negotiable! You just need to learn how to negotiate.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6003
Registered: Dec-04
Rush, how much wiggle room do you imagine a dealer has for, say, a pair of Revel Ultima speakers? Retail 18,000.
He has a demo pair and one new in boxes.
He had to upfront for the 2 sets, within 30 days.
Now how much room if he bought 5 sets?
Remember, he has to pay up front.
He may have had to finance the purchase of over 50k, or at least carry some cost for the investment. This is for ONE product, he may have 50 products.
The place has taxes, employees, and the like.

It's not like the guy just works out of his car, pickup for 50$ and deliver for 100$.

Economies of scale are vicious.
Support your local dealer! He may be a valuable asset at any time.
 

Silver Member
Username: Davidpa

Portland, Oregon US

Post Number: 405
Registered: Nov-05
Rush, I could only suggest getting to a hi fi dealer, and "deal away" on some quality gear. Try Bryston, Classe or Anthem for starters, move up from there, or like Nuck mentioned the Revel Ultimas. See what you can do with your negotiation skills, and let us know, I think you will find that it has nothing to do with negotiation skills, or for that matter how good of a relationship you have with a particular dealer. They've got a bottom dollar, and the percentage of profit on hi end, is not the same as low-mid fi gear which really doesnt even take negotiation skills to get a bigger percentage off. I personally own some pretty darn expensive speakers, had cash at the time, negotiated, got 10%. Same dealer, different product, 20% off, it really depends on what your getting discounted that ulitimately determines what you can get.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9850
Registered: May-04
.

"The markup on a high end piece of audio equipment is very very high relative to dealer invoice."


Forty per cent is high? Your grocer gets a higher per centage profit on a loaf of bread.


Once again, Rush, you live up to your namesake's audacity.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6008
Registered: Dec-04
Are you getting it Rush?
Get oughtta the box stores and into some quality. The price and the rewards, are not for the bashful.

Pay the man, Barney.(Fred Flintstone)
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 116
Registered: Nov-06
Jan-- A loaf of bread isnt 6800 dollars either. So 40% of a 1.29 loaf of bread isnt really a very reasonable analogy, don't ya think?

It's possible to find 40% off of retail on" the good stuff". I've done it a few times. I have also paid full retail too and never looked back.

I am not making a judgement on what a product is worth as an FYI. For instance, a pair of Green Mountain audio Pico Medeas looks pretty good at 6500 or whatever when a Bose special sauce 5.1 system goes for 1200.

It's more a matter of patience and reason, and sometimes packaging. I do think that, despite the pedestrain post, Rush is actually correct that on items 5000 and above, you can get 20% off depending on how you approach it with a higher end dealer. I have found this to be right at the bottom dollar in brick and mortar retail, but I have had to have alternative sources to buy from in hand to get at that 20% off of new product. It's just a game I suppose. Sorry just what I think.
 

Gold Member
Username: Arande2

400dB could probably d..., SouthWest Mi... Too Many DBs...

Post Number: 1647
Registered: Dec-06
dsjhfjfhdkjghdflkjghdflgjhdflkgjhdflkgjh Well I'm lucky to have immediate family which can sell it half price. sdfhsd;fgjhsdkl;gjhsdlk;fjghdflkgjh
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6022
Registered: Dec-04
Andre, what does your brother say about this?
What is the high end of stuff he carries?
 

Silver Member
Username: Polksavage

Post Number: 150
Registered: Jun-06
well put it this way for mark up. I work at a polk dealer and I paid $620 canadian for my pair of rti10's. so they have alot of room to bargain with you
 

Silver Member
Username: Polksavage

Post Number: 151
Registered: Jun-06
let me add tho that the electronics side the deals are WAYYYYY smaller. our mark up on some electronics is 10-12% total and that paying me to sell it too

example sony bravia $2000 retail our cost is $1850 right now
 

Silver Member
Username: Polksavage

Post Number: 152
Registered: Jun-06
most people selling higher end stuff are on commission and are willing to barter
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9860
Registered: May-04
.

"A loaf of bread isnt 6800 dollars either. So 40% of a 1.29 loaf of bread isnt really a very reasonable analogy, don't ya think?"


No, how many $1.29 loaves of bread does a store sell everyday? How many $6,800 pair of speakers do you think get loaded into a car everyday? In the end, profit margin is what keeps you in business. You can sell somethings cheap and make it up by selling lots of other stuff with higher margin (ala McDonald's and don't you ask for an extended warranty on most items?) but you can't sell at a loss and make it up on volume.


And Polk is not representative of high end profit margins. Not when they are always blowing out towers at $99 each. If your book cost is allowing less that 10% markup on a Sony TV, your book cost is being cooked. If you work for a big box store or sell mass merchandise (who doesn't sell Sony Bravia?), this isn't uncommon and keeps you, the salesperson, from even thinking about negotiating too low. TV's average about 20-25% margin and have a fair amount of dealer incentives to make things work. If a manufacturer pays for an advertisement or even part of an ad for their product, that ultimately comes off the cost of the item. How many ads have you seen in your local newspaper for a Conrad Johnson pre amp?



Most restricted distribution lines, read high end, are sold at or close to retail. Go negotiate a deal on McIntosh. If the line gets booted around in price, the dealer will more than likely have the product pulled. People want to know what an "authorized dealer", well it's a dealer who respects the wishes of the company. An "unauthorized dealer" is often the guy who sold at a discount more than once, got the line pulled and is now blowing out remaining stock. Some dealers are more willing to show a discount somewhere else in the deal but the retail price is likely to be very close to what you are paying for high end gear, negotiation skills or not. I have told more than one person to take their business elsewhere rather than risk loosing a line.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6028
Registered: Dec-04
Jan is long out of the selling biz, but loooong on the idea. It has not changed.
We are not dealing with volume here people, we are building relationships. If we, as a group of enthusiests, were to march, en masse, into a good store, with credit intact, then, yes, we could buy a number of Ultima's at a great price.
Delivery in 4-6 wks, if you are lucky.
For that type of delivery, the dealer would have to canvass other dealers to meet the demand, much as car dealers have to.
These deals would involve other trades as well, as the network works itself out, in a dizzying array of stunts and coy, to make it all happen.

All of this is presuming that you are going to a FOR REAL dealership.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6029
Registered: Dec-04
I don't beetch to my dealer and he don't stiff me.

Welcome to the jungle, we got fun and games:
We can get everything you want, honey we know the names:


My regular dealer also has strong ties to a Kickass service tech who has more scopes than Marcus Welby. Beat that!
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4164
Registered: Feb-05
One of my regular dealers IS an authorized service tech for the products that he carries...how's that!
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6030
Registered: Dec-04
How many ads have you seen in your local newspaper for a Conrad Johnson pre amp?

Bear in mind that I am referencing items that are not available at box stores.

OK, let's look at this.last month, I went to a buddy's place, he was putting a set of headers on his '73 Dart 340, and had all the pieces. With the engine up, we tried to fit the left side'over' pipe into the car. It don't fit.
So Buddy goes online with the 'vendor' who don't knows squat, and I got a car half apart.
Turns out a chrysler dealer in the next town has a set as well, and guarantees a fit, or bring 'em back.
They fit.
Specific over and under headers for that car.

Tell me that I ain't calling this guy for more Mopar!
When you deal with the good guy's you pay MONEY!

BTW, the Dart is running 11.5:1 comp, solid cam. Pistol Grip 4 spd., Dana 60 series posi and 3.88 gears. 13.10@106MPH.
It hooks up real good.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9862
Registered: May-04
.

And get's 10 M.P.G. of the expensive stuff. If he keeps his right foot in his lap.
 

Silver Member
Username: Serniter

Piscataway, New Jersey USA

Post Number: 125
Registered: Mar-06
Nice car.. 11.5 comp? I dont know much about earlier cars but isn't that high compression for a '73?
 

Gold Member
Username: Arande2

400dB could probably d..., SouthWest Mi... Too Many DBs...

Post Number: 1659
Registered: Dec-06
What do you mean what does he say about it? He uses a Pioneer Elite receiver, a Sony Plasma, some of the Studio series and a Seismic 12, and a Pioneer Elite Dvd Player. It's nothing special. He may have changed it by now. I'd say he saved ~$5k. Pretty good if you ask me.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6037
Registered: Dec-04
The block was a factory special, with webbed center's ,4 bolt through, the heads were W2's and were ezhaust ported to thinness!
Exhaust is a 1 3/4" through Flowmasters.
It grooves.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 117
Registered: Nov-06
Thes type of discussions are alwsy interesting. I don't begrudge hi end audio dealers a profit. But Jan pointed out the obvious; there is only a small, and frankly dwindling market for Mcintoshs/Krells etc, so a dealer must make a big profit on a single sale in order to stay afloat. So we agree on this actually. Thats the point. My point is that a customer doesnt have to elect to pay it in many7 instances if they are knowledgable.

Now lets look at the Revel Ultima Salons discussion. These speakers retail at 20,000 a pair. There are four pair I can have today at about 8500-9000 for each pair over at audiogon and there are pics and a sales track record to indicate they are like new. No waiting. Side by side with a new out of box pair ( after a 4-6 week wait?)-- blind listening will show no differences audible in all liklihood.

On the authorized vs non-authorized dealer; this is another area of controversy. Authorized dealer arrangements tend to be financially based in principle on propping up pricing and restricting access and trying to guarantee a certain sales volume to all parties as a way to stabilize economics so to speak for a mnaufacturer primarily and secondarily to an authorized reseller.

The problems come into play whern an authorized resller cant make quota/sales volume. Answer: Where do you think non-authorized dealers get their stuff from? They dont get it from the manufacturer of course. They get it from the authorized dealers. And those dealers are not selling to the grey market at a loss, but the consumer gets the product a lot cheaper. DO the math and figure it out. While there are permutations to the above story; the concept remains the same.

There are many manufacturers and distributors who question the survivability of high end audio due to many current factors. I agree that lots of really excellent equipment manufacturers will go by the wayside over time. I agree and unfortunately, having the better products is no gurantee of surviving at all. Many thing that the av123.com or ascendaudio or axiom audio approaches will survive and that the Meadowlark approach won't. ( whoops too late on that one).

Again, I am not begrudging anyone their money here; but theres a fairly wide markup in real dollars between full retail and dealer invoice. I deal with this every day of my life in some fairly high numbers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6039
Registered: Dec-04
Meadowlark Shearwater Hotrod's, 2000 for 2 years at a dealership here, they will rot there, too.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9864
Registered: May-04
.

"On the authorized vs non-authorized dealer; this is another area of controversy. Authorized dealer arrangements tend to be financially based in principle on propping up pricing and restricting access ... "


Do you seriously think someone tries to restrict access to $20,000 speakers?


This "propping up" pricing works to the client's advantage also. When you buy a high end product with limited distribution, you pay a set price. When you go to resell the product, everyone knows you paid that price. It's like buying a Honda that isn't sold to fleet companies or a Ford that is given away to fleet companies to make slaes numbers look good. Which has the better resale? You are looking at one aspect of pricing and not considering the whole picture. How much can you get for a year old Yamaha receiver? How much for a year old Audio Research? How much for a ten year old A.R. amp?


Dealers do not, on average, stay afloat by selling $20,000 speakers or $10,000 amplifiers. They stay afloat by selling lots of lower priced gear in between the big sales. For every Mac amplifier a dealer sells, thirty receivers will go out the door. For every pair of high end speakers sold, a couple dozen "average" sets will leave the shop. A dealer might not even stock a $10,00 amplifier other than the demo unit but there will be a dozen $300 CD players in the stock room.



.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 118
Registered: Nov-06
Thanks for the response Jan.

The fact that a 20,000 dollar pair of excellent Revel Ultima speakers can be had for 8500 in seemingly perfect condition would seem to debunk your theory regarding maintenance of resale value however.

With regards to resale values, Honda tends to hold its value because it's a better more reliable car, not based on a fleet contract or lack thereof. The era of the fleet contracts guaranteed a certain mediocrity among US Domestic brands BTW. Not having to be competitive was the real killer there. Nothing else.

Now lets talk about my meaning of restricted access. I would like to use Plasma Television brands as an obvious example. Fujitsu has "restricted access" Getting a grey market Fujitsu is almost impossible. Pioneer is another brand that uses an authorized reseller arrangment that is very tightly controlled, although you can purchase on the net. Fujitsu has no internet purchasing. Panasonic is open competition with no authorized reseller restricted access type situation ( You can use "controlled access" if you want).

Currently, Panasonic has the greatest market share by far and has the highest ratings of all plasmas. Their QA is near perfect ( they throw away defective ones right off the line). Their dead/stuck pixel return policy is liberal.

Pioneer has excellent displays and many prefer them over Panasonic too. Their QA isnt as good, and their dead/stuck pixel policy is more restrictive. Their pricing for a same size display is much higher than the ubiquitous Panasonic, and many fear they will get out of the Plasma business altogether if they dont turn a profit soon. They don't sell enough, despite a GREAT product.

Fujitsu is the most restrictive. AT one time they had far and away the best stuff out there. 5 years later, they have a minute market share, exorbitant pricing, and the rest of the field has caught them.

Depending on how authorized reseller arrangements are done, their presence can be quite restrictive, I assure you.

AS far as the selling of a bunch of little products and a few big ones, thats true to a point for sure. However, I see stores being able to carry less and less lines due to these anti-competitive arrangements. What I do see is higher end stores focusing on Home Theater installations as a profit center and basically installing packages to carry the few lines they do have.

Like I said, the whole reseller thing is going to make it tough for a lot of manufacturers to continue. Its already happening.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 119
Registered: Nov-06
Folks seemed to like the Kestrels and the Herons as far as Meadowlarks line. Thye still sell for reasonable dollars, but they are out of business. I never cared for the line myself, but lots of folks like them.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9871
Registered: May-04
.

"The fact that a 20,000 dollar pair of excellent Revel Ultima speakers can be had for 8500 in seemingly perfect condition would seem to debunk your theory regarding maintenance of resale value however."


I don't think so. First, anything is worth what someone is willing to pay and (almost) anything of value can be sold faster if it is sold cheaper. I would guess there are a few sellers surprised that someone else will let a pair of Revels go for that price. But it is difficult to bring the price up once it has gone down. You do have to stop and ask yourself, however, why there are so many used $20k speakers from one line available. Still, while Revel gets good press, a better known name with an established reputation for good quality will do a better job keeping resale price up. Check some Martin Logans, Theils or Wilsons, companies that have been around the block once or twice and treat their dealers well.


"With regards to resale values, Honda tends to hold its value because it's a better more reliable car, not based on a fleet contract or lack thereof. The era of the fleet contracts guaranteed a certain mediocrity among US Domestic brands BTW. Not having to be competitive was the real killer there. Nothing else."


I'm afraid most market analysts would disagree as much as I do about several of those statements. Everyone (but you) concedes fleets sales hurt used car prices. The facts that Honda does not offer rebates or incentives and does not have large fleet sales have long been cited as reasons contributing to Honda's higher resale value. The perceived value of the line is most apparent in its high return customer base, one of the best in the industry. Whether they build a better, more reliable car is increasingly in question as reliability of all cars has increased to the point Pontiac has on average fewer new car problems today than Nissan did five years ago. (Those who have read my comments know I have driven Hondas for thirty years and feel I owe my life to my '75 Civic. IMO they are one of the finest automotive lines on the market at any price. But saying fleet sales don't affect resale is simply whistling past the body shop.) In short, resale is ultimately affected by selling price. A new four door, automatic, four cylinder Accord LX sells for the same price the first day in hits the lot as the last day (with few dealer incentives to muck up the works). Not so a Ford, Chevy or Nissan.




I guess I don't understand how your TV examples support your ideas of restrictive trade. Earlier you stated, "Authorized dealer arrangements tend to be financially based in principle on propping up pricing and restricting access and trying to guarantee a certain sales volume to all parties as a way to stabilize economics so to speak for a mnaufacturer primarily and secondarily to an authorized reseller." It would seem your Fujitsu example actually makes the case that this is not true.



Is it possible Fujitsu has voluntarily left the consumer market for more lucrative sales elsewhere? Not always, but most often, a superior product will win out though not always in the discount driven consumer market. And, I'd seriously disagree with your assessment of Pioneer's "tightly controlled" dealer arrangements. Virtually any decent shop can and does sell Pioneer Elite today. That wasn't the case a decade ago.


"Depending on how authorized reseller arrangements are done, their presence can be quite restrictive, I assure you."


I've never, to my recollection, found myself in a situation where I was selling a product with good dealer commitments where I didn't feel it was a benefit to me not to have to compete with five other dealers selling the exact same product. If that is your idea of "restrictive", I think most good dealers would willingly go along with the way it works. There are always those that prefer to be less than good dealers.



I don't want everyone selling what I have worked hard to get, develop as a product line and keep. Ask any original B&O dealer how they feel about the company's policies today. I have sometimes wished for less restricitve policies when I needed another brand to close a sale but never the other way around. 99 times out of 100, "restrictive" trade policies work to the dealer's benefit. If the product is marketable, the manufacturer often can have their choice of several dealers in any one geographic area. I fail to see how "restrictive" trade benefits the manufacturer other than having a dedicated store which will work over time to build the line. Most often even established companies will want to get into an area or decent shop. Once in, dealer support is part of the two way street both parties walk.



"AS far as the selling of a bunch of little products and a few big ones, thats true to a point for sure. However, I see stores being able to carry less and less lines due to these anti-competitive arrangements. What I do see is higher end stores focusing on Home Theater installations as a profit center and basically installing packages to carry the few lines they do have."



Profit margin comes from all sources and it is the only thing that counts at the end of the month. If you continue to make the same profit on the same number of sales year after year, you're doing something wrong. And, as you might guess, I think your ideas of "anti-competitive arrangements" are being seen from a consumer's point of view and not a dealer's or manufacturer's.


While I agree that low ball used prices do not benefit any product line (see my references to fleet sales above), that is but one of the many reasons manufacturers and dealers are rethinking their markets. HT has altered the playing field as much as internet sales have. But dealers who are willing to work both sides of the coin can actually "carry" more lines while having less product in stock. That benefits no one either.




.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 120
Registered: Nov-06
Hmm. Intersting post Jan. I did actually read it through. I think there is some validity to some of the things that you are saying, but I obviously don't truely agree with a lot of it through your posts to be honest.

I do think that mark ups by dealers with authorized reseller arrangments and restricted product channels is very very high, and I do think these things can be negotiated in most instances.

I also see a lot of high end equipment manufacturers, particularly among speaker lines, going out of business over time as well.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9879
Registered: May-04
.

"I also see a lot of high end equipment manufacturers, particularly among speaker lines, going out of business over time as well."


That is the nature of the cottage industry that is most of high end audio. Far too many excellent designers have little to no real business skills. They can design a ciruit that will amaze even the most cynical EE but they can't balance a check book.


I still own a pair of Spica Angelus speakers designed by John Bau in the late 1980's. Spica has become a bit of a cult company because the designs were all well accepted and they had considerable commercial success for a small, hand built high end product and then they just disappeared from the market. Bau just simply closed shop one day saying he was tired of the gamesmanship that went on in the high end audio world and he had better things to do with his life.


I sold Superphon pre amps in the late '80's. Stan Warren, the founder of Superphon, was the last half of the original PS Audio company. The Superphon per amp was considered a superb product at a more than reasonable price - but it was unreliable due to pushing circuits beyond their limits to get the additional last bit of information. His suppliers stopped producing a critical part for the pre amp and his financial resources didn't allow him to continue. There are dozens of stories about why high end companies go bust.


I owned a Dayton Wright pre amp at one time. State of the art! The company was subject to a laundry list of embezzlement, stolen circuit designs, bankers/investors covering their own rear ends and hostile take overs which left Wright all but bankrupt and in massive debt before he finally called it quits after loosing control of his company.


None of these things had anything to do with dealer contracts other than dealers expecting to find support from a manufacturer who was not there when needed - for whatever reason. It is just the way the high end portion of the business operates and dealers face similar problems everyday. Opening a high end audio shop because you love the gear is about the dumbest idea in the world. Take that to the bank and try to get a loan!




"I do think that mark ups by dealers with authorized reseller arrangments and restricted product channels is very very high, and I do think these things can be negotiated in most instances."



Think what you like. Mark up on electronics and gear other than speakers averages 40%. Most speaker lines are 50%. Dealer incentives are floated by most companies once or twice a year and every now and then a manufacturer will sell off some "B" stock. It is not uncommon to find a dealer willing to blow out a product that has sat too long in the stock room (Revel speakers perhaps?). I don't know of any dealer in the current high end market who can afford to give away very much of that profit. Negotiate away! I did learn early on that you don't get what you don't ask for. But keep in mind that you want that dealer to be around in the future. That can't happen if you grind every penney from their profit.


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 121
Registered: Nov-06
Jan- Your post is interesting and informative. I like the revelations regarding your past experiences as well. Really.

I am wondering if certain lines tried a bit more wide open distribution channels, assuming they could get the access, if they wouldnt still be around. For instance, what if Foleys distributed Spica Angelus speakers in their electronics department? Would Spica Angelus still be around? There are many reasons to shoot down the possibility, but what I am getting at is availability and competitive pricing.

Folks pay some dollars for Bose setups and it seems those same dollars could be spent on better equipment and manufacturers would still be able to fly. The cottage industry/authorized reseller arragements really seem restrictive. Sorry--its just what I think.

Also, I personally dont try and squeeze pennies myself. But I am not hip to paying full retail for stuff either. Although I did for my Honda Civic Hybrid! hehe.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 397
Registered: Apr-06
"But I am not hip to paying full retail for stuff either."

What did you pay for your speakers versus their retail price?
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4190
Registered: Feb-05
"But keep in mind that you want that dealer to be around in the future. That can't happen if you grind every penney from their profit."

That's exactly why I'm willing to pay more at a locally owned dealer than at Magnolia. I negotiate at Magnolia and at the others I don't have to, they want me back as a customer and I want them to stay around, so the customary 10% is fine with me.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1213
Registered: Nov-05
If a dealer isn't happy to let a product go for an agreed price then so be it. Usually a price is negotiated between the customer and the dealer and both can part satisfied with the deal. No one is forcing a gun to either party's head, it's a take it or leave it situation for both, but a dealer who'll look after a returning customer well, will see that customer returning again and again. Like my dealer has. RRP here means recommended retail price which is usually set by the distributor and is really only price guide for intending buyers. Usually, it is good to make some profit rather than none - providing that profit is worth the trouble (which really only amounts to making an invoice and replacing the stock). I will always ask for a better price and in most cases get it. The person who never does will lose a lot of money in their lifetime.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6059
Registered: Dec-04
My dealer emailed me today, as I put him onto this thread.
Giving away taxes here is 14%, just dropped 1% from 15.

Also bear in mind currencies.
The Euro is good, the greenback i saverage and the Loonie is up considerably in the last 3 years, 1.5 in fact.
The lad has to buy a few sets to get a price, and be able and willing to sit one one set(one was sold, thus the order), store 1, and, what demo 1? Gotta do that, but the demo drops in price.
So he sells one and sits on, say 1 and a half.
The dollar rises fast, your profit is Ghandi.

BTW none of that was in the email from him. H just said that it's tough gig. Gotta be smart and QUICK.

Also the Ultima's were at 13k on the tag. My bad.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4191
Registered: Feb-05
Some profit rather than none doesn't pay the bills if you don't sell in volume. That's why I don't begrudge the small local dealer his/her profit as I want to do my part in helping them stay in business. I guess I see it as my responsibility as a consumer and hobbyist to do business as often as possible with folks who have our interests and our hobby in their heart. And all of us know those folks usually as soon as you meet them.

We have a fabulous new retailer in Eugene that sells only from their home and carry just a few hi end brands and Rega (ofcourse) and they have treated me very well. I didn't even buy my Apollo from them and they are taking care of the softeware issue and loaning me their demo (without my asking). I haven't bought a thing from them...do you think I will when given a chance...oh yes. Will I be happy to give them the money they deserve for the kind service they provide...oh yeah. This weekend I'm going down to see them and they are really excited about giving me a demo on a Roksan Radius...they know that I'm broke and can't afford anything but they are so excited about analog and vinyl that they can't wait to share it. That's the kind of service and enthusiasm that is worth more than you can calculate in dollars. Just my opinion. Sorry if every word is mispelled as I'm at work and in a hurry.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1214
Registered: Nov-05
Sorry, Art - some profit rather than none does indeed help pay the bills - even so, the dealer still has to calculate his costs into the equation. I'd rather get the best price instead of the next guy. Remember, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to make him do the deal. It's up to the dealer.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6062
Registered: Dec-04
But remember that we are dealing (I presume) with mid-fi and better stuff.
Y'all don't buy it at wall mart.
Or Canadian Tire.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4192
Registered: Feb-05
MR, If I pay part of the electric bill the power gets shut off, that doesn't help.

"It's up to the dealer."

It's really up to all of us. I'm not willing to abdicate my responsibility anymore that I would expect the dealer to. In the end if you prefer to barter or negotiate that's up to you and I am not saying that there is anything wrong with it. I will continue to chose to work with my dealer to benefit us both. Perhaps he'll stay in business and look forward to seeing me as well as providing the kind of service I have become accustomed to from my specialty audio dealers. Win/Win...I like that.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6069
Registered: Dec-04
Okay, so big box wins out.
Single dealers and some low level partnerships KACK and disappear.
Who replaces the guy in Squirreltown?
There are some good dealers in Squirreltown, Ontario.

Are we gonna see the box stores open a REAL high end shop, like Magnolia pretended upon it's inception?
Not likely. Low volume, just the way we like it.

I see ipod's AARRGGHH...IPODS, I TELL YOU!
BBLLLEEEEECCCHHHHH!!!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4193
Registered: Feb-05
Yep...
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 122
Registered: Nov-06
I look for guys like at underwoodhifi.com and their type of deals. This is not a plug BTW, just an example where you can score deals off of retail by quite a bit and still get into some really good equipment.

In answer to S Munz question, My mains in the good stuff room listed for 2200 and I paid 890 at the time in 2003 or early 2004.

On the flipside, I have a casual listening system in the living room with the oft-discussed AScend 170s. I paid full retail technically and had them custom finished to match a drum set ( yes my drums are set up in a living room and no I am not married).

My home theater speakers were all discounted by 50% or more but my subs were at "full retail".

My Class A amp was bought at about a 40% discount off of full retail but my CD player, which I had modified, was at full retail ( which has since gone up actually).

Just a matter of when what where and how...
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9881
Registered: May-04
.

"I am wondering if certain lines tried a bit more wide open distribution channels, assuming they could get the access, if they wouldnt still be around. For instance, what if Foleys distributed Spica Angelus speakers in their electronics department? Would Spica Angelus still be around?"


I'm not trying to insult you but you don't seem to catch on to many of the issues a high end manufacturer and dealer have to contend with. Looking at the last Spica product to be reviewed, http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1294spica/, there were 75 Spica dealers across the US. I don't know how many stores Foleys had at the time but it was more than 75. Spica sold every speaker they built and could have expanded slightly but it was more important to them to hand build a fine product at a reasonable cost. They could never supply a company such as Foleys and they wouldn't want to consider it. Foleys sold mass market stuff. While no Spica speaker was dificult to drive, each speaker was too revealing to be hooked up to a receiver and lined up with a dozen other speakers on a switch box and have display cabinets in between the rows of speakers. Spicas sold only when the salesperson wanted to sell Spica. Most Foleys customers are not looking for what a Spica could do and Spica could not do what it was capable of achieving when placed in a Foleys store set up. I sold at Dillards for a short time while waiting for another shop to open and I can't imagine trying to explain why Spicas looked the way they did and if the customer would only listen to the soundstaging, electrostatic like speed and timbral accuracy of the Angelus ...


Spica was meant to be Spica and to be sold against the very best not the very worst. It required knowledgeable salespeople who cared about the product and wanted to see the company and the client succeed. It required excellent electronics to give its best or else it revealed lousy electronics far too easily. Spica required high end dealer commitments and those commitments were not what killed Spica. Polk is meant to sell in Foleys.

.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1215
Registered: Nov-05
"But remember that we are dealing (I presume) with mid-fi and better stuff.
Y'all don't buy it at wall mart.
Or Canadian Tire."

I don't know what happens in Canada and the US, but here many brands associated with mid-fi and above are sold in some of the well known chain stores. Yamaha, for example once was only available only at certain hi-fi shops, same with Marantz, and a few others, now loyalty be dammed - into the chain stores they went and left their dealers hanging!

The hi-fi shops here, except for the odd one here and there get their bread and butter from HT are battling against the mass buying chain stores. If they aren't competitive it's goodbye. The deals done between myself and my dealer have always been to the advantage of us both. But I always try for the best deal, I cannot afford not to do so. And Art,I think it is quite different then a part payment of an electrical bill.

When I was selling in the retail business we always did the deal providing there was some profit left - otherwise it went to the opposition. Bartering has been around forever and always will be. It's called doing business.

When I was in my early twenties I bought hi-fi (lower end granted) from my hi-fi dealer.The twenty year olds today by car systems, ipod's, downloads and little lifestyle systems. IMHO, that's the main reason for the decline in the hi-fi industry and not a bit of bartering between the dealer and his customers. Then of course, there's Ebay and other on-line attractions.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 123
Registered: Nov-06
Hey Jan, you are not insulting me. And in fact I don't claim to know every twist and turn in each speaker/electronic arrangment/business. But I do know quite a bit. I wasn't suggesting Spica in speicifc but as a concept in general. Like you said, they aren't around anymore. SO we actually agree more than you may think. I am simply identifying a problem. That maintenance of restricted access and high pricing could lead to out of business financial difficulties quite easily. With regards to Spica not being meant for Foleys, my only comment is that that is somewhat close minded and,frankly, an arrogant pattern of thinking!

Thats EXACTLY why folks go out of business. I am suggesting that BMW cars (essentially) that might struggle as a brand, consider showing some humility rather than stomp their feet for an extra dollar and go out of business! I understand that there may not be enough speakers to go around in 5 million stores. My point is that by being in stores that are financially more stable, all of sudden the sphincter tone for a buck now decreases and the brand is more stable and more people get to hear the good stuff for a longer period of time. This in turn could turn more folks on to high end audio rather than Ipods--the high end audio industry is basically killin itself in a way....gotta think out of the box!!!

Give what I am saying some thought... The current model clearly isn't working! Not enough exposure to the good stuff as it is. Bad for high end audio.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 124
Registered: Nov-06
Hey Jan-- I shop at Foleys every once in awhile...and I would have enjoyed listening to speakers with you in a Dillards,, if they had good stuff like Spicas or whatever. And I would likely have appreciated what you would have been explaining too!
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4197
Registered: Feb-05
"The hi-fi shops here, except for the odd one here and there get their bread and butter from HT are battling against the mass buying chain stores."

You and I aren't even talking about the same thing MR. Very few of which meet your definition.

"And Art,I think it is quite different then a part payment of an electrical bill."

Yes, it really is that simple. I see families go into the fiscal drink all of the time. Same difference, not enough income to meet their obligations.

"Some" profit when your selling in volume might just do. "Some" profit when you sell very few pieces doesn't pay the bills.

You and I are not talking about the same thing MR. Perhaps you don't even have the types of specialty dealers that I'm talking there, I don't know.

"I am suggesting that BMW cars (essentially) that might struggle as a brand, consider showing some humility rather than stomp their feet for an extra dollar and go out of business!"

I think you missed the point. Spica was not being uppity and stomping their feet for an extra buck. They simply knew that their product would not compete side-by-side with the typical mass market dreck carried in most hifi chains especially using inferior sources and amplification.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9883
Registered: May-04
.

Spica and most other high end product lines have no desire to go into mass market shops for more reasons than stomping their feet and being stubborn. Yamaha did exactly what you are suggesting, Marc, and the entire product line suffered from the decision. When Yamaha first entered the US market they dealt only with specialty audio shops who were used to taking a well designed and constructed product line and building name recognition slowly over time. They did this by supporting the line wholeheartedly and expecting some loyalty in return. Actually, this is how Sony, Pioneer, Bose, Polk and Advent, to name a few, also began life many, many years ago. Do you think Bose was always sold in department stores?


As bean counters took control of design and marketing, the Yamaha brand was expanded to include a lower priced version which could sell in mass market and department stores. Original dealers were left with the prospect of selling against a line they had sitting on their shelves. How happy do you think that made them? Typically other lines were brought in to counter the department store Yamaha while often retaining Yamaha due to the very name recognition they had worked to promote and which had turned around and bit them in the bihind. Eventually Denon and Onkyo, the alternative-to-Yamaha lines, went the route of Yamaha's mass market line. You can still find most of these products in a high end store but only because there is currently no real alternative.


There is a large segment of the market who do not want "high end" product and find the idea of paying more than $129 for a DVD player that doubles as a CD player, a baby sitter and a cat warmer totally insane. They are interested in discount. They do not want to know about higher resolution and are not interested in paying for anything more than higher convenience. Most people (even those on this forum) do not listen to live music for their reference and most peple do not sit down to listen to music at home. So why pitch soundstage and timbre to them? They are happy to place their speakers where they fit and if that is behind the TV cabinet, that's fine with them. They're out of the way. And you want to pitch high end product to them while they're shopping for a new toaster oven?! With the toaster oven between the speakers?



How does it benefit a high end, low volume shop when it works to promote a line only to have a less than knowledgeable customer find that same line in a mass market retailer who you want to have selling at a discount? Mass market retailers do not "promote" unknown products, they buy established names and trade on the good will of others. Your business model would effectively kill off high end audio in a short time. I'm not understanding your concept of "restrictive dealer agreements".


Spica, Superphon and Dayton Wright could not produce the quality of product they did by producing more product than they did. You might have enjoyed having me explain the values of a Spica speaker while shopping at a Dillards but if I couldn't demonstrate the benefits of the Spica design, you more than likely would not have made a purchase. And Dillards is not goign to set up one room just to demonstrate Spica as any decent high end shop would do. From personal experience I can tell you people generally buy electronics from Dillards or Foleys - or wherever - either because they don't know there is anything better and don't want to be taught about anything better, they are in the mall already and/or because they have a credit card for that store. Had Spica wanted to become another Bose or Polk, they might have followed your business plan and they might still be in business today. I doubt John Bau would be in charge. If all high end companies followed that business plan however, everything would be reduced to a level of mediocrity and there would be no high end product. I'm not denying your plan's viability, only its capacity to remain high end and high volume. While I think Honda is a terrific car company, even they build their specialty cars in small factories and in small quantities. Maybe if they just put an NSX on the Ford dealer's lot?!



Everything seeks its own level and sh!t runs down hill - where the mass market stores await. Not everyone wants to wade through the stack systems, Polks and Boses of the mass market in order to find a better hifi. And department stores have limited display space also. Which would you have them get rid off in order to stock and display Rowland? Boomboxes or $39 a pair speakers? Which do you think they would pick? If you don't understand that Spica would not and could not have fit Best Buy's, or even Foley's, business plan, then I have nothing more to say to convice you.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9884
Registered: May-04
.

Marc, stand outside a Best Buy on a Saturday and ask people entering if they would even be interested in buying a $10,00 amplifier that they might hear as sounding "better" than their Pioneer receiver. Explain to them how it will sound better and how they will have to buy other similarly priced gear in order to allow the amp to operate as "better". Explain how the speakers can't be placed behind the TV cabinet. Then come back and we'll talk.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1217
Registered: Nov-05
Art, we are talking about the same thing. The shops here I am refering to sell low end to high brands, but I can't keep stomping the same ground with you. I rather sell something for something in return than not make a sale at all. It really boils down to the individual business person and it's his/her business acumen that decides if they stay in the black. I've been getting good deals and service from a couple of guys since the seventies - that's why I keep going back, and I get the good deals because I do. And they're still in business. But, enough from me.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4199
Registered: Feb-05
Even though there is some common ground in our conversation we really aren't talking about the same thing. The kind of shops I'm talking about don't carry "low end". I think we both have to take into account that the markets in our areas may be different.

I'm sorry that you seem to take any disagreement personally, it's not meant that way. We mostly agree with some areas of disagreement and that's ok. I am not taking the fact that we don't see eye-to-eye on this issue personally. Wish you wouldn't.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1218
Registered: Nov-05
I'm not taking anything personal Art. I just disagree with you about the effects of getting a good deal on audio gear. I said "enough from me" because we ain't gonna change each other's point of view and as a tactical retreat to prevent an aussie invasion into Albany, Oregon to remove the audio despot who is forcing up the world prices of componentry because he pays top dollar.[grin]
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4201
Registered: Feb-05
Oh no...please no invasion!
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6074
Registered: Dec-04
And then Canada would be drawn in as a Commonwealth country.























But we bring beer.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1222
Registered: Nov-05
Well, we'd probably need Canada to help, Nuck. One of our soldiers is on sick leave.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6079
Registered: Dec-04
Pity, in fact. One of our Navy ships went to help the lad.


Broke an oar.




Weeks in the docks.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4202
Registered: Feb-05
I'd take the beer...
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9891
Registered: May-04
.


A coalition of the swilling.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6080
Registered: Dec-04
hehehe
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1223
Registered: Nov-05
"I'd take the beer"

But you'd offer top dollar, Art!

 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 4203
Registered: Feb-05
I don't dicker at the supermarket...folks might think I'm cheap...

I'd stop shy of tipping (except the bottle).
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 125
Registered: Nov-06
Hello Jan. I actually don't have an interest in seeing Silverline sold in Best Buy, but the Foleys idea actually intrigues me. Folks spend a lot of money there and I dont se an issue with a more expensive audio option next to less expensive ones. Perhaps I dont view foleys as a discount store. Maybe Macys would be a better example. Or Nordstroms. Also, I am using Spica as a theoretical example. I don't anything about Spica speakers in reality.

I don't feel the current method of offering high end audio equipment is very good because the places that seel the very highe dn audio equipment arent financially stable, often change lines, or disappear. So I do think alternative solutions are worth dicussing. There isnt one right model BTW. It may be a hybrid of sorts. You are correct that Honda does not intend to compete in volume with Toyota FYI. I got that.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kano

BC Canada

Post Number: 1151
Registered: Oct-04
I think the point you're missing Marc is the demand for high end audio is very, very, low. No store except a specialty store will carry top end products simply because it will become a sales space issue with the amount of volume they would move.

There's a reason it's called a specialty store, it's selling a specialty product which very few people are interested in. Perhaps you believe that more exposure of these products would yield bigger sales. From my personal experience I disagree, the benefits between low to high end gear is completely lost to most people "it all sounds the same."

"Boutique" audio stores cater to the enthusiasts that will drive half a day to test out the gear. These are the types of people that will seek out these stores and stay up on their offerings without any advertising.

Maybe your right Marc, with the internet allowing these high end products to be more easily sold perhaps the small audio stores are doomed. The individual customer relationship will be sorely missed, where would one demo gear with quality electronics? Bring your gear into Best Buy and hook it all up?

I agree with Art, these stores need all the support we can give them. Cutting down their profit margin for a better deal should be reserved for the bigger stores who deal in mass quantity sales.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9901
Registered: May-04
.

"I don't feel the current method of offering high end audio equipment is very good because the places that seel the very highe dn audio equipment arent financially stable, often change lines, or disappear. So I do think alternative solutions are worth dicussing."



Restaraunts keep disappearing while McDonald's continues to open to franchises. Shall we suggest MickeyD's consider serving sea bass with capers and a side of grilled endive? In a styrofoam container? I guess you missed the part about John Bau closing down Spica due to the gamesmanship in high end audio. Any industry that appeals to 2% of the population, most of them highly nuerotic and opinionated, is likely to be unstable.


I've given you several reasons why taking high end audio into Foley's is not a workable idea. You've simply countered with you think it is.


Go for it, MS, explain in detail how a small, high end audio company with what amounts to hand built products relying on parts from other small speciality suppliers finds its way into a store such as Foley's and how Foley's makes way for such a line in order to make it profitable for all concerned. Please keep in mind a store such as Foley's draws the majority of its profit not from electronics but from clothing, shoes and housewares, items which appeal to a broad spectrum of clients. Also, as has been suggested, consider why high end audio shops are called "specialty stores" and what your plan would mean to the overall high end industry. Audio "specialists" have been dominated by the sort of business owners we typically call "Mom and Pop"; what does your plan do to them? What does it do to a new, even smaller high end company trying to find a foothold in the business?


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6091
Registered: Dec-04
L.L. Bean Audio
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6092
Registered: Dec-04
Ain't nobody outside of us lunatics gonna spend more than the bare minimum on audio. Period.
The market will not support the Mac's, Classe's and Naim's out there. (just a few naim's).
If joe schmoe brings home evena Denon high flying AVR for, say 3k , he's eating a frying pan, c'mon!
Now bring home a 3k amplifier, and whooo Nelly!, he be duckin' lamps!
A lot of the buyers are single, good earners, with partners of mixed gender, and an ear for the finer things.
You try to mass market that in the USA!
It might sell in Vermont...
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 1594
Registered: May-05
Here's a great one for you...

My father is good freinds with a local Apple Computer dealer (not the "Apple Store" in the mall). They send a lot of business back and forth to each other, and pretty much charge each other cost for their products/services.

My father wanted to buy two iPods for my brothers for Christmas last year. They sold them to my father at their cost - $2 off retail for each one. No joke.

Why waste your time selling a product that'll literally profit you $2 dollars a piece? They've sold almost 20 times more computers since the iPod came out. Everytime a new iPod model comes out, their computer sales sky rocket.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 9908
Registered: May-04
.

"Why waste your time selling a product that'll literally profit you $2 dollars a piece? They've sold almost 20 times more computers since the iPod came out. Everytime a new iPod model comes out, their computer sales sky rocket."


Yes, sir! I believe that is called market penetration and domination. Sell the hamburger cheap and make it up on the cola.



.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6134
Registered: Dec-04
You want fries with that?

I am in a different spot than some members right now.
I do not want this post to read ugly.
I can, and will pay for good stuff right now.
I have the $, and spend it when I see right.
A lot of posters here(and members) cannot do that right now, and are looking for an alternative to big dollar outlays.
See a dealer.
See a dealer and find out what little gems the dealer may have in the back.
I say 'in the back' with NY accent.
If you bypass a dealer for price alone, you might miss a jewel, just waiting for a dusting and a power connection.
Figgin' box stores do not have jewels, they have zirconium.
Get to a private dealer right away, and see what the blankets uncover, you WILL be surprised!
OK, it might not be a 63' split window coupe belonging to a son lost in Vietnam, but it MIGHT be a Classe kit on trade in.
Eat my shorts, BB!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 126
Registered: Nov-06
Kano-- Yes I agree that demand is low. WE agree on the problem. High end manufactures as a whole are not doing well.

Sorry if exposing this as a problem for discussion is upsetting to some.

We do however see some successful models. Axiom, Ascend, and av123.com have made products that are a cut above the usual fair and sell in large quantities. Now, granted their offerings are not in the league with the very best of the manufacturers. WE all know that. But they are all successful so we should ask " Why". They dont sell at Best Buy ( and I have not at anytime suggested Best Buy as a goal for high end audio).

But some of the folks involved with these companies and others believe that as it stands, high end audio is essentially dead man walking. To a large extent, I agree.

I am a firm believer that a great product can succeed given the right approach. Many of the high end manufacturers are not taking optimal approaches IMHO. And strict reseller arrangements and very high pricing won't sustain them in the long run whther it be by grey market sales to unauthorized dealers or straight competition and sales volume. Basically, restricting free trade tends to lose in the end.

IN any case, I have no issue in talking with speciality dealers and acquiring excellent equipment and have done so. ON the question of MSRP vs selling price, its usally possible to get a discount on ANY high end audio product with patience if one desires. There is no badge of honor for overpaying. Support a worthwhile charity of ones choice instead.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 6197
Registered: Dec-04
Marc, I don't see your thread as upsetting to anyone. Timely and poignant discussion is the reward for a purposeful post.
I had the drums in the livingroom for a while, too. It was frowned upon.

I have more questions on the viability of dealerships from an import point of view.
The ability of Asian manufacturers(OK, China) to export products at a loss, subsidized by Gov't and unfair trade practises, is a detriment to long established brands.
Will a dealer promote these brands, when direct ordering is available?
Nobody with a right mind would order a tube amp from some unknown maker, through unknown channels.
So I did.
Less than 300cdn brought the thing to my door, with no Customs surprises.
That's scary for a lot of dealers, not just the dollar value, but the exposure.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 127
Registered: Nov-06
Nuck- I just returned from China in January. Having spent quite a bit of time in their markets, I am wondering how you think they are exporting at a loss with government subsidies?

Their labor costs are essentially zero ( truely) and their material costs are fairly close to that as well. I am not aware of subsidies by the government for electronics, but I may not be clear on your meaning.

I do see some bare bones offerings however that are directed by American co-owners to maximize profits.

I get your point however. Same thing in furniture, another bloated price market thats been around for years about to get the smack down in the face of Chinese competition. The difference is, of course, that with high end electronics you actually do get something for your money; its just a matter of relative value.

There is a pair of Spica Angeles at audiogon.com for 399 a pair FYI. Listed 3/4.
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