Are there towers that do not need subwoofers?
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New member Username: Jps1010Post Number: 6 Registered: Feb-07 | I took the time and listened to both the Paradigms Monitor 11 series and the Monitor Audio Silver RS6 over this past weekend (these two were recommendations from the people on this forum, thanks for everyone's input). They both sounded really good (especially the Paradigm's) but both were missing that deep bass that I believe only comes from a subwoofer. The dealer didn't have the Monitor Audio RS8 but Im not too sure this would have made much of a difference. Does anyone know of any Tower speakers in this price range that do not need an external subwoofer for one to be able to enjoy rich deep bass from both music and movies alike? |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 664 Registered: Apr-04 | It would seem that most major brands do not add the colouration of extra bass in favour of a good dedicated subwoofer. I have expensive and wonderful JMLab Electra series speakers and even they and others at this price sometimes force me to use my sub to get that extra oooomph that I enjoy. Dedicated subs are much better than a floorstander that exagerates bass. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1185 Registered: Dec-03 | NHT Classic Fours. They have a 10" side firing woofer that will eliminate the need for a seperate sub when playing stereo: http://nhthifi.com/2006/s-s-classicfour.html Very nice sounding speakers, IMO. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 391 Registered: Nov-05 | I second Hawks assesment, but you could also get some NHT 2.9s, or 3.3s that do wonders in bass performance, seen a few on audiogon here just recently at about 700 for the 2.9s, and 1300 for the 3.3s. Tough to beat really. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9814 Registered: May-04 | . The Monitor 11's are spec'd to 42Hz and the RS6 is claimed to extend to 38Hz. Assuming both those numbers are in anechoic chambers you should have bass response down in the low to mid 30Hz range in a typical listening room - not a dealer's showroom. With only a few instruments possessing the ability to play anything lower than 40Hz and that frequency range in any instrument rarely having music composed for its inclusion, what were you listening to that made you miss the really deep bass? Are you looking for deeper bass or more bass? If the former, what will you be listening to that includes that information? If the latter, why ask - buy a sub and crank it up! . |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 265 Registered: May-06 | Anthony Gallo Ref. 3.1s has a second coil in its woofer powered by its own Anthony Gallo Sub Amp through the second binding posts. The first coil in the woofer is powered your main amp which connects to the first binding post and is for full range. I only had the sub amp working correctly for the past week or two and it gets down to 22 hz. It also sounds more musical being part of the floor standing speaker than any separate sub speaker combination that I have heard. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2400dB could probably d..., SouthWest Mi... Too Many DBs... Post Number: 1603 Registered: Dec-06 | If you like your deep bass and you like it loud, there is a pair of speakers than can do it. They cost 50k each though. At least it's 4 18s inside of them pumping it out. In fact, you don't even have to bi-amp them. Of course, it's recommended. |
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Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 93 Registered: Mar-06 | What did you like about the M11 and the RS6; was it the OVERALL BALANCE and presentation of Treble thru Mids to Bass; was it the Soundstage, depth and clarity? If you liked the speaks - they sounded really good - guess what, if you add a subwoofer, you will be compromising the inherent value of the engineered design of the speakers because, as J.V. stated, they already probably go to 35hz depending on room acoustics and placement. The point is you will be ruining the engineered balance of those speakers with a subwoofer with the exception being lower bass response probably less than 35hz which is pipe organ or synthetic bass (e.g., jazz fusion, techno or hip-hop). If you want overly dynamic bass, that's your call, reinforce the bass with a subwoofer and go for it. You will be changing the innate balance of the the floorstanding speakers that you already like. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1190 Registered: Nov-05 | A separate active sub will deliver those house shaking effects for action movie buffs, but a pair of towers like the Spendor S9e will deliver low bass for music and movies extremely well (or so I have heard). Their frequency range gets down to about 28hz at -6bd according to their specs. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9819 Registered: May-04 | . I don't think you will necessarily compromise the integrity of anything if you choose correctly and intelligently. But you can't just stuff any old subwoofer with a well designed full range speaker and make the system work together without some vry clear ideas about what you are hearing and what needs to happen to make the system coalesce. Jimmy, I don't know you from diddly but I'm going to make an assumption about you. I am guessing you don't have a clue what really deep bass sounds like and the only reference you have for "bass" is either your car stereo or the last rock concert you attended. Neither of which probably managed really deep, rich bass response. You see, most people hear 60Hz and think that's really deep bass. When it obviously is not all that deep, there are at least the better part of two full octaves beneath 60Hz that we can hear. But, if that 60Hz is really loud, the way the human hearing apparatus works, you will assume the frequency is getting lower as the volume is getting louder. That's all part of the Doppler effect and it is just the way we all hear bass. Most speaker designers know how to exploit this tendency in our hearing to sell their product. In a well designed speaker such as the BBC's LS3/5a this tendency became famous when a bump in the midbass made a shoebox sized speaker appear to have deeper bass than it could really manage. In most cheaply designed audio gear "one note bass" is the designer's way of making you think the speaker has deep bass when it actually can't put out much really deep bass (beyond 60Hz in all likelyhood) at all. But the cheaply designed speaker plays what it can produce at a high level compared to the midbass and most people with no idea what really deep, rich bass sounds like will nod their head and think the speaker is really cranking. Crimmeny!, that's how 75% of all subwoofers are sold, for Pete's sake! Now, Jimmy, if you have no idea what deep bass sounds like, I am wondering how you made the determination the speakers you heard were lacking in the very stuff they don't usually have to reproduce. If you listened to rock music, there's not much deep bass there. 42Hz is the bottom of a bass guitar. Either of the speakers you listened to should manage that. Other types of music can go lower than 42Hz, but, as I said, there isn't much music written for the lowest registers of the instrumental scale. However, even if the music descended beyond 42Hz, most speakers will "double" the lowest frequency they are fed and you'll still hear what most listeners would consider to be "deep bass". If that's the case, either speaker you auditioned still should have satisfied you with the ability to reproduce low (enough) bass notes. Keep in mind once you get the speakers home and they are not playing in a room with a dozen or more other speakers, you will hear deeper bass than in the showroom. So, possibly, you need to reconsider what you actually heard the other day. On the other hand, possibly you were not impressed by the specs for the speakers you auditioned. In that case, my best advice is not to look at the spec sheet. Quite honestly, speaker specifications are absolutely worthless for 98% of what they tell you. Don't worry about the numbers on paper and just listen to the music. I know it's hard to forget your speakers only go down to 38Hz on paper in an anechoic chamber, but try. Or, possibly you were auditioning with a movie soundtrack. In that case, you really should have a subwoofer, if explosions and car wrecks are how you judge deep bass response. You said it yourself, you think really deep bass comes only from a subwoofer. So, why are you asking us to disagree with you? We're a persnickety lot but mostly we like to agree with people. If you feel the speakers just didn't produce enough deep bass, which is what most people mean when they say the speaker doesn't produce deep enough bass, then you still need a subwoofer. You can crank the gain up on a sub and have whatever amount of bass you prefer. But it will require a fairly expensive sub to let you know the difference in the lowest octaves of a Bosendorfer rather than a Steinway piano. That's my idea of really deep rich bass. I don't know what your idea amounts to. Do you listen to music with bass that is consistently lower than about 35Hz? If so, what? And, what is your reference for this sort of really deep bass? Have you heard this sort of bass response in a live performance? Do you play an instrument that has this sort of bass response? Do you regularly hear intruments that produce this sort of deep bass response? How do you judge what's "deep" and "rich" and not just loud and not very deep or rich? How much are you willing to pay for the bass response you want? Paradigm and MA are pretty mainstream produts. What makes you think there is a "better" speaker out there for deep, rich bass response? Would you go out and buy it if someone here said such and such a speaker does deep bass even if you couldn't audition the speaker before hand? If not, what can you audition beyond what you've already heard? There's no point in our recommending speakers you won't buy. Don't get me wrong here, Jimmy. I'm not picking on you but you have to tell us more about what you want beyond just "deep, rich bass". We all want that but many of us realize how difficult and expensive it is to do well. Possibly, if you tell us how you judge deep bass - what is your reference for deep, rich bass and what will you be listening to that will require this quality of bass discrimination - we can better help you instead of just naming speakers we like. . |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2400dB could probably d..., SouthWest Mi... Too Many DBs... Post Number: 1616 Registered: Dec-06 | I'm really getting hooked to this infinite baffle subwoofer. The more I read, the more I like it.  They say it sounds *real*. I don't know because I haven't heard it though. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9821 Registered: May-04 | . Oh, Andre! |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2400dB could probably d..., SouthWest Mi... Too Many DBs... Post Number: 1618 Registered: Dec-06 | What are you inferring? |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgPost Number: 290 Registered: Nov-06 |  |
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New member Username: Jps1010Post Number: 7 Registered: Feb-07 | Jan you are correct, you don't know me from diddly. However, your assumption of my knowledge of speakers was fairly close (I never went to a Rock Concert or plan on going to one anytime soon). With that in mind your first explanation would have been more than sufficient. To go on and write as much as you did nearly became a rant instead of a reply to a thread. I'm sure you already know not everyone on here is an expert in acoustics or wants to be one. I use this site for some direction which it most certainly has given me. For example, before learning of this site I never knew of the Paradigm brand. I do understand for you or any of the others to correctly answer the question I have brought forth you need to know specifics. I understand this because I work as a systems analyst and the failure to mention all the facts can result in an incorrect response. But when you are dealing with a beginner as you have guessed, we do not know all the facts or know the right questions to ask. But by asking questions and getting responses most people are able to learn from that as well now know where else to look. Your 2nd reply went in to far more detail than any beginner would care to know and in some cases even understand. A response such as that would be similar the following example; I have been fishing since I was 4 years old. If someone who has never fished before (or has little knowledge) asked me how to catch fish without using bait I would tell them a few artificial lures to buy. I would not go in to much more detail than that. For those of you that are avid fishermen you know that the size, weight, color, time of day, retrieval speed, time of year, etc. can all be determining factors whether or not you go home empty. I am not trying to compare the two but simply put most things out there can be made more complicated than need be. I understand and now have a better understanding of "deep bass" from your reply. But I can see some people getting turned off to responses such as the one I received from you. I understand you weren't trying to pick on me but you definitely need to work on your approach if that is not your intention. I believe a forum such as this should be used by anyone that wants to share ideas, ask questions, find out about new technologies, etc and not have to worry about what kind of response they may receive if their questions aren't believed to be adequate. |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 154 Registered: Jul-06 | It depends on how you intend to use the towers. If it's primarily for music, then you can probably get away with some of the above recommendations. If you intend to use them for movies, then no way. No loudspeaker can do the job unless you intend to spend $100k for a pair of fronts. The irony is that if you had a budget large enough to incorporate such speakers, you would definitely also be integrating several subwoofers into your system to accompany them. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgPost Number: 302 Registered: Nov-06 | Jimmy, Jan is one of our more knowledgable members, and his opinions are highly reguarded around here. His post wsa truthful and honest, nothing was offputting about it. Posts like that are how you REALLY learn about audio, and the proper reproduction of it. Isn't that what we are all here to learn about |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgPost Number: 303 Registered: Nov-06 | *His post was truthful.... I agree with Art. Where's the edit? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9831 Registered: May-04 | . Well, Jimmy, you now have a better understanding of deep bass from my response. And you now better understand how to ask a question regarding bass response. Did you get that from a suggestion to just go buy a pair of Spendor's or NHT's? Apparently not. If you did, ignore my comments and buy a speaker based on someone else's opinion of what you need. And possibly go home empty handed. If you now understand deep bass more completely due to my response, the purpose of my reply was served. Please keep in mind you are not the only person reading my replies and I write to provide information to all levels of reader. If one of my replies tweaks your curiousity, then all the better. I have made you expand your knowledge. If you don't understand something I post, the way the forum works, you get to ask another question. If you now know what questions to ask, I assume that didn't come from a reply which merely suggested you buy a speaker someone else likes. I too believe this forum should be used by anyone who wishes to ask questions, share information and yadayada ... without having to worry. If you worry about how your questions will be received, you are asking only for someone to say, "Go buy this." Sorry I intruded. However, if you are worried by my response, I have to think that is your problem and not mine. I taught you (and possibly someone else) something you didn't know until I pointed it out, or, at least, I did so according to what you say. If that worries you, how is it my problem when I was successful at what I attempted to accomplish? This forum has a wide variety of knowledgeable folks residing here. I assume you can pick and choose whichever respondent you prefer. However, I fail to see why teaching a man how to fish is worrisome while handing a man a dead fish is not. You now know what questions to ask and how better to ask the questions. Go ahead. If my replies bother you, don't read them. They are all clearly marked with my name at the top. I seldom make product recommendations anyway for obvious reasons. And, yes, I've been called an arrogant @ss before now. My question is, which reply taught you more about resolving your initial problem? Your welcome. . |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 409 Registered: Apr-06 | What about the athena f2.2s??? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5969 Registered: Dec-04 | Bosendorfer's for $200, Alex. Jimmy, JV is just a being here, a voice of technical and musical knowledge with a growl like an Old Dawg with a belly ache. A bit wordy at times,noone really knows the typing speed, there are rumours. And sense of humour at times. Always honest in opinion. I wanna see the new Polk line, coming soon. |
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Silver Member Username: Jingka99Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur Malaysia Post Number: 118 Registered: Aug-06 | I agree with Nuck "musical knowledge with a growl like an Old Dawg with a belly ache" It always takes me some extra time reading Jan's responses, I am slow a bit in understanding as I am quite new in this...but as always, Jan's replies are very substantial and informative...I have no idea how long he's been around, i dare not ask, but I say, it must be quite long.... |
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Silver Member Username: Jingka99Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur Malaysia Post Number: 119 Registered: Aug-06 | " I understand you weren't trying to pick on me but you definitely need to work on your approach if that is not your intention." Let's be thankful that this guy is around to provide us more insights rather than ask him to change his approach...It's the information he is sharing that counts and not the way it is given... |
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New member Username: Jps1010Post Number: 8 Registered: Feb-07 | Very simply put all I wanted to know was if anyone had any suggestions on makes/models of tower speakers that go deep enough where a sub woofer might not necessarily be needed. It is apparent that I am new to this and a sufficient response would be a few makes in my price range that I could listen to for myself since there are many different brands out there. The suggestion to listen NHT and Spendor was really what I was looking for. I have never heard of Spendor before but did see them for the 1st time when I listened to both the Monitor Audio and Paradigm models. When I go back I plan on listening to those as well. I am not too concerned with how deep, high or sideways something goes. After all it's not the specs that make the final decisions but instead your ears. It's not about not reading your responses it's about responding to a rant that was made to my thread. It almost sounds like my lack on knowledge frustrated you and you couldn't believe what you were reading. If that the case that's not my problem, its yours. Jan, I am surprised that with all the assumptions you had made about me, the most important one you couldn't get right. A dead fish this is not. I have already spent way too much time even entertaining this. You have lost me a long time ago. Say what you will but at this point it's going to fall on blind eyes... PS-thank you to the ones who have offered their suggestions |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgPost Number: 308 Registered: Nov-06 | Jimmy... I agree with Jan that you may be confusing deep bass with loud bass. In that case, you will never find a speaker that meets your needs unless the bass is not really flat (Cerwin Vega anyone?) In this case, I recommend auditioning a good quality pair of speakers, be it monitor OR tower, and suppliment them with a good quality subwoofer. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9836 Registered: May-04 | . It is a personal rant which must be unleashed from time to time. Go fish. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1147 Registered: Oct-04 | Jimmy, What may seem like a simple question to you, is not so simple to some one used to the compromises and deficiencies present in audio gear. You want a floorstander with a built in subwoofer. But we must ask why? Do you seek cohesion in the presentation through the low end of sound reproduction? Bass has no timbre, so having a dedicated sub will usually yeild an overall better sound than a floorstander with either a built in powered sub, or one with the ability to play low that usually requires a better quality amplifier. That said, a full range speaker offers it's own set of benefits, but usually at a cost to other areas of its output. If you want a list of speakers do a goole search for "full range speaker" or "speaker with enclosed sub." If you want guidance to attain the best system for YOUR specific needs, post a question in an audio forum. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1172 Registered: Nov-04 | def tech super towers!! |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth ... Post Number: 2996 Registered: May-05 | JBL 4642 custom array that is installed at the Empire Leicester square as frequency response down to 22Hz yet sub bass is still required, if you want to play the subwoofer track, or LFE.1. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth ... Post Number: 2997 Registered: May-05 | Oh one more thing you should be using matching towers left centre right no excuses there is no dispute over this these are the facts, voicing frequency response power handling and that it matching fronts anything less is a waste of money and time!!!!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 51 Registered: Nov-04 | Well Jimmy you can do what I do and that is follow Jan around and point out the mistakes that he makes! I have no life and my world revolves around the ecoustics forums, oh, I guess that is my life. Lowest registers presented in most modern music? Low E you say! I say D! 36.71hz Where have you been for the onslaught of musical genius from Nickleback, Sum 41, Pink? And where has Jan been for the advent of the five string bass with the added B? I think he has spent more time learning how to type quickly. ONLY PART THAT NEEDS TO BE READ - In Jimmy's price range. Used Polk Lsi25's! With a power amp big enough to add $20 a month to your electricity bill! Speakers under $1000, power amp (Crown only) $1000, being able to have Jan hear your system from the next state priceless! -- ONLY PART THAT NEEDS TO BE READ Having used Paradigms before, and having heard the towers also, they have a great "hi-fi" sound, but are not the most articulate speakers out there. If you want reproduction at that price you need to go with bookshelf speakers and a sub. But then you need good stands! Aw screw it where is my Bose system? It does not seem to care about placement or location, and screw those charts they don't mean anything! TMO Out |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9847 Registered: May-04 | . Four CD's from Nickleback, four from Sum 41 and eight from Pink. This is an onslaught?! Look out Elvis!!! Go fish. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9852 Registered: May-04 | . Jimmy - If you are out shopping today, listen to speakers with a -12dB per octave rolloff in the lowest bass regions rather than those with -24dB roll out. I'd go into more detail but obviously you're happy with an artificial lure and no further explanations. |
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