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Bronze Member Username: ElevenPittsburgh, PA USA Post Number: 53 Registered: Nov-06 | Hi everyone, I currently have an Outlaw 990 preamp, B&K 200.7 (200 watts X 7 channels) amplifier, a 350-watt HSU VTF3-MK3 sub, plus assorted other equipment (DVD, CD, TV, cable box, etc). The amp is powering a 7 channel system, either Ascend or Aperion (still auditioning). At present I have only a surge protector power strip (plus whole-house surge protection), no power conditioner (yet). All of this is currently connected to multiple receptacles on one 15-amp circuit, with no problems yet. No ground loop hum or anything. I am planning on having my electrician install a separate 20-amp circuit for the amplifier. I was figuring on plugging everything else into the existing 15-amp circuit receptacles. Does anyone have any alternative recommendations for this? For example, is there any reason to also plug the sub, or the preamp, or anything else into the new circuit? Other ideas? Thanks... |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 362 Registered: Nov-05 | I'd use the new circuit for the sub as well, they tend to draw some juice. I recently had some 30amp circuits installed for all my power amps, and subs. I would think your fine with the 15amp , but if your already having work done, why not just be able to have all your dedicated power (20amp) circuits power the beef in the system? |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA USA Post Number: 1344 Registered: Mar-05 | I am thinking of putting this on the end of my dedicated circuit. http://www.psaudio.com/cart/ProductDisplay.asp?productID=106 |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 507 Registered: Feb-05 | You should be OK GC if your whole house surge protector also protects your cab/sat and phone lines. If not then you should definately consider some type of protection for these lines as they are even more susceptible to problems than your electrical lines. Keep in mind also that a whole-house surge protection will limit current to safe levels,hopefully in a major surge condition, but will not improve the quality of power delivery to each circuit in the wiring of your home. With a system this nice it would not be unreasonable,at least to me to buy a good line conditioner at least for the circuit that feeds your audio system. You should be ok with the 15A circuit. While the B&K is rated for a maximum current draw of 17.5 amps,this was produced in a lab and will never happen in your home. You would likely blow the user replaceable fuse in the unit or trip the circuit breaker for this amount of current would be supplied from the outlet,not to mention that the amp would be heavily clipping. While it is true that an amp this powerful could probably cause a voltage sag from the outlet you would very much be at clipping levels for this to happen.Some very powerful amps are rated by a manufacturer to be used in a 20A circuit,only in this case a 20A circuit would be necessary. A 30A circuit for a home audio system is WAY overkill! Your average clothes dryer at 5500W which is connected to a 220V 30A circuit will only draw a maximum current of about 24A. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5600 Registered: Dec-04 | A 15A circuit is run in 14g wire. When drawing 14.5A, depending on the length of the run, you voltage can drop up to the rated 10% variance. This is bad. A heavy circuit for a very powerful amp should be in 12g(or better), so long as the connections and outlet devices are rated for this gauge of wire, and the amp does not really require any protection other than a proper fuse. The transformer of the amp is a big heavy beastie, and is fairly immune to noise. The other stuff will fit on one 15A circuit, with whatever protection you find appropriate. As for running it ALL on one circuit, well, yes, you have a single fuse to protect the wiring from overheating, but not for the load. Imagine having your gear rolling at a good boil and having fun, then opening a fuse and shutting EVERYTHING down with a slam! OUCH! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1890 Registered: Sep-04 | The reason you don't get any earth loops is the very fact that you've plugged them all into the same power strip. This should earth all the appliances to the same (or very close) point. If you introduce a new earth point via a separate circuit, you could actually get an earth loop! There are some who advocate the multiple spur solution that you are considering and others who disagree with it for exactly the reason I ahve just given. If you go ahead with the solution, don't restrict yourself to a 20-amp solution. You might as well get a beefier spur. Although there does not seem to be a good reason for this, the higher rating does seem to work favourably in the context of HiFi systems. A 32 amp spur is not unusual in the UK (specifically because it's the same circuit type and installation as a cooker). Personally, I'm a believer in the single spur solution for the whole system. However, I can see the potential benefits of the multiple spur solution when big power amps are involved, and provided the earthing question is resolved before the spurs are put in! Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1891 Registered: Sep-04 | I'm also not a believeer in surge protection of any kind, mains conditioning or anything like that, the reason being that amps need instantaneous and appreciable current draws which surge protectors and mains conditionaers cannot deliver. I have tried many good solutions of this type (but not some of the best admittedly) and the system always sounded better (more involving, generally) without them in place. That said, if you are at risk of electrical storms etc., you have little choice. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA USA Post Number: 1347 Registered: Mar-05 | I believe (being that I grew up in England) that the power coming into our homes here in the states is less regulated and "dirty" compared to the UK. That being said, there any too many cheap conditioners for the purists out there that do constrain power. PS, from what people have said , seems to not be one of those. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5601 Registered: Dec-04 | Bond the grounds of these boxes together and bond that lead to a good earth. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 508 Registered: Feb-05 | As I've stated before you cannot earth ground individual outlets here in the U.S. This is prohibited by NEC code which is the main governing body with application to residential electrical installations. It is prohibited because it would defeat the whole purpose of a grounded system which is to send excessive current in the event of a fault condition back to the main in where it can be safely dumped into the service ground. I'm not familar with UK electrical codes but I imagine it would not be allowed on a properly grounded system either. A 30A circuit for an audio system is overkill. No it would not be a fire hazard but quite unecessary. Power amplifiers are designed to work with a maximum current draw which cannot exceed that which can be provided. This would be against electronic design engineering principles which mandate that for a product to be approved for sale and meet various safety ratings such as UL etc.,it must work within the confines of the voltage and current available as per outlet in the country in which it is sold. Typically it will operate with a maximum consumption of 10-20% less than it's stated maximum power consumption for an extra measure of safety. The B&K amp has a maximum power consumption of 1830W and a maximum current draw of 17.5A, but a user replaceable fuse that will blow if the current draw exceeds 15A which reveals that,don't get me wrong this is a very fine amplifier,that B&K has inflated this maximum current draw spec of 17.5A. This would make sense then because this would be within 10-20% of it's maximum at 15A. If this amp were to be used in the UK which operates with 220V outlet power it's maximum current draw would be roughly halved. So then if this amp were a UK model it's maximum current draw could not exceed 8.3A under any circumstance(1830/220)-no fancy math here simple Ohms law. Connecting this amp to a 30A circuit while not harmful would be absurd since it's maximum current consumption will not be anywhere close to 30A. A 20A outlet for this amp certainly would not hurt either but would be unnecessary since from the illustration on the website the amp(US model) has a 15A rated power cord. IF it had a 20A cord where one of the blades of the plug is turned 90deg from the opposite blade then a 20A outlet would be required,I don't think this is the case here. There seems to be quite a misconception about surge protectors so I will try to clarify. Surge protectors ,be they whole-house or for individual power outlets DO NOT limit available current within normal working limits. In other words a typical surge protector used in the US for example rated at 110-120V,15A,1500W will provide every Watt and Amp of this without limitation so long as the connected device stays within this limit. Surge protectors never limit current and power draw within safe working limits, their function is quite the opposite of this,they limit current under catastrophic conditions when transient spikes of several hundred volts and hundreds to many thousands of amps infiltrate a homes electrical system. Most surge protectors don't begin to clamp until a voltage of about 330V is reached with current of several thousand amps. It follows then that it would be impossible for an amps performance to be limited by a surge protector since the amp by the nature of it's design cannot draw more than the outlet can provide. Most electronic equipment used here in the US can safely be operated at about 85-140VAC anyway. Unless you live in a big city most catasrophic power surges not as a result of lightning activity are fairly rare. The greatest danger to electronic equipment is the constant small scale,short duration surges from disturbances on nearby power lines,motors starting such a compressor motors in refridgerators and other current hungry appliances which deteriorate sensitive electronics such as ic's over a components lifetime and can lead to early failure. This is a well known and very real phenomonon. Your best protection is a agressive combination surge protector/line conditioner that regenerates a nearly perfect voltage spike free AC signal through the use of a isolation transformer. Granted these aren't cheap starting at about $400-500 US but woth every penny in the long run,especially for an expensive audio system. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1894 Registered: Sep-04 | Eric, Although the engineering principles you state are correct in the main, there is an unaccountable increase in performance when overspecifying the mains spur. This is a well known phenomenon which is one of the few that audiophiles agree on here in the UK. There's also an unaccounted-for loss in performance with surge protectors in my view. They certainly constrain the sound in my experience. That said, I have no idea why this happens because the rated power handling on the protectors and conditioners I have tried have been well in excess of the rated power requirements of the kit I have used with them. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElevenPittsburgh, PA USA Post Number: 54 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks for all your responses. Lots to mull over. And I have even more questions at this point. Too bad I never took electrical engineering, and college physics seems like ages ago. For the questions below that demonstrate my monumental ignorance, please forgive me. 1. For the new 20A circuit and receptacle, do I need to specify the gauge of wire from the circuit board to the receptacle? Do I need to specify a certain type of receptacle? My amp's powercord has just a standard 3-prong grounded plug (USA). 2. Would it be reasonable and safe to put the whole system on the new 20A circuit, instead of my original plan? That way, I could use a single line conditioner/surge protector (LCSP?). 2a. IF SO, is it safe to install just one receptacle on the 20A line as planned (with the typical two outlet jacks), connect the LCSP to that receptacle, and connect everything to that, via powerstrips or something? And would I need to use a 20A LCSP to make full use of the 20A circuit? 2b. IF NOT, would it be better or safer to have keep the system on separate curcuits and use a LCSP with a 15A circuit-breaker for the other equipment, and a 20A LCSP for the amplifier (or amp and sub) on the 20A circuit? 3. Any recommendations for a good LCSP, 15A or 20A? How about Panamax products? http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm Or how about Monster products? Tripp-Lite? PS-Audio? 4. Finally, is there a difference between line conditioning and voltage stabilization? Sorry for all the questions, but thanks very much for all the input. My electrician is coming soon and I want to be sure I get this all figured out first, so my new system is properly powered and protected. Thanks. ... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5620 Registered: Dec-04 | GC, I would(and do) keep the power amp on a seperate circuit, for 2 reasons. 1. The power amp requires no protection. The bigass torroid in there will fend for itself, thank you very much. 2. The high current draw of the amp will vary the voltage to the more sensitive componants. While they may operate within a wide range, a constant, steady supply is what makes a constant steady output. Varying inputs can vary the smaller power supplies, thus varying your pleasure. While Frank is dubious(rightly so) of power bar suppressors, look at what a suppressor does. It modulates the power. Now, it might just be me, but al cheapo suppressor does not react as quickl as your system on a snare snap. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 509 Registered: Feb-05 | Tell the electrician that you won't be needing his/her services after all GC and put this money, several hundred dollars possibly, towards a good "component" type surgeprotector/line conditioner such as the Panamax,I have an older model of the 4300 BTW, that has served me well for several years now. I have already demonstrated with concrete evidence that your amp cannot exceed its 15A rating. I would be quick to wager that your amp even at high volume levels for extended periods would only pull about 10-12A at most from the outlet. I'm pretty sure the electrician would charge you up to several hundred dollars to install a 20A circuit,especially if the 12AWG Romex, which a 20A circuit requires, is a pain in butt to snake through due to your home having a difficult layout(possibly). If the condition of the 14AWG Romex in the current 15A receptacle is not in question then forget about a 20A circuit. To answer your question a true 20A circuit requires 1)12AWG Romex from the main breaker panel to the outlet,2)a "hubell" type outlet which will accomodate 20A power cords which have one blade of the plug turned 90deg from the opposite blade and 3)a 20A breaker to replace the 15A in the main breaker panel. For it to be a true 20A circuit all 3 of the above are required. Nuck does bring up a good point with the 14AWG not being as good as 12AWG for a powerful amp and this is generally true,but I will counter that Romex is rated up to 600V without thermal instability so the chance of you heating up the wire without blowing the fuse on the amp or tripping the breaker are probably nil. Frank: There may be an advantage to a higher current rating for a main in panel in the UK,since you are in the hi-fi business,a tweak unknown to me- higher supply voltage, lower current, different from the US I won't argue here. I can't blame you one bit here. I wouldn't trust a cheapo surge protector($20 USD) either with it's M&M sized MOV's,it would not be much safer than plugging your gear straight into the outlet. You and I both know, however, that junk like that is not what I'm talking about here. I maintain that a GOOD QUALITY,component type sp/lc such as the Panamax,some of the Monster,Belkin, Trip Lite,and even more audiophile oriented brands such as the Chang conditioners will not limit current within preset maximum limits or degrade performance in any way. Nearly always these devices will provide a noticable improvement of performance of a system if no change is evident then someone might be amoung the lucky few that have very pure AC current in their particular area-highly unlikely since to quality of AC power in the US varies considerably from area to area. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElevenPittsburgh, PA USA Post Number: 58 Registered: Nov-06 | Eric, you feel the UK phenomenon of improvement in sound with a higher current rating, even despite actual capability of the amp, plays no role here? I understand that if the amp's internal circuit breaker opens at 15A, it can't draw any higher than that and thus the 20A circuit seems unnecessary... unless the UK experience has been seen here also. Anyone in the US with firsthand experience of Frank's "unaccountable increase in performance when overspecifying the mains spur" ? If not, maybe I'll just do ask Nuck suggests, ask for a second 15A circuit to keep the amp separate from the other equipment, on which I'll use a conditioner/protector. Thanks again for the ongoing help... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5642 Registered: Dec-04 | GC, again, I stress that the overload factor of a 14g conductor is heat alone. However, I have measured my line voltage with a 15amp toaster running. The line voltage dropped from 119v to 108v, and held steady. Now imagine your stereo with a varying input of up to 7% during a song. It just ain't right. The split circuit will keep the voltage up a bit to the amp, but more importantly, the lower draw controls and sources will have a more stable power supply. Split the power and pre. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElevenPittsburgh, PA USA Post Number: 59 Registered: Nov-06 | Sorry if I was unclear, Nuck, but actually I was trying to follow that advice! Splitting the power and pre, that is. But I see what you mean about the wire to a 15A circuit... I could just run thicker wire, though, right? I'll have to see what the cost difference is between the options of a new 15A circuit with beefier wire, and a new 20A circuit... Maybe it's not that much more just to do the 20A. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 510 Registered: Feb-05 | NO GC I was just trying to give Frank the benefit of doubt since he is a highend audio saleman. I'm sure there are numerous tweaks that I do not know about. I am rather doubtful that any of this "UK phenomon" is provable with any data other than the heresay conjecture of a small select group of audio elitists. As an industrial electrician the answer is a flat no,as I know from training and experience that an outlet even if overated cannot provide more current than the fused power supply of the equipment connected to it will allow. With a good line conditioner you can connect the amp to a high current outlet and the other equipment to isolated filter outlets that will be immune from transient surges produced by the the amps dynamic current demands. As far as replacing the 14AWG with 12 this just by itself, of course you know, will not give you a 20A circuit. I am confident that there is no amp on the market that will cause 14AWG Romex to burn without first blowing the rail supply fuses of the power supply or trip the breaker of the circuit,Romex has been tested up to 600V without becoming unstable(burning up), this is a voltage that you will never encounter in your home-not even close. Residential electrical work is a funny thing, it starts out very reasonable for even a simple job but if the home presents problems can become expensive very rapidly. Not to spoil your fun,but you may be in for sticker shock if you go with the 20A circuit,unless you do the work yourself. Enjoy that amp,I've heard a B&K before, very fine sound indeed,I'm a little jealous! Best of luck. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5693 Registered: Dec-04 | GC, if you gotta make a wire pull, just pull 12g. Insert the appropriate fuse and recepticle, 15A is fine. Pull bigger wire to avoid voltage drop. The amp could pull more than 15A in peaks, the Caps could absorb voltage spikes, but cannot produce voltage whan none is present. Big wire=good. Great info, Eric, thank you. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElevenPittsburgh, PA USA Post Number: 62 Registered: Nov-06 | Eric, Nuck, everyone... you all have been very helpful. I'll let you know how it all turns out... |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 511 Registered: Feb-05 | You're both very welcome. A voltage drop is only a concern when the outlet is connected to a purely resistive load such as a heater or a toaster oven. Power amplifiers, however, are not purely resistive loads rather they are mostly reactive loads. Assuming that the amp is a purely resistive load,which mind you is ridiculous, but for the sake of argument, if the 14AWG wire to the outlet is 65' or less you will be within the 5% of what the NEC recomends-not requires and a quite conservative figure,with up to 10% not being uncommon. This amp could possibly draw 15A for a brief period since the fuse is a slow blow type and a 15A circuit will hold an overcurrent for a very short duration, this is how B&K is able to "stretch" the figure out to 17.5A and 1830W,yet only use a 15A rated power cord. If a 15A draw is even possible though, even for a brief period this amp will be well into clipping,garenteed, and the point becomes moot anyway.Even the best ss amplifiers are only about 60% or so efficient anyway and thus more power is consumed than produced,always.Many homes have devices connected to outlets that have voltage drops as high as 10% with no problems and remain within the current limits of the circuit. You could get a 100' roll of 12AWG Romex for about $75-100,and pull the wire yourself if so inclined but I just don't think the wire is anything to worry about in this case. I still insist your best route would be a good line conditioner which will keep your power pure and steady to your components with very low noise and interference between them- again good luck with everything ,let us know how it turns out. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElevenPittsburgh, PA USA Post Number: 63 Registered: Nov-06 | No matter what circuit/wire/whatever I install, I'll definitely be looking for a good line conditioner/surge protector for the gear. Any favorites among those discussed already? |
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Bronze Member Username: ElevenPittsburgh, PA USA Post Number: 66 Registered: Nov-06 | Regarding power conditioning again... In previous threads, Jan Vigne has recommended Panamax. I don't see that they offer true voltage regulation, however, just protection (by shut-off) from voltages that are too high or too low. Should actual voltage regulation, i.e., correcting voltage to be within a close range around 120V, be a priority? And some sources say to avoid MOVs, as they will self-sacrifice, then require replacement. Thoughts about that? |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 512 Registered: Feb-05 | GC if you will read my previous post on this thread again I DID reccomend the Panamax units,as I own one an older 4300. The top of the line Panamax the 5500 does offer AC regeneration, as do the top of the line Monster units and others as well. These units are not cheap however, be prepared to spend $1000-1500. Much of the protection quality of an MOV depends on it's current and voltage rating. The MOV's in these units are very large about the size of a half-dollar coin and about 1/4" thick. I'm not certain of the exact V,I rating but you can be assured it is much,much higher than the M&M sized MOV's in budget protectors. Unless there is a catastrophic surge as with a nearby lightning strike(not direct on household lines-nothing can protect your gear from this,fortunately this is very rare) the large high quality Mov's in these units should be able to absorb smaller surges for probably at least 10 years possibly the lifetime of the equipment without needing replacement,unlike cheap surge protectors that will fail or need replacement in as little a six months to a year if your lucky. If you will go back to the Panamax site that you provided the link to and spend a little more time reading about their products this will explain their technology better to you. Also you might also want to check these out http//:www.brickwall.com |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1920 Registered: Sep-04 | And I recommended strongly against any kind of line conditioner because they always strangle the sound. I appreciate where you are coming from Eric, and I appreciate that the physics shouldn't be argued against, but there is the question of empirical evidence and everyone I know (and I know a hell of a lot) who has ever installed separate spurs has seen an improvement in the sound of their systems. Furthermore, the ones who upgraded from a 20A to a 36A or even higher rating have seen significant improvements in the sound quality, irrespective of the fact that their entire system wouldn't draw more than 10 amps in total. It's just one of those things. Even Ken Kessler installed three separate spurs to his listening room, each with different cable manufacturers to see if there could possibly be a difference in sound when using different cable looms, and you know what? There was a difference which he documented in HiFi News a couple of years back. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 513 Registered: Feb-05 | No problem Frank, admittedly the power system in the UK is rather strange with "ring" circuits rather than the conventional branch type circuits we have here in the US. There may be an advantage in the UK and the rest of Europe for that matter by an over-spec for the main in and individual outlets. You are a hi-fi salesman and probably know just about every tweak in the book so I will concede at this point and give you the benefit of doubt. I still stand by my reccomendation,however, for at least surge protection here in the US,where power quality varies widely and I know from actual tests that myself and others performed during our training that AC power is full of small surges and spikes that will have a negative effect on your gear over the long haul. Let's face it if you don't have good surge protection,particulary in the Southeastern US where I live which is subject to frequent violent thunderstorms during the summer months,your asking for trouble. Surge protection/line conditioning and placing shock absorbing materials under the feet of gear,particulary cd and dvd players, are some of the very few audio tweaks I believe in. I placed round rubber pads under the feet of my HK disc changer and the improvement was very apparent. The motor of the player was noticably more quiet-total investment about 3min and $1. Before I go I must say that honestly, I would rather argue with highend audiophile types such as yourself where the discourse is more gentlemanly and subjective and fun than the few engineering types(at least claiming to be??!!) that very occasionally pop up to offer a few scant posts,then have the rather annoying and predictable habit of dissapearing never to be heard from again. Engineers can be loathsome to deal with at times,just ask my boss who's boss is an engineer. Most arguments with these types invaribly turn into a credential,educational, empiracle pissing contest which is of little value to less knowlegable/experienced forum members. This is not to say though that I reject the established design/engineering principles governing electronics and electricity which I firmly belive in. Rest assured though, the few rantings of these types will long be forgotten as I continue my albiet slow, but sure road to gold member status. Respectfully -ER |
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Bronze Member Username: ElevenPittsburgh, PA USA Post Number: 70 Registered: Nov-06 | Sorry to come back and flog this dead horse, but... I've been looking at a bunch of different conditioners/isolaters etc... Not sure I want to cough up the $$ for a product that uses an isolation transformer, but we'll see... Anyone using the Tripp-Lite HT1210ISOCTR? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 261 Registered: May-06 | GC, I have a Tripp-Lite. Do not know if it is the HT1210ISOCTR but I bought it at Costco for ~$100. Battery back-up, line conditioner, voltage regulator. I use it for my 2nd HT, 2.1 System with a Samsung 50 DLP. Works fine. |
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Bronze Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 36 Registered: Jan-07 | I have a few year old, then hi-end panamax, 5510 AC Regenerator. It made a difference the INSTANT I got everything running. Music from a darker background. TV much....clearer, with NO snow upon source turn off. I had to readjust speaker location for best sound. US power is dirty. I have seen O-scopes when various appliances have turned on.....Stuff with capacitor start motors, like the Fridge and Dishwasher are maybe the messiest and kick up quite a bunch of hash. I'm sold for good. If I every install a HT room, power will be plentiful and clean. |