I'm new to this forum so I guess I'd better introduce myself briefly before firing my query.
I'm 45 and I live in Italy. I've been quite into music since I was a teen-ager and I bought my first (and last for now) hi-fi system. (Thorens phono / Marantz 1040 amp / tempest lab 3 speakers...good grief! Am I that old????
Well, My music tastes have somewhat changed since then and - though I don'e refrain from playing some lively rock / rock-blues ever now and then - I tend to focus mostly on classical music (my interests range from Gregorian chant and early poliphony, baroque music to 18th-19th century opera via synphonies and concertos). I also like folk and jazz.
Now, having decided to "invest" about 7-8000 euros in a brand new system, I would very much appreciate your enlightened help.
I have listened to quite a few things and so far I have found a combination of MINIMAX cd player + Primaluna prologue 2 tube amplifier + Audio Physic Tempo loudspeakers quite to my liking, although I feel I could bo better than this just with some good advice. A friend of mine, for instance suggested trying the Audio Physic SCORPIO in place of the Tempojust to get a better performance especially in the mid-low range and something more suitable to the music I like.
Those are wonderful equipment and should suit your musical taste very well.
I have heard Sonus Faber paired with Primaluna gear and the sound was heavenly. I do not know how well it fits in with your budget as the Cremona my wife purchased were priced well below market value. But if you can find the time to locate a dealer, I highly recommend that you do so.
I have about 300 lp's but mostly British rock, Celtic folk and American OTM/bluegrass, which I don't listen very often. Actually I am now realising I forgot to tell you my present cd player is a marantz mk67 II. I have a collection of 400 cd's, moslty classical music. Therefore it is vital that my new system is centred around the CD. I had the impression that the minimax (compared to other cd players) had a softer, less harsh sound).
No, I've never heard Rega.
The room is 5 X 7 but it's a bit irregular. In fact a side of the 5X7 rectangle opens to a 5X3 space. I'm afraid the picture is not very clear.
For a more romantic view of life consider both Sonus Faber and Chario. These are both good Italian brands with a rich and full presentation, particularly good in the midrange. Chario is a much bigger company than SF and has a much wider range of product too. SF is growing its range slowly.
Prima Luna are just demonstrating their new Dialogue products at CES this week. You may wish to ask your dealer about that.
I do not know the Minimax products at all. I can tell you that Rega Research's new Apollo is a real hit here in the UK for £500 (about 800 euros). In the context of an 8000 euro system this is strictly speaking a bit light. If I were partitioning money, I would want at least to split the funds evenly across the three components in order to get a decent signal from the CD player to the speakers.
I realise that your 400 CDs are more than 300 records which you don't play much, but 300 records represents nearly half your collection, so you might want to reconsider that at some stage. At this price range (some would say at any price range), vinyl reproduction is often better than CD. That Celtic folk would still appeal to your more classical tastes now. Also, considering your system, I'm not surprised you don't listen to the Rock and Bluegress stuff since your system doesn't have the timing capabilities to keep you interested.
There are many other brands to consider too of course, but it depends what you find in your area. you need to look around for HiFi specialists who offer different flavours. Have a look for brands such as Naim, Linn, Rega Research, Primare, Cyrus, Sugden, T+A, Densen, Dynaudio, B&W, PMC, ATC, Sonus Faber, Chario, Bluenote. You might be surprised what you find - and what you like!
Which Sonus Faber and which Chario models do you have in mind, precisely?
I listened to Sonus Faber Domus Gran piano and I quite liked them. Good imaging and sound-staging, maybe a bit too "restrained" if you see what I mean in terms of making you "feel" the sound of music. What about Chario? Pegasus or Ursa major?
Now you know what I mean by a more 'romantic' view! The Sonus Fabers are a bit more laid back. I was, in fact, thinking of the Grand Piano Domus or the Cremona Auditor.
The Charios are a bit more upfront. I was thinking more of the Academy Sonnet, or Constellation Delphinus, but there are a couple of ranges they make which I have not had the chance to hear.
Incidentally, with your taste in music don't worry too much about using smaller speakers (unless you are in a big room). Very often, smaller speakers are extremely effective.
I've just scheduled a listening session at a local retailer's: cd+amp Exposure or CD+amp Meridian + Totem Hawk / HArbeth monitor 30.
I can't remember the Meridian or Exposure models, but I'll keep you posted.
I've also found a retailer who sells Chario so that will be my next step.
Another small shop (quite strange, as it happens to sell top quality wine as well as high end audio) has Rega and Naim; another one (a bit further from my town has Totem and has suggested TOTEM FOREST + CD-amp Cambridge. He thinks Forest is a considerable improvement over HAWK.
I have re-read Frank's post, following the advice kindly provided by Nuck on the obvious assumption either that I'm a wee bit thick or I have problems understanding the language made famous by some of my favourite writers, such as W.Shakespeare, T.S.Eliot and Flann O'Brien, to name but a few. Anyway. I asked my last question (if EXPOSURE or MERIDIAN would be a wise choice with Totem Hawk ) as I have not yet found a retailer who has all the things recommended by Frank in his post. Therefore, unless I decide to buy them separately in different shops (but the discount will be lower and I wouldn't be able to listen to the whole thing and see for myself if it does suit my musical tastes) I'll have to do my best - undoubtedly by a process of trial and error - to get as close to the best choice as I can. Just a couple of days ago I had a chat with the owner of the "Wine and HI-FI" shop I was telling you about. He suggested the following: Naim CD5x / 122x pre / 150x power / REGA R7. He also recommended I should consider buying a NAIM FLATCAP 2X but honestly - lacking the basic technical knowledge - I didn't make haead or tail as to WHY that infernal thing (external power supplier?) should make such a considerable improvement. Let alone why I should buy expensive cables (a friend of mine who is an e-engineer says a good straightened out coat hanger will do) to "improve the quality of the mid range"!!!.
Regarding the Flatcap 2x - It's an external power supply. If used with the CD player, it powers the circuitry. If used for the pre-amp, it powers it rather than the power amp powering it. Either way, isolating the power supply cuts down on noise in the system, which always equates to a cleaner sound. If the price is worth it or not depends on you and your budget. Most Naim followers whole heartedly agree that they are a definite and dramatic improvement. I've heard a CD5x with and without the Flatcap and have heard a very big improvement.
As far as speaker wire goes, listen for yourself. I agree that it shouldn't make any difference (other than appropriate size for application), but my ears have told me differently. I've compared some at home and have heard differences. Many have, and many haven't. Most who have heard a difference agree that price doesn't always reflect sound quality. A more expensive cable doesn't mean it sounds better. If you're going with a Naim system, the Naim NACA5 cable is the best choice. It has something to do with capacitance, inductance, and a few others. Naim make the cables to match the amplifiers. Earlier Naim gear would develope problems if you didn't use Naim cable. The newer gear is more forgiving.
Also, Naim uses DIN connectors rather than RCA for interconnects. Your electrical engineer friend should be able to explain the benefits of a balanced vs unbalanced cable. Naim also uses Star Grounding (or Earthing). These combine to significantly reduce noise in the system.
Naim gear is very quirky. It seems like they do the opposite of what everyone else is doing. People either love it or hate it. You need to decide which side you're on here.
Unfortunatly, I have no experience with Meridian or Exposure. I'd love to have the Naim combo you mention though.
I'm really sorry to have caused such confusion. I did think long and hard before posting that message because availability in your area is bound to be different to that in mine, but I wanted to give you an idea of what kinds of things you could be looking at!
I am not a fan of the Rega loudspeakers. To me they sound like so much cardboard. However, your dealer's suggestion makes sense from a system-building point of view. The way the money is spread makes sense. I just don't like the R7s as a choice. your dealer may have other options, including Naim's own speakers (Arivas in this case), which would be well worth listening to. Now, Art likes Rega speakers and owns a pair himself so for him this system would be wonderful.
The Flatcap2x can power two different items separately. In the case of the CD5x, when you add the flatcap2x, this splits the transport mechanism control circuit from the DAC circuit. The flatcap2x powers the DAC circuit and the internal power supply of the CD5x powers the transport mechanism.
The Flatcap2x's other output would be used to power the 122x preamp. Naim preamps do not contain a power supply. This is because power supplies are big noisy things which are not nice to have in the proximity of the delicate line level signals being routed in the preamp (according to Naim of course). The 122x can be powered directly by the 150x power amp or by a separate power supply output such as the flatcap 2x. Adding the external power supply is like performing heart surgery on an amplifier - this is why it has a fairly big effect (always more than one expects). You can add the flatcap2x any time you like. This is why I suggested the more expensive speakers at this point.
The amplifiers have been designed specifically with Naim's own speaker cable in mind. Your friend has a typical engineer's approach and he's wrong in this case. The 150x power amp is actually a bit more flexible than old Naim amps (and the modern reference range) in that it can take most speaker cables. However, it usually sounds best with Naim's own cable. The great thing about Naim cable is that in the general scheme of things, it's not that expensive, and to be honest if you were buying a system like that from me I'd be giving it to you free, provided it's no longer than 10m a side!
There is one other upgrade option in the Naim system and that is the new HiLine interconnect. Naim CD players all come with the standard 'lavender' interconnect. Until 2006, this was the only interconnect I would recommend in any Naim system, not because it was the best at everything, but because it was the best overall. However, other interconnects showed where the Naim interconnect was not strong. It was beaten particularly in the resolution and bandwidth stakes by others such as the Chord Anthem (£300 for a 1m pair). The HiLine (£500 for a 1.3m length) has changed all that, but again you don't HAVE to buy it. It's just part of the great upgrade possibilities in the Naim system.
As you say, you need to be able to hear the systems. It's a pity the Totems aren't available at your Naim dealer. However, he may be able to offer you other options which work in the Naim context. Ask his advice!
Stu, the 122x provides two RCA inputs as well as 4 DIN (6 in total). Also please note that DIN is not Balanced. Balanced connectors are usually XLR and one XLR takes care of one channel (like one RCA does). DIN can handle more than one channel. It's fundamental difference is the way it earths the two components connected by a DIN-DIN connection. In a complete Naim system the whole CD/Pre/PS/Power combination is earthed to the CD player which has benefits in terms of noise.
Also, as to quirkiness, Naim is less quirky than it used to be and is nowadays really quite flexible. The 122x has two dedicated RCA Sub outputs, it has a programmable unity gain (aka bypass) feature on the AV input if it needs to be inserted into a surround system, and one of the DIN inputs can supply power to an external Naim phono stage (called a Stageline) if a turntable is being used. The DINs make it quirky, true and this means that dedicated cables need to be bought for it. The Naim dealer should have these available or to order. 2-Phono to DIN cables would be Chord Chrysalis (remarkably similar to Naim's own Lavender interconnect and relatively cheap at £60) and 4-phono-DIN is the same but a little more expensive. In the context of the price of a system such as this, I'd normally specify far more expensive cables than these.
You are a scholar and a gentleman. I was trying to say a lot of what you did, but you are far more articulate in it.
I knew DINs carried two channels, but I thought they were balanced. I guess I have to look up the definition of balanced. I figured that the DINs were basically a two channel XLR.
1A)cd: Meridian g07 - amp: meridian g51 - louds. Totem hawk
2A)cd: Meridian g07 - amp: meridian g51 - louds. Harbeth monitor 30
Well.
I think 2) was great. Great detail and sound purity. I got the feeling I could go on listening for hours at a rather high volume without getting the least bit tired. Well, obviously, the harbeth are not a bit (how can I put it) "punchy" and the music never quite gets to your guts.
1) good but at times I gor the feeling the amp had problems controlling the HAWK and the sound was a wee bit "out of focus".
This negative feeling completely disappeared with 1A): the positive qualities of HAWK (this is what I distinctly perceived) were fully supported by the higher precision and better control of MERIDIAN. Without the shadow of a doubt a great improvement over EXPOSURE.
Replcing the EXPOSURE with the MERIDIAN didn't seem to affect that much the HArbeth anyway.
I wonder whether NAIM would do much better with HAWK. What do you think, Frank?
PS I noticed that althought he room was quite small and both amps have a power of 100X2 watts, I had to turn the volume 60-70%. My room is about 7x4.5. Naim 150 is 50x2 watts. Is it muscular enough for HAWK?
In my opinion the Meridian is a different class to the Exposure and is closer to the Naim class. The Exposure of today is not the Exposure of yesteryear. The only concern I would have with Meridian is that they had quite a few production problems in 2005 and 2006. They took care of their customers of course, and I believe they have sorted out most of the problems, but it is a niggle that bothers me. That said, it's the higher specification of the G51's power supply which gives it the ability to control the Hawk better than the Exposure even though they have the same rated power. If an amplifier were a car engine, the power supply rating is the equivalent of an engine's torque.
The 150x would have no problem with Hawks in your room. Our demo room is slightly larger than your room so I have a fair idea of what is possible. Naim power amps always seem more powerful than their quoted value. Bear in mind that Naim's most powerful amplifier is only 140wpc and costs £13000 (about 20000 euros). Still, have a demo - you might hate it!
Stu - Scholar? Gentleman? Blimey! <yoda> When 10 years of Naim selling you reach, understand you will, the power of the Naim. </yoda>
I'll do my best to try the naim + hawk combo, although I haven't yet found a dealer who keeps both.
BTW, in case I should decide for the naim/totem, would it be a wise move to get FOREST in place of HAWK? Would that be an improvement? Or does that call for a more powerful amp?
I haven't heard the Harbeths which is why I didn't comment.
As for the Naim kit, just try whatever the dealer has to see what flavour it gives, but if you liked the Meridian combo then maybe that's what you should be buying.
The Forest is a wonderful speaker, more capable than the Hawk thanks to its larger bass/midrange drive unit and cabinet. It is actually easier to drive than the Hawk since it is an 8 ohm speaker with a minimum of 6.4 (the Hawk is a 6 ohm speaker so it goes lower than that). So in fact the 150x would not have a problem driving this speaker. the one thing is that at this price there are other very capable speakers such as the Wilson benesch ARC which I think is better.
I've recently come across the CHORD CPM 3300 integrated amplifier in a shop at a rather "reasonable" price; the shop's had it a little while on display in its show room and they are now selling it at a discount. I was considering buying it to drive the loudspeakers I've set my ... ears to: the harbeth monitor 30 and will probably be my choice. I was wondering whether you could be so kind as to tell me of the advisability of this combination.
I do not know the Harbeths but I do know the Chord amp. It is very powerful and very clean, probably Chord's best value for money item in the range.
Since it has such a clean and neutral sound, it absolutely requires a very good source and cabling to suit. If you don't have a good source, the Chord will reveal this ruthlessly since it has such good resolution and transparency. By good source, I mean something in the region of a Linn IKEMI, Naim CDX2, Chord DAC64 with a suitable transport such as an Arcam (excellent combination).
The best cable I found was a combination of Chord Co. interconnects (Chorus is an excellent combination) and Townshend Isolda DCT speaker cable (not cheap but opens everything up and preserves the timing). I have not tried Chord's new EPIC with this amp, but the standard EPIC is only a little less than the Townshend and the EPIC Super Twin is a fair bit more. I have tried Chord's top of the range Signature with the Chord amps and it is not as good as the Townshend even though it is more than twice the price, so there is little hope that the EPIC would be better (although you never know!).
So - provided you have a very good source and the Harbeths are a sympathetic match, the pairing should work. However, you never can tell until you've tried it I guess.
Don't forget that the Chord inverts phase so you should connect the speaker cables 'the wrong way around' - i.e. black plug to red terminal and red plug to black terminal. You can try it either way, but most people find that the music gains cohesion and punch when connected the way I suggest. The exception (and there are others I guess) is if you use a Chord DAC64 which also inverts phase...
The Chord 3300 is an excellent amplifier. If you are offerred it at a good price it is well worth considering.
