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US DVD/SACD Sales Figures for 2003

 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 259
Registered: Feb-04
For those interested:

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/ cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=6169
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 69
Registered: Mar-04
Interesting. But perhaps more interesting is the fact that neither one seems to be marketed very effectively. Is there a reason why the music companies and artists aren't screaming about their products from the rooftops? Here is a vastly superior product out but no one seems to care if they actually sell it or not. Very puzzling.

Thanks for the link, My Rantz.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 260
Registered: Feb-04
Sem

I concur. Even when discussing recievers and DVD players with dealers, none gave these new formats a mention unless I brought up the subject. Much education and promotion is needed otherwise consumer ignorance might see them fade into oblivion. I certainly hope not!
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 888
Registered: Dec-03
Thanks, My Rantz and Sem.

I wonder if part of the explanation is some sort of internal management/demarcation problem within manufacturing companies? Look on any manufacturer's or dealer's web page, and the first choice you have to make is whether to follow "stereo" aka "audio" or "home cinema/theater". DVD-Audio gets filed in the latter category as an extra "feature" of DVD-V players, but blows apart even their best players in the former category, not to mention threatening sales of two-channel amps etc.

The same problem, "What do you call it?", was on this forum until we got this new topic under "Home Audio". Thanks again, admin! "Audiophiles" scratching their heads about surround sound, and its formats, is the subject of Teaching an old dog new tricks... on this forum.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 74
Registered: Dec-03
There are too many competing formats for audio and video. You have MP3, WMA, WMV, AVI, DVD, DTS, CD, SACD, HDCD, DVD-A, LP to name a few.

You also have a public that now spends their time and money watching TV and movies, instead of listening to music. After all, you can get some 300 channels of digital TV for $80 dollars/no and new DVD releases are affordably priced. That is what is driving the home entertainment industry.

Now throw in HDTV, Tivo, Replay, DVD-R, satelite radio, computers, ect. and things become ever more complicated. It isn't hard to see why it is hard to launch a new audio format.

I think you are going to see the market move towards HDTV and DVD-RW players with digital tuners, hard drives capable of recording HD signals, and network cards to link to home PC's. At that time, maybe a hi rez audio format will be decided upon. Audio no longer has the clout to shape the home entertainment industry, like it once did.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 492
Registered: Dec-03
This could be why I read an article today saying that many in the DVD-A consortium plan on releasing a lot of two-sided discs--one side with cd/one with DVD-A. The most shocking news was that Sony plans on doing SACD/CD/and DVD on the same disc. While Sony won't actually do DVD-A, they will do a hi rez form of DVD in a PCM format. I guess Sony realizes that for all the record industry to survive (if not prosper) they need to sell discs which everyone can play, while still encouraging surround sound. I read this article today in a trade magazine called--Electronic Home.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 900
Registered: Dec-03
I read in HiFi News there was a technical problem with "flippers" - double sided discs with a different format on each side. The two bases for DVD and CD have to be different, so it is difficult to get the discs down to the specified 1.5 mm thickness. There are thicker discs around already, but the industry fears litigation from people whe get discs stuck in players. This is not completely convincing, to me.

The moves you report, Gregory, sound like an industry in a state if desparation, to me. What happened to "Give the lady what she wants"?

DVD-A flipped to DVD-V is very good; the player knows which format is on the disc. Menus trying to include DVD-A, DTS, and Dolby Digital are a mess. The "my player does not play instantly" people would hate those.But they would probably blame the loudspeakers.

BTW, anyone. I've asked this before, and the silence was deafening.

All LPs were double-sided. I cannot recall a single single-sided gramophone record, and I can just about remember people's collections of 78s.

All CDs were single-sided. I cannot recall a single double-sided CD.

Why is this?
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 498
Registered: Dec-03
John A--

Of course the industry is in desperation, particularly with so many people willing to rip their own discs, even if the sound quality isn't as good. The industry is desperate to come up with a value added formula that will retain a good customer base along with a customer base that wants surround.

As I have two systems, I know what you mean by the "my player doesn't recognize instantly" the format that people want and expect. That is why firewire from the dvd universal player to a firewire connection to a receiver or preamp is important. On my upstairs set-up, the Pioneer Elite 59AVi immediately communicates with the Pioneer Elite 49TXi through the two-way firewire connection whatever format is being played and adjusts itself accordingly.

Maybe there is a way for non-firewire connections to accomplish this--but I haven't seen it yet.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 905
Registered: Dec-03
Gregory,

"The industry is desperate to come up with a value added formula..." . I wish I believed it were that simple. It that's all it is, they would produce things that people want to buy. I somehow feel this has become an obsolete business concept. A US president (you will know, I forget) said "Build a better mousetrap...and the world will beat a path to your door" .

"....that will retain a good customer base". Make something to sell in Adam Smith's free market, and you will find out how much it is worth. You might well retain the customer base, but only if the product is what people are willing and able to pay for. If not, someone else takes over. I don't see what more anyone should expect.

Look at the success of iPod. It's what people want. All strength to it. It's when producers start to feel they own consumers that the whole thing implodes, and we get less value, less choice, less goods, less progress.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 906
Registered: Dec-03
Sorry to carry on...

So why do we agonise about "which way will the industry go"? The only way to show the producers who's boss is to go out and buy something you like, just for that reason.

As regards reproducing recorded music in the home, I would just like people to know about DVD-Audio. It is great. I have heard it myself. People can, and will, decide for themselves if it is worth paying money for. For me, it already is.

Worrying about where the mass market will be in 5-10 years is saying to the industry: "I have no mind of my own; please take me for a ride; here's my wallet, you can have it, I don't mind".
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 499
Registered: Dec-03
John A--

The sad fact is that for most people MP3's sound fine. Add to that the convience factor of IPOD's and other such players being able to hold thousands of songs, the vast majority of people will not invest into DVD-A or SACD.

Most people buy inexpensive speakers and inexpensive receivers (nevermind inexpensive other components). Audiophiles and Movie afficianado's are more likely to purchase quality surround systems--with all that entails. But interestingly, even these same people after spending thousands of dollars on their kit will get cheap on the software. Somehow there is a disconnect in their understanding of science--that the quality of the signal is the single most important aspect, followed by good speakers, and an acoustically balanced room.

I know people with very expensive kits that plug in their IPOD's and are satisfied. When I play them a great DVD-A or even a great cd they hear the difference, yet somehow they resent paying a few dollars more for the software--when they had no problem ponying up upwards of $5K on their system. Some of their HDTV's are over $5K, nevermind the remainder of the system.

Somehow the younger generations (MTV generations) are so into video and movie's and great sound in that genre (that they don't mind paying mucho dinero for dvd'v's)--but somehow this doesn't translate into many of them willing to spend the same for even greater sonic benefit of cd's, dvd-a's, and sacd's--if they can rip an inferior product.

Maybe it is as simple as--"If I was able to rip half decent quality movies without spending 3 hours to download one I would do that rather than buying DVD-V's". Or maybe they are so into the disposable pop culture that they realize what they like to listen to today will likely differ from what they will like in a month, so investing in a great recording of Brittney Spears or Janet Jackson isn't a wise move.

In the US it is a rare school district indeed that avails the students to the great music from the classical period (Renaissance, Baroque, Rococco (a terminology sometimes used to describe the period before Romance period, modern classical, jazz, blues, and even classic rock.

Most parents aren't willing to invest in their children's culture and many of the conservatives in this country don't want the government to support cultural activities--reminiscent of Mr. Holland's Opus. It is a sad state of affairs here. We invest less a percentage than any western country in our culture--one Mapplethorpe photo gets half the population in an uproar and "The Piss Christ" sends them beyond the pale. G-d forbid some artist disagrees with them and they had to pay 1/1000th of a penny to support it. We all pay for programs in our government we don't like or even use--but this has somehow become a "cause celebre" and a great fund raising mechanism for the politicians and religious leaders that prey on the easily manipulated populace.

The above being said--hopefully there are and there will be a sufficient number of people worldwide that appreciate great sound and performances--enough so that manufacturers will find it profitable enough to cater to this crowd.

Sorry for the rant.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 78
Registered: Dec-03
I just saw something on the news that said with all of itunes touted sales figures, it is still less than 1% of total music sales. That means that the pay-to-download business is in its infant stages and subject to change.

Unfortunately, Apple requires you to download their software in order to download their songs or use their ipod. This sounds like the same PC vs Mac war that occured in the early to mid 80's. My guess is that Apple forcing users to use their software (and portable devices) in order to get songs, will be their downfall.

I have also been dissapointed that we haven't seen more manufacturers make a serious effort to work computers into high-end audio systems.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 921
Registered: Dec-03
Gregory,

I am with you all the way. Except I probably don't feel quite as strongly, for some reason. Europe's general tendency to tell people what is good for them is more a cause of my concern, and that is the flip side. If equilibrium is 1 % of people listening to classical, or into serious hi-fi, I really don't mind, provided they have the freedom to choose - who are we to tell people our tastes are better than theirs? The American ethos is pure C18th Enlightenment values - those guys wrote the Constitution - and it is much better than having guys like Joe Stalin telling people what sort of music they are allowed to hear, research they can undertake, or opinions they can hold. Shostakovich should have defected. I would have chipped in for his ticket. Life sciences are where they are in Russia because a guy called Lysenko delivered "the right answer" on genetics, and was given total power to extinguish all other opinions on the subject.

Ben,

From where I look at it, Apple is reaching out. There is a Windows version of iTunes. It could be me, I'll think about it.

I am sure you are correct in saying computers will come more and more in to high-end audio. I think we, all three, would agree on that.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 72
Registered: Mar-04
Apologies if this site is common knowledge. I just stumbled upon it today.

http://www.elusivedisc.com/specials.asp
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 952
Registered: Dec-03
Sem,

Well I, for one, did not know. Great site; great retailer. Thanks!

Two points.

1. Aix records do direct sale. Looks to me as if the prices are about the same from Elusive Disc.

2. Elusive is clearly a US supplier of the Naxos DVD-Audio discs I keep banging on about. Naxos also provides a list of on-line retailers. In US that includes Tower Records and Amazon.

Nice to see Elusive sells LPs!
 

Alexander
Unregistered guest
Hi everyone,

After reading a bit on this thread I decided to go ahead and get a DVD-A, after 5 minutes of debating which one to get as Best Buy does not offer a lot of titles, I purchased Queen's "A night a the Opera" maybe is not the best recording available but it really sounded remarkably when I played it and guess what ...I used my $99.00 toshiba DVD player ! (in DTS format). Next week I will be buying a DVD-A player....I can not wait !
Cheers!
Alex
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 86
Registered: Mar-04
Getting back to the original thought line of this thread...For a large portion of the younger music listeners in general, (I'm sounding old here..), it is more about where you listen than the quality of what you listen to. Its more about taking the music with you, not coming to the music as we did in the past. So, until high-end-audio-on-the-go becomes more prevalent there isn't as much a need to market it intensely.

I think some makes of new cars come loaded with surround packages. This may eventually help SACD and DVD-A sales, although DVD-A's may be at a distinct disadvantage here as they must be played through a dvd player. Its probably not in the best interest of safety for people to be watching music videos as they're driving in rush hour traffic. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 515
Registered: Dec-03
Sem--

SACD in non-surround isn't a huge improvement over CD. To play SACD in surround you need an SACD player, just as you need a DVD-A player to ideally listen to DVD-A surround (although it sounds quite good through a regular DVD player).

So cars with surround systems will have to possess universal players. DVD-A is at no disadvantage, as the only video it displays is lyrics and the occassional picture. So if you have no display in your car--who cares? It has no effect on the DVD-A playback.

I heard DVD-A in the new Acura 3.2 TL and the Acura MDX (SUV)at the dealership while waiting to get my 2001 MDX serviced for it's 30,000 mile check-up --it sounded great. I certainly would love to sell my MDX and get the new one with the universal surround. But it would be a waste of about 10K to do the upgrade.

CD's have been portable for quite a while. And an IPOD can be recorded in the same format as a CD. Sure, people will often want music portability for listening while walking, at the beach, or wherever.

But there will always be people that want the great playback of a quality 5.1 audio system (and great 2-channel playback) in a top notch media room. Just as there are people that will look at a small tv in the kitchen, on a laptop, or the dvd in a car--when they seriously want to get down to a great audio/visual experience they go to their media room and listen to their 5.1 (or 7.1) system with their HDTV or other large screen tv. Portability can't replace the power, glory, and total immersion of a system made for great reproduction of sound and video.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 87
Registered: Mar-04
Gregory, to comment on some of your points...

SACD in non-surround isn't a huge improvement over CD. To play SACD in surround you need an SACD player, just as you need a DVD-A player to ideally listen to DVD-A surround (although it sounds quite good through a regular DVD player).

- Right, I realize that.

So cars with surround systems will have to possess universal players. DVD-A is at no disadvantage, as the only video it displays is lyrics and the occassional picture.

- Not totally true. My new DVD-A In Abstensia by Porcupine Tree includes 3 full length videos (in DTS surround). http://www.highfidelityreviews.com/reviews/review.asp?reviewnumber=18959790

So if you have no display in your car--who cares? It has no effect on the DVD-A playback.

- True (for music at least).

I heard DVD-A in the new Acura 3.2 TL and the Acura MDX (SUV)at the dealership while waiting to get my 2001 MDX serviced for it's 30,000 mile check-up --it sounded great. I certainly would love to sell my MDX and get the new one with the universal surround. But it would be a waste of about 10K to do the upgrade.

- That would be an expensive upgrade. :-)
My point was its just a matter of time before auto makers tout the enhanced sound of SACD/DVD-A as another selling point in trying to move cars. Sales (and marketing of) DVD-A's and SACD's may pick up as more and more avenues are opened for people to be able to enjoy them.

CD's have been portable for quite a while. And an IPOD can be recorded in the same format as a CD. Sure, people will often want music portability for listening while walking, at the beach, or wherever.

- Very true. I think your first paragraph in your May 7th post above, said it best. As long as people are happy with mp3's and ipods there's no real motivation to invest in DVD-A and SACD.

But there will always be people that want the great playback of a quality 5.1 audio system (and great 2-channel playback) in a top notch media room. Just as there are people that will look at a small tv in the kitchen, on a laptop, or the dvd in a car--when they seriously want to get down to a great audio/visual experience they go to their media room and listen to their 5.1 (or 7.1) system with their HDTV or other large screen tv. Portability can't replace the power, glory, and total immersion of a system made for great reproduction of sound and video.

- I totally agree Gregory, a lot of theose same people are here in this forum.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 87
Registered: Dec-03
I think you will see more automakers pushing satelite radio receivers, GPS, and maybe DVD for van and SUV passangers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 522
Registered: Dec-03
Ben--

It is happening as we speak, particularly in the near luxury and luxury end of the industry.

But there will be many more universal dvd/cd players in cars, SUV's, vans, and trucks in the next few years. Just look how inexpensive a stand alone Pioneer universal dvd player is---the main work will be the balancing of the surround speakers in the vehicle. But I am sure the major suppliers have the computer programs and testing abilities to get that reasonably right.
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