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230V Step-up conditioner

 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 202
Registered: Dec-05
Let's say you might pick up an amp built for Asia with a 230V input. You need a converter/transformer of some kind to run it here in the US. This place:

http://www.220-electronics.com/google.htm

has lots, but what affect on the sound? Do you think there is a better idea? One of their giant (3000W) transformers is only $110...
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2875
Registered: Dec-04
Paul, you want an isolation XO for any sensitive application. You would want to run it past a Megger before use, and depending on your insurance, might want it inspected.

230 is available in a house, like for the dryer or electric stove.

However, Asian stuff is 230v @ 50 Hz.
I have used a frequency drive, built for electric motors for this purpose.

Allen Bradley and the like.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 203
Registered: Dec-05
Now I'm a bit confused. A converter/transformer like the one I linked to won't work? The freq (50hz) is critical? Please elaborate a bit...

 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2878
Registered: Dec-04
Paul, the Hz is critical.
Equipment is made for 50Hz or 60Hz.
Ites 60 here, I am pretty sure it is 50 over there.
A frequency drive can fix both, but not recommended for hi-fi so far as I know.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2879
Registered: Dec-04
soul searching yourself?
 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 204
Registered: Dec-05
From the site I linked:

ycles - 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz
North American 110-120 volt electricity is generated at 60 Hz. (Cycles) Alternating Current. Most foreign 220-240 volt electricity is generated at 50 Hz. (Cycles) Alternating Current. This cycle difference will cause analog clocks and timing circuits that use Alternating Current as a timing base to keep incorrect time. Most modern electronic equipment including battery chargers, computers, printers, stereos, tape and CD players, VCR/DVD players, etc. will not be affected by the difference in cycles. IMPORTANT: Voltage converters and transformers do not convert cycles.

Just saw a great deal on a Japanese SET amp.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2887
Registered: Dec-04
Paul, you might note that all of those devices do not produce hifi sound.
The XO of a set amp is designed for the recycle rate of the source power to cycle the outputs at the same rate.
My guess(guess at best) is an overcycling of the outputs and an abundance of heat.
Where the heck is everybody else?
Do you know what the Hz power is Paul?
Just checking before the schpiel.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 205
Registered: Dec-05
"Hz power"? No, I don't know what you mean by that. At all. :-}

Maybe too good to be true. 845-based SET monoblocks, retail for $5500, sold from $2200 from Japan. Guy has lots of good feedback. Escrow service is used so no real risk. He says they will work with a transformer/converter but who knows.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2888
Registered: Dec-04
Give it a shot, Paul, the power can be sorted out on shore here.
Get 2 for 1!
Dude, youre hooked.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2889
Registered: Dec-04
Transformer, yes.
Converter, thats where the freq comes into play.
Imagine(or draw) a saimple sine wave at equal intervals crossing a center neutral line.
The base line is where all the energy is grounded. Voltage goes up, voltage goes down, but at each cycle, the power is zero at the baseline.
In North America, this happens 60 times a second, like zero voltage, all to neutral(nothingness). This means your blender has to count on inertia to keep it going, and thats ok, because the next power pulse is on the way in 1 60 th of a second.
So your amplifier, without beater blades to keep it going, is counting on capacitors and such to keep things even, and it mostly works.
Well over the pond, they use 50 pulses a second(just because) so the pulses might make the beaters stick in the dough. To answer that, the voltage is bumped up to lethal levels to provide enough grunt via voltage, rather than a more regular kick in the pants to keep the blender humming.

Now imagine sending the expected input, at higher voltage to your hi-fi, at pulses 13% more than expected. As well, you are exposing the tubes to 13% more flat grounds than it was designed for.

That is a brutal and probably not accurate, but effective enough description, and hell, its free!
 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 206
Registered: Dec-05
I hadn't thought of it that clearly before, Nuck, and I now think it's damn likely you're on to something. Think I may have to pass.

I have wanted to try SET but amps with enough juice to drive non-specialty speakers (>20W/ch) are not too common. These Consonance blocks are supposed to be world-class. But if I wait long enough something else will turn up on 'gon.

Hooked? Oh, heck ya. I've been doing pretty good at getting my money back out of the stuff I resell, though!

Thanks for the help and good luck with your new system! (Yes, been reading the thread.)

Paul
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2891
Registered: Dec-04
OK Paul, stop by and stir the tears in my beer sometime.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 207
Registered: Dec-05
Now Nuck, YOU'S DONT WANNA NO TOOBS!!!

So stop whining.

;-}
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2894
Registered: Dec-04
k
 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 209
Registered: Dec-05
Anyone else care to weigh in on this? Jan, you genius, you out there?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8668
Registered: May-04


Yessssss!
 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 210
Registered: Dec-05
I was thinking some more. The transformer converts the current to DC, no? The internals of any amp run on DC... so the cycles/sec of the incoming AC matters not at all.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8670
Registered: May-04


The transformer does not perform the change from AC to DC. The rectifier circuit manages that task and will be part of the power supply circuit where the transformer resides. What goes into the transformer, in terms of AC or DC, is also what comes out of the transformer. The transformer is used as a step up or step down device. 120VAC goes in, 12VAC comes out. The rectifier then converts that voltage to DC and feeds it to the (power supply) storage capacitors.


PF - I know you like to shop used gear for deals. But, this transformer sounds like you're getting into "kluge" territory. Look around a bit more for gear that works the way its supposed to on the voltage you will be using.


 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 211
Registered: Dec-05
I think I'm gonna take your advice, Jan. I think.

So, sounds like an amp co. really has to change a lot of components for different markets, eh?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8673
Registered: May-04


It depends on how they build their equipment. They can use transformers which have multiple taps for various input voltages/cycles. This makes each transformer more expensive but accommodates a wide variety of markets. Once the AC voltage is rectified, it makes no other difference to the amplifier.





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