Using two subs

 

New member
Username: Dvak

Post Number: 8
Registered: Apr-06
velodyne 12 inch and a kilpsch 12 inch connected to a onkyo and warfedale evo 5.1 with this be a good match.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8528
Registered: May-04


You're going to do it no matter what we say; aren't you?


 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2669
Registered: Dec-04
yes, and yes.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2670
Registered: Dec-04
dvak, model numbers and specs would help a whole heck of a lot.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa4

Post Number: 475
Registered: Jul-05
No it won't. Trying to take two different manufacturer subs and integrate them without getting a whole host of problems.

Interestingly, you have a long shot at a better result, although I doubt you could achieve it ( its difficult) with two subs of different driver sizes and frequency ranges. Trying to do this with the same driver sizes in two differently constructed cabinets/amps and electronics is asking for a suboptimal result.

You are going to get " Boom Boom soup" in an " I need immodium now" kind of way.
 

New member
Username: Dvak

Post Number: 10
Registered: Apr-06
two subs if have to be used, it should be of the same brand. im mainly using this setup for movies and classical music.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dvak

Post Number: 11
Registered: Apr-06
velodyne cht-12r, kilipsh ksw-12 are specs of the sub
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8546
Registered: May-04


" .. . two subs of different driver sizes and frequency ranges."


Like one between 33 and 80Hz and the other between 30 and 80Hz? Subwoofers cover the same frequencies. How do you get two subs with different frequency ranges? They will both be doing 40Hz if that's what's coming from the system.


Why don't you use one subwoofer on the front channels and the other on the rear channels. That should mitigate some of the discontinuity between the character of the two units.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Dvak

Post Number: 12
Registered: Apr-06
like to know is it better to have one big sub or two small ones for a room which is about 25
squaremeters. i take it that from your comment that 2 different subs will not really be a good idea. thanks for the info Jan, looking forward for the reply
 

Gold Member
Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala The Occupation

Post Number: 4070
Registered: Mar-05
I read an HK white paper a while back where they were testing single vs. multiple sub configs and also different placement options. The gist of it was that the best results they got were from having 2 subs, one directly in front of the listening position and one directly behind.

Dr. Hsu also recommends nearfield placement as a first choice, so if you have a rug that you can easily run a wire under I'd try that first.

Also look at outlawaudio.com they offer a bundle of a big sub (LFM-1) with a smaller sub (LFM-2). I assume you'd turn off the big sub while listening to music, and have both for HT.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa4

Post Number: 479
Registered: Jul-05
The conclusion of that paper was actually that 4 subs were the best result but the gain from two to four was very small.

In response to Jans comment-- integrating two subs of different brands or sizes is very very difficult.

However, if having to choose, two different sizes handling preset different frequency ranges in the rght hands can get a good result; two different brands of subs cannot get an accurate result.

There is a lot of experience on this available for reading perusal at multiple websites including av123.com, avsforum.com, and audioholics as well.

But yes in the end two subs of the same brand makes the most sense, particularly with smaller sized drivers ( like a 10 inch subwoofer instance).
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8558
Registered: May-04


I would have to disagree that you cannot get good results from two subs made by two different companies. That would seem to assume too many things that don't exist in the real world.


In the case of this thread, we're not really talking expensive subwoofers. The tiniest details of music in the sub-thrity Hertz range probably aren't an issue with this listener. Without it being stated here, I'm going to assume the reason for wanting the extra sub is merely to get some more balls into the bottom end. With a subwoofer in the under $500 range, balls and detail are almost always self-exclusive. So, we really have to consider what the listener might think is "good" sound before we make any sweeping statements and over-generalizations.


Additionally, with many of the subwoofers priced beneath the $500 point, the drivers and plate amplifiers are generic items that don't really sound that different from one another. Some loud grunt here and some boom there, hope they never really listen, stick your name badge on it and call it your subwoofer. Most of this stuff comes from a few factories anyway. Does Paradigm design and build their own plate amp? Which subwoofer company does? Mating two subs of this caliber isn't all that difficult. Have you ever read the specs for a basic plate amplifier?


If the drivers and amplifiers are quite obviously different side to side, there might be more problems. A ported sub paired with a sealed enclosure might be more difficult to blend effectively. A class AB discrete component output vs. a cheap class D amplifier might make enough difference to be heard by someone with a good ear. But, consider that most people just put the sub where it fits rather than where it performs best and room interaction can make even the character of two identical subs seem different. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume these two subs can sound "OK" to many listeners.


If you're not working with the room to get the best sound beneath 100Hz, then what sub you choose is somewhat immaterial. And, given the quality of the signal that exists beneath 100Hz on many recordings, I find it hard to believe most listeners will know whether their subwoofer is performing to its best advantage or just booming away more loudly in one location than another or more so than their friend's subwoofer. Words such as "quick", "tight" and "woody" have little meaning unless they are tied to a reference that has those qualities. If you've never heard a drumset live without amplification or an upright bass filling a space with body resonance, I have a hard time thinking you can be critical of anything other that your own tastes. And your tastes probably aren't someone else's tastes.






As far as how many subs and where to place them. There's no more right answer than there is a single correct sub for everyone. I think most people would prefer to have two or more subs if they are trying to drive the room properly. By generating the low frequency wave at two, or more, locations, you can more evenly distribute the energy in the room and possibly excite different room response. There are computer programs you can work with as freeware which will tell you where the best location is for a sub woofer in a given room. And, you can predict where the problems will occur. However, I've not seen anything that allows you to predict the response of two subwoofers in a room and the best location for both. If anyone knows of such a site, please give a link. Given the trial and error placement that two subs will require, I think you can get better response from more than one sub when they are placed on different planes of the room, but I don't know that most people will have the patience to find where both units work best together and blend with the rest of the system.


 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2735
Registered: Dec-04
David Pannell on the forum here successfully melded two very different subs.
Davidpa?
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa4

Post Number: 484
Registered: Jul-05
The successful integration of two different sized subs has been done many times. Its just a lot of work. Two different brands of the same size is more difficult as I said.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2736
Registered: Dec-04
I understand, Marc.
The performance of the subs can crosstalk quite readily.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2737
Registered: Dec-04
Two of the same subs can work quite well, even if they are sub-par. Like mine.

Harmonics can add a lot to the sound, first or second order, depending on placement.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2738
Registered: Dec-04
The placement of odd subs is a toss of the coin.
6-5 and pick 'em.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8564
Registered: May-04



"However, if having to choose, two different sizes handling preset different frequency ranges in the rght hands can get a good result; two different brands of subs cannot get an accurate result."



"Two different brands of the same size is more difficult as I said."



You keep saying this, but you offer no reasoning for your comment. I'm not grasping what makes this so difficult and why particularly the same size has anything to do with the situation. It would seem to me that if there are difficulties, they would exist no matter the size of the driver. Physical size means very little though I know many of you won't want to hear that. All 12" drivers are not created equal and a talented ten incher can be very pleasing from what I've been told.


Since you seem in possession of some facts which have escaped my notice, and I'm too lazy to just go "perusing" the three websites you mentioned (and fear there is nothing to offer there beyond opinion and no solid facts), would you kindly give some explanation for your statement other than, "it doesn't work right"? What about it doesn't work? Please, give some examples. And, do consider we are not talking about $2k+ subs at the moment.


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