Quality/Cost/Longevity?

 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1903
Registered: Dec-04
How can a new buyer/listener discern between the stated attributes?
Of course, a good dealer will be honest and will listen to what the customer needs, but when the $$$ come down, comprimises must be made.For all of us at some time.

So, of course getting the right piece is crucial, what about the future? Do you buy for the apartment you are in now, knowing you will buy a house in 3 years?

How many times have we seen a post about someone with a 3 yr old receiver, dead in the water?It's a crying shame.

How can we all come up with(or lead me to) a kind of curve rating of product like baseball does with broader averages to come up with a useful number?
Like OBP is good for a hitter, WHIP for Pitchers, can we come up with values for equipment?

Casey Stengall.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 2909
Registered: Feb-05
Buy good sounding gear that is timeless and you can make adjustments to almost any listening environment to accommodate it.

"Tubes for Every Man and Woman"

Sorry, couldn't help myself.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Basicaudio

Chula vista, Ca US

Post Number: 26
Registered: Mar-06
It seems to me many of the vintage gear seem to out last many of the more popular makes.

Old mcintosh for high end for example,
old pioneer/kenwood/marantz on the hi fi end.
I guess you can argue about the same on cars?

I read so many post on old timers posting their high end gear that are vintage that seem to last for decades!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Mofoknows

Post Number: 45
Registered: Mar-06
Adcom separates use to represent excellent value/longevity for the money. Audiophile quality on a budget. But like everything else, their pricing structure is now so inflated that they compete(price wise) with some of the more expensive gear. Art,nothing like the sound of a tenor sax on tubes. I can close my eyes and buddy, I'm there. Try some Ben Webster. I have found tubes to be exceptional on accoustical pieces. But I have generally not been as satisfied with hard hitting stuff like, for example the Yellowjackets.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 2911
Registered: Feb-05
I think it depends on the design of the amp and the type of tubes used. That is the very reason I bought an amp with the KT88 output tubes. They seem to give that "hard hitting stuff" a better chance to sing than say an amp with the EL34's. In general I agree with you especially if we are talking about using the same speakers with both a tube amp and a solid state one. However when we start looking at matching the speakers and amp for the best synergy (which hopefully we would do when buying a system) the ball game changes a bit. When I bought my tube amp I already had speakers. Fortunately for me the Studio 20v3's are a very good match with my amp. I have yet to hear anything that doesn't sound better with my new amp than it did with my old solid state (NAD C162 and Hafler 9505) gear.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8057
Registered: May-04


Most people who feel tube based amplification doesn't do something "right" have not heard tubes matched to the correct speakers. With a higher output impedance than a direct coupled, solid state output device and the typical connection point for the NFB loop being placed on the 16 Ohm tap, tubes require more careful matching than solid state just on a technical qualities basis. Some people may never like tube sound however, just as some of us are cool to transistors.


To Nuck's question, reliability is not that difficult to figure out once you are in the higher end products; in other words, out of the mainstream receiver market. Within the mass market portion of consumer audio, you might as well buy as if the product is disposable. That is the manufacturer's attitude. Rather irksome when you have invested $1k in a receiver.



By getting into the integrated amplifier, or separates market you have typically taken a step forward in quality of construction, and hopefully that will translate into longevity and therefore resale value should that be of interest. That is where I feel many listeners begin to separate themselves into camps. Are you buying a product for a one or two year audition or do you intend to buy your last system everytime you purchase a component?


If you want no more than the former, you needn't worry much about longevity or where the system will be located in a few years. You can buy the "hot" component that runs its circuitry at or beyond the limits of design, a 1/4 watt resistor where a 1/2 watt should go, and only worry about what happens while you own the equipment. This is usually the product of a flash in the pan company who typically doesn't set themself up for the inevitable repairs and gets swamped in the production end when it must be converted to a repair center. Audio history is rife with the gravestones of such companies. The trick is some of those companies began as quality, reliable component manufacturers. SAE and Counterpoint come to mind in that regard.


A well designed product which will fit the "last system" category will find its way to that reputation within a short time. Therefore buying a "known" quantity is key to the first and third elements of Nuck's equation. Value is another matter.


We've all heard the comment, "It's worth what someone will pay for it." That sums up value. I tried to make the distinction for my clients between a value and a bargain. Everyone would like to feel they got a good bargain and often this clouds their vision toward what is a good value. The lure of the discount is all too often the motivating factor in buying decisions. Monetary neccesities aside for the moment, which do you think would be the better value. A $2k amplifier selling new at a 50% reduction in price? Or, a $2k amplifier which sells everyday for $2k? I tried to stress which amplifier would be the better "deal". Are you better off buying a Ford with a $5k rebate and dealer incentives which garner another $2500 off the retail price and special financing? Or, a Honda which sells for close to sticker with no rebates, no deals and no 0% financing? Well, of course the answer to that would be how you intend to use the car. An every eighteen months trader will benefit from the deal on the Ford. The long term owner will find their Honda worth 50% of retail in five years while the Ford would bring back 25%. In the long run, which is the better deal?


If you buy a component or a system the test for how good the deal was comes not six days after you take it home and not six months. If, after six years, whether you still own the product or not, you think you got a good deal, then you probably did. There are, unfortunately, only a handful of components in consumer audio which consistently find people who regret selling the product or buy back what they have given up. Naturally, if "value" is high on your list of buying motivations, then I would steer you toward those items. Not so curiously though, what people told me was important to them in decision making was seldom what "sold" them on a product.


Regarding a company such as Adcom moving upscale in price, it is the ineveitable result of success. The company is hoping to rely upon the buyer loyalty of the second time purchase as it is much easier to sell to an individual customer the second time than it is the first. The first time out is when you've usually eased their initial objections to a product. And the company has, after a time, more or less exhausted what can be achieved at a given price range. Additionally, almost every successful company will eventually want to make their flagship, statement product where cost is less of a concern that when designing the products which built their reputation for "value". Now about the idea of dancing with who brung ya ...



 

Bronze Member
Username: Mofoknows

Post Number: 52
Registered: Mar-06
"Most people who feel tube based amplification doesn't do something "right" have not heard tubes matched to the correct speakers."
Jan Vigne

Is this based on your personal observation? Or do you have objective data to support such a broad assertion? I know many "golden-earred" audiophiles who would beg to differ with your conclusion. But I wouldn't claim that "most people" feel that way. Where do you get your info?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8059
Registered: May-04


First, Wiley, if this debate is meant to further the intent of the thread (which by deviating from the thread's main question, I suspect it is not), I have no problem answering your question. However, if this is just another attempt on your part to harrass me, it will be reported to the administrator. So, please, tread carefully.


Initially, I would question your assertion that you know many "'golden earred' (sic) audiophiles" who can testify to the veracity of my claim. You would appear to have limited knowledge of anyone or any product not to be found in the local Best Buy.


Anyone with any serious amount of knowledge concerning tube based amplifiers should become familar with the benefits and limitations of such designs. At the very least, they should seek out a shop and personnell capable of assisting them with information gathering. That is the basic premise of putting together a well matched system. Speaker selection due to incompatibility with any amplifier having a high output impedance is paramount to understanding system synergy. That tube based power amplifiers and pre amplifiers have a typically higher output imedance than a solid state based unit should be well understood by anyone who has made any serious attempt at understanding what they are hearing and possibly buying. If you choose to ignore this fact, you risk not only not hearing a component at its best but also not understanding why you are getting those results and what it would take to correct the situation.



Wiley, can you tell me what the "typical" output impedance of a transformer coupled tube power amplifier would be? How about a direct coupled solid state device? How many people do you know who could give you that information? Assuming you know many audiophiles, I can only guess these answers should be readily available to you.


Since you have either misread or intentionaly distorted my words, I think it safe to say "most people" in my post refers to a group of listeners who are uncomfortable with the sound they hear from tubes. In your context, you would have the words imply that "most people" feel a certain way. These are not similar implications, Wiley. Please, get my words straight in your mind before you begin to dispute their meaning. I think "most people" who read my words knew my intent.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Mofoknows

Post Number: 55
Registered: Mar-06
King Jan, I am not a member of your court or a subject of your kingdom. Your threats mean absolutely nothing to me. I do not hold you in the esteem that some posters do. Report away. I'll tread anyway I dam# well please. Despite your insults, I see you didn't answer the inquiry. Get your words straight. Come on. I quoted you, you dope. How much straighter can you get? You could have just said, it's based on my experience. It's obvious you have a double standard. The one that applies to you-insult and demean at will. And one that applies to everyone else. Make sure you report that too. Sorry, Nuck and Art. But the bast@#d won't leave me alone.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8063
Registered: May-04


As requested, it has been reported.

Shall we move the thread forward or continue to wallow in this mire?


 

Bronze Member
Username: Mofoknows

Post Number: 57
Registered: Mar-06
Administrators,

Something should be done about forum contributor Jan Vigne. A multitude of his posts, although occasoinally containing useful comments, frequently resort to name calling and personal attacks on anyone who happens to disagree with his opinions. He then threatens to report the other individuals to you in an effort to have them banned from the forum. Unless I am mistaken, Ecoustics.com is not the personal or intellectual property of Mr. Vigne. How does he and his coterie of worhippers get away with this constant harassment of those who bring different points of view? In a particular thread, he called me an idiot numerous times. We should know if there is a double standard at work here-one for Vigne and one for the rest of us. Can he insult with impunity simply because he has over 8000 entries to his name? He is not the forum police-or is he? What gives him the right to threaten others with banishment? A response and/or action will be appreciated.

Sauce for the goose. Now we can move forward
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 2915
Registered: Feb-05
Another thread gone to pot. Jan, it's pretty apparent who started it this time. I doubt you meant to start another battle but you were certainly being provacative. Perhaps you two could just not respond to each other and instead just respond to the original question. Nothing from either of you merits being tossed from the forum at this point.

Dale, just because I respect the information that Jan imparts to us here does not mean that I or anyone else here worships him. He and I got into it pretty good last year over politics and it spilled over into other areas of the forum driving many good contributors away for quite sometime. Nobody won and we all lost. Jan and I agreed to not discuss politics and all is well.
 

Silver Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 469
Registered: Nov-05
Sorry to stick my nose in, but I feel Art is right.

Jan you stated: "From this point forward until you are finally removed from the forum, Wiley, I intend to ignore you and have nothing further to say to you. I expect you to do exactly the same. Do not mention my name. Do not make any reference to me or anything I post. Ignore me, Wiley, as thoroughly as I intend to ignore you.


Maybe you should stick to that Jan, although I realize it's hard to hold your tongue when it come to Mr Wiley.

 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 870
Registered: May-05
Like Art, I was reading along and enjoying the thread, and then kablooey, we went off the deep end again.

Here's the actual quote, "Most people who feel tube based amplification doesn't do something "right" have not heard tubes matched to the correct speakers."

Here's what most people would take it to mean. Those people who feel tube amplication is not accurate, have not heard tubes matched to correct speakers. In other words, Jan has opined that the people who complain about whether tubes are inaccurate may not have heard their best match. Is it conjecture, yeah probably. Is is a reasonable inference based upon talking and discussing the subject with 1000s of customers over his career, probably yes again.

Did Jan say that "most people" feel that way. He did not. He picked a specific pool of people and offered an opinion about why they have a problem with tubes. Is his opinion open to dispute, it may be.

Is the statement, "Is this based on your personal observation?" the best way to question his opinion. Probably not, I suspect it goes without saying if you read any, some or most of Jan's 8000+ posts, that many of his responses are based upon his personal experience, tied to his knowledge and understanding. Geez, I generally come at things the same way. Imagine that?

The next statement, "Or do you have objective data to support such a broad assertion?" seems a reasonable one and suggests that if it is Jan's opinion, maybe he has something other than a subjective belief to support it. Now, I read Jan's response, I wouldn't call it an answer, and I think he took the ole if "I give them a little information, they should be able to discern the answer for themselves approach," possibly with a triple twist thrown in for style points.

The last statements, "I know many "golden-earred" audiophiles who would beg to differ with your conclusion. But I wouldn't claim that "most people" feel that way, appears to be the classic "I know you are but what am I" response, dressed up with bigger words and a little more attitude. And, may have been appropriate given the tenor of Jan's initial response.

Now, it's really fun for me to use my psych undergrad degree (to decipher your guys' real meanings) and my law degree (to mediate these ongoing disputes so you two can better communicate)but pretty soon my lovely wife is going to want to get involved and just send both you two to your separate rooms.

Now, can't we all just get along and knock off the adolescent, "mine's bigger than yours" routine. OK, I feel much better now.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8069
Registered: May-04


Art & Rantz - Perhaps you're correct, the responses should simply follow the spirit of the thread. While my answer might have been provocative, it was provoked by a response which deviated from the spirit of this thread. With the past history of the respondent, its intent was clear; don't you think? Provocation begets provocation when historically one has been burned. My feeling is the response to my post is sufficient evidence of the intent in the question. It wouldn't have mattered what answer I provided. That I responded at all that was what was needed to set off the flurry of vitriol. Show me my words that warranted being called a "bast@#d".


I'm not interested in threads constantly going into the toilet any more than any other member of the forum. There is an answer to the problem that is here at hand, however. As Rantz notes, I made my pitch to Wiley and he ignored it. Who then is guilty of provocation?



My comments to Wiley stand. It is within his power to cease this dispute.







 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8070
Registered: May-04


Dak - OK. That sounds like legalese to me. Tell me then; if someone has thrown a dozen bricks through your windows, what would be the logical assumption when you see them with another brick in their hand?


 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 871
Registered: May-05
Now, about Casey Stengall. OK, Nuck, I know you're Canadian so I'll let it pass but it's "Casey Stengel." I grew up playing at Casey Stengel field in Glendale, CA. and had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Maloprops of baseball, probably on a par with Yogi Berra, on several occasions. He was an original and a master manipulator of talent and baseball strategy.

Now, to address Nuck's original question, it takes math, people and statistics, AND, you know what they say about statistics.

Cost - that may be the easiest. Take products from each manufacturer, take MSRP or actual selling price and input in computer and divide number of each product into MSRP or actual sales price = COST? Oh, what about products resold as "B-Stock" or refurbished? What about products sold 2nd hand or 3rd hand. OUCH, my head is beginning to hurt and that wasn't so easy after all.

Ok, "longevity" will be much easier. We could gather lots and lots of information from every purchaser, repurchaser, ad infinitum, to determine how long specific products last. Unfortunately, we would have difficulty adjusting for misuse, stupidity, a defective product as opposed to a defective manufacture and similar factors to ascertain how well products last, i.e., longevity.

Quality? Oh man, I'm not going down that road, am I? We could make it easy and say, we take cost and divide by longevity, the smaller the number, the better the quality, right? For example, a receiver costs $500 and lasts 5 years is the same quality as $1000 receiver that lasts 10 years, right? OK, well maybe that won't work.

I know, I know, we'll just get everyone to vote. (Yeah, that works well in national elections, right? THIS NOT A SHOT AT ANY POLITICAL PARTY, CANDIDATE, OFFICE HOLDER, ETC. ETC. ETC.) OK, voting's probably not going to work either.

We could ask all the experts in audio to tell us which products have the best quality. OOPS, we already do that and they can't agree on anything, e.g., see prior discussions on ecoustics about speakers, amps, etc.

OK, Nuck, I give up, how we going to do it? LOL Dave
 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 872
Registered: May-05
Jan,

I'm not throwin' bricks, I'm just trying to calm the waters, AND, having a little fun in the tryin'.

I've watched from the sidelines as several of these disputes festered and I thought that Art's attempt to build bridges rather than tear them down was admirable.

I'm not inclined to get into the who started what first. You know that I respect you, respect your knowledge and your willingness to share it, on more occasions that I can count.

My concern is that sometimes people who are new, or newer, to the site, don't have a chance to get to know you and appreciate that knowledge and they're offput by the way you use your humor. I'm not, I happen to enjoy it immensely BUT not everyone has my approach to life.

Obviously, Dale doesn't appreciate it. I would just ask you to consider T-Man's initial foray into the forum and the conflict there. Yet, you two got to the point where you both got along, came to respect each other and we all benefited from your distinct talents and knowledge.

So, I'd like to give Dale a chance to settle in, if he can and will. Rather than run him off when I happen to appreciate some things he says. MHO anyway.

I'm putting down the bricks now and stepping away from your windows. LOL
 

Silver Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 470
Registered: Nov-05
"Tell me then; if someone has thrown a dozen bricks through your windows, what would be the logical assumption when you see them with another brick in their hand?"

Uh! That you should make sure any remaining windows are open [grin].

There are the cliches such as "turn the other cheek" and all that, but we don't wish to see the dropping of pants around here. Seriously, this clash of personalities won't end until you both kiss and make up or have at least one of you totally ignore the other. I see no other way unless the administator decides who gets KOed.



 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8072
Registered: May-04


Dak - I'm not expecting any bricks. I believe I've stated my preference for breaking bread rather than baking brickbats. I will discuss anything with anyone who provides logic or facts to go with their statements. If we disagree, we disagree. I have never harbored any ill feelings toward any member of the forum merely because we failed to see eye to eye. Disagreements are the stuff of life and come with the process. That we agree to discuss the issue with a calm mind is my intent. Should I disagree with your opinions or "facts", I think you'll find I bring my own to my side of the table. If that intimidates anyone I really cannot feel guilty of any wrong doing for that matter. No one should feel I have impugned their integrity or their manhood merely because I disagree. If anyone feels this is not true, you have my apologies.


Just to clarify, Wiley is not new to the forum. He was banned last September after putting in print his intent to continually harrass me. I assume he recently acquired a new ISP, including a new email address, and thought it was an opportunity to recommence his quest. I've taken my case to the administrator and his decision will be the determining factor.


Rantz - I feel I was fair in setting "stay away" guidelines in order to try to resolve this issue. Whether or not I did turn a cheek and whether I did that repeatedly in Wiley's previous incarnation is a matter of record. I remember the incidents while I don't expect anyone else should. I was the target, not you. Unfortunately, in this case, open windows let unwanted guests fly in your house.



As I've said, I've made my case to the administrator and anyone wishing to add their opinion to the issue can find the discussion at; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/suggestions/212811.html Anyone is welcome to put in a word for or against either or both sides.


 

Silver Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 471
Registered: Nov-05
Jan

There have been times we have not seen eye to eye as well, but we have both gotten well past that. This is not a case of who's right and who's wrong - that's easy enough for most to see. But I contend that the only way is to ignore this fellow and let the barbs bounce off - you have a thick enough hide. You don't need to defend yourself to the majority of us on this forum. If you ignore barking dogs they'll eventually forget what they were yapping about.


 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 2916
Registered: Feb-05
Shall we say 'nuff said and get on with it then. This was a pretty good thread. Jan your points (as to the original question from Nuck) are well taken and I think agree with what I said (relative to system synergy) but with more detail. Would you agree?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1915
Registered: Dec-04
How about this one.

List Price=+45%.
Warranty Repairs=5% drop for minor, 10% major and 15% repeats, 15% out of warranty if under 40% of list, 35% if out of warrant outside of 10 yrs, 50% if inside 10 yrs.
5 yrs with minimal problems +25%.
10% for sounding loke crud with cheap speakers, 10%+ if the unit makes them sound good.

JD Power must do this(they do everything else, and Darn I wish I hadda bought shares in 1988).

OK break out the slides rules, guys.

I'm gonna break out a pint.
I'm the idea guy after all, y'all add the'pretty black dots'.

SKOL!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8073
Registered: May-04


"Would you agree?"


Yess'm, Mr. Nuck, yess'm. You be de idea man! Yess'm!


 

Bronze Member
Username: Ravbains

MelbourneAustralia

Post Number: 12
Registered: Mar-06
Hi Nuck,

sounds like a great idea.

But for me I am finding more fun to be had with the old/pre-loved stuff. I just use the web as a resource to figure out which gear is well built and sounds good. (Your hard earned $$$ sure goes a lot further with 2nd hand gear.)

Major digression from thread follows >>>>>>>>>

I am currently putting together a system for my BIL. I have bought an ex-demo PM-17 Mk2 KIS, and just a couple of days ago bought this as the source....



Upload


This machine sounds sweet to me, and weighs a hefty 27 kgs. Somehow I cannot see my BIL getting his "new" CDP, I think this one is a keeper. He may just have to live with my JVC XL-Z1050TN, after I have modded it a little.....

cheers
Rav
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8078
Registered: May-04


Art - Sorry abut the "yess'm" comments, I got my "pretty black dots" similes mixed with my Gone With the Wind metaphors.

Are you asking whether I agree KT88's have more punch than EL34's? Definitely. While I could be happy with a EL34 based amp and the correct speaker combination, if I where going to have a library which required a consistent bit of "up and at 'em" sound, 6550's/KT88's would be the better choice between the two tubes. But either tube will still probably be working through an output transformer and will have a higher output impedance than a typical transistor amplifier which requires no transformer between the outputs and the speaker. That was my point in system matching. "Quality" of one component can be swamped by not taking advantage of, or totally ignoring, system synergy.


However, it would appear you have done a good job of buying both quality and good value in the components you've chosen, Art. I don't really know your speakers that well. Would you consider them a "tube friendly" design?



 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 2917
Registered: Feb-05
It appears that they are Jan. They don't present a problem relative to impedence swing. They play consistently beautiful to any volume I care to listen with any type of music that I care to hear. I've found that type of system synergy that I've been looking for and the price was right. It's a grand feeling.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8084
Registered: May-04


Sounds like you found a good deal.


 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1932
Registered: Dec-04
I can see your smile in the text, Art!
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1934
Registered: Dec-04
Hey Rav, so you be in the previously enjoyed market pretty well, eh?
Great, every time I see a homeless piece, I have to shy away because my Borders want to work me over pretty badly.
Government blooksuckers!
OK I am better now.

Your mods sound great, you do all the work yourself, do you?
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 2922
Registered: Feb-05
BTW Nuck I was listening to the Rogue Audio EL34 integrated today with Studio 20v3's and a Rotel CD player. It's just amazing how the Studio 20's just take to the tubes. It sounded wonderful. I like my setup better but it was very nice (note the ongoing smile).
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1937
Registered: Dec-04
Which Rotel was it, Art?
Not the good old 1072?
that looks like a nice match with the Rogue.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 2923
Registered: Feb-05
It was the 1072. I have a very fond place in my audio heart for Rotel gear. I must say that my memories of Rotel are far fonder than those of NAD.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Basicaudio

Chula vista, Ca US

Post Number: 27
Registered: Mar-06
must be nice being able to afford good quality tubes matched with the right speaker system and cd player...
I've heard the good clean sound of well matched tubes in high end stores.
but i'm stuck with solid state. to my ears, solid state is good for HT, but for pure music, gotta have tubes! that's my preference. too bad i don't have such a system.

so i'm stuck with my super high end audiovox amplifier and theater research speaker system and
jensen cd player....SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING...WHAT A MATCH UP!
almost equally as good sounding as the bose lifestyle 48 at $4k...
blow away all of your TUBES...
you know i'm kidding right? If i wasn't i'd belong to the the INSANE ASYLUM rather than AUDIOASYLUM!
psychoecoustic rather than ECOUSTIC.

I cannot see how can anyone with all seriousness knock on high end TUBE AMPS. Sure there are well made solid states, but tubes definitely have their benefits in clean satifisying sound! so who wants to donate their TUBE AMPS for charity? might as well donate everything else that matches well with such amps. mismatching is disaster. just imagine matching a nice TUBE amp with a BOSE ACOUSTIMASS?
that is like giving you a nice gourmet dinner and giving you gasoline to drink!
those who don't like tubes have no idea what they are missing. can't be a hypocrite but i do know they sound great even though i can only afford solid state.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ravbains

MelbourneAustralia

Post Number: 15
Registered: Mar-06
Hi Nuck,

on the mods, I plan to do the work myself on the JVC XL-Z1050TN. I plan to change op-amps, capacitors, and also fit an clock module, from an excellent local company called Burson. $125AUD for a clock module, not bad value....

http://users.tpg.com.au/myfdd78/Burson_Clock.htm

For my Sony XA-5ES machine I am having the work done by a local mod shop, www.soundlabs.com.au. Since I don't yet feel confident enough to work on a machine as complex as the Sony, plus I don't want to break it, since it is in mint condition.

At the moment I am restoring my old A60 amplifier for use in a 2nd system. But I am awiating some parts from the UK. And next I will turn my attention to the JVC player.

Hopefully I don't fry the A60, since it is a real sweet amp, and it was in fully functional condition before I stripped it down....

Best wishes
Rav
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 2947
Registered: Feb-05
Jim, you can get tubes pretty inexpensively these days. Just check the internet. There are a whole bunch of great inexpensive tube integrateds. One caution...don't even look at the Jolida's. They are simply not well made.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ravbains

MelbourneAustralia

Post Number: 16
Registered: Mar-06
Hi all,

although I am barely qualified. I will throw my hat into the ring in terms of valves versus solid state....

Everytime I have heard a good valve amp, it has sounded great. I have listened to a VSE design valve power amp, a VSE valve pre-amp, and also hybrid designs like the Musical Fidelity Nu/Tri/Mu-Vista series "super-integrated" amps. All have sounded nice, there is a pleasing linearity, and freedom of harsh transistory type artifacts. Very nice :-)


Jan: My limited understanding is that valves are best driving a higher output impedance, that is the reason why valve amps have output transformers, to perform impedance matching. I guess this adds to the cost/complexity of a valve power amp. But nonetheless, I believe in pure sonic terms valves have the edge, whereas solid state designs have an advantage in terms of wide compatibility with various speaker loads and sensitivities.

BTW the French manufacturer, Lavardin, states that the inherent superiority of valves compared to transistors, is due to the inherent memory effect of transistors. They say valves are free of this dynamic type of distortion. They say that when you pass a heavy current through a transistor, there is a memory effect such that in a short period of time the performance of the transistor is not as linear as it should be. They state that the device takes a finite period of time to recover to its normal state. I dunno if I have explained that very well!!!

Anyhows, Lavardin claim that they have engineered output transistors that have an extremely low "memory" effect. They claim that their amps have a valve like sound, but with all the benefits of solid state also, like good power output, good drive etc etc.

I have never been lucky enough to hear a Lavardin amp, but I know they are universally well received both by press and end users alike.

But for me, for the time being, I must stick with solid state. Since I have an adorable little 3 year old rascal running around the house, who also takes a passing interest in daddy's hifi. So for safety reasons, hot output tubes are not really acceptable for me!!!

ciao
Rav
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8113
Registered: May-04


Well, vacuum tubes/valves have a much higher inherent output impedance than a conventional transistor. Output transformers are typically used to perform impedance matching, as you suggest, but this still leaves most tube amplifiers with a bit to a great deal higher output impedance than a typical direct coupled solid state output device. Depending on the quality of the output transformer and the design topology of the amplifier's output stages, a tube amp will have anywhere from 0.5 to 3 Ohms output impedance at the 8 Ohm tap. It is typical to find solid state amplifiers which dispense with any output protection circuitry and utilize no capacitors in the output to speaker interface having output impedance levels from 0.1 to 0.001 Ohms. How sensitive an amplifier will be to unusual speaker loads is somewhat determined by other factors beyond mere output impedance since the output transformer also acts to isolate the output tubes from the back EMF developed by the loudspeaker. This was covered briefly in a recent thread dealing with negative feedback and its effects on an amplifier's performance. So, this is really just another case of give a little and take a little. Both type of outputs have distinct advantages which can be exploited by competent designers.


There are also output transformerless valve designs, or OTL's. These dispense with the output transformer and connect the output tubes in parallel in order to lower the output impedance. The best known of the OTL designs would be the Futtermans which make for interesting reading if you place the name in a search engine.




Many theories have been postulated regarding the difference in the sound quality of tubes vs. transistors, bi-polar PNP/NPN types being the most common outputs in a solid state amplifier. The idea of the signal passing through a vacuum rather than sand (silicon) is one idea that has some adherents. For the most part tubes are still considered the most linear gain device overall even after 100 years of development and 50 years being considered an obsolete technology.



Lavardin joins the long list of solid state manufacturers who try to make their amplifiers sound like tube products. Not many tube manufacturers try to make their products sound like solid state.


With a child around the house, tubes will require extra care. Possibly you might want to consider a hybrid product combining valves and solid state devices. Should you wish to go this route, I would suggest you invetsigate any of the hybrids which use tubes and MOSFETs rather than bi-polar devices. FETs have a sound and operation more similar to a valve and I think make better companions in any one system.




 

Bronze Member
Username: Ravbains

MelbourneAustralia

Post Number: 17
Registered: Mar-06
Jan,

thanks for the response, you certainly have a more in depth knowledge than I possess.

Interesting reading, I certainly appreciate your erudite posts!

At the moment though it is shortage of funds, more than any choice of technology that's holding me up.

I have been trying to evolve my system using the DIY path, since it is fun and relatively inexpensive. So far I have only made some DIY power leads and interconnects. But I am currently trying to restore and upgrade my old A&R Cambridge A60 amp, but the job is on hold awaiting parts from the UK. Next I have several planned mods for my JVC XL-Z1050TN CD player, but I guess I should take it one step at a time.

-cheers, and best wishes
Rav
 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 880
Registered: May-05
Art,

Glad you're enjoying your tubes/valves. Likewise, I can't say that I'm in absolute audio nirvana but the joy of listening to pure, 2 channel music has returned and it's interesting to see how often I now choose sound over sight for relaxation. Couldn't say that a year ago.

Jan, again, I wasn't pointing fingers, just making an observation. Although, it appears that the continuing conduct of Mr. Wiley took care of the issue in any event, enough said.

Now, if any of you can explain why a 40 year old amp, 30 year old speakers and a 4 year old CDP can best all this new, expensive stuff I've been listening to in the last year, that really would be erudite and intellectual. LOL

(No Art, I still haven't heard the Studio 20s and, in fact, I'm beginning to believe that they're a figment of your imagination.)
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 2950
Registered: Feb-05
LOL !!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8135
Registered: May-04


The four year old CDP is the one I can't explain.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 1976
Registered: Dec-04
If there were indeed a 35 year old cdp, Geraldo Rivera would unearth the thing in Jan's basement.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Basicaudio

Chula vista, Ca US

Post Number: 31
Registered: Mar-06
I guess when the apes take over the planet in the near future, we will all be listening to the dog listening to that old phonograph from RCA?
or we can always go back to the boombox?
being an older design doesn't necessarily mean inferior or i guess those of us who are aging would be obsolte than right? which means our wives or girlfriend's can replace us with NEWER MODELS like we do with audio!

good example of vintage is the old SDA series by polk and the RS series of infinty compared their new series. there has always been great vintage design as well as new design. i suggest if you guys aren't happy with your system, i'll be glad to receive it as a DONATION?
all i can afford these days is 1970 kraco system!
 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 891
Registered: May-05
Jan,

The 4 year old CDP fell into my lap from another one of those Portland, OR area audiophiles, who got through expensive gear every year or two. (No, it wasn't Art in this case. LOL)

I'm afraid it doesn't really fit in with its high tech brushed aluminum look next to all that pretty wood but it sure delivers the goods, so to speak.

Now, anyone want to comment on how a $100, including shipping, set of ICs can alter sound and space so much? I'm still baffled, but pleasantly so, for sure.

If this keeps up, I'm going to be buying Nuck's foil in wholesale lots pretty soon.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 1998
Registered: Dec-04
Dave, bear in mind, the foil was delivered in time for April 1.
Just for giggles, but Jan and Art both tried it, I just know it!
The whole thing died out pretty quickly, thankfully so.
Dave, I missed your IC's what did you end up with?
 

New member
Username: Josh_ua

Post Number: 3
Registered: Apr-06
Hi all,
This is my second post (Nuck, this will sound very familiar!), and I hope I am posting in the right area. My short request is I was hoping people could give me feedback on the orb audio speakers and Olive's Musica system in terms of quality/longevity vs. cost.

My long request is that I want to acquire all new components. I much prefer simple and quality over bells and whistles. I have done some research, but I know just enough to sound dumb. I really need some help

Here are the facts: I plan on spending about $3000 total, but will be building this over time. I need new speakers. I would like a system to handle cds, records, dvd player, am/fm and internet radio and an ipod. I have limited space (live in SF). I have been looking at orb audio for my speakers (mod 2 package). I was also looking at the Olive Musica in order to:
*easily 'burn' my records
*have a high quality cd player
*have access to internet radio
*release me from my pc and
*at some time be able to stream music into other rooms (although this would necessitate the purchase of a home -- a little out of my budget).

I guess I would also need an amp/pre-amp as well. First off, are these two items worth the money - more than half my budget, and what else would I need? I am not in need of a true "home theater" system. I really just want fantastic sound for audio (my tastes are all over the place -- some rock, some jazz, etc.) on a limited budget. Anyone care to give a confused person some guidance?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2093
Registered: Dec-04
Joshua, I have nothing to suggest at this time except freebies.

You want to be free of the your pc, but want internet radio.

Have a high quality cd player.

Want fries with that.

Joshua, I want everything to all people, too.
It just ain't gonna work that way, so much as I can help.
You really must decide what you want.
We just cannot have it all, you see.
My suggestion, at first blush, would be a high quality stereo system, the same thing I suggest to any other new aquantance on the forum with similar circumstances and desires.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2094
Registered: Dec-04
I suggest you re-read from the top, Joshua.
The post was created to deliver the most quality to the most people for the most reasonable amount of money, and I believe that,more or less, the thread has done so.
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