I been reading your posts on here for years now. I use to come here alot but lost interest over the years because of some people.
Anyways i know you had a Denon while back with Missions. I also ran my old Mission 700 speakers with Denon AVR 1803. Since than i have upgraded to Paradigm Studio 60 v3 with CC570 and Studio 40's with Rotel RSX 1067.
My question to you is. I gave my couple year old DENON avr 1803 to my dad to run his paradigms he just bought. They are the Studio 40's for the front with CC470. He is 62 and does not care about top of the line receiver long as it sounds good to him. I also gave him my MISSION MS8 Sub.
I like to know what settings would be good to run these. So far this is what i have setup for him:
Distance to all his speakers are 9 feet Front R +6 center +6 Front L +6 Surround L +5 Surround R +5 SW +3 Sub NORMAL ( i dont know if it should be at +main) Cross over @ 80 hz Speakers all set to "SMALL" Cross over on the SUB 150 hz (all the way up) BASS +2 Treble -2
Now this is from Denon 1803.
Wanted to know what your setup is with your DENON and the Missions you have? I have the volume at -15 to play at a decent level before the speakers start to clip. Should i set the settings down on the receiver? What would you recommend?
Well, what I can tell you about my old system is that I had my Mission speakers set for "Small" (an appropriate setting as they do not go as deep as your father's Paradigm's Studio 40s), but I did not fiddle with the speaker level settings, but left them at "0". As I see it, AVRs allow you to adjust the relative level of each speaker to account for anomolies in the room and/or speaker location. However, this does not seem to be a problem with your father's system as you say each speaker is about 9' from his listening location--that is near perfect, IMO. The balance of this system is is confirmed by the fact that you have all speakers set within 1db of each other--the fronts being all the same. So why have you set the speakers at +6db? I think the reason your system is clipping is that you are over-driving the pre-amp (not the amp). By backing down the speaker level settings, you get the pre-amp back to a level that is within its comfortable operating range. Now, I recognize the 1803 is a budget AVR, but it is a pretty good piece of gear, particularly for the money. Nevertheless, driving Studio 40s is a tall order for that receiver as I estimate the actually deliverable power (when driving all five speakers) is probably no more than 30-35 wpc. Now, this may or may not be sufficnet for your Dad. So, I would suggest you do two things: First, set all speaker levels to "0." Second, I would turn off the rear speakers. See how the system does with just the front three speakers powered. By shutting off the power to the rears, it frees a lot of current to go to the fronts, and should allow the deliverable power to increase by another 20wpc (again, my estimate). Doing this will give you a better handle on how well the 1803 can drive the Studio 40s.
Those Paradigms are pretty efficient, but I also know they can require a lot of current to really get the sound levels up, depending upon what your father wants. I know my wife doesn't like loud music, but she loves the HT system because she can hear the dialogue better (if I played music as loud as she listens to the tv through the HT system, she would be complaining no end!). In other words, while the Paradigms are pretty efficient at 1watt/1 meter (89db, I believe), to get the levels up from there to desired listening level may take some more power than you have--you will just have to see. If the 1803 has no problem, add the surrounds back and compare. If you still have a problem, we can talk about your options--I don't think replacing the receiver is necessary--not at all.
Now, this may still not result in the sound you and your father want to hear. Sound is very subjective as you well know. But I would also suggest that you set the front speakers to "Large" rather than to "Small" (I would leave the rear speakers as "Small"). I can understand why you set them to small in the first place--puts less strain on the amp which is already apparently straining. Still, those Studio 40s are far more capable of full range reproduction than my old Missions, and I would think that the listening experience would be enhanced by a setting of Large which will give a more realistic soundfield. This might ultimately be more satisfying to listen to. From there, I would be prepared to adjust the cross-over point of the sub. 150hz is getting into bass information that is directional, thus further upsetting your listening experience. Try taking it down to 120hz or 100hz, or even 80hz. Again, one must experiment to determine what works best. Where is the sub located in the room?
BTW, congrats on your new system. A Rotel receiver with Paradigm speakers is not a system I have heard, but you certainly have me intrigued--seems to be it would be a great combo.
I will try what you have recommended. If it still does not work for him than i will convince him to get something with more juice to run these speakers without any damage to them. I been reading your posts and know you like Outlaw audio gear which i been looking at for him. If he could spend little more extra on his system than i was looking at the Outlaw 970 with 7125 combo. It would be good for the budget and be a better choice to run these speakers.
The Denon AVR 1803 does not have pre-amp outs. That's why i was thinking about the Outlaw 970. If it was to have a pre-amp out than i would have just got the 7125 and save some money for him.
Also the reason i set the L/C/R volume level to +6 was to fill his room more with sound. He has a 20' x 15' room and setting the speakers to "0" did not fill the listening area. But i will turn it down to "0" and try again.
Another question is what is a good level to listen to HT Hawk? What does your wife like the volume to be at. For some reason my dad like his movies Loud and music low. Go figure. Old guy's. :-)
It's not just old guys! My wife likes her movies loud and her music low. I think it is because she wants to hear the dialogue. I tend to be just the opposite, where I like my music loud and my movies low. I guess I'm just weird!
Sounds like your dad's room is similar in size to my own, although I have 18' ceilings, which really absorbs the sound. However, rather than go the seperates route, I would check into either an NAD T753 or an Outlaw 1070 receiver. Either will have plenty of power for the Paradigms and will save you some serious money over the separates.
I did set all the Volume levels to "0" for my dad today like you have suggested. The Denon Avr 1803 has surround speakers on/off button. I turned the Surrounds OFF. Turned down the Sub to about 120hz, but left the speakers all at "SMALL".
Anyways i think this took some stress out of the Receiver and is working much better now. I put on Enemy at the Gates DVD and sounded very good. You have to have the volume level at -7 to get the sound at a good listening level.
I will play around with the settings more but so far this setup sounds good.
I also replaced his 16 gauge wires with 12 gauge. Some of his wires where not in good condition. So all those got replaced.
Is -5 Volume Good level to listen to HT Hawk? It is plenty loud at this level for him. I think turning up to "0" will put more strain on his system. I told him to keep it down a little on the Volume when watching movies so he doesn't put too much load on it. He tried the volume at "0" which is a THX reference number i think for volume but it is loud on his system and worried he could damage the speakers.
We are going to look into a new receiver for him pretty soon. He said long as it is not very expensive we are OK. But so far things are going good. The Clipping from the speakers are gone.
I am very glad I could help. As for listening levels, I don't think you should worry about getting it up to -5 or even 0, if that is what your dad is comfortable with. As I mentioned before, I believe it was the pre-amp section that was clipping. By dailing the individual speaker levels down from +6 to 0, I think you have eliminated clipping in the pre-amp. Although a volume level of "0" would seem to suggest that you are at max volume, that has not been my experience. I think almost any receiver I have heard has a little more reserve power that a volume setting of "0" would suggest (without clipping), but of course, you must test this yourself.
BTW, good job spotting the worn out wires your dad had--changing them can only improve the signal. I recently unpacked some old Monster Cable speaker wire (8 gauge) I used in my old system and I was shocked at how oxidized it had become. I haven't used this wire since we moved to Colorado 4 years ago. This may be the result of the fact we used to live near the sea, and I just didn't notice before now how strange it looks, but under its clear jacket you can clearly see it has turned a greenish-black. I have to believe this is oxidation, and it must impair the electrical signal.
BTW, what constitutes "not very expensive"? I would love to know--LOL! ! ! !
