Hi. I'd like to get some opinions on a budget integrated with a phono stage to match with my Spica TC-50's. Among the new stuff, I'm caught between a Rotel RA-02 and NAD C320BEE (with a PP-2 phono stage). I'm also considering a NAD C852, but I'm not sure if it may have too much power for the Spica's (and how much more it would cost). I also read good things on the phono stage of a Rega Brio, but I tend to favor a pre-amp section with (defeatable) tone controls and a headphone jack, which the Rega does not have. Btw, can I also use the NAD or Rotel as a pre-amp?
I listen to a wide variety of music, and I just want something for enjoying my LP's without fatigue...at a budget. I also prefer a laid-back (as opposed to a forward-sounding) presentation.
Since I'm only interested in a phono stage for this system, feel free to suggest what else I can do to match my Spica's at a similar (or better yet, lesser) price range. Thanks!
Ooops, sorry if my post wasn't clear. I meant to say I was more concerned with the phono section of the NAD C320BEE (with a PP-2) or Rotel RA-02 integrated, and how it each of 'em would relate with the Spica's.
My turntable's an AR ES-1 with a Rega RB-300 tonearm using a Sumiko Blue Point cartridge. I'm looking for a new integrated amp.
Realistic budget? Around the range of the Rotel and NAD (unless there's anything else you may suggest). If you feel that a used phono-preamp for the NAD (for example: Mus. Fidelity X-LP) would be an improvement over the NAD PP-2, I'm open to suggestions. If you're familiar with the characteristics of the Spica's, that would also be a lot of help. I hope that's clearer now.
Yes, I know the Spica's well. They are slightly laid back and moer than transparent enough to reflect what you place in front of them. What you place in front of them becomes what you wish to hear. Do you want the slightly cool but punchy sound of the Rotel? Do you prefer the less cool sound, but still transistorized, sound of the NAD. Are you matching personalities or merely frequency balance and gross characteristics? The Rotel is slghtly "brighter" than the NAD and will bring some treble emphasis to the Spica's tweeter. Not a bad thing in that the TC50 was intentionally rolled off in the highs. Not an all together good thing either as the TC50's Audax tweeter was not all that expensive and could be a bit rough when fed the wrong signal. Your Sumiko cartridge already has some raggedness at its top end. Do you wish to play that up or down. You've got an interesting combination of choices that will make matching a matter of how you wish your music to be presented.
You are in the end not interested in the NAD 320bee itself since it is the phono unit you are interested in. It can be placed with anything. As can any phono pre amp. Tubes do very well with the Spicas and there are more than enough tube based amps on the used market that would easily suit the TC-50's or you can look at the new tube based phono section from Bellari for around $200. Match it with appropriate electronics and you should be quite surprised with the performance of Mr. Bau's little wedge shaped speaker.
Yup, you surely know your TC50's. In fact, you're right that tubes work well with it. I used to have a Dynaco 70 and a PAS-3 that spoiled me with the sound I heard from the TC50's using those units.
However, because of where I'm from, lack of availability/service of tube amps make it a hassle to maintain. Only a small circle of people know how to tweak/repair these here, and I decided to put my foot down on being at their mercy for reasons too numerous to mention (price factor is one). I realize that going for a budget solid-state from those Dynaco classics may be considered a downgrade (& a bitter pill to swallow), but I'm ready to accept that since playing LP's is no longer the priority it once was for me. This won't be my "main" system for sure, but if-and-when I feel the need to go back to vinyl (in another room), a low-maintenace solid-state component would be acceptable as long as it's still musical and warm enough to enjoy.
Having said that, let's assume I end up with the Rotel. Because of the Sumiko cartridge I'm using, you're saying that it may come out ragged in the highs despite the rolloff on the TC50's. My Sumiko is actually on it's twilight period, and I have a Shure V15VxMR waiting in line when the Sumiko wears out. To my ears, the Shure had less emphasis on the highs when I compared the 2 cartridges, but that was when I still had the Dynaco's. Do you think the Shure will be a better match for the Rotel/Spica combo? Or will it still sound too bright and crisp?
I think most people would consider the Sumiko to be a "rock and roll" cartridge and not a Bill Evans jazz trio or Mozart string quartet cartridge. Combined with the Rotel you would probably get some very dynamic music at the expense of some smoothness. The soundstage is likely to be much more forward than with most other combinations you've mentioned. Again, that's not a bad thing as the Spica's can sound almost too relaxed at times.
However, if you bought the Spicas for some reason other than being laid back, you will probably find the Sumiko/Rotel combination a bit fatiguing or, at least, not that interesting. The Shure will definitely give the smoothness to the top end without removing the frequency extension (actually probably improving the extension) of the Blue Point. Its presentational style is more in keeping with the Spicas.
Back to the amplification. Personally I wouldn't be too concerned about service on a tube product today. Firstly because most equipment has become more reliable over the last decade, and, secondly, virtually no one does repairs on high end equipment outside of the factory. Almost anything you buy will be sent back to the manufacturer or a regional service center for repairs. That will be true of tubes or solid state. You might want to check for repair centers if this is a concern for you should you still be considering the NAD or Rotel. There just aren't many places where you walk in with your amplifier under your arm to get it serviced any longer. Therefore, I would still consider the Bellari tube pre amp for your phono. Otherwise are we still talking either the Rotel or the NAD? There are some other lines available as new that you wouldn't be able to audition without incurring a fee for return shipping should you decide against the unit. And the pre owned market would still be a good place to look for a good value.
From the outside looking in, this would be where Bryston 7's step in. These amps will not discolour the source in the least, will not add or subtract anything, and would push that kit to the max. Absolutely.
It's not my money, but if I had the kit as you describe, Fagen, I would be checking into Bryston.
Thanks for the feedback, guys. Although my audio-hobby-days are no longer what they used to be 15-20 years ago, I still find myself tweaking around even when I try to keep things simple (lol). As I look back, I realize that once I got past the "ear training stage" (back when I was younger), the search for the absolute sound never stopped like a continuous thrill-ride (regardless of budget/technology) everytime a component needed to be replaced or added. I'm sure a lot of you can relate to what I'm sayin'. Hey, that's part of the fun, isn't it?
Jan, if I DO end up with the Rotel amp, it may not take long before I switch to the Shure cartridge. Your points were very concise and well taken. I appreciate the time you took to provide me your feedback.
Nuck, thanks for the overwhelming compliment. A Bryston 7, eh? I hope that won't hurt the budget, but I'll definitely look into it.
I expect to make up my mind soon, and the feedback helps me narrow-down my options (at least I think so, hehe). Btw, other suggestions (if any) are still welcome.
Of the three options you laid out in your first post, personally, I would go for the Rega. It has a more nuanced sound, to my ear, than either the Rotel or NAD. For my money the Rotel is too mechanical and the NAD doesn't get the beginning of the notes correct. The NAD always appears to be trying to hard to be "musical" to my tastes. I am, however, in the minority on that opinion it would seem.
The Rega is emminently musical and "danceable". Its employment of pace, rhythm and timing (PRaT) is unforced and essential to the enjoyment of music in my opinion. It gives up a bit to some hard driving music and can be slightly bettered by other amplifiers in areas such as soundstaging and imaging. The Rega's presentational style, however, is well suited to the Spicas and with those speakers running on the Rega its minor faults should be minimized while the Spica's strengths should be maximized. Unless you listen primarily to music which requires a hard beat to drive the music I would not stray from the Rega at this point. If you wish to shop the new equipment market. Check with Rega but I believe you'll find the Rega's tone controls are out of the circuit when in center detent position. No "tone defeat" is thus required. You can add a headphone amp if that is needed.
Alternately, I would suggest a used McIntosh integrated amplifier or receiver which has been through the service department in the last five years to check for faulty capacitors. A MA6200 can be had for a reasonable sum and will provide and excellent match for the Spicas and reliability as good or better than the other options mentioned here.
Fagen, there is the advice from one of the forum's old sage's.And for free. My Bryston suggestion may have been out of line, but with a stand-alone pre for the phono, a fine choice.I love to spend Fagen's money. You seem a fine gent Fagen, underbuying is just heartache after headache. Do it right the first time, or buy the stuff we sell because we didn't do it right the first time.
Good points again. I really had it down to a choice between the Rega and the Shure/Rotel combo. Deep down, I always suspected that the Rega was the budget phono amp for me, and Jan's post confirmed that suspicion. Despite the lack of tone controls on the Brio, I'm confident that Rega can prove to me they're unnecessary. My problem is the availability of the unit.
I'm actually from Manila, and to tell you about the audio situation here would be another thread. I don't feel safe with the used audio market here as well. I've already had more than one bad experience with it, so that's that. Assuming I'm going for a new amp, the Rotel and Nad are the ones immediately available to me (the Nad phono stage on order basis only). I would have to drive to another part of town just to see if there's a Rega around (counting on luck). I have yet to schedule this...
OR...I can order it online. Any of you know a U.S.-based site (from the UK would cost me more...long story) where I can get the Rega for a good price? I need to get it for a low price as the shipping costs would kill me. Still, the Rega is above the price range I had in mind, and I think that's the dilemma (but let's see).
Otherwise, I could go for the cheaper option of matching the Rotel with the Shure cartridge for the Spica's. Maybe I'll be able to live with that. Nuck, you're right about doing it right the first time. You don't want the possibility of later saying, "I shouldn't have settled for this...". Been there, done that.
Sadly, the Rega wasn't available in my area as far as I knew, so I went for the Rotel RA-02 instead. To begin with, I got it dirt cheap (under $340/br. new). Soundwise, it "barely" passed my satisfaction level (whew!), especially when I removed the Sumiko and put in the Shure. Both cartridges sounded just like the way you described it would with the TC-50's. The Rotel/Shure combo gave me an overall presentation that I didn't find fatiguing, despite it's flaws (you're right on the Rotel's mechanical character). However, my main beef with it was that on certain recordings, there would be a few musical passages where I found the upper midrange area (my guess around 2.5 to 4.5Hz)to be harsh and somewhat annoying. I'm not quite sure what's causing this, but I hope it eventually goes away through the continuing break-in process.
So my question is this: Since the Rotel is now part of the system, the best thing for me to do would be to use proper matching to get the most out of it. Which phono cartridges would you recommend for future use with the Rotel/Spica combo? I don't think the Shure model I'm using is still available, but surely there's got to be a better cartridge to match with my existing system.
Thanks Jan. I'd appreciate your feedback if you're still with me.
