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Bronze Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 72 Registered: Jun-05 | What i'm wondering is, if the most i ever listen is 85db, and this uses say 30w on peak transients, would there be any advantage at all (or dissadvantage) in having a 400w amp over a 40w amp? the figures above are a thumb-suck to make the point, but i'm also wondering what they would in fact be i.e how much power would i need to play my dynaudio focus 140's(flattish 4 ohm and 87db) at 85 db without noticing ANY loss of performance due to insufficient power on bass heavy music? i've wondered along these lines before, but now that i'm concidering a 50w nait5i for my dynaudios the question has come up again. thanks for any input, b. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2798 Registered: Feb-05 | That Naim Nait 5i is a great amp especially if you'll be playing alot of beat music. It feels like a whole lot more than 50 watts. I just went from a 250 watt per channel power amp with my Studio 20's to a 40 watt integrated and have gained in performance. It has as much to do with (a) the quality of the amp, (b) your application for the amp. A high quality amp like the Naim should give you everything you need to comfortably drive your speakers to well above 90db without ever losing its composure. Enjoy! |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 955 Registered: May-05 | I completely agree with everything Art said. Also, I think Naim uses a different type of power supply - fully regulated? I can't explain it as well as others here could, esp Frank Abella and Jan Vigne. If you're worried about peak power for transients, the Nait 5i is capable of 500 watts into 1 ohm peak. I don't think your going to exhaust that with the level you claim to listen to. When I heard it, the salesman drove it way past what I would ever drive it to to prove how worthless the 50 watts figure is. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1453 Registered: Dec-04 | Stu, which speakers did the salesguy run for the way too loud test? Your reference towards Frank and Jan is commendable, Frank is current in all things amplified. |
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Bronze Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 74 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks for the replies. youve put my mind to rest re the nait5i, but i'm still interested in the question of whether there is any advantage to having more power on tap than you'll use? i remember a thread a long time ago, think it was sun king talking about the nad 370(125w) versus the nad 320(50w) and saying that the extra watts of the bigger amp gave for a better performance at all levels of listning, including very low levels. wondering if there is any sence behind this idea? cheers b. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 52 Registered: Apr-05 | Bvan, I would say that as power specifications increase, better parts are incorporated into the amplifier...bigger and better power supplies, bigger capacitors, etc. Also, the higher power amplifiers may incorporate more advanced circuit designs. So, it should follow that better parts and more advanced designs translate to better sound quality even at low listening levels. This logic probably applies when comparing models from one manufacturer, as opposed to models from different manufacturers. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2809 Registered: Feb-05 | Bvan, SunKIng was correct as it applies to the NAD's but the NAIM is another league altogether. The Naim will give better performance than any of the classic NAD's at any listening level. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7640 Registered: May-04 | Here I go again. Disagreeing with what someone has posted. The logic of better parts generally does not apply to the high end market. In high end audio it doesn't work quite the same as a Ford to a Jaguar (which isn't a good analogy any longer) or a Fiat to a Ferrarri. Others are free to disagreee with my assessment but I consider a company's quality to be based on whether you can open the least and most expensive amplifiers they produce and see the sibling rivalry between the sprinting runt and the star quarterback. Similar design concepts almost always yield similar sound and reliability. A company which clearly puts forth its ideas, both in parts quality and sound quality will get my vote as a company to pay attention to. As to which amplifier you should buy from that company, that's a difficult assessment. As in all things audio, you can make a case for this or that, higher power or lower power. A general sense of ease and unlimited dynamics are most often atttributed to (very) high powered amplifiers. Not surprisingly, these are generally attributes of live music. Soundstaging is often broader and deeper with higher power amplifiers, but you could argue this is due to subtle distortions which are not present in the lower powered amplifiers. In most cases, the difference from lowest to highest power in a given line will amount to a higher parts count and more complex signal path in the larger amplifier. That can present problems which are usually dealt with by way of price in the high end market. As a group I would estimate that most of the people I worked with, salespeople, technicians and the occasional factory rep, almost always agreed the smaller amplifiers within a line sounded "better" than the largest. Even when we occasionally enjoyed the larger for certain pieces of music. The smaller amplifiers will typically have a reduced parts count, often run at lower average voltages and a simpler signal path. Most importantly, most small wattage amplifiers will employ one set of output devices to reach fifty watts or so, tube or transistor, which are more likely to be closely matched to one another. All the components which support the output devices wiil be easier to match also. This matching is possible in higher powered amplifiers but gets expensive and at their limits, or as the components age, the deterioration, particulalry in tubes, is not likely to be at the same rate across the board. (Unless the manufacturer decides to pot everything. Then you replace modules instead of parts when the amplifier requires service. Obviously, you don't pot tubes but you should pot the transformers.) If you listen to a line of amplifiers, I think you'll often find the smallest to have a touch of sweetness and believability which the largest lacks. On the other hand, the largest has that sense of ease which might be missing from the smaller amp, even at low volumes. Not quite a muscle car analogy, as you can make up for a lot from a small engine with the gearing, but the lighter engine will usually add to handling prowess, while there is no substitute for massive amounts of torque. Are you going straight ahead or do you like the bends and curves? Muscle or nuance? Being contrary one more time, we can assume the recorded music we listen to has a dynamic scale of about 20dB max. (If you listen to music which is an exception to this, you should take that into consideration.) From that we know the amplifier we use should be able to produce 20 times the average power we use to accomplish those peaks. Determine what your volume preferences are and where your speakers place your average wattage for your preferred listening level. (Do you want to be restrained by the amplifier's ability or not?) Normally, this average power output for many listeners is beneath six watts. This would suggest you should be looking at an amplifier that can swing enough voltage to produce 120 watts, using Ohm's Law of current, voltage and impedance/resistance, into your loudspeakers. At least on the short term. Do your speakers present any challenges to the amplifier to deliver current at low impedances? It is not only the impedance at any frequency but the electrical phase angle which determines how difficult a speaker will make the task of the amplifier. Most high end speakers can be researched enough to know whether they are a light or heavy load on the amplifier. Size and number of drivers plays little part in this quality of a speaker. Then determine how you will get to that highest needed wattage number. You would normally look at the current delivery of a solid state amplifier into a demanding load. The amplifier either has the current and voltage on hand in its supply capacitors or it has to draw it from the wall as needed. Both methods can produce acceptable results on most music. Having a very large capacitive reserve in the power supply is the preferred route of most high end amplifiers and certainly should be the path taken for high wattage amplifiers. Mega-capacitance is expensive and heavy. During the late 1980's manufacturers in the high end began advertising just how "fully" regulated their power supplies were with many levels of regulation for various amplifier stages being common in most high end amplifiers and certainly most solid state amplifiers. The regulation gave the amplifier a very "in control" feel even with lower wattage amplifiers (think Mark Levinson, though low wattage is not their ball game). In some cases it gave the feeling of over regulation and added a sense of restraint to the amplifier on dynamic peaks. Budget high end amplifiers taught the lesson that a bit less regulation can be a good thing (when wisely applied) since the amplifier's power supply can swing for the fences on peaks and hope nothing comes along immediately after the power supply has been drained to challenge the reservoir capacitors until they have a chance to recharge. If you thrive on Mahler, Strauss and Tower of Power, then the amp is going to have to suck juice from the wall; and since the power supply caps can only recharge at a given rate, there might not be enough power to handle the next big drum whack or the horn section coming in full blast. When that situation arises and the power supply has been drained, the amplifier will clip. Now, how do you wish to hear clipping? Obviously, not at all, but you should know what will happen when your amplifier runs out of steam. As we probably all know, tubes and MOSFET's clip differently than bipolar transistors. Tube watts are often described as twice the apparent wattage compared to bipolars for this reason. Acting in a somewhat similar fashion, tubes and MOSFET's are considered voltage driven devices while bipolars operate with current. Tubes and MOSFET's will do what we call "soft clipping" correctly and not as NAD would have it occur. Tubes and MOSFET's, particularly tubes, however, seldom have the current drive of a bipolar device. But they will both clip more "gracefully" when paired with speakers which do not demand current from an amplifier. The lesson here, other than intelligent system matching, is if you are going to drive the amplifier into clipping, even momentarily, know how the amplifier will react and what you can consider acceptable. If you've made the concession to lower sensitivity speakers to gain smoother frequency response, know what your speakers demand of the amplifier. If the speaker has a difficult to drive impedance swing combined with a hard phase angle (lots of frequency compensation networks in a Thiel crossover), you will probably appreciate an amplifier with the ability to either handle the situation with reserve power on hand or to, at the very least, cover its bu++ with some degree of grace. All of the above means there is no simple answer to the original question. Know what your music and speakers demand of the amplifier and then decide whether you will buy an amplifier that meets the needs of these speakers or whether you will plan ahead to the next possible speaker. I wish it could be made more simply than what I've laid out, but that is the reason there are hundreds of amplifiers to choose from. Each designer will go about the job of deciding what the amplifier will do and then you have to find the designer who meets your goals. My best advice is to examine the power supply of the amplifier. When I was selling I often wished I could take the top cover off an amplifier to show someone what they would be buying compared to the competition. An audio amplifier is a modulated power supply plain and simple. The better the power supply works to satisfy the demands of your system and music, the better the amplifier will fit in your system. http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/powersupply.pdf#search='power%20supply%20capacitors' http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ssps1_e.html |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2810 Registered: Feb-05 | So the point being, do you think that the Naim Nait 5i will drive the Dynaudio Focus 140's to 85db comfortably? I do. The manufacturers websites as well first hand experience with the products (which I'm sure you have too Jan) tells me what I need to know to answer that specific question, IMO. I don't think you were being contrary Jan, just educating as opposed to answering the specific question. Your posts are always interesting and informational. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7644 Registered: May-04 | "The Focus 140's listening-window response measures +0.79/--4.09 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The --3-dB point is at 53 Hz, and the --6-dB point is at 44 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.35 ohms at 164 Hz and a phase angle of --48.21 degrees at 91 Hz." http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/1205dynaudio/index2.html "The Nait 5i is approximately 17 inches wide, 12 inches deep, and 3 inches high. It puts out 50 watts into an 8-ohm load, so my best guess is that the little Nait is pumping at least 100 watts into my 4-ohm Grands." This is only a guess, there are no measurements in the review. "The 5i is dead quiet, and it drove my 90dB Dali Grands with no problem at normal to slightly loud listening levels, but strained a bit when playing at concert levels. I have a large listening room, and it takes a lot of volume to create concert levels. I rarely listen that loud, so this was not a normal problem for me. If you listen at high levels, or have inefficient speakers, this may not be the amp for you." http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/naim_nait5i.htm "The Nait5Os thirty watts worked with most speakers that I listened to it with, but the new Nait5i has almost double the power and on rock material, you can really hear the difference. Tonally, the Nait5i reminds me more of the older Nait3, which had some extra energy on top and was certainly very exciting." "At under $1,400, the Nait5i is a very good choice if you are looking for something simple that works well with Spendor, Harbeth, Neat, Meadowlark, Royd, and ProAc." http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/viewpoint/0604/lessismore.htm The Dynaudios have a somewhat difficult phase angle for an amplifier to deal with, though with 100 watts capacity there is plenty of power to go around. The difficulties, however, are at frequencies which will be presented to the main amplifier even if a subwoofer is in the system. The Focus 140's are also, at 85dB, not what I would consider an efficient loudspeaker. I know both companies but not the specific products we are discussing here. I don't think there is an answer to be had here. With the difficulties the speaker will present to the amplifier the best suggestion is to give it a try and decide after an audition whether the amplifier suits your needs. I cannot say anything bad about the amplifier (particularly without hearing it) but Naim has always been, despite their pedigree, a company that is not going to be a universal application. The sound of the speakers mentioned in the "Enjoy the Music" article are not what I would consider to be similar in personality to the Dynaudios (well, maybe the ProAcs). That match up is a more personal decision however. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2813 Registered: Feb-05 | The Spendor's are the most similar to the Dynaudio with regards to efficiency and the ProAc's as regards the sound. I agree with Jan ofcourse that a home audition is the only way to know for sure. One thing to consider is what is mentioned in a quote contained in Jan's post. The Dynaudio/Naim matchup will be good for low to medium volumes as you mentioned in your original post but it will not likely play loud with any degree of finesse. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 957 Registered: May-05 | Nuck - "Stu, which speakers did the salesguy run for the way too loud test?" Linn Katan. I have no idea of the specs on them though. |
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Bronze Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 76 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks very much for that, particularly your posts jan. very informative. i'm feeling pretty confident about buying blind now, based on my listning requirements and all the glowing testimonials i've read. i've read many people enthusing about the dynaudio/nait combo, but also about the spendor/nait combo, so that is interesting. i think i read frank saying that he thought the spendors best qualities were not that well matched with naim, or something to that effect(correct me here frank). the spendor s5e has been the one speaker i've always thought i would like, but have never had the chance to hear, yet i'm very happy with my dynes so who know? you heard the s5e jan? found the slight disparity in specs interesting. dynaudio publishes 86db, -3bd@41hz. the later figure might be in-room rather than quasi-anechoic? i get to 30hz without going under 6db. though i dont really understand how you can meaningfully publish an in-room measurement as the reading will be hugely dependent on room nodes. interesting also that you dont think relieving the amp of sub 80hz work would free it up to fight the impedence dips and phase shifts to any substantial degree. must help a bit though no? (me just guessing here) thanks again for helping out on this one, b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7651 Registered: May-04 | "you heard the s5e jan?" Nope. Spendor has been fairly consistent in their sound over the years and they would be a speaker I would easily consider auditioning should I be in the market for speakers. One member of the forum loves his smaller Spendors while another member thought less highly of her larger Spendors. Me, I would probably go with Harbeths since they have the most similar "BBC" style sound I am familiar with. I've enjoyed all of the Dynaudios I've heard though they seem to have strayed slightly from where they positioned when I purchased the Dynaudio D-28 soft dome tweeters many years ago. Their drivers are still fantastic, just a bit brighter on top (though more nimble through the already very good bottom end) than what I purchased. I have to admit to only hearing their HT speakers for the last few years. They are excellent quality at every price range, among the best in my opinion, but not the same as they were back when. Oh, well, different strokes/different folks/different times. The 80Hz Xo would place the lowest impedance point of the 140's an octave above the crossover frequency. The 91Hz location of the most difficult to drive phase angle would still present that load to an amplifier whose response is not significantly lowered until it reaches well beneath 80Hz. That means no help from the subwoofer crossover as far as the main amplifier is concerned. That doesn't mean the Naim won't work with the Dynaudios, it will just have a bit of difficulty in those areas. How much it affects the sound is hard to tell without more information concerning both products. If the problem areas in the speakers are fairly high Q in nature, you might never notice the effects of slightly less current delivery at such a high frequency where the impedance dips. The phase angle situation is again something that isn't spelled out in the articles and might go virtually unnoticed on music as opposed to a test bench. The indicated test bench results, however, would indicate there are probably better electrical matches than the 140's and the 5i. Not finding the entire impedance curve/phase angle available for the 140's, I slightly hesitate in suggesting a transformer coupled tube or MOSFET amplifier would probably work well with the Dynaudios. Do you need an integrated amplifier? Have you considered a passive line stage and a power amplifier? Does your system preclude that option? |
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Bronze Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 78 Registered: Jun-05 | you got me confused and interested now. do you mean by " I slightly hesitate in suggesting a transformer coupled tube or MOSFET amplifier would probably work well with the Dynaudios" that the tube/mosfet option possibly be UNwise? also i'm not sure what a transformer coupled tube amp is? is that a hybrid a'la jolida/unico etc had not concidered seperates. why a passive line stage? one system requirement i do have is a 'unity gain'/'ht bypass'. also on the shortlist was the moon i5. but i've been thinking(as per my other new thread) about eventually ditching my arcam which has the multichannel preamp and which i was going to use to power the rears(the naim the fronts), and simply use 2x nait5i or 2x unison unico or the like for a 4.1 system which is what i want to end up with. thanks for the help jan, b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7655 Registered: May-04 | "Overall then, a brilliant alternative to the Niam/Cyrus/Arcam (etc) treadmill - if you want something a little different, yet no less competent (or flawed!) then this is a brilliant bet. It's very rare to find sound and especially build quality at this price and it offers a superb option in the midprice integrated market. Bellisimo!" http://www.upscaleaudio.com/updates/unicorev.htm Unfortunately, I cannot find any technical information that would help me with matching the Dynaudios to the Unico. I will go out on a limb and suggest that the additional power from the Unison product along with the softer clipping characterisitcs of the MOSFET outputs would give you plenty of slack with the load of your present speakers. The Unico's toroidal transformer is hefty and the build quality has never been an issue in any review I've read of the amplifier. The Unison seems to lack nothing the Naim does well and provides the Italian flare for the dramatic to boot. My temptation would be to go with the Unico. My statement was intended to mean a transformer coupled tube or a MOSFET output amplifier would work well with the Dynaudios. Virtually all tube power amp sections are transformer coupled. This isolates the tube output stages from the vagaries of some speakers. However tubes prefer a speaker which tends to have a relatively flat impedance curve. It can be high or low as long as it stays reasonably flat. At this point I cannot determine just what the 140 does in terms of impedance but it would appear to be "reasonably" flat and therefore a decent match for a tube power amp, should you so decide. The passive pre amp question was merely in line with; "do you need an integrated amplifier?" Passive units can be less expensive and would allow more money for a power amp should that work in the system plans. However, passives also place several restrictions on the system and how it is set up, so they are not universal answers and I had no particular unit in mind. If you've been considering the Unico and it's in your price range, my feeling would be it will make a better match than the Naim and provide what is probably as good if not better sound with those speakers. As always, give a listen if possible before making the purchase. Each piece of gear can be great for one listener and not another. |
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Bronze Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 80 Registered: Jun-05 | the unico does look like a good bet and i've heard a many people saying they do work well with dynaudio. reading the nait review left also left me puzzling. the reviewer says the amp sounded dry and very disappointing with rca cables, and that this was fixed by using din connectors. but dont only naim cd players have din? surely not the arcam cd player he was using in for the review, or on my rega apollo? is he talking a cable with rca on one end and din on the other? how could the cables termination make such a difference, i fing it hard to believe. but reading that makes me think twice about partnering a nait5i with anything but a naim cd player. cheers b. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 964 Registered: May-05 | Bvan - Don't believe everything you read. That being said, the din connections don't just carry an audio signal. They also carry a ground (called earth in other places) connection and I believe a power connection. The CD5i tends to sound better through the din because when connected this way, they share a common ground point and I think they share power between the two to go where it's needed most at any point. I'm not too clear on the sharing power aspect of it though. I can't remember if this was in the Nait 5i/CD5i combo or not. I know their seperates work this way and upper end CD players have this element as well. For example, the Naim power amps power their pre-amps. I heard the Nait 5i/CD5i combo using both connections and their was a difference, but it really wasn't anything dramatic. I think it's definately dependant on the quality of power in your home. If the quality (cleanliness) of your electricity isn't an issue, then the effect of sharing a common ground point is diminished. If you're power is less than ideal, then it could have a bigger impact. Sharing a common ground will lead to increased clarity I believe. Again, I'm not an expert on any of this, I'm going by what I've read and have been told by the dealer. I may have confused a thing or two but don't think I'm that far off. As always, others here will probably be able to elaborate this better than I have. Personally I like the Naim and Rega combo very much. I'm shopping around now for an upgrade that I'm going to make this summer and it's at the top of my list. The Nait 5i and Planet combo sounded very good to me. I think the Cd5i is better, but I can very easily live with the Planet. What I like most about the Planet was I thought it was a little smoother than the CD5i. I haven't heard the Apollo yet, but everything I've seen and heard says it's heads and tails better than the Planet. The best way to see how the Apollo and Nait 5i sound together is to listen to them together. If what everyone is saying about the Apollo is true, the Nait/Apollo combo may sound better than the Nait/CD5i combo. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7661 Registered: May-04 | Frank might provide a better answer since he appears more familiar with the current Naim line up, but here goes. Similar to SP, I don't know what the provisions are for "power on" distribution in the currrent Naim line up. However, Naim has long been a staunch advocate of "star grounding" techniques. (http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=star%20grounding%20audio%20components) This arrangement of bringing all ground planes to a common earth connection is the best way to minimze the quiescent noise that exists in virtually all audio systems and individual components. The RCA connection has been dismissed out of hand by several high end companies because it, of all the possible connector types, that could have been chosen for consumer audio, represents the most likely to have faults. Years ago when I was doing professional audio, which includes RCA connectors on their products only as a concession to the occasional use of consumer audio products, I was told the common RCA connector was designed back in the 1930's as a way for the connector manufacturers to use up scrap metal left from all the good connectors they made. It makes sense since there is nothing electrically correct when it comes to a RCA plug or jack. It is not a self wiping termination; not even a secure connection let alone a self-locking connection, it is not gas tight so oxidation is present and degrading its performance from the moment it leaves the factory presses; and, most offensively, it is not a true 75 Ohm connection as specified, and assumed, by anyone using the connector for audio purposes. If the termination impedance is incorrect, the error throws all other calculations regarding transfer functions off-kilter. DIN and XLR connections, which are true 75 Ohm connections, are favored for essentially all of the above reasons that make an RCA undesireable. If a manufacturer uses an unusual connector not commonly found in consumer audio, they also usually provide an adaptor which will allow the component to be paired with other companys' products; though they will usually state in their owner's manual that the performance of their own product will possibly be degraded when it is used outside of their specified methods. Read the articles on star grounding. They will give some insight into some of the problems which plague most consumer audio equipment and possibly provide an idea or two on how to improve the performance of your system for very little cash outlay and effort. |
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Bronze Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 81 Registered: Jun-05 | after reading that jan i see the possible advantage of naims din cables. but can there be any common grounding between a naim(din) and a rega or arcam(rca) even if we use a converting cable? the reviewer seems to be pretty clear about the fact that this cable swap, from rca to din, happened before he got his hands on the cd5i, i.e with the arcam. i know, i probably shouldnt believe everything i read. but none of us likes reading words like 'very dissapointing' from a reviewer of a product were hoping to buy. the apollo i've heard and bought, the naim, if i go that route, i'll unfortunately have to buy without an audition as i'm not prepared to pay retail in australia(highway robbery) cheers b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7663 Registered: May-04 | " ... can there be any common grounding between a naim(din) and a rega or arcam(rca) even if we use a converting cable?" " ... the reviewer says the amp sounded dry and very disappointing with rca cables, and that this was fixed by using din connectors." You'll have to tell me if I'm correct since I didn't go searching for the comment, but I would assume your latter statement refers to the replacement DIN connectors being what comes with the Naim cables and then using a RCA adaptor. If that is the case, the star grounding techniques which Naim prefers could, depending on the quality of the other component, be compromised. Certainly the RCA connector does the Naim plan no favors. How much this compromise the system sound would be a matter of component matching. Naim is rather well known for preferring their own cables. Rather than the typical universal/scattershot method of enginering a consumer product to meet everyone's needs and requirements and failing at satisfying the most basic needs of their own gear, Naim has taken an approach seldom seen in consumer audio. They design their products to work as a system (almost to the point of arrogantly dismissing all other products) and therefore they consider the electrical conenction between components and amplifier/speaker to be a complete circuit. Most designers are forced, or accept, the concept that every component is an entity unto itself including cables and interconnects, which necessarily accepts known compromises in component sound quality. By ignoring the universality of their products Naim designers keep the entire circuit in mind and use those known parameters to gain the performance areas where they stand apart from the rest. It's not at all a bad way to look at equipment design and more manufacturers should make the same attempt. If they did, consumer audio would work with the same plug and play standards of pro audio (where input/output voltages and impedances are virtually always adhered to) and many of the problems commonly associated with high end audio would disappear, or at least be diminished. A simple change to a balanced line connection (XLR or DIN) between all components other than the speakers would allow an immediate 6dB lowering of the noise floor over what is available with an unbalanced, single ended (RCA) line connection. All the money spent for extreme high end gear that still uses the most rudimentary connectors and cable design fights against what the high end community claims they want. It is for no single, simple reason many engineers consider audiophiles to be laughable quacks. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 966 Registered: May-05 | I just found this - http://www.naimusa.com/html/nav_frames/frame_main.html Click on the Frequently Asked Questions link on the top. I hope it helps. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1222 Registered: Sep-04 | Hi there, I missed this thread - very interesting. I'm not sure if I'd partner a 140 with a Nait5i. I have this feeling that would be a big ask of the little nait. That said, the 110 is just as difficult (pretty much) to drive and that's a good pairing. If I get a chance I'll give it a go tomorrow. Jan is right about Naim's star-earth approach which is still true to this day. In an antirely Naim system, the whole circuit (CD, preamp and amp) is star earthed to the CD player's earth. Naim amps still sound best with Naim's own cables. However, the 5 series (of which the Nait is a member) has been designed to cope with any cables in order to be a bit more flexible - Naim's own cable is a bit of a big inflexible character at the best of times. We had the Spendors in the shop a few months ago. They were not our cup of tea and we gave them back. We have no idea how they get such great reviews - apart from for the fit and finish which are exemplary. I have tried RCA cables into Naim kit and the same RCA cables via cheap RCA->DIN Mayware adaptors and the DIN connections always win - even with the nasty Mayware adaptors in the way! And I'm talking serious cables too (up to £1000 for 1m). The Naim interconnect (which is free with Naim CD players) is usually the best solution. A close equivalent is Chord Chrysalis - a little splashy but energetic and communicative. A less splashy alternative is Chord Cobra. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7709 Registered: May-04 | Once again my experience with Naim is a decade old so things might have changed in that time. However, regarding cables, Naim included their cable in their conceptualization of their total circuit, as I have stated. I believe it was the 250 power amp which made the point most explicitly. Naim included none of the common inductors which typically follow the output transistors in most solid state power amps. These inductors become part of the feedback network and help the amplifier remain stable when faced with a difficult load along with other tasks. Instead Naim's speaker cable was designed with a higher than normal inductance spec to act as a stand in for these excluded components within the amplifier. Without a high inductance speaker cable in the circuit, Naim developed their reputation for instability when driving certain speaker loads and overall finicky temperament. All in all, it is a technical correct, though very 1930's, approach to design. If my memory serves me correctly, more or less the same was done with their interconnects except this time the substitute was made for capacitance. |