Hey H1p


Phil Krewer
Haven't heard from you in a while. I guess one of my post didn't make it on. I was wandering how the sub search was going. BTW, you're not going to believe this but I traded of my Denon. Anyway you're missed on the forum.


Hey man,

Na, a lot of stuff to do around the house...wife tolerates my obsessions only so far. Anyway, the sub-search is basically in the same state: narrowed down to about 5 that I'm motivated enough to demo in-home. The Infinity, the M&K K10/11, the Hsu VTF-2, an SVS unit, and a Pinnancle babyboomer. They all seem to review well with music, which as you know, is important to me...though some seem to be a better value than others.

Also, thanks for recommending the hometheaterforum.com. That's a great forum and I continue to rip throuh existing and archived threads trying to get up to speed and see who's who and where the preferences lie. In my few spare minutes I've been over there, with only a periodic glance over here...seemed like a slow week here.

I must say, I thought it was funny to read a somewhat similiar thread about HK/Denon (to ours)in which you towed your line and everyonoe was pretty civil. I thought everyone made good points.

WHAT! you traded in the Denon (wish I could do that with my wife this morning). Let me see if I can guess the replacement: HK? Alright, alright, I'll behave...it's still early EST.

What the heck did you get? or are you still shopping? Sunfire (too expensive), Marantz (to heavy sounding for a former Denon-owner), Parasound (nice), B&K (nice used, too epensive new), WHAT DID YOU GET??

Let me know and thanks for the bait Phil, I've been way too busy lately. Let me know what your thinking was/is about the upgrade/crossgrade, I am really curious!

Sh1t, you had me really considering the Denon!

All the best,


Phil Krewer

I still love the Denon, but I did something which may be incredible stupid. Tweeters had some old RX-V1s and I couldn't resist trying one out. I just wanted to see what a Flagship sounded like and I had read so many good things about the V1 sonically. I paid the same price $920, basically just a swap.

The way I saw it the only thing I was risking was the great deal I got on the 3803. Provided I want to go back to it. But there is another place in town that I was able to get the same deal from and could probably get again.

I also have a year in witch to upgrade to another unit if I choose to. Maybe a 4802, 4803 if one comes out, or perhaps a RX-Z1.

The RX-V1 is very sonically neutral and a step up from the 3803. But I'm not sure if its worth the loss of features of the 3803. Not to mention the new sound formats, most notibly DPLII. Hopefully, I'll find one of the DSPs to my likeing and be able to tune it to my satifaction. If I want to go back to the 3803 in a month and can't get the same price I'll be bumming.

You read the thread on Hometheaterforum. Sh1t, I should really keep my mouth shut. I tried to back out of it an finally did, but the guy kept comming back and I hate to back down, which is sometimes a flaw.

Yeah, I would love the B&K, but no can afford. Don't let this deter you if you were considering the Denon. Its an excellent receiver. I'm still experimenting with too much time on my hands at the moment.

Good to hear from you,


Nice post...and congrats on the Yam!

I was really close to getting a 5590 but for the lack of pre-ins I passed. I haven't looked at the V1, but what features are you lacking from the 3803?

Of course the thing attracting me to the 3803 are the dual burr-browns per channel...very nice, and the reason I bought the Yam DVC6480 DVD-a/v player. It's burr-browns are the reason it sounds so good.

Talk soon,


Phil Krewer

The difference in features, well this will most likely be a long post

The Yamaha has 10 Burr-brown dac I'm not sure of the configuration, but they are 96/24. All of the DACs of the 3803 are 192/24. I'm not really sure this make a difference at the moment

The Yaman has 6 pre-ins (additional pre-ins for the main and center/ and 9 preouts

The Denon has 8 pre-in/ 10 preouts

There is no bass management on the Yamaha
It also lack DTS-ES discrete, but really haven't noticed a difference between the Yamahas ES matrix. No DPLII, or Neo 6 on the Yamaha. No DTS 96/24.

No video upconversion. The Denon has the new 32bit hamerhead shark melody processor. In pure direct mode the Denon uses 4 DACs per channel. The Denon has burr-brown ADCs on each analog input. The inputs on the Yamaha are not assignable, but there are so many it doesn't matter. The Denon has 3 zones and 2 for the Yamaha.

The Yamaha has a built in graphic eq for both center and rear center, It also has cinema eq witch is adjustable for each channel. The Denon has Cinema Eq but not adjustable for each channel. But the Denon had a nice fader function for the front/rear speakers.

The amp section of the V1 is better. Of course it should be. It has and A/B for the mains and outputs for front effect speakers. The Denon has an A/B for the surrounds. So you could have had a quasi 9.1 setup.

The remote for the Yamaha bites even compaired to the Denon, lol.

BTW, I thought the 5590 had a 6 channel input. My 5490 did.

Anyway, thats all I can think of for now. As anthing you want.

Talk to you soon,


Phil Krewer
Hey H1p,

One more thing in the thread on Hometheater reveiw I wrote a compairison of the Denon and the Yamaha. Since I'm trying to learn the launguage to post such reviews can you read it and give me your opinion.


Pradeep Rao
Hi Guys
Sorrry to intrude but looking for some advice.
I am planning to buy a Home theater system. I am vacillating between a HK 7500 (only Europe/Asia), NAD T752 or a Denon 3802 receiver.
I was initially planning to go with some locally made electrostatic speakers as the fronts (very good for music) but some dealer said they wouldn't have enough bang for movies.(have to check them out yet) I liked the Infinity Kappa 600 speakers but for music it sounds a bit harsh. The dealer says that they require breaking in for sometime & he has just got them. Does anyone have experience with these? or with the Klipsch Rf7's? Which is the better speaker? Which of the 3 above recievers would you guys recommend?

Phil Krewer

I have not heard the Kappa 600s, but the dealer is correct. The tweeters are metal coated with ceramic and will take sometime to break in. Once they break in the sonic character will change. That being said I would try and audition ones that have already been broken in.

H1p will have to tell you about the HK and the NAD. I like the 3803 and I'm sure I would like the 3802, but you have to decide this. Just listen to all three on the speakers you are interested in and buy what sounds the best to you.


Hi Pradeep,

First off your question is certainly no intrusion. Welcome!

Phil is right that speakers most definitely need to break-in. That goes for all speakers, but easpecially for metal-based or treated drivers. MOst dealers will break-in their floor models, so make sure you give him a few days to a week before doing a healthy demo.

Unfortunately for NAD, they sound quite nice on music, but given their problems in the past couple of model years I just wouldn't drop that kind of money. Having said that, HK had some issues with the 320/520 line last year but all seems remedied in the 325/525/7200 line. I have the 525 and love it, but I'd love to blind test the 3802/3 with the HK, and see which I'd gravitate towards.

I think I'd happily take either one home! Both are incredibly well equiped, though with slightly different feature sets.

Check the specs, and then go listen in earnest.

Good luck!


Pradeep Rao
Thanks for the reply, guys
I cannot demo the amp I want with the speakers I want. (simply because the consumer is not king in India)
The HK 7500 sounded by far the best of the three, but it was also on the best speakers of the lot (the kappa's)
I think I will probably buy that one & then lug it around to demo the 3 speakers I am thinking of, to see how they sound. (Infinity, Cadence ES & Klipsch Rf 5/7)


And I thought salesmen with snotty attitudes were a pain...but not being able to demo gear that costs that much...yow!

Be warned, the HK is about 50 pounds...

Congrats and let us know how you make out!


Hey Phil,

I'm totally going to check out your comparison post as soon as I can get over there.

I officially hate HTF.com because that loser "repstein" wouldn't let me use "hip*ster"

What if my name was hippocrates and my last name was webster...puh-lease, who does that guy think he is?


Phil Krewer

Yeah, it took me like 5 tries with different names to finally get legal to post. Its very frustrating. But, I wanted to post so I conformed to their rules.



Arvind Chadda
Hi! Mr. Pradeep Rao,

I was in India a few months ago and had a chance to demo the Cadence ES speakers. They really sounded beautiful with HT. IMO the older versions(sq. Boxes) sound far more dynamic than their new model. I do not know if they are still available but they are worth every penny. do give them a hear. Should do an excellent job with the HK7000.

Hey H1 & Phil,

Well I am still with the yamaha 5590 (if u guys remember me from the thread on 192 khz DAC).

BTW phil, i too must thank you for the hometheaterforum.com link.

Now getting back to the actual reason of this post. Am hoping that since you guys have played around with yamaha and so many other receivers, you cld help me here.

1) Where/how do you find out if the yamaha receiver upsamples or not? My 5590 manual is woefully terrible. First of all, it says that 5590 has 96 khz DAC. Crutchfield notes that this is a error in the manual. Second yamaha says that most of the digital features won't be available for any thing more than 48 khz input signal. What does this mean?

2) Does HK525 allow you to send multi channel pre-outs to the zone 2?


Phil Krewer

You're welcome, glad I could help. The manual is wrong the 5590 has 192/24 DACS. To my knowledge the 5590 nor any Yamaha upsamples. The only reciever that I know of that upsamples is the Onkyo. The 797 only did this for the main channels, but it only had two 192/24 DACs. The new ones have six, I believe.

I'm not sure what they're refering to about the 48htz input signal. Maybe, they're just saying that most media will not go beyond this. Maybe you can give some more info.

H1 will have to answer about the HK525.



Well here is what the owner's manual says - i typed it word to word as in the manual

quote " Notes on the Digital Signal
The digital input jacks of this unit can handle up to a 96 khz sampling digital signal. Both OPTICAL and COAXIAL input jacks can be used to input the digital signal up to 48 khz. However when inputting a higher digital signal than 48 khz, be aware of the following points.

* DSP programs cannot be selected. Sound will be output as normal 2-channel stereo sound from only left and right main speakers. " un-quote

right...the multichannel question.

Well I think the answer is yes and no (helpful huh?).

(assuming that the input to the reciever would be the multi-channel in):

By "no" I mean that you couldn't take the input signal, output it from the HK's 2-channel 2nd zone out and expect to get the full multichannel signal.

By "yes" I mean that you could take the multi-channel preouts and run them to a multi-channel amp in your second zone and that would work.

I don't know if that answers your question, but that's waht I inferred.

I also have a call into HK support to see how they answer the 192khz DAC question. I'll let you know,


Phil Krewer
What page or section are you looking at.


Well what i am actually asking is that whether its possible to simultaneouly redirected a different source to the multi-channel pre-outs. So that say one can watch DVD movie in zone 1, while the zone 2 outputs digitial cable. I would guess not, but i wanted confirmation all the same. Also yamaha 5590 has a restriction that the zone 2 pre-outs can only output signals received from the analog (stereo) inputs. So I would have to connect say my DVD player to the receiver thru analog stereo inputs if i want to use zone 2 functionality. Does your 525 have the same restriction?

I found some more similar statements peppered in the manual

1) pg-29 - the one quoted by me
2) pg-30 - under "Notes"
3) pg 32 - under "Note" for "Virtual Cinema DSP"
and "Silent Cinema DSP"
There could be more. Was wondering if your high end receiver has the same restrictions. BTW, I checked the manual for 5550 and its in the same boat.

Phil Krewer

Yes the V1 has the same restriction I doubt that the Z1 has the same as it is compatable with DTS 96/24. This would also apply to any receiver that is 96/24 compatable



Does this mean only certain DTS signals are encoded at 96 khz? I was under the impression that all audio channels in DD-5.1 as well as DTS 5.1 recordings were encoded at 96 khz (or at least greater than 48 khz)

Phil Krewer

That was my impression as well, but I checked this by turning off the effect for several DVDs on my Yam and it said that the signal was 48 khz 3/3 for DTS-ES and 3/2 for the rest. The only DTS cd that I have is 44.1 khz. So I guess that DTS 96/24 and DVD-A, which I think is 192/24 and possibly SACD are the only ones above 48. I'm not aware of any recievers that decodes DVD-A, but I'm not sure why they don't make one.



No reciever (in the foreseeable future) *will* decode DVD-A becasue of the record industry...that's where the clamp-down is.

They are scared crap that with such high resoution digital signals that pirating incredibly high-quality rips would be a very real possibility (128kb Mp3 is one thing, 192khz is another).

Because of this the spec that emerged from the DVD-A standards body stated that DVD-A must leave the player in analog only (hence the 5.1 analog outs on DVD-A players and the increasing importance of having pre-ins on receivers). No digital connection can pass the DVD-A signal to an external decoder...nutty huh?

I read a great article on this about two months ago...I'll try and dig up the link.

RIAA sucks! (you may think that's Recording Industry Association of America...but actually it's Rich Ignorant A$$hole Association)


Thanks Phil,

I too checked the sampling rate of all the DVDs i have by turning off the effects and did not find a single one above 46 khz. I don't have a SACD or DVD-A player. Anyways DVD-A is copyrighted too like SACD. They will only output analog 5.1 which is why there are no DVD-A decoders in the receivers. I read this somewhere in link below which is a great link BTW. Try to go thru it if u can, esp the associated DVD tutorials.


Anyways so basically the 192 khz feature is useless which was one of the reasons i upgraded from 5550. I think i shall go back to 5550 or a denon 1803 or 2803

Phil Krewer
Hey H1p and Karthik,

Thanks for the info I hadn't looked too closely at this as I don't have a DVD-A or a SACD player. I'm looking into getting the C-920. H1p, it does look like the best price/performance player out there.

Karthik, there are other reasons to keep the 5590 other than the DACs. Personally, I think that the sound quality is richer than the 5550 and the 5550 is only 5.1. But, having said that if you can return it, I'd get the RX-V1300 instead. If you do decide to return to the 5550 then unless you make use of the S-video switching there's not much differece with the 5540, which you can get for $150.

The funny thing about the DVD-A situation is that people will design software to copy them anyway. Same thing with regular video DVDs. There is software that will copy any DVD that is less than 4.7G and you can get software that will split larger movies into 2 DVDs with no loss in quality. Of course, I'm probably breaking forum rules by writing this at all ;-).

Anyway, lots of good info here and it really does suck.


Rich Boxscore
Have a Yahama rx-v1000 receiver and I'm getting popping and drop-out on any bitstream digital source through the optical or coax inputs. When I switch my sources to PCM - I do get ProLogic without the popping, etc. I think this may be becuase the sources are doing the decoding in this mode and not my receiver...

Any thoughts on what may be wrong...


debating between vsx912k an 41 elite, butwould like not to have 4are5 remotes pioner play and sinco start for my tape and cd, prefer 7&1 are8&1. both pioneers in400.$ class, would like equal power to all chanels. all good for a oupple of years guess. Help ?
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