Break in period for electronics -- Myth or reality?

 

Bronze Member
Username: Ptarmigan

Post Number: 12
Registered: Nov-05
I know of some audio experts whom I respect who ridicule the idea of a break in period for electronics. Speakers, well maybe some, but electronics, absurd! All in your imagination; hype from manufacturers to get you used to bad gear.
I have read comments from people saying their DACs or amp sounded rough until they ran them for 24 hours continuously, and then they sounded warm and sweet.
This is what happened to me. And it was not my imagination. I had other gear hooked up as a baseline to compare my new gear against.
A week ago I got a new Marantz SR4600 receiver. I wasn't expecting miracles out it, but I was tired of fiddling with the erratic connections on my old amp, a Yamaha CA-1010 Class A/AB amp weighing about 60 pounds that uses electricity like a space heater. I wanted something reliable, and if it didn't use as much electricity, that would be nice, too.
In short, I didn't expect it to sound as good as my Yamaha. But when I hooked up the Marantz I was still disappointed by the overly bright, harsh sound. My first thought was that the marketing dept had pushed the engineers into going with an overly bright sound, and that the Class B circuitry needed to run 7 amps at 80 watts had resulted in poor transistor biasing.
I thought to myself that I should have bought the Marantz PM-7200 for a few bucks more. I then tried bypassing the DACs by using my Sony DVP-S7000 as an analog source and heard significant improvement in the warmth and stereo imaging with the analog source. The Marantz DACs sounded brighter with more high end - a seductive advantage. But it was still not as good as the Yamaha. The main problem was that string sections sometimes sounded harsh. And the more I listened to symphonic music, the more I noticed the harshness, and the more it annoyed me. I was using it for 2-3 hours at a stretch for the first four days, and it was not improving, though there was a slight improvement after it had been on a couple of hours.
I next tried using the Yamaha as a power amp hooked to the Marantz pre-outs. Again, some improvement, but I was still disappointed by the sound. It was still harsh, over-bright and the stereo imaging was not as good as my old setup.
Finally, after five days I said the heck with it, reconnected the Yamaha to all the analog inputs and left the digital inputs connected to the Marantz. I had a set of Mission speakers on each amp.
I went back to using the Yamaha to listen to, but left the Marantz turned on, even over night. After all, it doesn't use much juice in idle. Every few hours I would switch on the sound from the Marantz. To my surprise, after 24 hours it sounded warm and sweet, much like the Yamaha.
When I compared CDs through the Marantz DACs and the Sony analog they now sounded virtually identical. The Marantz now no longer sounded brighter, but had a warm sound with plenty of detail and strong imaging, including front to back.
When I tried my Sony XA1ES, a very good CD player, but not as good as the S7000, the Marantz DACs now sounded better than the XA1ES through analog.
While the Marantz does not sound identical to the Yamaha now, I would say it is now at least its equal, overall. There is no longer any irritating harshness. There is more bass from the Marantz, a touch more treble and detail, but not the brightness that bothered me. Whether it is as warm as the Yamaha is hard to say, but it sounds as good. In short, I am thoroughly enjoying listening to the Marantz.
I have been an audiophile since I was a kid listening to a Fisher 500B on Altec Lansing speakers, later owning several pieces of Marantz gear over the years, not to mention a NAD receiver, so I know what good, warm sound is. And I had a baseline to compare the changes in the Marantz against. So I did not imagine the shift in sound quality, contrary to the "audio critics" out there.
The question is, what happened?
And how common is this?
It seems to me the shift sounded like a change in the transistor biasing from a bad Class B to a well-tuned Class B, or whatever is used in these days of IC circuits.
Could the voltage of the ciruit have shifted, perhaps due to evaporation of something from the transformer? Could there be a temperature sensor regulating the bias circuit that needed breaking in? Or do the transistors and DACs just need some use to get biased correctly?
Does anyone know the truth?
And while we're at it, how long do people find is necessary for the break in period on electronics?


 

Gold Member
Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala The Occupation

Post Number: 2827
Registered: Mar-05
I can't offer an technical explanations, but I experienced something like this with my digital Panasonic sa-xr55 which I left running for about 16 hours a day for 3 days. For whatever reason I have heard that the all-digitals especially need a burn in, but I have read of people contacting Panasonic directly to ask about this and being told that there's no such thing.

Oh well, I don't believe in the fancy cables hoodoo so I guess this is my bit of chosen audio irrationalism.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ptarmigan

Post Number: 25
Registered: Nov-05
I contacted Marantz and got a prompt reply from a vp agreeing that it does occur. He said the burn in increases the dynamic range, and is related to the caps, transformer and transistors. I then asked for advice, and he suggested two or three days straight at varying volumes.
Nice to see a company with genuine customer service.
 

Gold Member
Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala The Occupation

Post Number: 2829
Registered: Mar-05
Wow, nice to hear that! Sure wish Marantz would crank out a more solid, feature-rich version of the xr55. Though it would probably be very costly for them to change all their assembly lines since nobody would bother buying their analog receivers any more.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cuylar

MN USA

Post Number: 17
Registered: Nov-05
is this for real? seriously? No moving parts guys/gals. What is burning in? is something dissolving inside the caps and transistors? no. For some electrical equipment (ie. a computer) you should "burn-in" the equipment to ensure that the heatsink and all cooling equipment are running properly but not in consumer electronics.

The very idea of a digital componet wearing in boggles my mind as much as that rumor that plasma tvs will leak and need a refil every year. Who comes up with this trash? its the kids at retail stores trying to avoid a return.

the speakers YES. they will break in. but continuous or not a module, resistor, cap, transformer, etc..... will NOT require a burn-in.
 

Anonymous
 
Speaking of customer service last week I asked NAD what the current capability was on their range of stereo integrated amplifiers (classic models) and received not a word. They claim full disclosure............my @rse! I'm starting to worry about my S250 purchase (nice sounding amp) as I may need an amp to drive tricky loads although I still have a week to return it :-) Agree though at least the Marantz US team don't ignore you and have a go at answering queries.

"My first thought was that the marketing dept had pushed the engineers into going with an overly bright sound, and that the Class B circuitry needed to run 7 amps at 80 watts had resulted in poor transistor biasing. "

So J are you saying that the SR4600 delivers 7 amps of peak current per channel before clipping? That does seem quite low but I do wonder what the norm is for receivers in the SR4600's price class as Marantz tend to do well when bench tested at least for watts anyway. I've compared the amp section on my lowly Marantz receiver to that on the S250 and must say the dynamics, control and image stability are way ahead with the NAD (a step closer to the cinema me thinks) and still using the pre/pro section of the Marantz. I just daren't crank the volume up like before as the dynamics can get scary :-) More current in receivers please or at least honest disclosure .......pretty please.

Agree with KZ some kit I have tried has definately benefitted from some initial mileage for instance Cambridge Audio amplifiers. One well know example of burn in regarding capacitors are the BlackGate range from Rubycon.They are notorious for requiring a lengthy burn in just read some of the feedback on the diyaudio forums and elsewhere. Personally I believe burn in does occur but not on all kit just some and I for one certainly don't feel kit that does is necessarily poorly designed.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ptarmigan

Post Number: 26
Registered: Nov-05
Sorry, 7 amps = 7 amplifiers. I.e., 7 channels. It is a surround receiver. Each channel is rated at 80 watts. That's a lot of juice to feed from one transformer.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ptarmigan

Post Number: 28
Registered: Nov-05
As to the "burning in" issue, I believe most people mean "burning in" figuratively, not that the equipment is somehow on fire.
As I tried to suggest initially, if the bias current for the transistors is not a precise match, you are going to get harsh sound. This is why equipment sounds better after it warms up, as the appropriate bias current varies with the temperature of the transistor, which in turn is a factor of the volume of the music.
So if either the bias current shifts as the equipment gets broken in, or the sensitivity to the bias current of the transistor shifts, you are going to get a change in the quality of sound. But that is just speculation as to the cause of burning in.
On the other hand, it is entirely plausible that heat from the transformer could actually evaporate something that would affect the output of the transformer.
Now I was as skeptical as anyone about the issue of burn in on electronics. But I had a base to compare my new Marantz against - my Yamaha CA-1010. And there was a definite shift in the sound after an extended period of use.
The question is not whether it happens.
The question is WHY?
I was hoping someone here would have some insight. That is why I came to this site, not to talk about speakers, which I ended up doing because some other participants asked for suggestions.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ptarmigan

Post Number: 29
Registered: Nov-05
And while we're at it, I said "break in," not "burn in."
I do not know whether this has anything to do with heat.
But just because a phenomenon does not comply with the limited set of rules of nature that people have at their disposal at any particular point in history does not mean that phenomenon does not exist.
For example, I do believe sailors were able to navigate the seas using compasses before scientists were able to provide a rudimentary explanation of magnetism and its relationship to the earth's core.
But if it makes you feel more comfortable to believe that the break in period does not exist, that's fine with me. Just don't return your next piece of new electronic gear before using it for a few weeks.
That's all I have to say.
Period.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cuylar

MN USA

Post Number: 18
Registered: Nov-05
If you take a calculator and press 2+2 will you some times get a 5? If it's not warmed up? Maybe if you start playing a video game it'll need a few hours of operation before it works right.

I'm not trying to flame the forum. I'm not trying to insult anyone. Digital equipment is digital. It boils down to 1s and 0s. Thats the end result. The processor is going to make a signal. The reciever will make the signal that goes to the speakers. The only "warm up" "break in" "burn in" (they all mean the same thing) period is about 5-10 seconds because of how electronics work. Resistance generates heat. The max heat will be reached in that time and then the heatsink will start cooling.

As for not following the "rules of nature".... No. If you cannot explain this with physics and engineering than you should call the X-Files.

The idea of using your new equipment for a few weeks just helps you get used to the sound. Its just like a smell. After a while you won't even notice or just learn to like it.
 

Anonymous
 
"Digital equipment is digital"

Yes digital is digital but most receivers still have an analogue power section. Actually they may be all analogue after the dac stage. Who knows?
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 731
Registered: Dec-03
I don't know of recording studios that wait everyday for burn-in or break-in periods. At least any longer than a minute. Transistor (bipolar or MOSFET) amplifiers generally require a minimal "burn-in" period. And I mean minimal--a few seconds. This is not really burn-in at all, but a period of time to ensure that polarised capacitors (i.e. electrolytics) have achieved their normal operating state. This varies from one amp to another (even from the same manufacturing run on the same amp), and as electrolytic capacitors settle down, their leakage falls and capacitance often increases slightly. This process is actually repeated each and every time the amp has been turned off for any period of time.

One shouldn't leave amplifiers on permanently, as this is a waste of power, and the above effects wouldn't be noticeable/audible in a well designed amplifier anyway.

Valve (tube) amplifiers are another matter. Valves change their characteristics in the first few hours of operation. They stabilize after this, and then go into a very gradual decline as they age, until eventually they go pfft.

Many component manufacturers and retailers like to push this notion of break-in--the longer the consumer keeps the component the more likely he/she will get used to it and keep it.

Certainly speakers that have moving parts (particularly woofers) are different and will generally benefit from some break-in. But a mediocre speaker will not become a good one and a good one will not become a great one.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cuylar

MN USA

Post Number: 20
Registered: Nov-05
You are exactly right about the tube amplifier. But those changes will take place in about an hour. But from my experience i have only see the quality go down.... not up. I guess this thread can't go much further. Based on the technology in 98% of all new recievers on the market today consumers will not run into this.
 

New member
Username: Pabluum

Post Number: 1
Registered: Nov-05
What the heck are you people talking aobut?
You seem to think "break in" or "burn in" happens when you turn on your equipment each day.
Of course, there is no break in or burn in each time you use it.
This is, I believe, called "warm up."
I believe the issue has to do with changes in sound to brand new equipment, fresh from the factory, just out of the box, unused.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 725
Registered: Nov-04
pabluum, since you seem think you havea better idea on this, please explain. we would all love to read what you have to say about this, that is if you have anything that can be backed up.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cuylar

MN USA

Post Number: 36
Registered: Nov-05
Well Chris.... You seem pretty confident. Show us 1 (one) shred of proof that an amplifier, transistor, capacitor, or anything inside an A/V RECIEVER that will change to improve your dynamic range or in any way to improve your audio performance. Just 1. Credible please.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 727
Registered: Nov-04
cuylar, where did i state MY position in this debate? i merely asked for proof from another poster that seemed to demean other posters for not sharing the same beliefs. he throws out current arguements as irrelevent and yet provides no evidence to back up his own beliefs. that is rude as well as your misrepresentation of what i said. please read more carefully.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Darth

Post Number: 20
Registered: Aug-05
Myth

No question. I contacted the technical support teams from Krell, NAD, Simaudio, Clasee and they stated that their products do not need a "Break in Period" to sound better.

I know, I am jumping into flames here but If the manufacturer says so, how can anyone refute that?

 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 728
Registered: Nov-04
well supposedly j pi talked to someone at marantz and said that there is a break in period. can we refute that? just because a company says so doesnt justify a claim. bose makes a bunch of claims about their products, we all know they are crap so that logic doesnt quite work.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 729
Registered: Nov-04
cuylar, the least you can do is a small apology for your misdirected comments instead of ignoring your mistake. seems that no one cares for this topic anymore, oh well.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Paul98

Post Number: 81
Registered: Oct-05
It would seem this would be something very easy to test, you just need to blind test two of the same receivers one after being "broke in" and one new. Then test them again after both have been through break in period.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cuylar

MN USA

Post Number: 53
Registered: Nov-05
I don't believe that it is misdirected. You asked pabluum to back up his claim with evidence. He had a valid point. Since you contradicted everything I said (which is backed up by electrical engineering) I asked you to explain why any of us would have to go any further in-depth.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 735
Registered: Nov-04
where the hell did I state my opinion here? good god, where did you find that? please show where in this thread I have expressed my opinions and contradicted what you have said. i have absolutely no reason to explain anything to YOU because i never directed anything to YOU. now im still waiting for you to apologize for misdirected comments. even if you dont, it doesnt really matter because anyone that actually knows how to read will see that you obviously dont know how to read.
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 346
Registered: Feb-05
A break in period for solid state electronics is a myth. Solid state devices will stabilize within a few seconds and assurance is verified during post manufacture quality control.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 737
Registered: Nov-04
haha, cuylar you are quite funny. you did not have to be so polite as to PM me about your refusal. since you are too embarassed to admit your mistake i will take THAT as an apology, i just hope next time you dont fall so quick to judge others in this forum especially when there is nothing to judge. oh, and learn to read. i hear "hooked on phonics" does wonders.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cuylar

MN USA

Post Number: 58
Registered: Nov-05
Chris you really need to grow up. I took this out of the forumn because you are wrong. Shall we do a search for all of Chris's posts and point out all of his f-ups?? I'll start a new thread just for you... As for you continuing this conversation in the first place.... wow, do you really have nothing better to take up your time? Try answering a question here or there.... looks to me like you just looking for an argument.... HEY! THERE IS A WORD FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!!! A FLAMER! (prolly in more ways than one)
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 738
Registered: Nov-04
if you want to bring in discussion from other threads you should provide the links or reference. in any discussion concerning "break in" or "burn in" i have made it clear i think it is voodoo science especially concerning interconnects and speaker wire. you still have not shown where i oppose your beliefs. will be glad to see what you can come up with. as for other threads that i f-up, where? the reason this has become an arguement is from your mistake, not mine. we call people like you ignorant and stubborn. you call me a flamer and i need to grow up, right. notice how i have never made any derrogatory comments towards you and you attack me. now i know you will fire back with the fact i called you illiterate....not too hard to argue with that.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Darth

Post Number: 21
Registered: Aug-05
Hey Cuylar,
No need to waste time with someone as Ignorant as Christopher Lee, time after time all he does is criticize others without making any sense in what he has to say. He is a college kid who apparently has had a tough time finding maturity in his life.

Yes Chris, directed to you. Whatever you reply does not change anything, you are indeed a very ignorant Audiophile wannabe.


 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 741
Registered: Nov-04
haha, this is becoming quite amusing. vader i never disagreed with your position, i disagreed with your arguement. a sales rep or whatever will tell you what you want to hear. i find it hard that people who really arent that much older than i am are making maturity comments. your last post shows your level of immaturity. you call me ingorant but make no attempt to clarify your arguement against the idea of "break in". vader if it really makes you feel better to call me ignorant go ahead. you will find that if you pull your head out of the ground i can be helpful. all in all, i do agree with your position but the arguements are not convincing. honestly i would rather hear from j pi or pabluum because i find their arguements very illogical. if you want to turn it into a bashing session then go ahead, thats fine.
 

Anonymous
 
Transistors do anything but "stabilize" when they are in use. Current causes them to heat up, and heat changes their efficiency. The louder the source, the more they heat up. Ever hear of superconductors?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cuylar

MN USA

Post Number: 63
Registered: Nov-05
No. I understand where you got your oppinion from "anonymous". But are you saying that a computer processor working on an average load will calculate differently than it will on a larger load? The dynamic range will NOT change. What do superconductors have to do with this? Are we splitting atoms now? If that's the difference than why even post? The bottom line is that the heat generated by the reciever will not change the sound coming out of the reciever. These parts simply will not function if they get too warm. Wrap your reciever in syran wrap and see... but don't blame me when your reciever burns up... What you will learn is that the sound will be the same. (as far as your speakers can reproduce and your ears can hear.
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 347
Registered: Feb-05
Anon: Transistors do in effect stabilize. They are designed to operate with a preset current and voltage limit. If these ratings are adhered to then a transistor should remain stable. If these limits are exceeded then problems will occur. A transistor operated within it's limits will have no problem with varing voltage and current again as long as they remain within the transistors rating. Polarized caps or simply DC caps must have their dielectric formed properly initially which is done in the post production stages with qc.
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