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New member Username: KothrushPost Number: 6 Registered: Feb-05 | I have Yamaha HTR-5750 receiver and JBL E30 speakers right now. I am planning to expand this to 5.1 system over next couple of months.Please comment on following configuration. 1. JBL E-100 front speakers ($500/pair) 2. JBL Northridge series center channel ($200 or so) 3. JBL E-30 as rear channels ( $0 , as I already have them!) 4. Sub ( Dont know which one yet, something decent for $150 or so) Which comes out to be roughly around $900-$1k of spending over next couple of months. Do you think of any other better ideas ? I am open to try different configurations if it does not exceed my budget by around 10%. Will Yamaha do proper job of driving those speakers ? Or should I sell it and get something else ? Which one ? Music/Movies 50/50. Room is ard 15' x 15'. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 107 Registered: Jul-05 | Your yammie leans more on the bright side of sound...meaning the treble is highlighted over the mids. JBL's are very bright speakers, especially when you pair them with a Yammie receiver. If you are going to use that yammie, then I would look at some Infinity beta speakers, Epos or Athena. Getting a "decent" sub for $150 is a very tricky thing to do. Good Hsu subs are around $400 and those are great. If you insist on doing JBL speakers, since you already have two rears, then you may like the bright sound. My last setup was very bright, but i loved it, so im having a tough time adjusting to "warmer" sounds. |
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New member Username: KothrushPost Number: 7 Registered: Feb-05 | Well, currently I am open to all options. So I do not intent to keep JBL if I can find some better solution. Same thing goes with yammie. I am just debating on all front. For eg: 1. Keep current two rears+yammie and expand to 5.1 with decent speakers. 2. Keep yammie , sell JBL and get something else which goes better with yammie. 3. Keep JBL, sell yammie and get receiver which matches well with JBLs. 4. Sell yammie+jbls and start all over with my current budget ( $1000+ whatever in get from selling yammies and JBL). I know I can go to local store and listen to many speakers and receivers. But, before doing that I would like to know opinions about which of the above plans can lead me to great system with minimum effort. So may be decide on one of the above options before going and testing out all receivers and speakers. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2565 Registered: Mar-05 | kothrush, with that Yammie what you need is a neutral or warm speaker, not a notoriously bright one like the JBLs. My recommendation: CMT-340center CBM-170 L/R Hsu STF-2 subwoofer $1045 shipped from ascendacoustics.com Read up on the Ascends at their website, especially the review section. They are renowned for their amazing detail and neutrality and bang for the buck. That Hsu sub is more than you were planning on spending, but will be worth every penny. Do not under any circumstances buy a JBL or Yamaha sub, I know because I have a JBL e150 and have kicked myself for it since day one. Some people will disagree with me, but I say keep your e30s for surrounds, unless you do a lot of multichannel music (sacd/dvd-a) listening. For HT they do maybe 10% of the work and IMO are the least important part of the system. Of course if you want to go to the trouble of reselling your Yammie on eBay I'm sure you can get at least $250 for it, which is the price of the pure-digital Panasonic sa-xr55 which easily outperforms analog receivers costing several times more. Read up on it and you'll see why it's become a cult favorite on audio forums like this and many Circuit City stores have a hard time keeping it on the shelf: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/160136.html http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=1251&page=1&p p=10 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=530504 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=417894 |
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New member Username: KothrushPost Number: 8 Registered: Feb-05 | Edster, This sounds really good. I am going to dig deeper and start my shopping/listening around with Ascends. I will also try to look into Panasonic. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1953 Registered: Feb-05 | "Some people will disagree with me, but I say keep your e30s for surrounds, unless you do a lot of multichannel music (sacd/dvd-a) listening. For HT they do maybe 10% of the work and IMO are the least important part of the system." For todays movies this just ain't so. Try to get rears that are timbre matched with your fronts. I have Paradigm Reference series speakers but when I had Monitor series rears it didn't sound right. As soon as I put the Reference rears in the system all was better. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2570 Registered: Mar-05 | "I have Paradigm Reference series speakers but when I had Monitor series rears it didn't sound right." Good Lord Art, but you are one picky feller! : ) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1954 Registered: Feb-05 | True, I am picky. But it is not true that the rears do only 10% of the work for movies. Your view of the role of rears in HT is skewed by the type of movies you watch. Most folks watch a variety of movies many of which are contemporary and have special effects and music. These movies have a far greater role for the rears than you often lead folks to believe. So from my perspective it's just a bit of clarification. |
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New member Username: KothrushPost Number: 9 Registered: Feb-05 | "Try to get rears that are timbre matched with your fronts" , does that mean I should get JBL fronts if I have JBL rears ?? In that case I would definitely need to look at new receiver as the all speakers are bright. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1957 Registered: Feb-05 | No, I wouldn't own JBL's period. It means try to buy timbre matched speakers all around regardless of the brand. Yamaha receivers are perceived as bright, I have one that isn't any brighter than the NAD gear that I have. The Yamaha recievers have limited power supplies that when overtaxed loose their composure and begin to sound thin i.e. bright. I often hear the bright complaint with the HTR series Yamaha's and not the RX-V series. I don't know why as it appears there isn't much difference but apparently there is. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2574 Registered: Mar-05 | > But it is not true that the rears do only 10% of the work for movies. Your view of the role of rears in HT is skewed by the type of movies you watch. Most folks watch a variety of movies many of which are contemporary and have special effects and music. These movies have a far greater role for the rears than you often lead folks to believe. True, the average joe probably watchs at least 50% big budget action flicks compared to only about 20% for your truly so there is an element of personal bias. BUT the action genre only makes up what, maybe 50% of the most-often-watched DVDs? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic.htm You've got at least half of the movies people watch NOT being action flicks...just how many surround effects do you think are present in non-action blockbusters like "Pretty Woman," "Forrest Gump," "Men In Black," "The Sixth Sense," "Austin Powers," or "Home Alone?" Morever, of the 20% action flicks that I do watch, I would say that less than 25% of them REALLY use the surrounds more than 10% of the time. Master and Commander, The Incredibles, Lord of the Rings, Hero, U-571, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon...for these films the surrounds might be up to 30% instead of 10%. But not more than 30%, which still would not justify paying for really high quality surrounds, IMO, especially if you're on a restricted budget. And what do surrounds really DO, in a movie other than that handful of Dolby orrgies that I listed? The center channel does 95% of the dialogue which is 60% of the sound track, and the front mains do most of the musical score which is the other 30%), and the last 10% handled by the surrounds is just a bunch of ambient sounds (e.g. weather-related sounds) and spatial effects (whizzing bullets and cars)...and do these have to be PERFECTLY reproduced to provide full enjoyment of the movie? I respectfully but strongly disagree...especially if the cost of really high quality surrounds means scrimping on the subwoofer and front 3 speakers. Unless one is truly a megabudget action flick junkie, it's hard not to regard the whole hype about surround sound as basically sales propaganda for speaker companies. |
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New member Username: KothrushPost Number: 10 Registered: Feb-05 | well, so it seems like I am going to keep Yamaha for a while. But If I get another 3.1 channels , do I have enought power to drive them? Sometimes I watch movies at high volume and I want to know if someone in here have experience with Yamahas at high volume. Manual says its 100W per channel. Is it overrated or what ? I was also looking at HK AVR 235 available in local CC if Yammy does not have enough power. Any comments on that regard? Speaker suggession with HK ?? Hopefully my current JBLs would go better with HK. Also, I would like some more suggession for speakers. Are ascends the only decent speakers in my price range? That sounds pretty bad if I dont have much choices. |
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Bronze Member Username: KothrushPost Number: 11 Registered: Feb-05 | Any Ideas guys ? Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2655 Registered: Mar-05 | You'll need to quantify what you mean by "high volume"---buy an SPL meter, then we can speak a common language. 80db is moderately loud, 90db and above IMO is extremely loud. Most AVRs can be in the 80s without a problem, above 90db though is where the weaker ones will start to show themselves. The Ascends are IMHO the best bang for your buck especially for HT because they are so detailed without being bright (otherwise known as "neutral"). Who knows, you might like the Axioms, Onix Rockets, or Paradigm Monitors too...these are all Internet-only brands. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2023 Registered: Feb-05 | Except the Paradigms which are a "no internet at all" brand. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2659 Registered: Mar-05 | whoops, caught me there Art...wishful thinking on my part! : ) |
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Bronze Member Username: Jorge59Rio de JaneiroBrasil Post Number: 60 Registered: May-05 | kotrhush Taking Ed's advice, a few months ago, I bought this exactly 3.1 Ascend/Hsu set up. They work very fine either with my former Yammie and the new Marantz. I kept my old small Polk satellites as rears and I still like them with any kind of movies and concerts (no matter if they do 10% or 50% of the job...). IMO, you should concentrate on the best 3.1 speakers now. Later, when your budget permits, you could upgrade receiver and rears, if you like. |
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Bronze Member Username: KothrushPost Number: 12 Registered: Feb-05 | Great. I am going to see if my local music store has ascends. Will go listen to those. Last time I went there they had paradims, but dont know if they had other brands or not. Just out of curiosity, are paradims consider warm or bright ?? I know Axioms are pretty bright. Also, in future if I want to upgradue my receiver to match ascend speakers then should I go for higher end yammie or get HK/Marantz ?? Which one goes well with ascends and other warm speakers ?? Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2034 Registered: Feb-05 | "Just out of curiosity, are paradims consider warm or bright ??" Depends on who you ask. I think that Paradigm's Reference Series speakers are neutral, not warm or bright. Ascend speakers are an internet direct product, good luck finding them at the local hifi store. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2675 Registered: Mar-05 | Yep, the Ascends are Internet-direct only, with a 30 day no hassle return policy. What some people do is order just one pair of their smaller speakers the 170s to AB against other speakers because they're compact and light so return shipping is only about $15-20. I think that the Paradigm Monitor series, some of which (the 3 and 5) are closer in price to the Ascends, are considered a bit on the bright side but not unpleasantly so like JBLs. The Paradigm Refs/Studios are usually described as warmish bordering on neutral, I think Art even once said that his Studio 20s are a nice balance of detail and warmth. I have heard some people claim that their Ascend 170s compare well against the Studio 20s and their Ascend 340s against the Studio 40s but since I have never heard let alone ABed the Studio series I can't comment on that. Both Paradigm lines like most speakers have better bass extension than the Ascends but when there's a sub in play then the Ascends apparently don't do too badly against the much more expensive Studios. (Again, I stress the "apparently" for lack of direct personal experience.) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2678 Registered: Mar-05 | PS. You can also register at the Ascend website forum and post to see if there's an Ascend owner in your area who'd let you come listen. Most are very happy to do so, and this is the route I went myself. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 59 Registered: Jul-05 | Hmm. Thought I'd jump in. On your receiver power question- the answer depends on the speakers you choose- since they all have differing efficiencies and power requirements. My bias is that if a Denon can't drive it for my HT then I don't want it. many mnay folks would laughably and strongly disagree with me. That's fine. So get yourself efficient speakers that are driven well with out needing the big wattage. The Ascends are only one brand of many that are efficient and good for HT. The other parameter is that a speaker company should make a great center channel. This eliminates many brands from consideration. Like Vandersteen for instance-- a vaunted brand for music with an afterthought center from a maker with little interest in HT ( yeah throw the tomatoes at me). Ascend makes a decent center. Its very good with excellent being a step above my very good subjective opinion. On surrounds- well I think surrounds really make the movie experience come alive in a way that transcends percentages of where the audio signal goes. Its about immersing in a picture of reality ( soundwise), not a fiscal yes or no. HOWEVER- there isn't anything wrong with a 3.1 set up. Surrounds just make it more. Eddie- I thought about your room and believe your equipment, in its entirety would benefit from repositioning. You have a picked a narrow part in a small area of a much larger space. Acoustically, it doens't make sense. Try that big empty area to the left of the northernmost front window. Use that corner and your audio world could change significantly. AN opinion. And you could use the sub in the listener position technique, walk in different areas with an SPL meter and your ears. Mark the spot with the best responses, and place the sub there. A quick and dirty way to do it. Timbre matching has to do with using same drivers/crossovers and brands to get an even sound- I find that this is true to a point but that using an SPL meter to ensure equal decibel production from all speakers to be even more dramatic in its before and after effect. Also, if your speakers are against walls then be careful with ported speakers. The ascend 170s have a small port and benefit from between 18 inches to 24 inches from a wall (I have a pair for record listening). Good luck. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2681 Registered: Mar-05 | Marc, hey, welcome back! We should get together to catch up, I esp. want to hear about your Prague adventures. > The Ascends are only one brand of many that are efficient and good for HT. True. It's not so much their performance per se that sets them apart though, it's their performance to PRICE ratio. Will need you to help persuade the wife on the repositioning ideas (which I mostly agree with), I have never had much luck on that route LOL. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 61 Registered: Jul-05 | Hey Eddie- Prague was fun and interesting too, as was the rest of Central Europe. I don't see myself persuading your wife of anything- but I am here ( at a safe distance) for moral support! You should see the Ascends in my set up - had em custom painted. Hehe. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 62 Registered: Jul-05 | How bout this? " Honey- I'd like to give us more room for walking between the kitchen and the bedroom hallway so I was wondering what you thought about me moving all of that electronic stuff out of the way to that ( cough) small corner over there?" Oh and honey, I am kinda wondering about your favorite gift wrapping color for the upcoming holidays." Ok Hows that? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2687 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL good try there Marc...and from a longtime bachelor no less! yeah, PM or email me whenever you have a free day I could come over and check out all your systems. Haven't had a chance to drop by Audio Concepts yet and I've been curious to hear what "the other half" hears! : ) BTW may I bring along my humble Panny for some blind testing? |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 64 Registered: Jul-05 | Sure you can bring it over. We have to think a bit on this though. My Jolida CD player has tubes and I use the analog output. The digital connect gathers dust only and if it was used, we would now be comparing apples to oranges since the tube phase would be eliminated, assuming my Class A Amp even has a digital connection. Audiophile rigs really dont use digital receivers, or digital anything, for the most part. HOWEVER- my other systems are less of a problem- just wondering what type of connector you use between your receiver and CD Players. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2691 Registered: Mar-05 | I use both a digital and an analog for the CDP, I like to switch between them for comparison once in a while. The analog connection is slightly warmer but not by all that much. |