Mains cleaners/power filters etc - solid gains?

Sun King New member Username: Sun_king Leeds, West Yorkshire UK Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 02:49 GMT Hey chaps (and any ladies), I've read all the bumph regarding mains filters and the like but can anybody inform me of whether there is a noticeable improvement? I've tried expensive interconnects and cables etc but found little change, will a mains filter be any different? I've heard in some quarters that it's the biggest 'tweak' you can do to your system but I'm a little sceptical. Also; are there good and bad mains filters and if so, what are the key ingredients to a good one?
lorenzo w. lopez Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801 Post Number: 43 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 05:35 GMT Sun King, The best way to find out is by a process of trial and elimination. Best if you possibly loan from your audio dealer a line conditioner such as for starters the likes of products by Audioprism. Getting better cables more so the expensive ones won't guarantee you will arrive at a better sounding system as well. I would give more emphasis on room conditioning the most important component of all. Contrary to the advise from other people here recommending products they swear to as the real deal to use it would best to be prudent and try to audition equipment and other accessories right there in your listening area whenever possible. Of course you won't need golden ears to hear a great sounding product in the retail store however be curios to check the dealer's SETUP THERE COULD BE HIDDEN FACTORS CAUSING GOOD SOUND IN HIS DEMO ROOM. Good Luck!
Hawk Silver Member Username: Hawk Highlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 496 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 06:41 GMT King: I am a big fan of line filters. I have a dealer near me that demo'ed some line filters and I am a big believer in them, to a point. In general, I have found a decent to good line filter will make a difference that I can often hear or see, but above a certain point, I no longer hear or see any improvement. Generally, I suggest a basic line filter/surge suppressor is all you need as the filtering generally doesn't get a whole lot better as you go up in price. I live in a very new area with a relatively new electrical grid system, so I don't have a big problem with dirty electricity. Nevertheless, my wife has some electrical kitchen appliances that when operated, causes "snow" on the tv, or creates a bit of noise through my stereo system. I found a basic Monster PowerBar works great in eliminating this electical "backwash." I just bought a $30 AR brand surge suppressor/line filter that I am trying out. It may take a few weeks to know if it will also do the job. If it doesn't, I will buy the Monster PowerBar which start at $199 (but can be found for about $150) and I know it will do the trick. However, many people live in older areas that have a lot of noise and other crap flowing through their local electrical grid. About 10 years ago, I was involved in a major lawsuit involving the City of Los Angeles Dept. of Water and Power. At issue was the damage caused by their power. I was absolutely shocked that some of the grid was never upgraded since it was built in 1922! Most of the system was not substantially different than when it was first built out in the late 40's. The power, when tested by my experts, was found to be full of noise and spikes, which was known to damage some electrical equipment. The City's defense was that their system was no worse than any other system, which we found to be largely true. There are many older systems in the U.S. which are really in pretty sad shape and I know it affects both audio and video. The dealer I mentioned has his store in a very old part of Denver and the quality of the electricity is pretty poor. He uses line filters throughout the store and can easily demonstrate their benefits. I would agree with lorenzo here that you need to experiment with line filters to determine what works for you, but I don't believe more expensive is necessarily better. If you stick with the established brands, Monster Power and Panamax, I think you can get something very good for not a whole lot of money. I am testing the AR brand, but as I said, it may take a few weeks to be sure that it has been tested by the noises that can plague my electricity. But, as cheap as the AR brand is, it may well be worth checking out.
lorenzo w. lopez Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801 Post Number: 48 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 07:19 GMT Sun King, Now that's good advise coming from Hawk, if the lower cost line conditioners do the trick for you then that's the way to go. Just go the extra mile on looking into all it's warranty perks and manufacturer's design,service etc., just to make sure of the product your getting. Hawk, Wow you went into a court tussle with city hall, hope you got compensated. I meant to ask the extent of damage caused and which component in your system got hit first? Thanks
Hawk Silver Member Username: Hawk Highlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 497 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 08:18 GMT lorenzo: Actually, I was the attorney--it was someone else who was damaged and, yes, there was a substantial payoff. I probably didn't get as much as I should have (I must say I did some pretty good work there), but I am still eating, so I have nothing to complain about.
Sun King New member Username: Sun_king Leeds, West Yorkshire UK Post Number: 7 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 12:33 GMT Thanks guys. I will look into trying some mains cleaners then, it seems like they might be worth a shot. SO do you agree with the manufacturers' and reviewers' claims when they say things like "the bass extension was dramatically improved and the soundstage widened....(etc)"? I seem to have heard all that before with cables and interconnects! Oh and by the way Lorenzo, I've noticed that you're one of the guys on here who swears by more expensive cables etc. I'm in no way slating your opinion as many, many people also hold it but when I set-up my system I allowed a reasonable budget for the connectors and was somewhat disappointed by the end result. When I swap one of my $80 interconnects for a standard cheapo I honestly determine no change in the quality of sound. This upset me hence my scepticism regarding mains filters etc. However, Hawk seems to make a very good case for using them. I do of course have my equipment protected from surges but not from 'dirty' mains. Thanks for you advice.
Anonymous	Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 17:20 GMT If your equipment has IEC power connectors then you may want to consider one of these. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3090168239&category=295 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3091238276&category=298
Jan Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 03:42 GMT My experience as both a retailer and a listener would be as follows. Firstly, the point of accessory upgrades such as cables and stands and line conditioners is system sensitive. Swapping from a $100 cable to anything else may have widely varying effects due to its interaction with your system. Cables are a balancing act of inductance, capacitance, resistance, phase shift, dielectric absorption, RFI and EMI shielding and a dozen or so lesser factors. The interaction with your system may be as much a tone control effect as it is an improvement. I've worked in stores where, because of the sonic values each salesperson listened for, the cable that lit up a system to one person did nothing or had a negative effect to another person. I always emphasize the value of knowing what you are listening for not just looking for bass extension or soundstage width and depth and so on. Part of this comes from listening to live music in as natural an acoustic as possible. Rock stadiums don't help much but since amplification is almost everwhere today a small combo in a reasonable space works just fine. It's the music you are listening for not the imaging and the ethereal nature of the upper mids as they cross to the lower highs as exemplified by such and such recording. In general my advice quite often is if the choice between new cables and a performance by a good artist is based on money, choose the performance. Twenty years from now you'll be telling your friends, "I remember when I saw her live. What a show!" instead of "I owned a pair of XYZ cables. What a cable!" You will learn far more about your system at a performance than you will comparing a dozen cables. I do recommend you toss out most of the standard cables that come with equipment simply because a $20 interconnect will be better made, give better shielding and resist oxidation that deteriorates the sound as the system ages. A good many service calls are no more than oxidized cables or bad connections that have finally shown up over time. The expense and perceived value of an accessory is determined by your own values. I think some pieces are obscenely priced but I worked with one soul who had $10,000 worth of cables in his closet that he just couldn't tolerate anymore. The basics of selling tell you that something (anything) is worth what someone (anyone) will pay for it. This applies to hifi, cars, houses and a loaf of bread. I have heard good sounding systems hooked up with everything from 300 ohm antenna leads to 12AWG Romex to $4000 speaker cables. There are some consistently good values in cables and other accessories and some research can usually reveal what is worth a little money and what is not. Speaker stands and the like require a match between your speaker and the type of stand used. The speaker manufacturer should be able to give you the best assistance. Just buying a stand is not the only answer. Speakers require careful set up and a well informed shop should be able to guide you in that area and if you are purchasing the speakers from them actually offer some assistance in the actual set up. In the field of AC filters and conditioners the effect on your system will be quite different from system to system even within a house. This is because all devices do something a little different and what may suit a system in the main room with a decent set of electronics and rather inefficient speakers may have no effect on a bedroom system that has more efficient speakers and a good reciever. Normally the quality of your AC line can be easily judged by listening at different times of the day. If your system sounds smoother, sweeter, more dynamic, etc., or the bass is more extended, the soundstaging is wider or more defined at different times then you are in need of some help. This is almost always why people feel their system sounds better late at night with the lights off. There is less going on in your power system grid (which may extend in some cases over a few blocks to as much as a few miles), as a result your system doesn't have the grunge on the lines when your neighbors go to bed and line voltages stabilize. Though I am not disagreeing with Hawk I have come across problems in old and new, mid and high priced areas of town. Try this experiment: borrow a surge suppressor with RFI and EMI suppression from your dealer. Good units start at about $100 and shouldn't run more than say $500. Cheap surge suppressors can make things worse often because of the poor grounding in the strip. Set your system to an open input such as VCR2 or TAPE3 or whatever has no signal that can be fed to it. With the volume control at a normal listening level (maybe 10 Oclock) put your ear about 1' from the main speaker's tweeter. You will probably hear a rushing sound of electronic noise. Turn the volume down and power down the system. Put the filter in the AC line and repeat the same sequence. You should hear a reduction in noise from the tweeter. If you have borrowed several suppressors find the one that does the best job of quieting the system. If, on the other hand, you can't tell a difference don't buy anything. Suppressors work by shunting undesriable items to ground. If you have a bad ground, or, more commonly no ground (old houses with two wire AC outlets) a suppressor has no where to put the junk. Before you do anything go to Radio Shack or your local hardware store and ask for an AC line analyzer. About $20 at the Shack. This is a simple device that you plug into your outlet and it tells you whether the outlet is wired and grounded properly. You can also pick up a device to trace the wiring to see what outlets are wired together with what switches and dimmers. These can effect your AC line quality. A home owner should look into a true ground rod as opposed to a ground that runs to a cold water pipe. Many new construction codes no longer allow a cold water ground because of faults with the reliablity and the potential dangers associated with that type of ground. As always - DO NOT ATTEMPT ANY CHANGES TO THE AC LINE UNLESS YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. An electrician is cheaper than a mortician. And beware of the friend who knows a guy that will do it for a few bucks. AC outlets can also have an effect on sound quality and are often worth changing to a hospital grade outlet. If nothing else they protect against oxidation and make what is termed a gas tight connection that is self wiping when you insert and remove the plug. Pull your AC plugs out of the wall outlet and look for oxidation. They should be bright and shiny as if they were brand new. If they are not, clean them and treat them with a contact conditioner before proceeding. Please read again the last three sentences in the last paragraph and be sparing with a contact conditioner, a little goes a long way. Power line filters and power line conditioners are not the same beast. A conditioner is most often designed to store some amount of energy and will use some large capacitors or its design is to smooth the AC ripple (ever wonder why you occassionally see the battery powered device - no ripple) so the electronics draw voltage from a lower source impedance and these will utilize rather large transformers. This type of conditioner may include surge suppression but that is a side benefit. A large amp that draws high amperage will usually benefit from this type of product much more than a reciever based system. Make your purchase accordingly. Line conditioners will make the system more consistent every time you listen if they do nothing else for your set up. One last word about surge suppressors. If you live in an area that has electrical storms on a regular basis as we do here in North Texas you should have some type of surge suppressor if for no other reason than it makes the system easy to power down and unplug from the wall. It also gives a bit of peace of mind when a storm comes in at night or when you are at work and can't convince the boss you have to leave to unplug your CD player. Pay no attention to clamping voltage or time. Unlike the old saying goes, lightning does strike twice in the same spot. Actually it is a series of strikes that will hit in the same general area as long as the lightning is on the ground. Many suppressors clamp and then release and will be zapped by the next strike a few millseconds later. Look for a suppressor that can clamp and clamp again as quickly as possible. Call a few companies and get their explanation of why you should buy their product. If all they can tell you is it will make a difference scratch them from your list. Finally, system set up and room interaction will have a far larger effect on your sound quality.
lorenzo w. lopez Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801 Post Number: 54 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 04:42 GMT Jan, Amen! Your contribution certainly opens new horizons to consider before any upgrade or purchase.My crude way is to simply clap my hands in the middle of my listening room before embarking on anything.
Hawk Silver Member Username: Hawk Highlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 498 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 07:17 GMT Sun King: Actually, I would not agree that the bass will be dramatically improved (as claimed), nor did I hear any great extension of the frequency range. No, where I could hear improvement was in the background noise, or the lack of background noise to be precise. I would listen to the system and it would sound fine. Then they would plug in a line filter and the background noise (a little hiss and just a touch of static which I simply accepted as normal) was simply gone and the music sounded much better because it was a cleaner sounding. I had not noticed the noise before the line filter was employed, but I was aware of its absence and thus the improvment with a simple $200 Monster PowerBar because the signal was now cleaner--almost as if someone had shut a door and blocked out the noise coming from the outside. As I said, I could hear an improvement going from nothing to a $200 PowerBar, and a slight bit more improvement stepping up to a $350 unit. The next step was up to a somewhat esoteric $600 unit made no difference over the $350 model, as far as I could tell. I appreciate your comments comparing these units to the hype over interconnects and I wholly agree--there does seem to be a lot of voodoo here as far as I am concerned. Still, I went in skeptical, but I ended up feeling I could discern a real difference (improvement) with a low priced line filter. So, like my experience with interconnects, a Monster Interconnect I200 for $20 is a real improvement over the cables thrown in with the CD player, but the step up from the I200 cables to a pair of $40 I400s is not a difference that I believe I can hear. A modest line filter will probably provide all of the audible benefit you can get, but the high dollar ones simply seem to be an attempt to provide its owner with bragging rights--nothing more in my opinion.
lorenzo w. lopez Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801 Post Number: 64 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 12:39 GMT Is there a line filter which give out reading on how "dirty" the current gets? Using the one that I have which is an Audioprism hooked up with a 1000kw Voltage regulator whenever somebody opens up the airconditioner unit the power fluctuates as indicated in the regulator however there seems to be no degredation on the music signal. But then again I don't really know for sure what's going on.
Jan Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 17:10 GMT The only thing I have seen indicated on a fliter/protector/conditioner is over and under voltage. Some will show line condition in terms of proper ground or reversed polarity but this is what you should have already addressed with the analyzer from Radio Shack. Variations in voltage can effect not only the sound since it effects the resultant values (say, bias values)of certain pieces within the component but can definitely effect the longevity of a component. The number of problems that would make the line dirty are too numerous and would increase the cost for no real value to the user. If, however you consistently see undervoltage conditions you can be reasonably certain there are contaminants on the line. The sonic effect of any accessory is system and source dependent. The product may provide benefits which are not shown by your system or the signal you are running through the equipment. I have found most people have no idea what deep bass really is. They will hear an open E string on a bass guitar and assume that is deep bass when, if the instrument is tuned properly and the frequency is not changed by the playback equipment (a turntable that is running a bit off speed as most do) that note is around 42Hz. Not that hard for most systems to reproduce adequately. Also most speakers that can't do a deep bass note will do what is called doubling and you will hear a note one octave higher that is within the range of the speaker. Paul Klipsh made a fortune (and a speaker called the Heresy) with this piece of information. Many a speaker designer has intentionally placed a slight bump in response at 60 to 90Hz to give the impression of deep bass response. The effect of raising the volume of a low or high frequency note is that you percieve it as lower or higher in frequency. It is, in essence, the Doppler effect. (To your comment about not percieving the noise before the filter was used it relates to noise shaping that has become the basis for miniDisc, MP3 and if you are using a satelite reciever on your video system the very heart of MPEG 2 and 3 audio output. If anyone is intersted in more knowledge try a search on something like Ask Jeeves.) Even with CD the amount of music that can actually extend to 20 to 25Hz is rare. But taking away the noise that exists in the system, particularly the AC ground noise at 60Hz will leave the woofer with a cleaner signal and should, logically, result in the ability of the driver to better respond to the actual signal and not the crud on the AC line. An example of this is the phono input, particularly on an older preamp. Back in the 70's and 80's when DC amplification was the hot item many preamps would pass a 0.1Hz signal. Anyone with a turntable could find this disastrous as the resonant frequency of their playback system was amplified, along with the huge swings in voltage caused by a warped record, and the woofer cone would pulsate dramaticatly to what was a noise generated on top of the signal. If the preamp had a switchable subsonic filter you could go from watching the woofer pulsate, to a signal beneath your hearing limitations, to being dead quiet. You usually couldn't say you heard a distinct improvement in the sound because the frequency that was being removed had little to do with music but on a bench it was easy to demonstrate the benefits of the reduction in noise and distortion and the amount of power that was consumed doing nothing beneficial. The same benefits can be found thoughout the frequency spectrum of the system and may not be dramatic, or even audible on most systems, but are beneficial all the same. Everyone should determine where their own point of diminishing returns will be. The difference between a well designed and set up $2000 ststem and a well done $5000 dollar system is usually reather easy to hear. The difference between $25,000 and $50,000 is seldom as dramatic. As in all things the last bit of performance is expensive beyond all reason. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist; but, is it worth it to you? The issue of clapping your hands is an interesting point but one that will have to be discussed at a later time.
lorenzo w. lopez Bronze Member Username: Lockaudio801 Post Number: 70 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 18:21 GMT Jan, Appreciate the info thanks!

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