Like

Archive through September 07, 2005

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2628
Registered: Dec-03
Sounds good John, maybe you can try and get a loaner player from them, if they believe
there is a posability you may purchase a unit from them they may by all means do this.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

LondonU.K.

Post Number: 3687
Registered: Dec-03
Yes, that's right, Kegger. I'll see how it goes.

There is also a specialist two-channel only, vinyl and tube shop, with horns and other strange things. They are into SACD. One of the guys there rubs me up the wrong way, the other seems OK. I've got some other things on in the next week or so. I'll drop into these places on spec when I have the chance, and see how it goes. I will carry the hybrid SACD with me on the off-chance. I got the impression the big up-market store where I got the PrimaLuna is not convinced about SACD. Like I said, the guy's question was "Excuse me for asking, but how many CDs do you own?" He then suggested I might prefer to consider getting a better CD player. With a tube output stage, naturally.... It is a good point. I'll go back, say more nice things about the amp, and then try to pin him down on SACD. They also have gear like my own. If I got really serious I am sure they could rig up a demo with a PL2 and some Quad 988s or Martin Logans.

All the time I am hearing great things on stereo FM radio and I know most of it comes off CDs. There was long letter in HF News last year from a respected industry name, maybe from Arcam, saying CD was as good as it gets. I forget the details, I left that issue behind when I moved.

We should all try to understand it is not an open-and-shut case. You can find different points of view, sincerely held, by people who know what they are talking about.

I will stop rambling and see what I can find out for myself.

Thanks for your clear point of view, which I respect, and also for the suggestions!
 

Emm Arr
Unregistered guest
"and MR can rant at me all he likes."

MR thanks you, but he no longer wishes to waste his breath.

 

Anonymous
 
It appears the pack has split up, and gone their separate ways. Fare well, Old Dogs.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1543
Registered: Feb-05
Not so fast! Perhaps we're just resting.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5200
Registered: May-04


Old Dogs never die! They just change their username and post some more.
 

Silver Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 287
Registered: Jan-05
Woof!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

LondonU.K.

Post Number: 3698
Registered: Dec-03
Woof, SM!

Plus warm embrace.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2632
Registered: Dec-03
WOOF WOOF!

SNIFF sNIFF SNIFF OWWOOOOO!!
 

Old Yellow
Unregistered guest
Sniff sniff

pssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

psssssss

pss

pss


s


s


Ahh!




 

LoneWolf of the North
Unregistered guest
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROWL!!!
 

Silver Member
Username: Joe_c

Atlanta, GA

Post Number: 975
Registered: Mar-05
buncha bltches!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

LondonU.K.

Post Number: 3705
Registered: Dec-03
Adieu and RIP, Dr Robert Moog, inventer of the synthesizer and, I just heard, the theramin.

"All musical instruments are artificial. Violins do not grow on trees; pianos are not found under rocks".
 

Anonymous
 
Although some DO sound more Organic than others.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 503
Registered: Mar-04
It's almost like I never left. :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

LondonU.K.

Post Number: 3712
Registered: Dec-03
Sem! Great to hear from you.
 

Silver Member
Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 215
Registered: Dec-04
"Adieu and RIP, Dr Robert Moog, inventer of the synthesizer and, I just heard, the theramin

I always assumed that MOOG was some sort of acronym, I cannot recall when I found out that I was wrong and was the inventor's name.

I think that although Robert Moog was involved with making theremins, they were invented a few years before he appeared on the planet.

I'm not sure how great his contribution to music was - oscillators and amplifiers were available for dozens of years previously. Maybe his combining of the two into a playable instrument gave us the likes of KraftWerk? Okay, so maybe not too bad then. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: John_s

Columbus, Ohio US

Post Number: 414
Registered: Feb-04
There are very entertaining documentaries on Leon Theremin and Robert Moog.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5252
Registered: May-04


I can't let it pass; the memorial service for Hunter S. Thompson, the progenitor of gonzo journalism, was held Sunday on his Colorado ranch. His ashes were loaded into fireworks shells and blown into the mountains and across the prairie. 350 invited guests were in attendance. H.S.T. once wrote, between sessions with LSD and peyote, "It never got wierd enough for me."


 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

LondonU.K.

Post Number: 3719
Registered: Dec-03
I stand corrected about Robert Moog and the theramin. I just passed on the contents of the radio news flash. The obituary in today's Times is very good, and makes it clear that he was a devotee, who also happened to publish a design for a transistor theramin that was very popular, and which made him some money from selling kits. I do not believe I had ever heard of a thermin until John S mentioned it on this thread, or a related one. He can be credited for the synthesizer that was so influential and justly bore his name (pronounced "Mogue").
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 507
Registered: Mar-04
sniff sniff....Larry? Rick? Ghia??? Awwoooooooooooooo!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

LondonU.K.

Post Number: 3745
Registered: Dec-03
I agree, Sem. Is there is nothing left worth barking about....?

I tried to sort of sum up on August 11, above, after another longish silence, linking to more active threads that seem to cover the same territory. RIP "Old Dogs"....?

Thanks to all contributors. Personally, I learned a lot, and changed my opinions on several things. Also bought some HiFi gear.

I suppose it's all over when it gets archived. Admin probably does that when there are too few posts.
 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1260
Registered: Dec-03
Hi Sem,

Nice to hear from you. I hope all is well. I think most of the "Dogs" have moved on. I think in the end it became a clash of personalities and egoes. For me, I just had less to say, and many who cared less what I had to say. I quess my music and component interests moved beyond this forum. I will miss many, some not at all. Take care.

I would like to say one final thing if I may. We have had a major catastrophe in the Gulf Coast region of the U.S.. Many people in the area need help. I urge everyone to look beyond politics, nationalism, etc., and do the right thing. This is about humanity and human descencey. If you were going to buy a new CD tomorrow, donate the money to the relief fund instead. If you were going to buy that new amp or CD player, get one that costs a $100 less and donate it. Trust me, your new player will sound even better. If you can't send money, please donate your time to the relief effort in your community. You will never sleep better for the effort. Thank you all!
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 508
Registered: Mar-04
Rick,

Nice to hear from you as well. It seems I show up here less and less myself anymore. Lately too many other things have been occupying my free time.

Great idea about scaling back a bit and diverting some of it to people with greater needs. We've sent a donation, and I'm going to be keeping an eye out for drives by local scouts, churches, schools, etc. who I'm sure will be collecting clothing, canned goods, and what not. So many people have lost everything.


There is an online music store out of Portland, Oregon, http://cdbaby.com/home that is an outlet for independent musicians. They've setup a special section where the artists have agreed to donate all profits to the American Red Cross to help in the relief. Its a great way to explore new music while, more importantly, helping those in need. I placed an order for a couple cds last night.


John,

I will be popping in from time to time, but it does seem that the old dogs are running in different packs now. I will always be grateful for the knowledge I've gained here, and especially the advice I received from you nearly two years ago when I first started looking into HT. I hope that on those times when I do drop in, our paths will cross.
Be well.


 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5446
Registered: May-04


Rick - Before you go, let me ask when is the right time to look at the politics of this disaster? Maybe we should have looked when Bush was cutting the federal budget for levee repair in New Orleans by 80% last year. Maybe we should have looked when the Homeland Security division distributed more money per capita to Montana (Cheney's home state) than they did to New York where the buildings fell. Maybe we should have looked when $8.8 billion in Iraq war funds went missing and no one in the administration seemed concerned. Maybe we should have looked when funds for disaster relief were transferred to the Iraq war fund. Maybe when the 6,000 National Guardsmen from Louisianna, Mississippi and Alabama that should be home helping with this disaster were sent to Iraq because this administration wanted to do this war on the cheap. Maybe we should have looked after we knew our men and women in Iraq were being killed and maimed because we sent them to war without the proper equipment. Possibly a good look would have been correct when the Republican Congress passed the cuts in veterans benefits while we are at war. Or when Bush cut taxes to the top 2% while we are at war. Or when he signed the transportation bill that sends $210 million to Alaska to build a bridge to an uninhabited island and $4 million to the levees of New Orleans. Or when he kept his mouth shut when he knew the Medicare bill would cost more than twice the $350 billion he had told the public. Maybe we should have been looking whenever he said anything.

Ceratinly we should have been looking when he appointed a head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency who had no disaster planning experience. When we realized his experience was in raising funds for Bush's campaigns. Or when that manager said he didn't know there were people trapped in the New Orleans convention center three days after the levees collapsed and then when Bush says he's doing a terrific job. Maybe we should have looked hard at that point. When it took five days for Bush to get to New Orleans after the hurricane hit. When he ignored the sick and dying for a photo op. When he said no to the offers of help from other countries willing to assist with the hurricane's aftermath.

We certainly should have been looking when this president cut funding to the lowest 5% of Americans. When he shut off funding for the sick, the infirm, the elderly, the children and all the others that he has no compassion for. Possibly we should have paid attention when the Republican Congress passed a bankruptcy bill that will hit hardest those who are being affected the most by this hurricane. A bill that favored the banks and spelled disaster for many families who face an unexpected illness or job loss. A bill that spells disaster for the five million more people living in poverty since this president was appointed.

Maybe we should have taken a very good look at this president when he said no one expected the levees to break in New Orleans. Everyone who read the reports from 2000 forward knew the levees would break in New Orleans. But money to repair the levees was cut in his budgets while he doled out tax give aways to the energy companies that are reporting record profits and the most profitable pharmaceutical companies that got $144 billion in the Medicare bill. No one has yet explained how the American public will fund this Medicare bill. It's a safe bet it won't be with tax dollars from Bush's friends.

Maybe no one knew the levees would break just as no one knew terrorists were planning to fly planes into tall buildings. Unless they read that report a month before it happened. Maybe no one knew the invasion of Iraq would bring terrorists from all over the Middle East to Baghdad to kill American troops. Unless they read that report also. Maybe we'll never know a lot of things since this administration will punish anyone who crosses their path. Maybe we'll never know how many people are cowed by this administration questioning the patriotism of anyone who disagrees with them.

Will we get to take a look at this president when the electrical grid finally gives way due to lack of attention? When the highways crumble beneath our cars? When the libraries finally are shut down and the public schools are full of only the lowest income students? Or will anyone look at this president when they find out he has no intention of getting a marriage amendment passed because that would take away a rallying point for conservatives afraid someone might marry someone those conservatives don't approve of.

When do we get to look at this president and say enough is enough? If not now, maybe when the Republican led Congress convenes in a few days. Their announced agenda when they left was to repeal the estate tax which would affect only the top two percent of all Americans and yet divert almost $1 trillion from the federal tax revenues in the next decade. A decade when we will still be feeling the effects of this hurricane and we will still be rebuilding New Orleans. Maybe we should look in a few weeks when the Republicans propose making the tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans and the benefit cuts to the poorest Americans both permanent. If Bush continues to try to expand our deficits by trillions of dollars with his unpopluar Social Security plan, should we take a look?

When will we take a look and recognize the disaster this president is pushing the American economy into? When will we see this president has no vision for America; only debts to repay to his contributors?


I agree with you that if you were going to buy a CD tomorrow, send the money to the disaster relief fund. If you were going to buy a CD player tomorrow, think instead about the people who no longer have a place to put a CD player, who died because our government looked like a third world country responding to the worst natural disaster in our nation's history. Think about what your priorities are and what you want our nation's priorities to be for the next twenty five years. Then take a look at the government we have and the leaders who are running it.


If the Old Dogs shed gets shut down because egos got in the way, let everyone know, before I go, that I am sick of what George Bush has done to my country.




 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2663
Registered: Dec-03
Well that's one mans oppinion!

-------------------------------------


I never new that this was going to happen or how bad it was going to be!
Did anyone else? If not how do you know how to react?

Has anything this bad ever happened to the US before?
So how do we know that others would have handled things better?

It's really easy to sit and judge and second guess, even I can do that!

PEACE!
 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1261
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

As of late you are truly consistent. Your timing stinks! As for the rant, you are entitled to your opinion, as if anyone had to ask. We all knew where you stood before George Bush was ever sworn in as President. I have seen you ask to keep politics off the forum on several occasions. For one who gives such excellent advice, perhaps you should heed your own more often. I say this not in anger, but as a friend.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1586
Registered: Feb-05
Jan, you have a typically liberal view of the world. One where it's ok if everyone has there hand out and no one is doing for themselves.

In responding to the disaster in the gulf the the government looks less third world than does the behavior of the folks in the region.

Anyone who gives money to the effort at this point has no idea where it will go.

Instead of griping about what George Bush has done to your country (as usual it's all about you), please tell us what you have done for it.

Remember Kennedy "Ask not".

I for one am very comfortable with how my vocation contributes to the well being of my community. I am also very comfortable for having supported George Bush. Working for the Department of Human Services I get to see how his initiatives have transformed our agency from one of a culture of enablement to one where we give hope and opportunity to folks who have nothing.

So you go right ahead and gripe from your perch on high while the rest of do the work you so righteously preach about.
 

Silver Member
Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 238
Registered: Dec-04
I have my views on American politics, but I'm sure that nobody who lives in the US will be interested in them.
What may, possibly, interest you, is the absolute astonishment in the UK at the lack of any apparent action for so many days.

The questions I hear, both in the media and personally are along these lines -

How can the richest country in the world have such a slothful reaction to a major disaster?
Why was the advice to evacuate the area delayed so long?
How can the richest country in the world have such a slothful reaction to a major disaster?
When evacuation was finally ordered, why didn't they bother to try to organise some transport for the people without cars?
How can the richest country in the world have such a slothful reaction to a major disaster?
Couldn't they have arranged drops of water/food somewhat earlier - it's not as if air transport and water and food are in short supply in the area.
How can the richest country in the world have such a slothful reaction to a major disaster?
Is it because the main victims are all poor and mainly black?
How can the richest country in the world have such a slothful reaction to a major disaster?
Is it because the main victims are unlikely to vote - and if they do then they will vote Democrat?
How can the richest country in the world have such a slothful reaction to a major disaster?

I don't know the answers/excuses for any of the above.

But like the rest of my compatriots, I have been watching with amazement at this tragedy.

With deepest commiserations and regards,
diablo
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1587
Registered: Feb-05
Diablo, I have been through 3 disasters and what stands out to me with this one is not the slow reaction but the perils the rescuers and relief workes have to deal with.

During the crises that I was involved in people helped each other out rather than loot them. They welcomed relief not robbed them. They behaved with dignity.

A part of what we are seeing in the gulf is the result of the "culture of poverty". Folks waiting for someone to help rather than being proactive. I don't consider criminal behavior under these circumstances as being proactive in a way that is helpful.

Having been through 3 national disasters (obviously none of the scale in the gulf) and seeing my fellow citizens working together to pitch sandbags or provide meals and shelter where available, I'm not sure that the government predicted that they would need to use tanks and heavy armor to provide relief to needy people.

If you look back to other disasters of recent years during the Clinton and Bush administrations you will find that there is almost always criticism around the timeliness of the relief.

Being a black man myself I would be appalled if I thought that the administration was dragging its feet because much of the population effected by the hurricane are poor and black. I don't believe that to be the case. Instead I see many of my brothers and sisters exacerbating the situation and bringing risk to the good folks who are trying to help. This is just my opinion.

Like everyone else in America and around the world I pray for everyone in the gulf to come through this and a build from this.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5447
Registered: May-04


"I never new that this was going to happen or how bad it was going to be!"

Good frigging Lord! Didn't you read my post? Everyone knew this was going to happen! I understand none of you on the political right will read what I read because I read articles that do ask for accountability of this president and this republican led government. The report was issued by FEMA before 9-11 stating the three worst disasters most likely to happen in the US were: a terrorist attack on New York, a major earthquake in San Francisco and a hurricane strike on the coast of New Orleans. The Houston Chronicle, a conservative paper, wrote in December of 2001, "The New Orleans hurricane scenario may be the deadliest of all."

You may not read what I read but I want any of those who want to shove their head in the sand one more time to tell me one thing I wrote above that is not a fact. Tell me Bush did not cut the budget for the levee maintenance by 80%. Tell me Bush did not declare the gulf of New Orleans a disaster area and then go play a round of golf. That he did not go out to promote his idea of adding trillions in debt to this country with his social security plan while the waters rose in the streets of New Orleans, the homes of the people who had lived in Buloxi, Mississippi washed ashore miles from their foundations and people died waiting for someone to come save them. Tell me the republican speaker of the house didn't suggest that maybe New Orleans shouldn't be rebuilt.



I wrote what I wrote last night off the top of my head because I was furious to hear, one more time, that we should not bring politics into this discussion. If I had given consideration to what I put on the page, the post could have been ten times as long and still not scratched the surface of the incompetence and corruption of this administration and its cronies.


It is easy to sit and judge; and no one can say how another president would have handled the situation. We can only sit and judge how this president handled the situation. And by virtually every account, he did very poorly!

If someone wants to talk about timing, why don't we discuss the timing of a Navy medical ship leaving harbour in Boston on last Friday. It will not arrive in New Orleans until September 6th. How many people will be in New Orleans at that point? How many people will have died waiting for it to arrive? If you want to discuss timing, why don't we talk about the people who lay in nursing homes in New Orleans for five days waiting for someone to come help them. Then we can talk about the ones who drowned Friday night still waiting. Watch the rerun of Meet the Press tonight on MSNBC. Watch as the president of the Emergency Management Bureau in New Orleans tells this story. He tells it because the federal government kept promising people and aid were on the way. Now they will be there to pick up the bodies. Let's talk about timing.


Do not blame the citizens of the area for trying to survive. That is such a cheap dodge. There are lawless people that take advantage of any opportunity. That is not why the streets were filled with people looking for clean water and a bit of food.

Do not turn this into "what have you done, Jan?" That is not the issue and you all know it is not the issue. What I have done is my own business. Whether I have given five dollars to the relief funds or given my home to a now homeless victim is not what needs to be discussed. What needs to be discussed is who is accountable for this disaster. If our leaders were warned long in advance of this impending catastrophe and did nothing but play golf and hand out billions in federal tax monies to their friends, they should be held responsible. Please tell me where I have it wrong with the tax situation and the billions and billions that have been funnelled into the pockets of the wealthiest Americans. It is not about the victims of this disaster alone. It is about the growing number of American citizens living in poverty. It is about that number growing every year of Bush's administration. It is about the tax burden being shifted from the rich to the poor while the rich get richer and the poor get more and more poor and more desperate. It is about the average income for American workers not rising in the past four years. It is about the growing number of American citizens who live without health insurance and a safety net should a disaster strike. It is about cutting funds to the poorest of our citizens while giving away billions to those who do not need more. It is about the average number of adults working full time in the United States of America, the richest, most powerful nation on the planet, falling every year of Bush's presidency. It is about the decisions that have been made and will be made that affect the future of our Nation.




If you cannot see this goes far beyond the New Orleans disaster, then you have lived with blinders on for the last four and one half years. You are so blinded by partisanship that everthing comes down to blaming the other guy, blaming the liberal.



This is about America. This is about the country you and I both live in. And, most of all, it is about the direction this country will head in over the next few generations. This is about a president and a republican congress who are leaving behind an ever increasing debt and crumbling infrastructure to our children and our grandchildren. This is about a president and a republican congress that have no compasion for those who are poor, those who might not vote, or those who might vote against their policies. The rest of the world sees this; why can't you?


And, Art, blow that perch on high crap out your @ss! I am an American citizen and I am tired of being called unpatriotic, tired of being told I am aiding the enemy, tired of being told I have no voice because the other guy won, tired of being told I am not worth considering, tired of being told I am not doing enough, not working hard enough.

I am furious!!!!!!! I am more than angry!!! And, if those who wish to support this president cannot see beyond and before this tragedy, then we have a greater divide in this country than anyone could have imagined. Hail to George Bush, the uniter who has pushed this country further apart than at any time since the Civil War.


I knew exactly who would respond and how the responses would run. You have all been given the republican koolaid and you've all had a good party the last few years. When will you realize it has to come to an end? When will you realize this president has put this Nation on the brink of economic ruin? When will you realize we will have to pay for what this president has done? We all know when you will come to that realization. When a Democrat is in office.



Why can't you set aside your party loyalty and become citizens of the United States once again? Citizens of the World once again? Look at what I posted last night and tell me where I have made a mistake instead of attacking me personally. That dog don't hunt no more! Tell me where I have made a mistake instead of questioning what I do or do not choose to do with my time and money. Tell me where I have made a mistake and then tell me what good this president has done for this country and for the world. America is more and more isolated in the world every year that Bush is in office. America is less and less safe every year this man is in office. What are our leaders most important duties? To provide for their friends and to hell with everyone else? Our word is no longer taken with any value in the judgement of the world community. Many people judge Bush to be the most dangerous man on the planet. Shall we just dismiss them because they hate George Bush? Shall we just say they have no voice in the world? Shall we just call them liberals? We are the Superpower and everyone should bend to the whims of the few Neo Conservatives who want to dominate the world. Is that what you think should be allowed to happen? There are republicans in congress that are criticizing Bush; why can't you?



This is about more than me, you, New Orleans and whether a fire department in Montana got a few haz mat suits. This is about America and the world. This is about the future we leave behind and whether we will be proud to say we left something better or whether we will hang our heads in shame. If you are proud of what you are leaving your children; a world that is more dangerous than before, a world that is more toxic than before, a debt that is deeper than before, then you can be proud of this man called Bush. I cannot.




 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5450
Registered: May-04


Tell me where I am wrong.
 

homey-the-clown
Unregistered guest
what'd up dawgs?
 

Anonymous
 
Well you americans did elect an idiot for your president. Will you learn for next time round or the next or the next....
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5452
Registered: May-04


I disagree. I have watched George Bush since he was elected governor of Texas in 1994 after Karl Rove battered Ann Richards with rumors she was a lesbi@n. The man is anything but an idiot. He may be the most intellectually lazy man we've ever had as president, and the most stubbornly committed to his ideologies, but he is not an idiot. He is a puppet of the Neo Cons who trades favors for privilege and honors loyalty over performance. Never underestimate George Bush. The group he surrounds himself with is as vicious as they come. If nothing else, George learned from his father when to keep his mounth shut. That alone makes him much smarter than many people would like to think.




 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1588
Registered: Feb-05
"Tell me where I am wrong."

There is not enough time left in my life for that.

"Do not blame the citizens of the area for trying to survive. That is such a cheap dodge. There are lawless people that take advantage of any opportunity. That is not why the streets were filled with people looking for clean water and a bit of food."

Proof as though I needed it that you are either an idiot or blind. No one blames the people of the gulf for the disaster. I certainly don't.

"And, Art, blow that perch on high crap out your @ss! I am an American citizen and I am tired of being called unpatriotic, tired of being told I am aiding the enemy, tired of being told I have no voice because the other guy won, tired of being told I am not worth considering, tired of being told I am not doing enough, not working hard enough."

You must be reading someone elses words because I never said any of that. But typical of your ilk you put words in other folks mouth and wonder why we think you are an arrogant pr1ck.

"There are republicans in congress that are criticizing Bush; why can't you?"

Why should I? Because others are. Should I be a lemming and just follow. The politician hasn't been born that I am not critical of.

"Why can't you set aside your party loyalty and become citizens of the United States once again?"

I have no party loyalty. I voted for both Clinton and Bush. Once again you tell us to read your posts. Try reading others. I have posted this before.

"I am furious!!!!!!! I am more than angry!!!"

I am not. I don't take you and yours seriously enough to allow you to do that to me. When I don't agree with an administration, any administration, I don't get angry I get busy. I get busy in the campaign, I get busy writing my Congressman and Senators, I get busy working in my community to make things better. For me getting angry is a waste of energy. If you find it useful I am happy for you. You can go on about this if you wish and perhaps throw another tantrum but I'm going to move on and talk about cd players or something.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5454
Registered: May-04


Goodbye then, Art. I'm sorry you found it personally purifying to once again attack me rather than refute my facts. You speak of "your ilk" as if it were a disease. That is the Ol' American Spirit for you! How many times have I heard "you people" and "those people" from the right wing radio nut jobs. Yes, you obviously think for yourself.




 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5455
Registered: May-04


Anybody else want to get down in the mud with Art and call me names? Have I called any one of you anything? Think about what you have all become. I put on this page facts that can be backed up. Do you want footnotes and a bibliography? These are not one man's opinion. I am furious and I will remain furious until I have worked hard enough to get this republican party thrown out on its ear. I attack the philosophy and policies, not the man. I offered to discuss this with a few people in private emails. My offer garnered no response from those that view the world situation differently than I do. What it has come down to is someone who would rather sling insults at the opposing ideas than sit and discuss what our differences are and try to resolve the issues among ourselves. I won't resort to the word "pr!ck", it serves no purpose other than to make the person using the word feel superior and the people reading the word realize who can be sensible and who cannot.



 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1262
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

I have sadly watched you over the past few months having the absolute need to have the last word in all things audio. It is now also clear that you have to have the final word on politics as well. I am sorry you are so angry. I truly am. My suggestion is to roll another one of whatever it is you still smoke, sing another verse of "Michael Rowed the Boat Ashore", and wait for Hilary to save the planet.

I can hardly wait.

PS-I tried really hard to be your friend.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5458
Registered: May-04


Rick - If you cannot be my friend because we disagree on politics, there is a serious problem. It is a problem that one side will not talk to the other side and each insists they are the only ones holding the truth. It is a problem that has been exacerbated by this administration. Dialogue has been replaced by shouting down the opposition or treating them as children that must be led to the well to drink the water of truth. Or, ignoring them entirely.

I have not asked for the last word. I asked for anyone willing to discuss facts. I asked for anyone willing to tell me what good this president has done for this country and the world. Apparently I cannot find that individual on this forum or off.



Gentlemen, I am sorry this boiled over on this thread. I would have preferred to keep politics out of the picture. But, I cannot allow this president's actions to condemn another few thousand American citizens to their deaths and then be told to keep politics out of the arena. I cannot go without asking; when is it time to say this is wrong? The overwhelming majority of Americans say so in the polls. This country is headed in the wrong direction. The offer still stands to discuss this whether anyone of you wish to be a friend or a foe.

We now have evidence that after the billions and billions of dollars have been spent on Homeland Security, our government cannot take care of our own people when we are hit by a disaster we see approaching. Are we too assume we will be safe if we are hit by an unknown attack? What are the most basic duties of our government and our "leaders"?



I'll repeat one more time what I believe to be true. I have never given anyone on this forum a hard time because I disagreed with their politics. We may have disagreed, but I did not say you were anything less than honorable for believing as you do. But, I remind you, I am not discussing "your" president. I am discussing "our" president.

I have never let past disagreements control my attitude toward a current discussion. If we meet again on this forum, I shall not consider any of you a "pr!ck" because we have disagreed. Each discussion will be met with a fresh attitude toward open exchange. If you were my friend before, you are my friend still.

If you choose to let your opinions of me prevail, so be it. I can't change your attitude. Only you can do that.



As I said, I am furious and will remain furious for at least another three and one half years until this president leaves office. I am disappointed that partisanship clouds so many people's vision to the dangers we face.




 

M. R.
Unregistered guest
"I am furious and I will remain furious until I have worked hard enough to get this republican party thrown out on its ear."

Jan, your above comment seems just a little insincere given the time you devote to this forum.

I understand your anger much less than I understood the anger of those waiting for help, of those who were raped and abused, of those sought a handful of food or a mouthful of clean water, of those who had to watch dead bodies float by, of those who were becoming more sick as time elongated with the wait of assistance.

We can so easily be armchair critics but no one has ever experienced a disaster of these proportions with such extenuating circumstances. But politics should be for another day - to do something constructive when it counts - if you wish to change the status quo. Right now, when aid and compassion are the vital necessities, politics ain't gonna help anyone. Nor will name calling.


And Art - arrogance is far more rife on this forum than afflicting only Jan.

"Let he who is without sin cast . . . "


M.R.




 

New member
Username: Uncle_fester

Transylvania

Post Number: 2
Registered: Apr-05
I admire your George Bush. I hope he might come to lead our country, as I think you have some odd rules about not having the same ruler for more than eight years! He can rule us here for the rest of his life!

We, of the 'Unio Trium Nationum' persuation in Transylvania, admire his style.

The ruling elite should have all the power and give favours to whomsoever they care to - and remove all undesirables. That is the only civilised way.

The scum, however hard they work, are still just scum and need savage 'shoot to kill' policing to keep them in order.

It works in your South American colonies, so I'm pleased to see that Bush is finally introducing it in his home country.

Having nothing to drink for several days is no excuse to break the window of a Coca-Cola franchise - that way lies anar_chy.

Even though Bush would be a great asset to our country, I'm not sure that even he could match the triumphs of Vlad the Impaler or Nicolae Ceausescu.

But I live in hope.

Fester
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5459
Registered: May-04

Rantz - I don't think it should take much imagination to concieve of the fury and frustration that is pent up in those people caught in this disaster. Until we go through the experience though, I doubt anyone can truly comprehend the enormity of the feelings that come with every second during the days when a person feels helpless against the elements. Helpless with no one to help.

I also think it should be possible to comprehend the frustration and anger that grows when you see people in the most extreme situations and there is no one to help. No way to help. Watching the news reports, hearing the cries for help, seeing the pictures of dead bodies floating in the rivers and laying on the baggage carousels of the triage at the airport. Dead bodies covered with a blanket and left to rot in the sweltering heat and humidity along the side of a building. Hearing the reports of one day old babies taken from their mothers and neither is accounted for. The accounts of nursing home patients unable to leave as the flood waters rose. And then seeing the president head away from Washington while trying to save his withering poll numbers. This is the same president who rushed to the White House several months ago when one brain dead woman was called a martyr by the Christian right. And now he cannot comprehend the enormity of the situation until he finally sets foot on the ground five days after the hurricane landed on shore. If you cannot imagine the fury that wells up in someone unable to do anything to help those in need, I cannot explain why I am so angry. If you cannot imagine hearing the heads of Homeland Security and Federal Emergency Management say they didn't know people were trapped in the convention center and being furious because the reports have been on every news channel for the last 32 hours, I cannot explain why I am so angry. If you cannot imagine the fury at your own government when it cuts funds that would protect the most helpless only to give that money to those who need the least, then I cannot explain my anger. If the thought of your secretary of state attending a Broadway musical and then shopping for a handbag while the thousands suffered and died, then I cannot explain why I am so angry. If you think the vice president should have stayed on vacation instead of getting into the act of managing this crisis, the largest ever devastation to American soil, then you will not understand why I am so angry.

I doubt that I can make it plain enough to someone from outside this country what has happened here in the US the last week and the last four and one half years. Yes, I disagree with the Bush policies. More and more Americans do. Let me try to give some perspective. There are eleven letters to the editor printed in today's Dallas Morning News concerning the hurricane. Two are suggestions for where to send relief funds. One thanks God for another day to live. The remaining eight criticize the government's actions. The DMN is a very conservative paper.

In the New York Times, the author Anne Rice writes, "But to my country I want to say this: During this crisis you failed us. You looked down on us; you dismissed our victims, you dismissed us. You want our JazzFest, you want our Mar di Gras, you want our cooking and our music. Then when you saw us in real trouble, when you saw a tiny monority preying on the weak among us, you called us "Sin City", and you turned your backs."

"Well, we are a lot more than all that. And though we may seem the most exotic, the most atmospheric and, at times, the most downtrodden part of this land, we are still part of it. We are Americans. We are you."



David Brooks, a dedicated conservative, writes in the same paper, "The rich escaped while the poor were abandonded. Leaders spun while looters rampaged. Partisans squabbled while the Nation was ashamed."

"The first rule of the social fabric - that in times of crisis you protect the vulnerable - was trampled. Leaving the poor in New Orleans was the moral equivalent of leaving the injured on the battlefield."

"Katrina means that all the political culture, already sour and bl00dy minded in many quarters, will shift. There will be a reaction. ... All we can be sure of is that the political culture is about to undergo some big change."


Frank Rich's column is rife with examples of Mr. Bush's failures in a column entitled, "Falluja Floods the Superdome". There is no need to go through all his examples of the failures he percieves can be laid at the feet of Mr. Bush and his gang of Neo Cons. I've gone through many of them already. Let is rest at the point that terrorist attacks have increased while this president waged a war on terror; fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here. That this president hauls out 9-11 whenever he needs to bring his poll numbers up. that this president is still not honest about Iraq and AlQueda. "The world is more perilous than ever, and for now, to paraphrase Mr. Rumsfeld, we have no choice but to fight the war with the president we have."

How much do I need to explain beyond the budget cuts that hurt the poor and the tax breaks that benefit the rich? How can I explain that many Americans see the last four years as an assault on the rights that were won over the last fifty years? How can I explain what makes someone hit the tipping point in frustration? That this is not just about the hurricane but about the policies that allowed the disaster to become so bad. About the attitudes that seem so evident regarding the poor and feeble. About the environment. About how this president deals with the rest of the world.


This is the time to put political policies that could have alieviated this crisis at the forefront. We are Americans and we can do more than one thing at a time. We can ask for accountability because those who could not, or would not, prevent this tragedy cannot solve the problems we now face. What we can do any longer is to not question the policy decisions that have been made in our name.






As to the time I devote to this forum. This has been a thorn in everyone's side for quite a while. Yet no one has asked how I spend so much time here. You have all just drawn your own conclusions. You have painted a mental picture of me to suit your needs. No one knows my situation. No one asks. And that's fine with me. My situation is my business, no one else's. But criticising the amount of time I spend on the forum does not change whether I am right or wrong about anything I post. Please consider that for just a moment. Then think of all the reasons why I might be able to spend time on the forum. Draw whatever conclusions you wish; I doubt they will meet the reality of the situation. This is the same dodge that Art wanted to perpetrate when he accused me of not doing enough. No one knows whether I do or not. You only assume what you want to assume so you can make yourself happy. And that is not the issue here.




 

Rantz
Unregistered guest
I have never drawn any conclusion as to the time you devote to this forum. You are right - that is your business and no one elses. In fact I have had much respect for you for imparting such detailed information to assist many posters here. Read my comment as it is without making your own interpretation (you do not like it when others do the same with yours). It was a throw away remark based on the quote from your post - nothing more was inferred.

Of course I understand your anger and all of your country's citizens should feel the same. But, it pales compared to those directly involved. All I (and others) are implying is that politics should take second place to the action that is needed right now.

The other point is that by portraying your views in such a vitriolic manner, you may as well be telling all those who voted for Bush are also scum of the earth in your eyes. You have your views and others have theirs - I have mine too and we are not on the same path though they may converge in some areas. Yes, it is not up to me to interfere with your politics but I do see what is happening there. There are also many complaints by Aussies about our goverment's inaction to help them get out as well. But not everything is as cut and dried as we might like to believe.

I assume nothing about your situation Jan - as I stated, I agree it is no one's business but yours. But you continue to drive a wedge between you and others here by your very assertive manner - one that I have grown accustomed to btw. I only drop in occassionally now and may add a comment here and there, but it will be seldom as I have become frustrated with having to sort through all the idiots that have been pervading this forum. That and having been greatly disappointed with a couple of old timers here also.

Take it easier Jan. I've been told to do the same. Life is too precious.

M.R.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5461
Registered: May-04


Life is too precious.



I couldn't agree more.


 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5462
Registered: May-04


There's no need for rebuttal. I made my case. I inferred nothing about anyone on this forum, in my opinion. I asked for someone to tell me where I am wrong. That hasn't happened yet.




 

Rantz
Unregistered guest
"I asked for someone to tell me where I am wrong. That hasn't happened yet."

I cannot tell you where you are wrong or where you are right. Your views are based upon your interpretations of what you read and see in the various forms of today's media and by the faith you have in those providing the information. I have learnt that I cannot put my trust in any of the above.

But I do have opinions and one of them is that this is an audio forum and a political debate will create a barrage of long winded postings, much animosity and quite possibly forum archarcy. Not to mention elevating blood pressure levels.


I for one shall resist the challenge.


 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1589
Registered: Feb-05
Wrong #1

"This is the same dodge that Art wanted to perpetrate when he accused me of not doing enough."

You are hallucinating again Jan. I never accused you of any such thing. This makes at least twice that you have told that LIE!

Wrong #2

Maybe we should have looked when the Homeland Security division distributed more money per capita to Montana (Cheney's home state) than they did to New York where the buildings fell.

I know the west all looks the same to ya'll but Dick Cheney was born and raised in Wyoming. It also stands to reason that more money would be spent per capita in a state with a very low population than one with a high population. Montana (not Dick Chebey's home state) also has one of the longest international borders in the country.

I'm sorry that you feel that you always have to be right Jan. In this case I feel that there are more issues than either you or I understand. I could go on and on with corrections based on what I've read or believe but I think I'll have breakfast instead. Have a good day.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5463
Registered: May-04


I knew that would be the one fact that I would be called on. A simple, purposeful mistake to see what the reaction would be.

That does prove everything else I've said to be false, doesn't it? "You people" are so predictable.


Lies are lies in the eyes of the person telling them and hearing them. Obviously, Art, you can't tell when you are being told a lie and when you are fabricating a scenario to make yourself feel comfortable with the "facts" as you choose to see them. I see what you said in one light and you see it as something entirely different. You want to use your interpretation of this as another proof of my dishonesty and hallucinogenic nature toward the curent situation in the US and my arrogant prickness. Once again you would prefer to kill the messenger instead of considering the message. I won't argue with you. What's the use? Like everything else I've said in the past two days, everyone has their own interpretation of facts. I can't change anyone's mind. All I can do is ask everyone to look at what is clearly in front of you and consider what is being done behind your back.




Rantz, how many sources do I have to have before something becomes fact? I don't read left wing, burn down the college administration building publications any longer. I didn't state what I "believe"; I stated what anyone wanting to know the facts can find in the Congressional record in many instances. I really think you are correct when you say there are plenty of sources that will not give you the whole truth. But, you also have to decide when you have the truth based on simple, verifiable facts from multiple sources and when you are being fed BS. If you can't do that, or if you can't trust your sources enough to want to do that, you wander aimlessly making assumptions based on what you want the world to be. You are lost in a forest with a compass that constantly points North no matter what the facts actually should be. I can't live like that. It is a problem I detect on this forum also.



Acrimony? Nah! Couldn't happen here.



As to always being right; I thought you had become disgusted and had left, Art. What made you return with those comments?


I think the responses that have been given to my question should be more than enough indication how discourse is being handled in this country and on this forum. Anything that suggests one person may not be right and quickly the person making the suggestion is labeled an arrogant pr!ck. Maybe I deserve the designation. As I've said before, it won't be the first time someone has found that the only way they can respond to what I have to say. But, maybe we should all look in the mirror once and again. Eh, Art?




 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1590
Registered: Feb-05
"I thought you had become disgusted and had left, Art. What made you return with those comments?"

Who said I had become disgusted and left? I have no idea why you feel you need to put words in my mouth.

"I knew that would be the one fact that I would be called on. A simple, purposeful mistake to see what the reaction would be."

You can't be serious!

"Lies are lies in the eyes of the person telling them and hearing them. Obviously, Art, you can't tell when you are being told a lie and when you are fabricating a scenario to make yourself feel comfortable with the "facts" as you choose to see them. I see what you said in one light and you see it as something entirely different. You want to use your interpretation of this as another proof of my dishonesty and hallucinogenic nature toward the curent situation in the US and my arrogant prickness."

First, I want to apologize for using the word pr1ck.

What's to interpret the man ain't from Montana. The problem Jan is not that you made a mistake with Cheney's home state it's that you aren't even honest enough to admit it. Add to that your consistent need to lie about what I've said in this forum and a picture relating to your honesty begins to develop.

Looking in the mirror is not a problem for me Jan. I hope you can say the same.


 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5464
Registered: May-04


Here's a place to check facts:

http://factcheck.org/

it is totally non partisan.


And, lest I be accused of that which I rail against; Art, with our current immigration policies, I don't think the argument for the long borders in Montana or Wyoming are a reasonable excuse for the distribution of funding from the Department of Homeland Security. I will check, if you need, but I'm quite certain New Mexico and Arizona, where illegal immigration takes place at the rate of some 2 million people a day, did not get the same amount per capita as the two Northern states. Please, if you are going to argue facts, use facts that hold water.




 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5465
Registered: May-04


Yes, Art, I am serious about Montana. I did it on purpose, believe me or not.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5466
Registered: May-04


I guess this means you're calling me a liar one more time.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1591
Registered: Feb-05
"New Mexico and Arizona, where illegal immigration takes place at the rate of some 2 million people a day"

Let's see that would be over 730 million per year.

"Please, if you are going to argue facts, use facts that hold water."

Yeah!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5467
Registered: May-04


I'll double check the numbers, if you want. That number would include part of Texas and Southern California also, so I may have misstated the actual areas a bit. It is difficult to find exact numbers for each state; we are talking illegal immigration, you know. But, I do believe the number is in the region of what I gave for the entire Southern US land area borders. And, that would amount to not 730 million people crossing per year but 730 million border crossings per year. Quite a few people move back and forth across the border, some on an almost daily or weekly basis in areas such as El Paso where it is just a short walk across the national borders.

Do you need me to check that number? Even if I do, I think we're going to end up discussing something that still has no real relation to the issues at hand. Bush has no clear plan for immigration. He will only trot it out ... no, I won't go there.

What has happened in New Orleans and on the Southern coast was not about protecting our borders from illegal immigration even though it fell under the auspices and budgets of Homeland Security. If anything, the argument can be made that New Orleans is a major hub of commercial distribution for import and export. With a large portion of the Gulf coast destroyed, we have now lost, what is it, 15-25% of our oil coming through the Southern pipelines and numerous refineries and drilling rigs have been shut down if not destroyed. That seems to make the illegal border crossings in Montana a small pea in the soup. I agree we need to do something sbout illegal immigration. I doubt you and I see the solution to that in the same light, either.

But, still, that is not what I am upset about at the moment.





 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1594
Registered: Feb-05
"New Mexico and Arizona where illegal immigration takes place at the rate of some 2 million people a day"

I believe the only person who crossed our border since 9/11 and has been successfully prosecuted as a terrorist came from Canada by way of Washington State. Not from Mexico by way of NM, Arizona or California.

At this point Jan I think we should agree to disagree and move on. If you are comfortable with that then so am I. You are right Jan we wouldn't have the same solutions to nearly any problem and that is ok. In my opinion that doesn't make either of us wrong or right we just disagree (wasn't there a song like that by Dave Mason).

I hope you have enjoyed your Labor Day weekend. I have been cleaning up the house as my wife and I made an offer on another house and have to prepare this one for sale.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2664
Registered: Dec-03
Man I'm gone for 2 days and this whole place blows up.

Let me start out by saying that I'm mad at no one and have my own views and reasons
for them. They differ from many people and so does others oppinions. I believe Less
then half of what I hear and read (maybe not as bad as john) LOL!

I happen to disagree with Jans opinions and what he believes to be facts. That Is the
reason why I don't want to see them from him. Not because I'm being led blindly like
some others may think but because I disagree and I don't dicsuss politics or religion.
So I am not going to get into a debate with anyone anywhere. I belong to no party nor
do I have any loyalty or distain for any other. My reason for voting for bush was basically
because the last 2 other candidates I felt were so freekin stupid that I could not. Give me
the candidate that I can believe in by listening to them and seeing them in action and I will
vote for them if I believe they have a chance to win regardless of what party they belong to.
Regardless of what others may think I am not a republican.


That was just for anyone who may think they know where I stand, no more no less.

------------------------------------------------------

MR. My sentiments exactly!

"We can so easily be armchair critics but no one has ever experienced a disaster of these proportions with such extenuating circumstances. But politics should be for another day - to do something constructive when it counts - if you wish to change the status quo. Right now, when aid and compassion are the vital necessities, politics ain't gonna help anyone. Nor will name calling."

----------------------------------------

Art please don't take this as anything bad.
But I am so glad to hear you say that this is not a racial thing because that is the one thing about all
this I truly beleive is rediculas to really think is true and I am glad to see that there are at least some
minorities who are not waving the racial flag here. Can't we ever get passed this thing? Or will we
allways be devided with people who actually are prejudice and ones who think it runs rampant? Do
I believe there are still some prejudice problems? Yes I do, but to suspect it everytime there is some
situation is just stupid in my oppinion.

------------------------------------------------

Unless I am provoked to respond to something, no I am not going to defend my position or rebutal on
anyone elses. I believe most of us truly understand where the others stand on most issues and I for one
see no need in discussing them any further. So if anyone wants to talk there politics leave me out of it.
I know where I stand and why I do, I need no one to try and give me some info or insight to "enlighten"
me. I have my priorities and beliefs and they are not founded by following anyones spewings blindly. I
get my info and read between the lines and form my own oppinions, not nesscasarily those of others. I
follow no one. I go to the beat of my own drummer.

-------------------------------------------------

As Rants has said, I believe this tragedy is bigger and badder than what could have been predicted
and now we are trying to learn how to deal with it. I believe we could have done much better and still
need to but don't think the blame goes to anywhere but lack of experience to something of this magnitude!

------------------------------------------

Peace, OUT!

 

Rantz
Unregistered guest
Jan - No, I don't wander aimlessly making assumptions based on what I want the world to be. There was stuff back in my youth that helped do that of course. Maybe my comment about my disbelief of all media was a bit exaggerated. Yes, I too need multiple sources to consider what truth there may be in most reports.

Kegger - cool!

 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5469
Registered: May-04


Just to clarify, I made a bad mistake. The number of illegal immigrants crossing the US Mexico border is estimated at about a high of 2 million per year. I can find no numbers that indicate how many of those crossings are back and forth. There are an estimated average of 1,500 - 2,000 crossings per day along the entire border with peaks and dips according to the available seasonal work. My apologies.


 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1596
Registered: Feb-05
Oh now Kegger the whole place didn't blow up :-) Jan and I had just a bit of a disagreement. I'm not angry at him and I would hope that he is not angry with me. If dogs don't growl and bark on occasion what are they worth...right guys.

How's things up in Michigan. Here on the west coast we are enjoying a gorgeous weekend of sunshine and upper 70's to low 80's.

I just went by the house I made an offer on, and some guy drove by and asked me who the builder is. When I told him he said "I thought so, I just bought one of his places in Lebanon (a neighboring community) and I am having nothing but trouble with it". He then sped off before I could inquire further. I'm still not sure what to think. Just to be safe I'm having contractors come out this week to give me estimates on remodeling my current home (desperately need a 2nd bath).

I've seen the homes in Lebanon that he is talking about and I wouldn't have bought them in the first place. The one I made an offer on is of a higher quality (I think!).
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2665
Registered: Dec-03
Agreed Rantz! LOL!

-----------------

Art yes it was a beautiful weekend here and I went to the other side of
the state to do my second fantasy football draft and see foghat play locally!

Very nice indeed!
Hope your house hunting turns out well. I do wish you take that second bath!
(It's getting a little rank in here)
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1597
Registered: Feb-05
Woof!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1263
Registered: Dec-03
I didn't mean for all you old flea bitten mutts to get all riled up. I just wanted to raise some money to help some fellow Americans who need it right now. Enough said! Stay well........
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2666
Registered: Dec-03
Yu know Rick you've never mentioned wether or not your moved in down there.

If so where abouts are yu? Just curious.
 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1264
Registered: Dec-03
I'm still in New York. Still have the house on the market. As soon as I sell, hello Orlando. Don't worry Kegman, you can come down and spend the winter. LOL!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2667
Registered: Dec-03
LoL! Thanks, May have to see if larry is still around then you and a friend
of mine name brian come this winter. That would be really cool!

See yu!
 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1265
Registered: Dec-03
If there is one thing I have learned over the years, it is; there is nothing more personal than a mans politics, and his hi-fi. We can argue about both forever..................LOL!
 

Silver Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 285
Registered: Dec-03
The real tradgedy of the situation is that the people of the New Orleans desperately needed help, even before the hurricanes. This is Something that is replicated in every Major US city.

Thank you Kanye West for having the guts to speak your mind.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5482
Registered: May-04


Who's Kanye West?
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 509
Registered: Mar-04
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090300165. html
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5486
Registered: May-04


I heard that comment and then they cut away very quickly from Harry Connick. Let me offer this quote. It's is not a disparagement of Mr. BoUsh nor his administration. Just a quote:


"What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overhwlemed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle)--this is working very well for them."

Barbara Bush



I cannot find a definitive link to where this was actually reported. If this turns out to be one of the urban myths that will have been spawned by Katrina, I make my apologies to Mrs. Bush. As with anything else I have posted, please show me where I am wrong. I would very much like to be wrong this time.





 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5487
Registered: May-04


http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_09_04_atrios_archive.html#112596381619694000


 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5489
Registered: May-04


I just heard a replay. She actually said it in an interview with NPR.

How about a Texas chain saw, barbed wire cage match between Babs and Kanye?

Pay per view, anyone?


 

Silver Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 286
Registered: Dec-03
OK,

Last observation. Jr. sure did seem eager to act quick on the Chief Justice opening. less than 24 hours, I believe. I guess that shows where his priorities lie.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_s

Columbus, Ohio US

Post Number: 431
Registered: Feb-04
With Rehnquist still above ground and some unfortunate citizens of the 'Big Easy' still under water, Dubya takes decisive action.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1602
Registered: Feb-05
Anyone who's ever worked a welfare caseload knows what Barbara Bush is talking about (if she really had the guts to say it). Whether they will admit it is yet another issue.

Better than half of my caseload would work the system for anything they could get regardless of the circumstances. You would be amazed at the stories I hear. I paid out on a domestic violence grant today (we are the only state in the union with a comprehensive domestic violence case management system at the state level) to a woman who fakes it every twelve months to move or pay her rent and utils (after she has squandered her money). She will never know how disgusted I am with her because I treat all of my clients with respect. But inside I feel like telling her how her BS jeopordizes funding for all of the people who really are suffering from abuse. Hers is a very mild case of fraud and abuse of the system compared to many that I see.

Let me add that I would far rather pay for 3 fakes and 1 real DV claim and lose a few bucks if it saves even one womans life. That is another reason why the client who is obviously faking it never knows how I feel about it. Word travels fast in the client community and if a woman is scared to come in to the office because a worker behaves like an a-s-s we could lose an opportunity to save her life.

It's sad but true. There is a significant segment of welfare recipients who make it very difficult for the others to hold their heads up with the dignity they deserve as people.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5505
Registered: May-04


Why, John S, you provocative soul you!
 

Jack Asscot
Unregistered guest
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20050906/cm_thenation/120080

Fiddlin' While New Orleans Drowns
http://corrente.blogspot.com/2005/08/fiddling-while-new-orleans-drowns.html

That's why they are called "filthy rich".
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5508
Registered: May-04


"There is a significant segment of welfare recipients who make it very difficult for the others to hold their heads up with the dignity they deserve as people."

I assume these are the Cadillac driving "Welfare Queens" Mr. Reagan loved to point to. Those few are who the conservatives tend to hold up as examples of why the entire program should be abolished. Corruption exists anywhere money is involved. Look at Enron. To disassemble (that doesn't mean to lie) an entire program, or down grade the services so much that it hurts those who really need the program is dishonest in the most considerate way I can describe the Grover Norquist sort of ideals.


 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5509
Registered: May-04


Art - I think when Babs spoke of how well things were going for those folks who had lost everything they had, lost loved ones and whatever future, or even present, they had put together for themself - I don't think she was speaking from the perspective of someone who has seen the good or the bad side of being "underprivledged". The idea that she would chuckle about the thought these people's lives were turning out really, really well - and she did, it's on the tape - is particularly grating to many people. Most especially in light of the current situation with her son. I think a lot of people know Babs is famous for her "let them eat cake" statements. Between that and her vociferous defense of her boys, I can imagine anyone looking to make the Bush's look bad need only look to the matriarch of the clan. I don't think that was NPR's intent, but she supplied the silver spoon words none the less.


 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1266
Registered: Dec-03
You just can't let it go, can you Mr. Vigne?
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1605
Registered: Feb-05
Jan, I don't think you have any idea what "Babs" was thinking.

"I assume these are the Cadillac driving "Welfare Queens" Mr. Reagan loved to point to."

Not hardly, but this shows how out of touch you really are.

"Those few are who the conservatives tend to hold up as examples of why the entire program should be abolished."

Here ya go again putting words in peoples mouths. Read my post again, this time for comprehension.

Those few that you talk about are the majority not the minority. If you wonder why so many of my colleagues are burned out, wonder no more.

Jan, I am not only a welfare case manager but I was also on the other side of the desk. I lived in the projects. I don't speak any pollyanna BS. I tell it as I see it not as I read about it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5515
Registered: May-04


I don't see where I'm putting words in anyone's mouth. That seems to be what you want to believe I'm doing, But, I don't see how you come to that conclusion. Art, you continually use your race, your job and now your past to show how you understand the situation. Once again you don't have any idea what others on this forum do, where we've come from or who we are. And, there is no need to play one upsmanship with other people's lives. We all see things from the perspective of our own life. That's certainly my point concerning Babs. I appreciate that you are close to the people you talk about. Those are not the people who are the "underpriviledged" displaced 500 miles from their homes and sleeping on cots in the AstroDome. You paint so many as only having their hand out. That does such a disservice to so many people who have had less good fortune than you or me. I can only agree with one of your claims; I have no idea what Babs was talking about.


 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1607
Registered: Feb-05
I'm forthcoming so shoot me. I choose to be forthcoming about who I am. I post my real name and where I live. I also post what I do for a living. I have even posted my salary. If you choose not to disclose I can respect that as you should my choice of self disclosure.

"That does such a disservice to so many people who have had less good fortune than you or me."

My answer is:

"There is a significant segment of welfare recipients who make it very difficult for the others to hold their heads up with the dignity they deserve as people."

Oh yeah I said that in a previous post which you must not have read.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5519
Registered: May-04


Where ya been, Art?

I read it and then brought up corruption, Reagan, Grover Norquist and Enron. And I mentioned republicans want to use the image of the bad apples (you know, those Cadillac Welfare Queens) as the idea they plant in people's head about how the American tax payer's money is being "taken" from their pockets to stuff into the coffers of those who do not play the game fairly. You know; like those Enron guys did. The one's that were friendly contributors to W's campaign. Good ol' Kenny boy.

Then, with that image in America's mind, they don't wnat to make corrections to the system to help those who can hold their heads up with dignity. The conservative mantra is destroy the whole system. Slowly. Bit by bit. Like they did with FEMA. They know they can't get it done all at once; so they try to disable the programs until they are so weakened they can be dragged into the bathroom to be drowned. That's how the saying goes; isn't it?

Yes, Art. I read that post. Which upset Mr. Barnes when I responded to your comments. I'd been talking about Babs not the republicans.


How did you miss mine. Oh, oh, you didn't; did you? This is just headed back down that path of making everything I do or say the thing you can go after. Message ... messenger. Gotcha!

I bet this whole sequence of repeating everything is really going to tick off Rick even more. Now see what you've done, Art?




 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5527
Registered: May-04


How often are we going to do this broken record thing, Art?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

Warren, MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2668
Registered: Dec-03
probably as long as we do the stereo/surround debate!

We beat that dead horse to death a long time ago but we still come back to it.
Regardless of the fact it was basically how this thread was started it has
been striped down and ran through the mud many times over!
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1608
Registered: Feb-05
I thought liked vinyl Jan.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5529
Registered: May-04


?
 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1267
Registered: Dec-03
Please don't be so bold as to think you can speak for me. Not many men can, and you certainly are NOT in that league.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5530
Registered: May-04


That's addressed to me, Mr. B?
 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1268
Registered: Dec-03
Yes sir, it is.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5533
Registered: May-04


Well then, that's an interesting comment. What's under your bonnet?
 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1269
Registered: Dec-03
How do you know what ticks me off? I asked you very politely not to continue this, but you chose to ignore my request. I said nothing, hoping to extinguish the flames. Then you bring my name up with further exchanges with Mr. Kyle, and you want to know what's under my bonnet?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5534
Registered: May-04


That I mentioned your name? You're kidding. You're pissed that I mentioned your name?

You're kidding!
 

Gold Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 1270
Registered: Dec-03
No Jan, I'm not mad. Silly S_ _ T like this isn't worth getting angry. As a matter of fact, I try not to get angry anymore. People don't like me when I'm angry, and I don't like myself when I get that way. So I try to avoid it if I can. Liberals really don't make me angry. I find them amusing and predictable. I seldom use the word Democrat, because there are no Democrats anymore. They have all morphed into Socialists and don't even realise it. Pity really, I use to be able to converse with real Democrats. There! You win. I took the bait just enough to give you a little glimpse of what I believe. As I said all along, I don't want to talk politics with you or anyone else on this forum. Like I said in a recent post, it's too personal for each of us, and we will never agree. I can keep my bi-partisan views off the forum, can you? That is all I asked you to do all along. Can we move on?
 

Silver Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 288
Registered: Dec-03
Now Rick, that't not true, although you may feel that way. Hopefully something good will come out of Katrina. We have millions of Americans living in no better conditions than you would see in a third world country, that is the real tradgedy. The hurricane exposed that for the world to see. Red or blue, it shouldn't take much to see that. Whether on not we stick our heads in the sand and try to act like it doesn't exist remains to be seen.

This post went away from its roots years ago. Some people turned it into a sounding board, some people switched alliances, some got mad and quit, some joined back, and some don't bother. Maybe they ought to but this bad boy out to pasture, maybe not. To each their own.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 5535
Registered: May-04


You tell me flatly I am not in your league.


And now you want to know if we can move on?



What do you think?



HELL NO WE CAN'T MOVE ON!



You want to talk about angry, Rick? Let's talk about angry. Let's talk about not liking to be angry!

And then let's talk about being disappointed.


Maybe you didn't bother to read my posts over the weekend. Maybe you didn't want to read anything that would have made you angry. Because what I posted certainly seemed to make some of you very angry. Very angry! You know why you became angry while I was fuming. I don't think I have to tell you why you became angry. You know why.

You got angry enough to call me an arrogant pr!ck. Yeah, you apologized later. But you did it. You got angry enough to tell me you "tried to be my friend." What the hell was that supposed to mean? That you were dismissing me because you and I didn't see eye to eye? That's how you treat someone you say you tried to be a friend to? Some friend that is! Yeah, well, what the heck; I'm not in your league anyway.



Guys, I really don't give a crap any more whether you want to be my friend or not. I never really did. We're just on a forum together, that's all. Hey, it's not like I'm going to bum $10 off you. It's not like I'm going to ask you to put me up if my house is destroyed. It's not like I'm going to ask you to do jack for me. 'Cause I don't want to depend on the likes of you.


Maybe you didn't read my posts this weekend. Maybe you didn't notice that I was furious. That I was in distress because of what I was seeing and hearing. Maybe you didn't think it mattered that I was furious because I was furious at something that made you just didn't want to hear about. Because we disagreed, you didn't care whether I was furious.


You know this has been a very odd little group over the past year or so. We've heard all of Larry's troubles and then some. SM/Ghia and all that stuff with John's move. We've heard of family problems and job problems. We've had blow ups and reconciliations. And we've all come back each time. The Old Dogs.


This weekend I was obviously upset beyond normal bounds. I didn't think it took a f...ing genius to figure out why. And I blew up. I let you know why I was furious. And I did it among people that had been my friends. People I had disagreed with and people that I had joked with.

What did I get? "I feel sorry for you cause you don't see things the way I do." No, I don't. But you all know that. Did I attack any of you? If I did, I don't remember it. Did you attack me? Did you dismiss me? I think we can see the answer to those questions.


If I had come on this thread and said somebody just broke into my house and stole everything I had, would you have attacked me? If I told you I had just lost a family member and I was upset, would you have dismissed me?

But, because we disagreed about politics ...


you did.



You have your own opinions and you weren't interested in what I had to say. Because we disagreed about politics.


I was furious. I was as mad as I can remember ever being.

Thanks for helping, guys. Rantz was the one who made a sane approach to what I was saying. Can you believe that? Rantz! I appreciate it, Rantz.


So, Rick, you'll dismiss me as a friend. Tell me I'm not in your league. You're right. I'm not in your league. But I can think of plenty of people who are. That's the problem.

There's too many people that are just like you. Read your post above. If you didn't intend that to be dismissive, you sure weren't paying attention when you wrote it. You used to talk to liberals, but now you don't. Liberals are too predictable and ... amusing. Amusing?! How big of you to grant us that! How GD f...ing big of you to grant us that!

Now nobody wants to talk to anybody they disagree with. Everybody just wants to find the other person's ideas amusing. Like a little puppy is amusing. Little stupid puppy. It's so nice to know you pity us liberals.


I'm not in your league, Rick. I just wish there weren't so many just like you that are in your league.


Maybe you didn't notice some other folks were on this forum that I was having a conversation with recently. Like I've said before, if you know you're not going to like what I say, don't read the posts. My name's on them all.


Yeah, I've said keep politics off this forum. If you think this has just been about politics this weekend, you have dismissed me.


So, Rick, you go ahead and think I'm not in your league. It'll make you feel big and important. You can consider me a friend no more. So what? I like to keep friends that don't dismiss me when we disagree. I prefer my friends to not act small minded and egotistical when we disagree.


But, hey. I'm glad I could be amusing.


Now go blow it out your butt. I'm still furious.




 

Silver Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 289
Registered: Dec-03
I just hope that the next time our elected officials waste time and money on isues like steriods, defining marriage, ten commandments in courtrooms, feeding tubes, nipplegate, etc...we stand up and say "I think there are more pressing issues here". If they don't listen, show them at the polls.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 1610
Registered: Feb-05
Trust me Jan nobody is in your league. Thankfully! If Rick wasn't dismissive enough then here let me try. Some folks aren't worth talking to and Jan you're several of them. You are apparently expert in all fields including mine. It's ok for you to talk about your history selling audio or for Peter G to use his knowledge in engineeering but you don't want me to speak on my area of expertise. Why? because you are too busy playing expert. If you knew half of what you think you know, you might have half a wit.

And yes we can move on it's a choice. You can stay stuck if you want.

Ben...nipplegate...that's funny. Please show us at the polls. Ya'll can't agree long enough to show yourselves let alone anyone else.

Flame away Jan. Oh and while you are angry just keep in mind that I'll be getting a good night's sleep. Ya'll take care now ya here.
« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Facebook

Directory

Main Forums

Today's Posts

Forum Help

Follow Us