SACD Cables - OK, now I get BUT
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 467 Registered: May-05 | Ok,I finally purchased 5.1 SACD/DVD cables and now I get why you guys recommended them. Just bought another two SACDs and BOY do they sound better. So, answer me this Batman, I need that $99.00 optical digital cable because . . . ? And, if the answer is I don't need it anymore, is anybody in the market for a very slightly used, optical digital cable, under 1 month's use? AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! - This hobby is expensive, especially when you make mistakes. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 284 Registered: Jul-05 | Hell, market it as "burned in"; I'm sure some sucker will give you an extra 50 bucks on top of what you payed for your efforts. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 468 Registered: May-05 | Thanks DA, great advice. I take that means I don't need the dang thing anymore, right? I am serious, I went to Radio Shack and asked what connector I needed and he said I needed an optical, digital coax and then I can't remember if it was Jan, John or several of you that said, "NO", you need SACD/DVD cables. So, my son started working at BB and I had him pick them up. Fantastic sound, BUT, I am feeling like sticking in the guy's face and Radio Shack and sayin', "hey, you recommended these BECAUSE... |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 285 Registered: Jul-05 | " I take that means I don't need the dang thing anymore, right? " Thats the grand idea. Out of curiousity, what made you choose the 99 dollar toslink cable over the 10 dollar variety? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 470 Registered: May-05 | The friendly, helpful guy at Radio Shack talked up this particular, "MONSTER" cable link and when I asked about a cheaper alternative, he assured me I wouldn't be happy "with that." Hey, I'm an idiot, I'm an idiot, YES, I'm an idiot. . . |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 3756 Registered: Dec-03 | nah, call it a learning experience. Now you have a license called experience |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 631 Registered: Oct-04 | I'd hook them both up Dakulis. Depending on the movie I use the 6 channel direct mode or the DVD mode with the optical cables. I've noticed a noticable difference in the sound, and have posted about it on a few forums including this one, but have yet to hear a response... Basically, in my operation with a Harman Kardon AVR430 and Denon DVD2910 the HK with the optical connection offers bigger sound out of the surround channels while the Denon through the 6 analogs offers a wider soundstage and calmer presentation. I use the DVD mode for action movies and the 6 Channel Direct for movies centering around dialogue and music. BIGGEST differences in my setup was gleened doing an A-B while watching Kill Bill Vol. 2. The music directly after Kiddo is shot with a salt gun at the trailor sounds noticably more articulate and detailed through the 6 channel direct. Adversely in Bad Boys 2 when Smith and Martin's characters are being shot at while hiding behind the Ferrari the surround effects of the bullets hitting around them were much better using the DVD mode and optical connection. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1583 Registered: Feb-05 | If you have an SACD/DVD player that does double duty as a hi res SACD player and DVD for movie player Kano is correct. You need to have both a digital cable (coax or optical, I prefer coax) for DVD's and 6 (5.1) standard interconnects for SACD. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5434 Registered: May-04 | True. Unless your SACD/DVD player's DAC's are better than your reciever's DAC's at decoding Dolby Digital and DTS. Listen both ways and decide. For Pro Logic and the rest of the simulated stuff, a coax connection will be sufficient. Save your optical cable for when you upgrade to HDTV. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 474 Registered: May-05 | Art, Kano, and Jan, Thanks as always. I disconnected the optical coax this morning. Hey, I got incredible sound listening to the Moody Blues SACD with the London Philaharmonic. But, as soon as I went to a regular CD, I have only 2 channel sound and no options on surround modes. So, heck, I don't know why this happens and why it won't use the "auto" function to locate the "analog" connections and allow surround modes but I'll hook the optical coax back up and all should be good again, right. Any advice on how the dang Denon will allow switching at that point. AND, can anybody tell why adding the Denon 2200 makes it impossible to use the on-screen display to do anything, including balancing the system. Denon wasn't able to help me with that one. NO, that isn't frustration, I love my new equipment, honest. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5438 Registered: May-04 | You probably have to go into the SACD/DVD player's menu and switch from the optical output to the coax connection. The owner's manual should spell out where this exists in the menu. I don't understand your second question. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 634 Registered: Oct-04 | Direct mode bypasses all the receivers features and goes straight to amplification. 2 channel signals are passed stright through to the amp, so you get great sound, but unfortunately can't matrix it to 5.1 or anything. Also in 2 channel you won't get any subwoofer playback unless you hook it into the front right left pre-outs. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5441 Registered: May-04 | You should get subwoofer output if you set the player to 2.1 output. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 635 Registered: Oct-04 | The 2910 has a "Bass Enhancer" feature which is supposed to do an 80Hz crossover to the sub. I barely got any bass compared to hooking the sub up to the pre-outs. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5449 Registered: May-04 | Why do you need a Bass "Enhancer"? |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 637 Registered: Oct-04 | With the 2910 all the channel options are restricted to the HDMI connection. The Bass Enhancer is supposed to send low frequencies to the subwoofer. Otherwise, using the 6 channel direct setting on the receiver to listen to 2 channel, you get no bass outside of what the fronts produce. At least in my experience. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5451 Registered: May-04 | That seems rather odd. |
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Hi-Rez Unregistered guest | Not only odd, but totally incorrect. Kano, have you read your manual? |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 639 Registered: Oct-04 | Oh yes, from cover to cover. What is incorrect? |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 640 Registered: Oct-04 | OMG, I never found the multichannel set-up menu. Disregard everything I've said in this thread. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 641 Registered: Oct-04 | The manual had it worded "When "Muliti Channel is selected, use the up and down cursor buttons to select the item to be set, then press the Enter button." I never figured out that you had to select Multi Channel from the options of 2 Ch SRS, 2 Ch SRS off, or Multi Channel and then press the ENTER button. It's the only menu item that responds to the Enter button. Now I can change speaker settings, channel levels, and delay times. Damn, only took me 6 months to figure that out, thanks for the kick in the pants Hi-Rez. After watching a good action flick A-B between 6 Channel Direct and DVD mode... I'm turning the digital output off because I will never use it again, the analog connection is superior for everything ie the 2910's processing is way better than the HK 430s, especially on the low end. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 477 Registered: May-05 | Thanks Kano, that was my experience, too. I've got the 2200 not the 2910 but my analog outperforms the digital usually on HT and music. However, there are some non, big LFE movies where I get better center channel sound, i.e, voices and can hear it better. (Remember my high level hearing loss. LOL) Now Jan, here's what I was trying to explain. Prior to connecting the 2200, I could use my on-screen programming on the Denon 3803, which allowed me to change DVD and CD inputs so I could have my one co-axial cable work for both. Then, I hooked up the Denon 2200 and it went to a "default" which puts "coax 1" into CDs and "coax 2" into DVDs. BUT, more importantly, it defeated my ability to use the on-screen programming so I can change the "default" back to allow one coax to work for both. The on-screen menu flashed on, stays on for about a second and then flashed on to a black screen and I can't do any programming. That means no video or audio set-up, no balancing the speakers (although I think I could do that from the receiver if I wanted to but it's pointless until I get the DVD/SACD player set up, multi-channel set up and the subwoofer working on multi-channel, which I cannot get into now.) Can anyone tell me why Denon's equipment doesn't work together and why these functions aren't redundant on the receiver if they can't make the two components play nicely? This one issue is almost enough to make me want to sell the 3803 and go to separates or, at least, an integrated amp. VERY STUPID DENON!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 478 Registered: May-05 | Oh, this was a classic, too. When I contacted Denon, they said I may have to unhook the digital coax and the analog connections and use an "s" connection to get the on-screen set up to work. If that's the fricken case, why have all the detailed instructions about component connections, digital coax and analog connections. Why not just tell everyone, "hey, buy "s" connections if you want to do anything." There's got to be a better solution. I really don't want to buy another $30 connection simply to do something the idiot components should do PERIOD. WHO SAYS I'M FRUSTRATED AND TICKED, HUH? |
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Hi-Rez Unregistered guest | Dakulus Try hooking up your component connections directly to your TV/Display from the 2200. Choose the appropriate A/V connection then press the set-up on your Denon's remote - and presto! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5512 Registered: May-04 | That's essentially where to start. I would first try the DVD player hooked up with a coax cable directly into a video in on the TV. What quality you of picture you get is unimportant since this is just a set up menu. I have no idea why you would have to buy an S-video cable, but that doesn't mean a receiver company hasn't designed a product like that. Component cables ocassionally will not provide OS menu information when run through any additional "enhancement" circuits found in some receivers. I don't run any of my video connections through the NAD processing so set up menus are always available for me. Most functions such as set up menus aren't redundant because the DVD player is likely to get used with any brand of receiver/processor. Making the menus redundant on the receiver would be confusing to someone using another brand of DVD with the Denon receiver. It would also add cost to a very price competitive product. |
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Hi-Rez Unregistered guest | I may be wrong but I think with the 2200 and 2900's the OSD will only be available through the component and 'S' video cables and not the composite cables. I was thinking if there was a glitch with the receiver's outputs then a direct video connection to the tv/display may be the way to go (and probably better since there is less joins). With my Marantz 7300 I have the OSD through the 'S' video and with my 2900, through a direct component connection. Naturally, if the tv/display is progressive compliant and has the component inputs then that will provide the best picture quality playback with the Denon DVD player. Component must be selected in the DVD player set up. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 649 Registered: Oct-04 | The problem I had with the 6 channel direct was that everything seemed to be less loud in general. Setting the volume up another 5 dB seems to equate it with the digital signal. It was the subwoofer that was the major problem. It wasn't until I found the hidden menu that I could set the subwoofer to +10dB, adding another 5dB through the receiver's bass management equates the output to the digital connection at any given volume level. The 15dB loss of subwoofer output was the major problem, not to mention all channels were set to large. Now we're cooking. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 481 Registered: May-05 | D.A. and all others helping me along, I don't feel I'm hearing everything that I should be out of the Ascends, or even the Lings when I had them here. The HT is vastly improved over my prior system. Frankly, my system was so bad before that I would have ventured that I was using it 90% of the time for HT only, because the music just sounded lifeless. With the Ascends and the new Denon pieces, the HT became incredible and the music better. I watched and listened to Phantom of the Opera on the new system, first thing, with just the Denon and two of new CBM 170s and my old fronts as rears and my old center channel and I would guess the sound improved 100%. When I added the two CBM 170 rears and the 340c, I would say the sound improved another 100% or better and when I added the Denon 2200, the sound improved, probably another 25%. So, my sound quality on HT is easily 2-3 times what it was from the system I started out with. But, it sounded so bad on CDs and music that I seldom listened to it because it just didn't sound very good. A good example, my old CD of "The Planets", I used to listen to anywhere from once a week to 2-3 times a month, depending upon my mood with my old Luxman and Altec-Lansing Stonehenge IIs. This was 15 years ago. (The Lux died or I would still use it for music, it was easily better than the Denon in 2 channel.) In the last 15 years, I listened to it possibly 3-5 times. I've played it and my new CD version (L.A. Philharmonic and Zetah conducting) probably that many times in the past week. When I went to the old Denon AVR receiver, music quality just suffered badly. It's better now but the improvement teases me because I just think that there's more that these speakers can do than what I'm doing with them. Some of that conclusion is based upon Edster's comments on the improvement in 2 channel and multi-channel listening when he added the NAD amp to his system and part of it is based upon some of Quinn's and Dexter's comments, both have the Ascends also. Then, I've done participated in some of the discussions on the Ascend website and they seem to be pretty consistent on the fact that the Denon probably isn't getting everything out of the CBM 170s. Maybe, I'm just chasing my tail and I do believe I need to go and listen to some decent equipment in a decent listening environment before I spend another $2000. Frankly, I wish I had spent more time discussing the options here first, although I'm pretty happy with the upgrades, generally. BUT, for example, I had no idea that there were integrated, multi-channel solid state amps or tube amps out there. It would have been fun to have listened to them with some of the speakers I heard, before I jumped into this whole upgrade thing. (Art, you are not allowed to jump in on Paradigm, NAD or anything else, here. LOL) But D.A., if I had to put my finger on just one thing, I have a lot more life in my music and some warmth is back in my old CDs and I'm just trying to find out if there's more to be had. I had forgotten how much I enjoyed listening to music and with the Denon 2200, I've added some SACDs and DVD-As and they can sound really good but is there more . . . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1615 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh David you're taking away all of my fun :-). |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 304 Registered: Jul-05 | I don't suppose you could define life and warmth? It seems to me that what you are looking for has more to do with psychological effects than the actual sound coming from the speakers. Reminds me of a lot of Frank A's posts about how he can have the most accurate system, but it can still be lifeless. My advice, slug a couple drinks and loosen up before you listen. PS: Heck, I bet if you followed BM's example and smoked a joint, your music would really come alive! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5552 Registered: May-04 | Take my advice from personal experience; a bad system is a bad system and artificial enhancements only make it much, much worse. Kind of like looking at your dog and thinking, "you know, with enough liquor in me, that lickin' my own butt thing wouldn't be half bad." |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5553 Registered: May-04 | You're still drunk but now you've got a broken leg from falling off the couch. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5554 Registered: May-04 | Oh, yeah, my personal expereience is with the former not the latter. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 305 Registered: Jul-05 | LOL. The only thing is that I wouldn't call Dave's system bad. I could be wrong, but I think if he loosens up and just sits back and enjoys, he might find he doesn't need to plunk down another 2000 bucks. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 483 Registered: May-05 | D.A. and Jan, Jan, "Take my advice from personal experience;" and adds Jan "Kind of like looking at your dog and thinking, "you know, with enough liquor in me, that lickin' my own butt thing wouldn't be half bad." Concluding with by Jan, "You're still drunk but now you've got a broken leg from falling off the couch." Now exactly how much personal experience was involved in the above, Mr. Vigne? How could I possibly pass that up, HUH? LOL Now D.A., Obviously, I missed a reasonable explanation of the point. What's coming out now is not bad by any means, it's considerably better than what was coming out of the system before. From the "Do you listen" thread, my foot taps, I'm sometimes "amazed", the music can be very "involving" and has good "integrity." The lifeless part and no warmth described my old system, now all waiting to be sold on eBay I might add. There is life and warmth in what I'm hearing now, I'm just thinking that there's more to be had and the point of the thread was "how do I improve upon what I've got and how best to do it?" If a speaker upgrade is the answer, it's not in the cards right now, I just did that and I don't think i'm ringing everything out of the Ascends. (I'm relying upon Edster primarily and his remarks when he added the NAD amp to his system. Also, Art's influence of having a NAD, I think it's a NAD, in his HT set-up for pure 2 channel sound.) So, if a $400 NAD 320cee is the answer, that's doable right now. Is that something I consider, first? I started off with the Denon 5803 because the reviews suggested it might solve the issue, more power, apparently better musicality (?) and "sound as good or better than many separates" per the reviews. Does that help explain my conundrum? I thought not. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 308 Registered: Jul-05 | Well as you obviously know, what may be good for someone else may not be good for you. You also know to audition these products before you commit yourself wholeheartedly to them. As for what may provide the best bang for the buck in your situation, it may be seperates as they do have their advantages over AVR's. However, I don't think more power is going to really help you, ala the top of the line Denon. My thought is perhaps a look into acoustic treatments and various tweaks for your room itself. Its amazing how big a difference can be had from moving a couple things around after all. Best of all of course is that it is free. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 484 Registered: May-05 | D.A. Ok,it's been some time since I worried about room treatments, especially with the WAF. Is there a reasonable thread somewhere that I can look at for what may work and what's worth trying and what isn't. I've got a weird room. 12-14 feet wide by 30 feet long with a 7 1/2 foot ceiling. However, the listening area is limited to an area about 12-14 feet long in the middle of the long wall, so it's almost a square. My fronts are located about 6" off the floor, again in the WAF HT cabinet, and my rears are at ear level on stands. The center sits on top of the TV cabinet, centered, and the TV and fronts face a table, yes it sounds better when I move it, a couch and windows with draperies. In fact, the other other three walls, besides the one where the TV and components are located, are all windows with draperies and there are two large overstuffed chairs to each side of the couch. Ideas anyone? |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 319 Registered: Jul-05 | Well unfortunately this is not an area where I have vast reserves of knowledge. Have you considered stands for your front speakers though? |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 320 Registered: Jul-05 | http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/index.php Read up! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 487 Registered: May-05 | D.A., I'm sorry, I just realized that the above posts really were intended to be placed in my Denon 5803 receiver thread but you found it and figured it out, well done. Anyway, I'm reading and paddling as fast as I can. Thanks, Dave. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 322 Registered: Jul-05 | No worries Dave. Have a good night. |
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