Archive through August 23, 2005
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2009 Registered: Jan-05 | I say no.......not even close. If you have a large listening room, do you think a small bookshelf speaker rated similarly to a large floorstanding speaker is equal to the task of filling the room with sound at high levels?? Once again.......I say NO WAY!! I'd love some of you to share your opinions. I have done comparisons, and the little speakers dont measure up. For example, I'll pick a random number SPL sensitivity rating for my point. Many in this forum suggest that a tiny speaker rated at(lets say)95spl sensitivity rating can hang with a behemoth rated at 95 in a large room. Is this really what you think?? Inquiring minds want to know..... |
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Kalen Unregistered guest | If both are reaching 95dB then it 95dB. If you drive a mile in a Hummer or drive a mile in Cooper Mini it is still a mile. If both get a scientific measure device, the sound meter, to register 95dB then both are playing at 95dB. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 716 Registered: Jun-05 | Paul cant get by big verses small,so it will be impossible for him to understand that. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2014 Registered: Jan-05 | Kalen, That's exactly my point, however I'm telling you that is not the case in reality. For example, I have 8" 3-way bookshelf speakers that have a similar sensitivity rating(95+) to my behemoths, and the big dogs will blow those little puppies to smitherines head-to-head in my 20x25 listening room. Needless to say, I've listened to many through the years, and all sounded weak and dainty by comparison. Speakers like that work fine as surrounds, but dont deserve "Front Duty". Are you trying to tell me that a 30lb pair of halfpints could equally fill an auditorium with sound?? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1610 Registered: Mar-05 | > I have 8" 3-way bookshelf speakers that have a similar SPL rating(95+) to my behemoths, OMG, Paul are you confusing SPEAKER SENSITIVITY and simple SOUND PRESSURE VOLUME (= "loudness") measurements? Have you ever heard of an SPL meter? http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?MSCSProfile=745D84CBF04D14A48AA6FF9C89D722 C0BA68C1B04FE384678A5285FCD6E056B17AF21627FDABE316B90B3C038D68EBD6B7F9F3BD1712EA A9951ACB2590A05C6517EFE46941FEFDD1985D4EFD6321F5E70B4DE9B6C1D45512DCD9FB3DBCACB9 47A39C2A2B3B6F65E11C60D45F1CEDC0F8382A7CF3C5CE0CBE9350CCE29A8D161FD896D7EBC99E21 F9&cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog_name=CTLG&product_id=33-4050 |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2015 Registered: Jan-05 | Once again, Eddie is getting confused. My whole point is that regardless of speaker sensitivity, half pints cannot fill a 'non-small' room with the same SPL levels. I'll admit I should have made the thread title clearer, but based on my comments in the thread, the intent is very clear. Im comparing actual sound output to sensitivity ratings. Do you think they measure up? |
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kalen Unregistered guest | So, you are really interested in top SPLs achieveable not whether it will reach 95dB on a scientifically accepted measuring device. If you set any two speakers to the same SPL level the loudness will be the same. This does not means they will sound the same. One may have a flat response graph and the other could have the mid-bass tipped up, etc, etc. One could be full range and play down into the 30Hz range and the other could be limited to 45Hz. There are very good large and small speaker and there are crappy speakers both large and small. If you're stuck on size being proportional to sound then you're one of the luddites that hasn't past the 80s for audio possibilities. Try to find a local audio club and see if they do any blind listening sessions. Then your eyes aren't influencing what you "hear." Blind listening to a good monitor with a quality sub just might surprise you. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2016 Registered: Jan-05 | Kalen, Reread..... You're lost. Im asking you if you believe a 30lb paperweight with the same sensitivity rating as a large floorstanding speaker can deliver the same SLP in real listening environments. Once again, I say no....not even close. Im saying by comparison...well,...umm, that it will sound like a small paperweight. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 909 Registered: May-05 | Edster922 Man I don't think he would know how work an SPL db meter, Paul most professionals use them including the dummies that would like to know, I've been using one now for 17 years and its indispensable not being able to see the readings is not good science least of all the RTA as well.... |
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kalen Unregistered guest | You are interested in max SPLs achieveable then as I asked above. Your original question was about whether or not 95dBs for a large speaker is 95 dBs on a smaller speaker. The answer is yes because 95dB is 95dBs. A deciBel is a measurement unit just like an ounce is. If you're pouring 9.5 oz of beer into each a gallon jug and a pint glass both will have the same 9.5 oz as they used the same measurement. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2019 Registered: Jan-05 | LOL...Nice to see how you are all avoiding answering my simple question. I guess the answer must be obvious. I think you all know that a 30lb paperweight would be blown over, but you will avoid admitting at all costs. While sensitivity ratings may be equal, the reality is that in real listening envirnoments, they cant compare to the SPL levels of a behemoth regardless of ratings. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2020 Registered: Jan-05 | Yes, 95dbs is 95dbs.......I agree. If you were fast enough to keep up, you'd realize that was NOT what I was saying. What I am saying is that a paperweight with a 95 sensitivity rating cannot produce the same SPL levels in real listening environments. Im saying the 'ratings' are misleading. Im saying that if you put your paperweights in a small gymnasium and cranked them up, that an equally 'rated' behemoth would blow them to smitherines as if they didnt exist. Of course, that is in spite of their same sensitivity ratings. |
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kalen Unregistered guest | Dude, I certainly hope you are drinking and aren't as thick as you are coming across. When you sober up try re-reading the thread. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1611 Registered: Mar-05 | Paul, geez, you really need to learn some simple English. 95db of SPL is 95db of SPL whether it comes from a pair of your D9s, a pair of Mini-monitors, or out of Donald Rumsfeldt's @ss. SPL = whatever number that little needle on an SPL meter hits. Nothing more, nothing less. What you are talking about is in the totally subjective realm of how a speaker "sounds" to a listener, whether that listener is satisfied with the "power" of the signal coming through the speakers. A word of advice: before you get on your soapbox for the umpteenth time delivering one of your 3 or 4 obsessive tirades for the umpteenth time, at least get your terminology straight for Chrissakes. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1612 Registered: Mar-05 | Oops sorry Paul, I forgot that all of us listen to our speakers in small gymnasiums. Excellent point! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2021 Registered: Jan-05 | No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Heh... On that note, I am getting slaphappy and need to get some sleep. I'll continue this at a later time. Did I mention sensitivity ratings arent equal?..LOL puhleaaaaase!! |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 911 Registered: May-05 | Should home cinema owns buy an SPL db meter for setting up there, the answer is a simple yes, there cheep and like the Tandy range with there analogue and digital readout display, there indispensable for what they can do for the user, this is a basic tool for which it will show you the maximum level of the sound in db a logarithmic measurement of how we perceive sound? The max for Dolby or DTS playback should be 85dba weighting in the centre of the room or the sweet spot. For around $39.99 7-Range Analog Display Sound Level Meter  |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2022 Registered: Jan-05 | eddie, The bottom line is that a small driver in a teeny box cant move as much air  People who think a tiny 30lb halfpint with a 95db "rating" can fill a large room with sound as well as a similarly rated behemoth have a screw loose. While it's true that 95db is 95db, the 'ratings' dont hold water and are misleading. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 912 Registered: May-05 | How come you ate talking about the SVS on this what's that rated at in terms of sensitivity, do you know? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2023 Registered: Jan-05 | Andy, That's because we arent talking about subs in this thread. Ok, im off to bed for real this time. later |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1613 Registered: Mar-05 | > The bottom line is that a small driver in a teeny box cant move as much air That's called BASS EXTENSION, Paul. And in that single solitary respect you do have a point. But that's why people often buy subs to mate with their bookshelves these days...you have behemoths yet still found it desirable to blow $1200 on an SVS, remember? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5207 Registered: May-04 | Paul - You wrong and everyone else on this thread is correct. You don't have a clue what you are talking about and you refuse to admit that fact. You are stubbornly switching ideas and arguing in circles about what doesn't exist in reality. I could give you plenty of reasons why what you want us to say could be true. Particularly in an auditorium. But, I don't want to. You need to figure this one out on your own, Paul. It will be a lesson in audio that you really need to understand from the ground up. At this point, Paul, there isn't a thing you've put on this thread that is correct other than you are slap happy. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 913 Registered: May-05 | No I wide awake hear for the time-being, any way what is one CV rated at 95db + another CV rated at 95db =? |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 914 Registered: May-05 | Is that how much they cost $1200,00 that's a lot of money. Hell mine only cost me around £160.00 not bad going for a JBL 4645 sub with a newer sub bass driver working it, not too bad at all.... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5210 Registered: May-04 | Oh, yeah, loved the "non-small room" thing. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 172 Registered: Apr-05 | As I understand the Peak SPL Calculator chart which Jan sometimes adds as a link to some of his posts (http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html), SPL, or loudness, is a factor of speaker sensitivity, amplifier wattage, your distance from the speakers and their number and placement. In comparing Paul's CV's to a pair of bookshelves, if they have the same sensitivity, are driven by the same amplifier and are placed in identical positions, they will produce the same SPL. Makes sense to me. Because they have the same loudness does not mean they will have the same sound. It could be that the CV's will have a fuller sound because of the bass extension, but I don't see how they will have a difference in actual loudness. Of course, the addition of a subwoofer to the bookshelves will make up for their lack of bass extension. And, of course, SPL has nothing to do with sound quality or flatness of frequency response. Where am I going wrong? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5214 Registered: May-04 | The problem you're having is confusing SPL (sound pressure level) with "loudness". Loudness is a layman's term that can mean too many things to too many people. That's why SPL was created, so there was a more level playing field to use for discussion. We all understand the meaning of loudness; but we all could have a slightly different way to define loudness to ourself at any given moment. The car that drives 30' away from us with the booming bass line that makes windows rattle is considered loud because most of us consider boom to be highly offensive. In terms of SPL, however, it probably would not be measured to have a higher level than a system without the booming bass line. In other words, you can arrive at the same number by different means. (That is an intentionally vague statement.) Both would be considered loud. They would be considered obnoxiously loud for different reasons. If you are going to make this a discussion based on numbers, the numbers all have to be in the same category; pints, quarts, gallons, as kalen has pointed out. If you do that, a measured "XX" SPL is always going to be a measured "XX" SPL. If you want to make this about loudness alone, you will have a more difficult time making the case one way or the other because of the way each of us percieve "loud". Also, it will be more difficult because of the way speakers achieve their "loudness". (Also intentionally vague.) That is just one of the problems with Paul's ... argument ... thesis ... uh, premise ... opinion ... or, possibly contention. I'm sorry, Paul's contentious opinion. Yes, that fits. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2024 Registered: Jan-05 | I suppose that when you 'rock out' to your chamber music, you listen at 1 meter distance, and only utilize 1 watt. The sensitivity spec does not begin to tell the whole story. It does not tell how a speaker will sound playing real music, or how well it can fill a real room with real sound under real listening conditions. It's a vague spec that doesnt begin to paint the entire sound picture. What you individuals are failing to do is look at the bigger picture and use a little common sense. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5216 Registered: May-04 | http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=sound%20pressure%20level%20vs.%20loudness |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5217 Registered: May-04 | "The sensitivity spec does not begin to tell the whole story." Correct. I said that quite a while back when I suggested only looking at the HxWxD and weight of a speaker. People gave me grief for saying that. Isn't it kinda scary we agree on something, Paul? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2025 Registered: Jan-05 | Andy, The svs was $1350 in-the-door including rca cable. AS for your 'alleged' spl ratings, I had a college roomie who had a pair of CV D-2s which had a very close efficiency rating. We've compared speakers on many occations, and the D-9s would blow them to smitherines. It wasnt even close. You're little 1Watt at 1 meter spec obviously doesnt begin to paint the entire picture if reality. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2026 Registered: Jan-05 | True Jan, We do agree on that. Amazing, huh? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5222 Registered: May-04 | I doubt that, Paul. If you did, you wouldn't keep turning this discussion on its head. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 173 Registered: Apr-05 | Relatively sensitive bookshelf speakers driven by a sufficiently powerful amplifier will reproduce sound loud enough to be uncomfortable to one's ears as they sit in a generally accepted listening position -- certainly as loud as any sane person would listen to a movie. So, what's your point? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2030 Registered: Jan-05 | Hey c'mon Jan..... I started this thread, and you have to admit that it's an interesting topic considering the level of response. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 717 Registered: Jun-05 | Paul you are just trying to use a off beat way to get help because you want some more speakers,but you feel you are to Big to ask for help.The only reason this thread has some fire to it is because it is stupid and most of all your the inventor of it.You just cant find anything useful to contribute to the audio side of the forum,its really kinda sad because you spend more time over here than you do on the H/T side. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2034 Registered: Jan-05 | I am talking about home audio, and it's completely relevent. Whether or not a movie screen is also present(or not)has no bearing on this discussion since we're talking about audio. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 718 Registered: Jun-05 | Paul you want to replace the CVs dont you?you see all this interresting fun that we have listening to music and you want the same thing its ok just keep the yammie and CVs for H/T thats where they belong anyway. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2036 Registered: Jan-05 | Why would I replace them with all the weak speakers selling in todays speaker market?? I did try to replace them last winter because my surrounds were shot, but I opted to have them rebuilt after auditioning several weakling pairs of floorstanding speakers in the <$3500 price range. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 195 Registered: Jul-05 | Paul: Out of curiousity, have you ever run a setup disc like Avia to see how flat your frequency response is with your current setup? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1277 Registered: Feb-04 | Paul, I don't see the point, but here goes anyway... 95 dB is 95 dB, whether output by a large speaker or a small one. Assume both speakers have the same sensitivity. Now the large speaker might have deeper bass extension, so the speakers might have different SPL output playing low frequency music. If the bookshelf is down 10 dB at 30 Hz and you send low frequency content to both a large and bookshelf speakers, then of course the large one will play louder. But if the music content is all above the low frequency roll-off of the bookshelf, then they will sound equally loud. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5230 Registered: May-04 | I have to agree with Tawaun on this. The reason this thread has "legs" is because you, Paul, refuse to admit to what has been put before you. (And, because you have made yourself a target with your repeated interruptions and condescencions, you are fun to beat up on when given the opportunity.) You are given facts that are indisputable and yet you refuse to acknowledge their validity. "All SPL's are not the same." Yes, yes they are, Paul. Instead, you choose to distort the truth and call it fact and then disparage those who have stood for what is correct. You accuse us of being confused and not fast enough to keep up with your leaps of convolution. To that last bit, I think we all might agree. It it hard to keep up with the direction your mind works. Sorry if that sounds like a familiar scenario in today's world. Those are the facts. I'm not bashing you, Paul; just stating the obvious. There's no attempt on my part at any discourse other than to explain something I see happening. Let me provide two points that I believe are valid here. First, the problem with the discussion is you, Paul, want to mix jargon to illimunate a point that can't be reached in a logical manner. Consciously or not you wish to obfuscate the issue. In other words, you mix loudness, SPL and "hammering" the smaller speaker into one concept that is uniquely your own. We can't provide examples that meet your criteria when, to us, you are arguing that yardsticks, gravel trucks and gerbils are the same thing. Secondly, the only point I can discern from your insistence you are correct would be the louder the system, the better it is. That "hammering" is the desired effect? Blowing to smithereens is good? Certainly that can't be your only criteria for judging a system; is it, Paul? You will concede that even if that is your point of reference, it might not be the quality others desire; won't you? And, would you then allow that wanting a system that does something to the music more discretely than "blowing it to smithereens" is an acceptable aim? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 720 Registered: Jun-05 | Im talking about for a 2 channel Paul not H/T you already have that pretty good well except for the Bose. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5231 Registered: May-04 | Peter and everyone - I think you're missing Paul's point, if I might speaker for Paul for a moment. (Lord, I just about passed out typing that!) This is about more than frequency response, though that is a big part of Paul's obssession with his large speakers. There is more that Paul likes about his large speakers than just more bass. Because, in all likelyhood, Paul's large speakers are probably not going that much deeper in actual frequency response than his small speakers are. They just sound like the are to Paul. I would make the guess that those $3,500 weaklings Paul auditioned did not meet another of his wants in a loudspeaker. It is the obvious effect of large drivers and compression loading. Need I say more? |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 35 Registered: Aug-05 | Jan- you wouldn't be implying Paul likes boomy mid-bass? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 721 Registered: Jun-05 | Than ,Jan what I've been saying for the last month Paul wants new speakers,but he now realizes the 80s are over with and big stove shaped speakers the size of MTX subwoofer boxes,are no longer fashionable,and are only funcional in 10k and above speakers.Apparently he doesent realize that speakers like his are no longer in production in general at least for a reason other than wife acceptance and he is finding a hard time coping with speakers of that kind of design are as extinct as the DO DO bird.So in turn its clouding his listning to where he doesent realize the sound improvement,or the latter which i believe he knows it and hates the fact that he will have to join the crowd and get dainty lightweights because they are ultimately superior to his oversized design.So what do you think Jan? close or far off? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5239 Registered: May-04 | Quinn & Tawaun - I would like to think my days of getting into Paul's head are finally over. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5240 Registered: May-04 | Aww, hell, here I am trying to get out of Paul's head and I stepped in something nasty! |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 921 Registered: May-05 | Paul, I started a thread Called Earthquaking, Cerwin Vega's! And if you took the time to have a look there are some newer CV out there, some of them I wouldn't mind myself, but I'm a JBL closet person, like you are with CV's I'm surprised that you don't have a CV sub bass!!!!!! As they have a good performance especially around the Sensurround era? Earthquaking, Cerwin Vega's! https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/156022.html |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2038 Registered: Jan-05 | Than ,Jan what I've been saying for the last month Paul wants new speakers,but he now realizes the 80s are over with and big stove shaped speakers the size of MTX subwoofer boxes,are no longer fashionable,and are only funcional in 10k and above speakers.Apparently he doesent realize that speakers like his are no longer in production in general at least for a reason other than wife acceptance and he is finding a hard time coping with speakers of that kind of design are as extinct as the DO DO bird --------------------- Nice point..... I blame this on the multitudes of husbands who glady offer their pants to their wives, and allow them to make speaker buying decisions based on whether or not the speaker is small enough to be hidden under her lace doily. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 174 Registered: Apr-05 | Assume there are two systems. The first is Paul's system. The second consists of bookshelves all around coupled with a sub identical to Paul's sub and driven by a receiver identical to Paul's. The sensitivity of the bookshelves is identical to the sensitivity of Paul's CV's. Each system is able to reproduce sound from, say 20Hz to 20kHZ. Both systems are set up in identical rooms (normal size rooms) with identical acoustical environments. I think it's safe to say that both sets of speakers can be driven to identical sound pressure levels. So, if they are so driven, in what ways, other than tonal quality, will they sound different? Will Paul's system inevitably "sound bigger" to most people? If so, maybe he's got a point. Of course, even if he does have a point, that wouldn't make most of his posts any less annoying. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 922 Registered: May-05 | Paul, Looking at your home cinema again on the bragging threads, why on earth would you have a small centre channel like that, Foley and sound effects music as well, like in "U.S. Marshals" and "The Borne Identity" are most differently half-pint with that, I Kidd you not, plus it not even angled downwards to the sweet spot, so all those high frequencies will be going over your head? Bragging Area https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-theater/135520.html |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2039 Registered: Jan-05 | Paul: Out of curiousity, have you ever run a setup disc like Avia to see how flat your frequency response is with your current setup? =================== No I havent bothered with those discs as of yet, and I'm not sure that I ever will. My receiver does equalize each of 7 channels individually from 65hz and up, and from what I read on the 2500s Audioholics review, it adjusts the settings very close to where you would manually anyway. At this point, Im not @nal enough to do bother going any further. At some point, if my interest rises any, I might look into some bass traps for the SVS. At this time, Im busy securing everything to eliminate things that rattle or make unwanted sounds which is no easy task. Jezus, even closed doors can make unwanted noises!! Short of converting and reducing my HT into a padded room, I have a feeling that there will always be 'one more' sound to eliminate. So far, I've blu-taked everything touching or hanging on the walls. Luckily Im not one of those WAF slugs, because the wife would accept such things. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 924 Registered: May-05 | What a hypocrite...... Those test discs are designed with the soul intention to getting it done correctly as possible, and you throw that out the widow. Does it have a RTA so that you can see the results for yourself, don't think so..... Just don't EQ my home cinema please..... |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 723 Registered: Jun-05 | Other than wife acceptance Paul I said other than wife acceptance,wow are you that vague,you just conveniently left out that part didnt you?man im done with you,its a lost cause you are a true meathead,the facts can be starring right in the face and you still will ignore them. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 36 Registered: Aug-05 | "Quinn & Tawaun - I would like to think my days of getting into Paul's head are finally over." ROTFLMAO! |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 930 Registered: May-05 | "Being Paul Malkovich"  What is it like being inside this great mind, knowing that 95db is the same? |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 931 Registered: May-05 | Sorry Paul, but you have to admit it is damn funny though..... |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 37 Registered: Aug-05 | Thanks for the pix of Paul's set-up. Paul how hard is it to understand that sub-monitor set is the same as your speakers but with the mids and tweeter in one cabinet and the woofer in another? You've admitted that the SVS does bass better than your speakers. So why are you not putting the money that goes into the woofer of your 3 way into better mids and tweeter and letting the sub handle bass? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2042 Registered: Jan-05 | What a hypocrite...... Those test discs are designed with the soul intention to getting it done correctly as possible, ---------- If I owned a stripped down receiver that doesnt already do this for me, I would probably buy the disc. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 980 Registered: Mar-05 | "What I am saying is that a paperweight with a rating cannot produce the levels in real listening environments. " My god, your own statements are oxymorons! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2043 Registered: Jan-05 | why on earth would you have a small centre channel like that, I Kidd you not, plus it not even angled downwards to the sweet spot, ------------- It is angled downward. It's just not glaringly obvious in the photo. The back of the speaker is lifted approx. 1 inch. Anymore, and it would become a hazzard. My center channel speaker isnt really 'that' small. It's just that the 65" TV tends to dwarf everything else and throws off your perspective. At some point, I'd like to get something bigger for a center, but it's blends very well with the fronts. My center speaker has twin 6.5" mids which isnt exactly huge, but not small by any stretch as far as center speakers go. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 934 Registered: May-05 | Paul, What's the frequency response, sensitivity, power handling, and can you feel the information from the centre channel and what is the maximum, SPL db from the centre channel. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5242 Registered: May-04 | Paul - Please respond to: Let me provide two points that I believe are valid here. First, the problem with the discussion is you, Paul, want to mix jargon to illimunate a point that can't be reached in a logical manner. Consciously or not you wish to obfuscate the issue. In other words, you mix loudness, SPL and "hammering" the smaller speaker into one concept that is uniquely your own. We can't provide examples that meet your criteria when, to us, you are arguing that yardsticks, gravel trucks and gerbils are the same thing. Secondly, the only point I can discern from your insistence you are correct would be the louder the system, the better it is. That "hammering" is the desired effect? Blowing to smithereens is good? Certainly that can't be your only criteria for judging a system; is it, Paul? You will concede that even if that is your point of reference, it might not be the quality others desire; won't you? And, would you then allow that wanting a system that does something to the music more discretely than "blowing it to smithereens" is an acceptable aim? |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 175 Registered: Apr-05 | Well, no one's responded to my earlier post either. "Assume there are two systems. The first is Paul's system. The second consists of bookshelves all around coupled with a sub identical to Paul's sub and driven by a receiver identical to Paul's. The sensitivity of the bookshelves is identical to the sensitivity of Paul's CV's. Each system is able to reproduce sound from, say 20Hz to 20kHZ. Both systems are set up in identical rooms (normal size rooms) with identical acoustical environments. I think it's safe to say that both sets of speakers can be driven to identical sound pressure levels. So, if they are so driven, in what ways, other than tonal quality, will they sound different? Will Paul's system inevitably "sound bigger" to most people? If so, maybe he's got a point." Jan? |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 940 Registered: May-05 |  You have got to be Kidding..... hahahahahaha |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 176 Registered: Apr-05 | No, I'm not Kidding. Shirley, you jest! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2638 Registered: Dec-03 | Paul you are right the ratings on the speakers are misleading to a point. But they are also correct. What the problem is they are measured at 1 meter in a smallish setting generally so yes a smaller speaker can have that rating at that measuring point in a small room but make that room bigger and move the measuring point back, the smaller speaker generally can't fill it. Is that what you are trying to say? If so then I agree with you. But that does not mean the measurements on the other speakers are wrong. It is just how it is done. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 943 Registered: May-05 | This town loves a winner.....  |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2047 Registered: Jan-05 | Kegger, Yes.... I always knew I could count on you to understand, but it's unfortunate the others are in denial. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 196 Registered: Jul-05 | Question for you Paul. You say that only a floorstander will do, but you find that many of today's floorstanders are sub-par as well. Take the Klipsch RF-7 for example. Certainly it is a big speaker. But even it doesn't have the presence of your CV's. Why? |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 38 Registered: Aug-05 | Paul can yor SVS play bass louder than your speakers? Looking at the big 3 way in your HT pix. It looks rather like a D'Appolito speaker array with a sub built-in the bottom. So why is it so hard to imagine a D'Appolito such as the Ascend 340 with 2 6.5" drivers and your SVS couldn't achieve your "fullness"? Your SVS weighs 140lbs the Ascend 340s 26lbs each(the matching Ascend stands are another 20lbs each) . Add the weight of the SVS and Ascends together and you are talking about 96lbs(or 116lbs w/ stands) of speaker technology per channel. You are just breaking the two big cabinets into three smaller cabinets. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1287 Registered: Feb-04 | But they are also correct. What the problem is they are measured at 1 meter in a smallish setting generally Yike! No, they are not usually measured to take advantage of room effects and reflections off an opposing wall. make that room bigger and move the measuring point back, the smaller speaker generally can't fill it. That doesn't depend on the size of the speaker but rather on it's dispersion angles. e.g. horns can be more directional, so can project farther along that axis. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5244 Registered: May-04 | Jimvm - You're asking me a question that I'm not exactly certain how to answer. Yes, I would think that a small bookshelf modelled after the frequency response of Paul's speakers would still sound different that Paul's speakers. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to design a small cabinet with the same resonances as the large, relatively undamped cabinets walls of a speaker the size of the CV's. Is that a good think or a bad thing? Only the person listening can make that decision. I would prefer the more damped sound with less contribution made by the cabinets from the shorter dimensioned bookshelfs. Paul apparently doesn't agree with that. What looks like a compression type or piezo, horn loaded tweeter is well out of fashion in today's bookshelf models for consumer use. Duplicating the sound and dispersion characteristics of that driver and horn with a dome tweeter would again be nearly impossible without doing lots of work that would ultimately make the speaker less desirable to most of today's buyers. The low frequency driver, even though it is rolled off to accommodate the sub, would still have the characteristic sound of a large paper cone driver in an enclosure that looks to be too small for its size. A small 5-6" poly woofer in a bookshelf enclosure would not have the same sound through the operating area of the CV's woofer. What you are asking me to do is assume a similar frequency response and say the two speakers would be the same. On paper, they might look the same. But, in the real world, they would not be easy to mistake for one another. Would Paul's speakers still sound "bigger"? That again is an nonspecific word that only the individual can define. I think my LS3/5a's and T8's Lings sound like big speakers in that they can present lifesized images of performers within my room. Both of those speakers are less than a foot tall, so physically they are not big speakers. They just manage to do things that sound big to me. And a lot of other people who appreciate the sound of a point source. I can't imagine Paul would like my speakers even if he heard them. What Paul seems to appreciate is something that can only be approximated by a big, loosely constructured box with big drivers meant primarily to handle lots of wattage (in this case voltage) and high SPL's. The problem becomes a matter of taste. Even given a speaker of today's standards, with big drivers in a big box, the sound is not going to be what Paul is hearing out of his CV's. Now, somebody is going to ask me if that's a good thing, aren't they? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5245 Registered: May-04 | Peter is beginning to give the answer Paul needs to hear. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2048 Registered: Jan-05 | Devils, I've had the opportunity to audition the RF7 in a professionally designed soundroom as part of a 7.1 setup watching "The Incredibles".(a movie I had already seen on my system more than once) I thought they sounded just 'ok', and nothing about them jumped out at me. I thought they sounded decent for their movie application, but was not impressed in the least, and didnt think it sounded any better than what I already had. The only thing that impressed me on that day was a monster KEF subwoofer. It was that day that I finally decided that I had to have a subwoofer and I began my quest of finding a real monster. A short time later, I took delivery on my SVS. I have no problem with change, and will do so as soon as something impresses me which is evident because of my SVS purchase. As far as front speakers go, that day of being 'impressed' has not arrived. I give the edge to the CVs over the RF7s for my movie applications. At the very best, they're a tie, and that's not worth dumping $2000 for what in my eyes is a lateral move.(if even that) I did not take the time to listen to music through the RF7s, because I didnt care. I just wanted to see how they performed during a movie that I knew had a killer soundtrack. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 197 Registered: Jul-05 | I suppose the question is what does it take to impress you. Of course if you knew the answer you would have upgraded already I suppose. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5249 Registered: May-04 | Have you ever even heard the idea of buying what does not impress you? |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 946 Registered: May-05 | "The Empire" with its JBL array sold me within one minute..... September 1989 |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2640 Registered: Dec-03 | Peter I got yu with the horns and understand all about them, also understand how an anechoic chamber works and the testing procedure. All I was trying to get accross was that if you take a large speaker that can handle quite a bit of power and project a high spl in a large room without having to have horns and that same speaker is measured at 1 meter and puts out say 95db of sound in an anechoic chamber with 1 watt of power and a small speaker with say a 6.5" woofer on a 2 way has the same rating in the chamber as the larger speaker it will be much harder for the smaller speaker to fill the large room with as much sound as the larger speaker in this scenario can even though they tested the same in the chamber. Generally a larger speaker is needed in a larger room to fill it but at the same time a speaker can be to big for a room also and can not breath correctly and just not sound right. But the 2 speakers could have the same output rating when measured in the chamber. Like you say the chamber does not take into effect real world conditions. They are not designed to so that is where the difference comes from. I believe that is what paul was trying to say. If you use the same testing equipment and took the 2 sets of speakers that tested the same in the chamber to a large auditorium and tested from say the middle the room the larger speaker will more than likely measure much higher then it's small counterpart. That is not to knock the small speaker or to praise the big guy. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1290 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, I disagree. If they both measure to 95 dB sensitivity, with the same frequency response and dispersion, they will fill a large room equally well. Otherwise they simply would not measure the same 1m away. There's no magic involved here. If you can get them both to 110 dB at 1 m with enough Watts, then they will sound equally loud 10 m away. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2642 Registered: Dec-03 | Peter however it works out mathmatically I don't know but I have to disagree with yu as I've seen it in action. Speakers with simular senativity ratings but it took the larger speaker to fill the room where the little guy just could not without blowing up. So maybe it's the power handling deal meaning that the big speaker can produce the same amount of spl as the little guy but it does not have to work as hard meaning to produce the same amount of sound the little guy has to really move it's parts quite a bit more then the big guy to produce the same amount of sound. So in essence the little guy just has to work harder. Which again comes back to the bigger speaker needed to fill the large room unless you work your little speaker to death. Maybe that's how we need to word it. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2643 Registered: Dec-03 | Generally that is how I gage how hard a speaker is working and weather I'm pushing it to hard is by putting my hand on the driver to see how far it is moving unless of'course I allready hear the tell tall signs of the speaker giving up. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5250 Registered: May-04 | Kegger - Your argument suggests Paul is living in a civic auditorium or maybe he brings his CV's down to the homeless shelter. There is no need for a large speaker with or without horns in an average sized room. Just how big is the room you use these speakers in, Paul, and how far away do you sit? Oh, yes, please respond to my two previous posts. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 962 Registered: May-05 | Now horns are the way Jan, been thinking about them for quite awhile now, like some nice small JBL horns, three in fact, if you get my meaning. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2644 Registered: Dec-03 | Agreed Jan I was just saying that the smaller speaker has to work harder to produce the same spl as the larger speaker and it becomes even more apparent in a larger room where you are trying to fill a bigger space. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2645 Registered: Dec-03 | Peter, Sorry! that is what I meant all along and I guess I did as bad a job explaining it as paul did. I believe that is what paul meant to, At least that is what I thought. Allright I'm done. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2049 Registered: Jan-05 | Devils, Dont get me wrong, the RF7s are obviously very good speakers and Im not trying to knock them. For my application, my impression was that they didnt do the job any better than what I already have. As soon as something does, I'll be impressed. Kegger, arent you the guy who owns, or has owned both of those models?? If so, feel free to toss in your 2 cents. Somebody has in the past, but I cant remember who. Kegger, Once again, I totally am on the same page with what you're saying. I've also compared big and small speakers who 'on paper' have very similar sensitivity ratings, but the reality is quite different. At least somebody else understands, and has compared. Ahhhh....so now we've come full circle. Are sensitivity specs on paper, really equal?? I think not......not in real life situations they arent. Quinn, I have a better Idea. Why dont you place the acends on top of the CVs to that you can achieve a larger total gross weight(including the CV speakerstands). HEH |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 966 Registered: May-05 |  Guys this all sounds like the A&B testing of loudspeakers, old hat but still the results of the final outcome are conclusive evidence, proof that one is different than the other, in terms of sensitivity frequency response power handling, colourization of the sound etc, etc, etc.... As well the pursuit for truth, within the loudspeaker capability and overall performance... |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2646 Registered: Dec-03 | Paul which "both models" are you refering to? I own 3 RC7's which is basically an RC5 in an mtm config but with the horn from the RF7. It's the center channel that goes with the RF7 but you stand them up and unbolt the horn and rotate it. Those sit on a stack of double 12"s and I biamp. A lot of people are not fans of horns, I have no problem with that. But there very easy to drive and my 300B amp makes then sound really really nice then the solid state amp does the bass duty to the stack of 12"s. The third is my center channel. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2050 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, My room is roughly 20x25x8 with 1 hallway leading out, and an open flight of stairs leading up. I sit 14feet from the fronts, and I have been known to listen to movies much louder than you'll ever hear in theaters....much louder. At least for certain brief dramatic segments for added impact. I didnt realize how loud I like my movies until I went to see star wars3 with my daughter in the spring. That was the first time in years that I've gone 'out' to the movies, and boy was that an audio disappointment.(great flick though) |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 968 Registered: May-05 |  Paul, How do you know this, without using a SPL db meter, how can you honesty say that.... The pursuit for truth, within the loudspeaker capability and overall performance can only be upheld by using an SPL db meter... |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2647 Registered: Dec-03 | As far as the sensativity specs go it's how you look at it. Yes they are equal BUT it does make a smaller speaker have to move it's parts more to create the same SPL as a larger speaker does "generaly". So as I stated I believe a smaller speaker has to work harder to fill a large room comparred to what a larger speaker has to do. But that can be argued as what classifies work? If thay both take the same amount of power to achieve this then some can say they are working the same. But I'm classifying it as how much does the speaker have to move or do to create the same spl as the larger speaker. For the most part in a normal room a quote smaller speaker with a sub will do evrything that is needed. But If you have a larger room or really need to crank it up you may want to consider some larger more power handling speakers. That is my point of view on the subject. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2051 Registered: Jan-05 | Kegger, It must have been somebody else. Somebody in this forum owns both the RF7s and D9s and made some comparisons. Whoever it was basically said he uses his CVs for movies, and RF7s for music only, or something to that effect. If I ever did have to replace speakers, I'd probably lean towards Klipsch. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2648 Registered: Dec-03 | I do have D9's also and recently picked up a pair of mint D3's at a garage sale for $20. When or if I really want to rock out The D9's or my yamaha DJ speakers do the job! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2052 Registered: Jan-05 | Also, was it you that I asked about the crossovers?? Anyway, I was curious and asking about it previously so I recently got a copy of the specs, and the woofer crossover is 500hz. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 969 Registered: May-05 |  Paul, Playing the "Cerwin Vega's" and the SVS to louder than the cinema's PA system, sounds exciting, exciting to know that they can perform this well, but there is this issue. Loudspeakers should be nothing more than a pass-through of information that was originally recorded by the artist or the re-recording mixers, to you, that's what It should be, it should play a roll in how it sounds, it should be accurate, and lots of loudspeakers do, as most loudspeakers have distortion, some to some degree and the louder you play them they all have more, there is the (quads) that sound fantastic but they too will give a distortion Patten. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 212 Registered: Dec-04 | Paul, I don't know how loud they play movies in the US, but they are much too loud for my liking in the UK. You say ".... I have been known to listen to movies much louder than you'll ever hear in theaters....much louder. At least for certain brief dramatic segments for added impact." - are you not in danger of damaging your hearing permanently? Maybe you already have, which would be why the cinema sound system sounds a bit tame? Andy, We know what your favourite pic of Gillian Anderson is now. No need to repeat it so often! Please! |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 970 Registered: May-05 | No worries sport.... Paul, Also can you play the "Cerwin Vega's" with the correct amount of power and given its motor structure like your mains can you define the 12inc bass driver as a subwoofer, would you try and use the mains as a subwoofer over the SVS. Can you're "Cerwin Vega's get down to 20Hz with power and accuracy, that's the question... |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2053 Registered: Jan-05 | Andy, That's why you need big speakers. So you can play them more loudly without them distorting. The CVs can play at sick levels without even breaking a sweat. If I ever tried to do to a pair of boutiques what I do to my CVs on a regular basis, I would surely blow them to bits. Anyway, as I've said before, I dont listen to entire movies that way because I value my hearing. I only get things really cranking during the big dramatic segments. |
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