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Speaker advice

 

ddog
Unregistered guest
i am considering upgrading my current speakers (mirage 650's). they just don't seem to do it for me anymore. I generally only use them for listening to cd's (rock, folk, blues, etc). the room is about 15' x 20' with a vaulted clg. they will be driven by onkyo m.501 (150w /side), onkyo p.301 combo. If anyone had any suggestions re a good speaker match i would greatly appreciate it.
paradign studio 40's?
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 234
Registered: Feb-05
Studio 40 v3's are awesome. Listen for yourself as only you can decide. Take some of your favorite music and audition as many speakers as possible. Make sure to take into account what kind of electronics they are using. Make them use equipment comparable to yours and better. Also take into account the room your listening in. The audition is important. Don't forget that in store auditions aren't all that is available to you. Check out speaker manufacturers like Ascend online. If their products interest you don't be afraid to order and audition them, you have 30 days to send them back. In other words you have a lot of options. Enjoy your shopping.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 521
Registered: Jan-05
I wouldnt consider small 2-way bookshelf speakers for a room that size if you expect 'big' sound. The studio 100s look interesting though.

You get what you pay for........
 

jimvm
Unregistered guest
I respectfully disagree with Paul. When I was considering speakers, the Studio 40's and the Studio 20's were both on my very short list. I wanted the 20's (to me they sound better than the 40's; better imaging), but my salesman cautioned against it because of the size of my room -- 18' x 18' x 12' and open to other rooms; all in all, well in excess of 4000 cubic feet. I got the 20's and they "fill the room(s)" quite nicely. They are very robust speakers for their size.

I think the Studio 40's are up to the task in your room. They are awesome speakers.

That having been said, I will echo what Arthur said about auditioning a number of speakers. While many believe Paradigm to make great speakers for the money (me included), speaker sound is very subjective. You may well prefer a different type of sound.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 522
Registered: Jan-05
Well, in that case......

enjoy your 'tiny' 2-way bookshelf speakers. Im sure they sound even better than studio100s.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 458
Registered: Feb-05
Paul, one contributor advises that speaker dimensions are the only thing that prospective purchasers should consider. You know of whom I speak?
 

New member
Username: Mauimusicman

Post Number: 5
Registered: Apr-05
Well, in that case....

enjoy your 'low-fi' Cerwin Vega and Bose setup. Im sure they sound even better than fingernails on a chalkboard.

M.Musicman Ph.D. Musicology (Prince Style)
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 391
Registered: Feb-04
well, at least on paper there's only a 1 dB difference in sensitivity between the studio 20 and the Studio 100:

http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteReferenceProduct/RModels/StudioSeries/StudioS pecs.html

Low frequency extension goes from 36 Hz (Studio 20) to 28 Hz (studio 100).

There don't have unsimilar specs...
Disclaimer: I've never heard either of them.
 

New member
Username: Jimvm

Gonzales, Louisiana U.S.A.

Post Number: 1
Registered: Apr-05
Paul - I don't understand why you found it necessary to become derisive just because someone disagreed with you. And if you read my post carefully, you will see that I did not say that Studio 20's or 40's sounded better than Studio 100's. Which sound better is purely subjective. What I was trying to convey is that Studio 40's are robust speakers and should be sufficient for ddog's purpose.

It seems more and more that folks on this forum can't disagree without it becoming personal.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 394
Registered: Feb-04
Yeah. Let's all relax a bit. This place wasn't like this a year ago, but most of the regulars from then seem to have disappeared (hawk, therealelitefan, landroval, My Rantz)
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 124
Registered: Jun-04
As long as no one takes this personally, the best way to settle which Paradigms to get would be a pair Ohm Microwalsh Talls.

I've compared 'em, and there's no comparison!
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 126
Registered: Jun-04
Good point, Peter. I didn't realize their absence until you mentioned it.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 524
Registered: Jan-05
There are good bookshelf speakers on the market, and they have their place, but when it comes to reproducing 'big' movie theater sound, they are what they are.........small, and they come up short.

That's my only point. Im sure they would make nice surround speakers though.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 525
Registered: Jan-05
Jim,

My only point is that I have never heard a pair of bookshelf speakers worthy of being placed 'up-front' in a HT surround format.

Suggesting to ddog that he replace one pair of bookshelves for another seems silly. Maybe it's time to move up.........and not laterally since his current set doesnt satisfy his needs. Why one person would 'upgrade' to bookshelf speakers is beyond me.
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 256
Registered: Feb-05
A 15x20 room gives you alot of options. That is still small enough room that Studio 20's or 40's with a sub should be adequate. All models in Paradigm Reference series have been improved with the v3. But again you have a lot of options. Paul does have a point that small bookshelf pseakers probably won't make it but the Studio 20's deliver more volume than the average small bookshelf speaker. If you are using a good sub it shouldn't matter. It really depends on your expectations. As Paul said you won't get big theater sound out of small bookshelf speakers but if you are looking for versatility and music is your first priority then all options should remain open. As a matter of fact I heard a great new tiny bookshelf speaker the other day with a matching sub that was justincredible. The brand is Era, check it out guys they are truly wonderful. The sub is magnificent. Created to provide all the benefits of a REL for $1000. Anyway, I got off track. You have lots of options, keep in mind what you want out of a system.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1000
Registered: Oct-04
jimvn: back when I was auditioning bookshelf speakers, I had the opportunity to take home and listen to both Paradigm studio 20 and 40. Frankly, I preferred the 20s to the 40s. Sound just seemed more natural - in my very humble opinion.

Of course, later, when I heard the B&W 705s, well, I had to have them! Bought them used, and am happiest ever after. BUT - please note this: I listen to mainly classical and opera. For your personal listening, the B&Ws are "probably" not the best.

Arthur K has some good ideas - but in the end, only YOUR ears can tell what pleases you most. And for the thousandth time - what sounds "good" in a showroom may sound "awful" in your home. . .

Respectfully. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 127
Registered: Jun-04
" what sounds "good" in a showroom may sound "awful" in your home. . . "
Interesting point, Larry. I still think that's a flaw in Paradigms. They attempt to grap you in the showroom but that sound just doesn't hold up in the long run at home.
 

Gold Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1005
Registered: Oct-04
Cornelius: If I might - all speakers try to "grab" you in the showroom - or rather, the salesmen hope that they grab you! (grin) I can't count the number of times that i've auditioned speakers or other gear, and have been most impressed. But - once in my home, something is lacking, and I get frustrated.

Jan V. on the "Old Dogs" thread will tell you that your room is one of the main culprits - and in my case, he was very correct.

Even my beloved B&W 705s sounded much better in the showroom than they did in my living room. UNTIL I read some comments Online about the Onkyo receiver I was using - and how it rolled off the bass by 6 db below 100 Hz. That explained what happened to the B&W sound - and after I upgraded to the NAD 763 - Ahhhhh! Those B&Ws began to sing!

It is good to remember that the "sound" of speakers is not complete within themselves, but also dependant on the rest of your equipment. So, if your Paradigms in the showroom are driven by, say, Rotel amps and really hi-end CD players, the sound should be pretty good.

In your home, however, say you have a JVC CD player and a low-power "big box store" receiver. Aha! Instant unhappiness - I'll guarantee it!

End of sermon - excuse my verbosity. I hereby defer to the more knowledgeable ones on this thread.

Respectfully. . .
 

New member
Username: Jimvm

Gonzales, Louisiana U.S.A.

Post Number: 4
Registered: Apr-05
Paul - ddog said he wanted to upgrade his speakers and specifically asked for comments on the Studio 40's, which he apparently feels could be considered an upgrade. I agree with him.

IMO, upgrading speakers does not necessarily mean having to go from bookshelves to floorstanders. In fact within many speaker brands, the floorstanders and bookshelves contain identical drivers and crossovers, e.g., the Studio 40's and the Studio 60's. The only difference is a little bit lower end extension created by the larger box. Along with the lower extension you often get a little more boxiness and lose some of the imaging. So, in many cases, bookshelves and a sub can give sound, even "big" movie theater sound, which is superior to floorstanders; even floorstanders with a sub. That's my humble opinion and I believe it is shared by many HT enthusiasts.

Larry - My auditioning experience was much the same as yours. I preferred the 20's to the 40's. And when I heard the B&W 705's, I was mesmerized. I was not inclined to buy used, so my rationale in getting the 20's was that they sounded 85% as good as the 705's but were only about half the price. For me it was a no-brainer.

Cornelius - I submit that all speakers attempt to grab you in the showroom. And all speakers sound different at home; you're in a different acoustical environment and they are bound to sound different. If it is a flaw, it is a flaw not restricted to Paradigm but is shared by all speakers. Given the popularity of Paradigm speakers, they must sound pretty good to a lot of folks once they get them home.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 527
Registered: Jan-05
Jim,

I disagree entirely. If you're going to upgrade, you might as well make it noticable. Going from bookshelf to bookshelf is a waste of time and money. If you want to step-up........geezz.....STEP UP!!

Why pick hairs between tiny soundstage 'wannabe' speakers.

If you are a classical music fan, maybe bookshelf speakers are right for you......

If you enjoy other types of music, or use your surround system as a foundation for a HT........whoah.....you're missing the boat by going ...........'SMALL'..because thats what you get..........small sound. If you have bookshelf speakers and think you have 'real' theater sound, you're kidding yourself.
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 257
Registered: Feb-05
Paradigm's design team is engineering their speakers to sound good at home. Knowing 2 Paradigm dealers personally I can tell you that one of their complaints is that the Paradigms sound so balanced that nothing stands out on the showroom floor making it difficult to sell them against some other brands. Word of mouth about their performance at home and years of outstanding performance on owner satisfaction surveys has been the driving force in Paradigms rise as a speaker manufacturer. I listen primarily to acoustic jazz and orchestral classical with some chamber music and occasional rock and pop thrown in for interest. My experience with the Reference Series is different than what I've read here. I found that the Studio 40's provided a more realistic balance than did the 20's, you lose just a hair in imaging but gain immensly in overall tonal balance. I did also listen to the B&W 700 series and indeed they are "to die for", but at the price I find the Studio 40's (and 20's for that matter) to be incomparable values.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 465
Registered: Feb-05
Paul is absolutely right. If you primarily listen to chamber music, quality bookshelves can be great. But for true to life HT, they just won't cut it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1009
Registered: Oct-04
Arthur: I agree with your comments above - but if one could get the 705s - used only 3 months and in perfect shape - for 65% of new-cost. Ahhh. . .

So I bought them! And have not looked back. . .

Oh, I nearly bought the Paradigm Studio 20s - took them home - where my wife took a look at them and said that she didn't care what they sounded like - she thought the vinyl woodgrain looked "cheap." Hmmm. . .WAF certainly plays a big part in my purchases! (grin) They went back to the shop. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 529
Registered: Jan-05
Bookshelf speaker manufacturers should place a disclaimer on their box......."open only for classical music".
 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
if you don't have much space, bookshelfs will do. if your room can accomodate 100 people, then get big speakers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 532
Registered: Jan-05
I agree that you can get away with smaller speakers as roomsize decreases, but disagree about the 'lack of space' copout as an excuse to buy bookshelf speakers.

Even a large monitor will typically have a footprint of 19"x19" or less........c'mon. If you cant find room for a 19" square, I suggest you move your HT out of the closet. When you consider the space required for speakerstands, there really is no difference in space requirements.

I dont buy that excuse at all......

Now if you live in an apartment, and dont want to get evicted, OK......I'll buy that, and maybe a small bookshelf is the way to go until you buy your own home.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 128
Registered: Jun-04
Hey Jimvm -I guess it all comes down to perception and not all speakers are designed to grab the listener in the showroom. Richard Vandersteen speaks of his speakers as NOT being showroom grabbers. Of course now I'm getting into a time coherent design...

Now this is my perception, but when I auditioned a pair of Studio 60s a few months ago, I found them to be hilighting frequency extremes. The overly bright nature gave the illusion of more detail in the mix, but I (and others in the room) found them far from neutral or balanced.

Keep in mind I used to be a Paradigm fan (I still think their entry level speakers are some of the best), but once I started listening more and discovering different speaker designs (time/phase coherent, Walsh design, Planars...) I started to rethink what I've been listening to for so many years. So, it's not an attack on Paradigm or anyone's taste in sound, just my experience with 99% of the speakers out there.
 

New member
Username: Jimvm

Gonzales, Louisiana U.S.A.

Post Number: 5
Registered: Apr-05
Paul - People choose their speakers for a variety of reasons -- sound, aesthetics, placement options, what they can afford, etc. Not everyone shares a need or desire for "big" speakers. And bigger does not necessarily equal better; sometimes bigger equals boxier sounding; sometimes bigger equals loss of imaging; sometimes bigger equals, well, just too big. I submit that most folks who have elected to purchase bookshelf speakers are very happy with their choices.

If one uses good bookshelves coupled with a good subwoofer, are they not getting all of the sound that the human ear can hear; all the sound that floorstanders put out?

The tone of your postings and use of such language as "tiny", "come up short", "wannabe speakers", and "copout" seem to me to be attempts to demean those who, for whatever reason, chose bookshelf speakers. I don't understand why anyone would feel the need to do that.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 468
Registered: Feb-05
I find nothing demeaning in Paul's language. He like others has stong opinions on the subject-just like your unsubstantiated claim"...that most folks who have elected to purchase bookshelf speakers are very happy with their choices." Some of the posters are just thin skinned and take offense when someone disagrees with them. I say too bad.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 537
Registered: Jan-05
I'm not disagreeing with all that Jim says. Bigger has nothing to do with speaker quality, and Im not trying to suggest otherwise.

If your main listening pleasure consists of accoustical jass, opera, and classical chamber music, bookshelf speakers are perfect for you.

If you're interest is movies and creating a 'big' soundstage, it's a totally different situation, and small is what it is............SMALL.

Whether the 'tiny' speaker has the audiophile stamp of approval or not, if you're using it for rock music or movies, they'll sound terrible and probably very quickly crash and burn. It will be off to the garbage can......At least they'll both easily fit into a standard 50 gallon can....Heh

Not only do they sound 'small', but they arent very durable either. Speakers like that wouldnt last 3 weeks in my house because I'd most likely be trying to squeeze 10-pounds of output from a mini 5-pound source. At least I wouldnt have to pay extra for a bulk pickup from our trashman.
 

New member
Username: Jimvm

Gonzales, Louisiana U.S.A.

Post Number: 6
Registered: Apr-05
Dale - You found nothing demeaning the language of Paul's previous postings. Well, we disagree about that. If you go back through the postings on this thread, you will see that Paul gave his opinion. I disagreed; respectfully I might add. Then what happened? Paul retorted with a completely unnecessary and demeaning comment. So, who is thin skinned?

I'd like to think that folks can disagree without getting confrontational; we apparently disagree about that too. And what's more, Paul's a big boy; he can speak for himself.

When someone poses a question on an audio forum, folks are free to offer their opinions. Other folks may disagree. The original poster is free to choose which advice he will follow. Paul gave his opinion; I gave mine. I was not intending to start an arguement; just offering my humble opinion.

Paul - I'd like to think that we can agree to disagree about speaker size without further rancor.

ddog - For my part, I apoligize for the digression in your thread.
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 261
Registered: Feb-05
Paul uses Cerwin Vega and Bose speakers, 'nuff said! We all have our own personal tastes and applications for our speakers. CV's may fit Paul's needs and B&W 705's may meet someone else's. No, bookshelf speakers cannot produce as much sound as Wilson Maxx 2's but they can convey all of the information and emotion in most music as successfully and in some cases more successfully than some large speakers. In any discussion like this we need to discuss quality. In any size speaker quality varies and so does a speakers ability to convey musicical information in a way that the artist would recognize as his or her intentions. All speakers incuding bose speak to someone and we should recognize that.
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 262
Registered: Feb-05
By the way Paul I did not mean that as a put down, everyone should enjoy their system as much as you and I do.
 

New member
Username: Mauimusicman

Post Number: 8
Registered: Apr-05
I meant it as a put down Paul. I want you to cry yourself to sleep tonight and dream of nothing but GMA Europas.

M.Musicman Ph.D. Musicology (Prince Style)
 

New member
Username: Jimvm

Gonzales, Louisiana U.S.A.

Post Number: 9
Registered: Apr-05
"Jimvan (sic), you're entitled to your worthless opinion."

"Honorable" Dale M. Wiley - You know, that remark was totally uncalled for. It was rude, boorish, juvenile and contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion. What's more, it violated the rules of this forum which state, in part, "When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. Flames, insults, and personal attacks will not be tolerated. It's fine to disagree strongly with opinions, ideas, and facts, but always with respect for the other person."

Frankly, I would have thought that a person of your stature would behave in a more "judicious" manner.


I have been participating in this forum for almost a year now and recently became a member. Now, I'm thinking I may have made a mistake in becoming a member. Frankly, because of a few trollers and flame-throwers, this forum appears to be going to hell in a handbasket. A number of very knowledgeable members are no longer participating because of this behavior. I don't see this type of behavior on other fora. Either the moderators of this forum are asleep at the wheel or they just don't care about the rules.

I believe, given the behavior of a few, the forum administrator needs to impose some discipline. If not, more people who are not in the flame-thrower camp are going to leave, including me. It will be no great loss to the forum if I leave -- I'm not a greatest contributor -- but there are quite a few really knowledgeable people left. If they leave this forum it will result in a forum populated by only flame-throwers and folks with chips on their collective shoulders.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 545
Registered: Jan-05
Jim,

As with any forum, people come.......and people go. People typically post for awhile, and then get bored and vanish.

At some point in the near future, I'll do the same and it has nothing to do with specific posters. All forums of anykind have a high turnover rate.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 399
Registered: Feb-04
Paul,

You may like to think that people come and people go without reason, but I happen to agree with jim. People leave when they get sick of the useless flame wars and the insults.

You wrote:
At some point in the near future, I'll do the same and it has nothing to do with specific posters.

And maybe when things get back to normal, some people will come back.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 552
Registered: Jan-05
I disagree.....

By saying that, you're assuming they would all continue in the forum forever, and that is not the case. At some point, forums lose their novelty, and people lose interest and leave.

As for the flame wars...............dont kid yourself. There is no more/less flaming here now than any other point in time in this forum, or any other forum for that matter.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 78
Registered: Sep-04
I beg to disagree and fully expect to get charbroiled for that. I joined this forum a while ago and there were many knowledgeable users here who gave good advice on my equipment questions, I learned a lot here. But they all seem to be gone & have largely been replaced by a new crop of users who seem unable to conduct a civil discussion.

It's really a shame & I'm waiting for the day they get bored and leave. It also seems to be a 'net-wide phenomenon from what I'm seeing on other fora.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jimvm

Gonzales, Louisiana U.S.A.

Post Number: 11
Registered: Apr-05
I participate in five other audio/HT fora. Like you Chris, I have seen an increase in the kind of childish behavior we're talking about but I must say that the other fora do take steps to curb it. On the other fora I see more comments interjected by the moderators, more stopped threads and occasionally someone gets their membership revoked.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 403
Registered: Feb-04
Paul,

You registered only 3 months ago so I wonder if you know what this place was like a year ago. Go back and look at archived threads and I doubt you'll find the same level of flaming. I've noticed the difference, and so have others. It appears that you weren't here at the time.

As for people losing interest and leaving, I'd argue that it might be true for other types of forums (e.g. concerning a specific piece of hardware) but audio forums are often populated by diehard fans who stay a very long time. That is the case in the Klipsch forum (a very _nice_ place, with very little flaming).

So some of us are hoping that you will tone it down a notch. Or perhaps even lose interest and leave.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dpriwin

Post Number: 52
Registered: Sep-04
The usefulness of ecoustics has been greatly diminished over the last few months. Lots of threads have been reduced to post wars like this one. Posters go way beyond the topic enunciating their sleeve-worn beliefs.

If my experience is typical, most people lurk for a while before posting for the first time. Most first time posters already have an idea of who is who and what they will answer. With that in mind, don't try to put people down in each thread. Most everyone knows already what you think.

If you have serious, useful advice to pass on, please post. If you will repeat for the n-th time the virtues of your preferred setup, keep it to yourself - we all know what most of you like. There are cable lovers, big box pushers, separate worshipers. We know who you are, and you are entitled to your taste. Please don't push it onto others.

There are valid questions in this forum that are not being answered. People ask about Paradigm and out come the Paradigm bashers. NAD already suffered the same fate. What's next?

About a year ago we had posters who cared to help out sharing their knowledge. They are not posting, yet reading what we write. If a nominal degree of civility is reached they may post again. Should we care? Yes, because the current posts don't amount to anything.

There are no absolutes in audio. Stop trying to push a single agenda.

With that in mind, and although I have not contributed in any way to the betterment of the acoustic enjoyment of anyone (hence my absence will not be missed at all) I will not post again.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 258
Registered: Nov-04
i find it rather amusing to see a bunch of "adults" act like a bunch of five year-olds
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 477
Registered: Feb-05
Don't like it, don't read it. You can't tell people what to write or how to write it. I don't like sitcoms. So I don't watch them. I don't waste my time writing and whinning to the networks. Want "civility" all the time? Start your own site and edit out the comments that don't meet your standards.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jimvm

Gonzales, Louisiana U.S.A.

Post Number: 12
Registered: Apr-05
Daniel - Please don't allow the flame-throwers to influence your decision to leave -- at least not yet. You sound like someone who has some common sense and I (and I'm sure others) hate to see folks like yourself jump ship. Besides, if you'll go back through this thread you'll see that a couple of the more egregious postings have been removed. That's an encouraging sign! It may be that the moderators/administrator recognize the problem and are willing to begin taking action.

Stick around for a while longer and see what happens.
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

The Land Dow...

Post Number: 1755
Registered: Aug-04
Christopher,

I too, on occassion, have been drawn in to act like a five year old - mainly because I thought it was a bit of fun goading some of the idiots that pervade this forum.

But there are rules and they are made for the benefit of all who care to use this forum for helping others, gaining knowledge and, maybe a little freindly comraderie and debate.

Mr Wiley, people don't know to avoid the rubbish written here until they read it. Everyone has their opinions are are entitled to express them as long as they do so in a reasonably intelligent and polite manner. So if you don't like those sort of standards, why don't you start your own site - I'm sure you'd fill it very quickly with infintile, crude, and meanless threads.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 481
Registered: Feb-05
Who says it has to be in a "polite manner"? Who appointed you administrator or keeper of the site? What makes your opinion regarding the manner in which writers post any more important than those of others who enjoy lively, spirited and sometimes heated debate? Again, if you don't like it, go somewhere else. Create your own "Welikeitpolite.com"
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 267
Registered: Feb-05
Thank you Chris L, Jimvm, My Rantz, and Daniel for speaking much of what has been on my mind and that I have on occasion expressed. I would hate to see potentially valuable members either leave or never post for fear of ridicule. I have only been here a couple of months and I hope to be here for a while. I am convinced that as long as those of us who value this site and understand the rules stick around and continue our civil discussions the others will get bored and go away.
 

Gold Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1020
Registered: Oct-04
Mr. Wiley: Sometimes, sir, it is prudent for one to take one's own advice. . . and have a nice site.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 259
Registered: Nov-04
i think ill just learn to ignore those posters who feel that they do not need to be polite or civil. contrary to what dale and paul may think, when i was first snooping through this forum, around september/november, there was hardly ever threads filled with these tirades. i remember reading very informative posts where people respected each other's thoughts whether they agreed or not. ironically, ever since i have tried to be more involved in this forum i have seen a trend of people trying to force their own agendas and opinions on other people. like mentioned before, most people understand the views of others, paul loves his CVs and inisists "massive" is the key, and will burn anyone who thinks otherwise, maui feels the urge on every post he can find to rant about crossovers and his GMA europas, and unfortunately i often see dale tailing whoever he can, namely paul, to rant and yell at other people. if you go the the home video section you will see that every other post is a flame war. dale you are correct that we have the option to not read or to not participate in something we disagree with. but in something as open ended as this it is the responsibility of the participants to respect each other. the reason that many of the respected posters here, jan, myrantz, frank abela, Peter Galbraith just to name a few are respected is not just their knowledge but their respect to help those that may sound stupid or those that are rude. there are always going to be those that feel they can do what ever they please and in a sense you can here. i think it would be benificial to this community if we atleast tried to be civil with our discussions here. not to say we cant disagree or feel passionate about something we believe in, but we should try to be civil about it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1021
Registered: Oct-04
Arthur K: I note with interest your praise for Paradigm speakers - which I agree with, in general terms. Much as you probably agree that my B&W 705s are "pretty good speakers."

But when we get into the bookshelf vs. floorstander speaker debate there are many elements to consider - not the least of which is the type of music to be played. Or, as this discussion thread has brought out, the playback of DVD movies - home theatre, if you will.

The earlier posters are quite correct; bookshelves are not "true sound" if you want to replicate a concert hall. But, for a medium-sized room, with classical or small-group performances, and with a suitable subwoofer (mine is a 10" Mordaunt-Short with 300w amp) they do a pretty good job.

For real "movie house" experience, you have to do what a doctor-friend of mine did: he hired a hi-end audio house to create an entire "theatre" in a room of his house.

Thus, he has a 60" plasma screen - two 12" subwoofers, and one dozen speakers built in to the side and back walls of the room. to say the least, when he plays movies, you are "in" the picture! Never, ever, have I heard such sound.

Of course - he spent $125,000 on the electronics alone in the room - plus the cost of all the carpet, walnut panelling, chairs, etc. Obviously, he's a tad richer than I am.

My point - sound comes in all sizes and qualities. I believe that Arthur has, in many postings, said that one should do the best one can within his own budget. Good for him.

We all wish for "the best," but few of us ever attain that lofty sound-goal.

For now, my B&Ws are great, but I realize that I COULD get better sound - if I had, oh, say, about another $100,000 to spend. . .

Respectfully. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

The Land Dow...

Post Number: 1756
Registered: Aug-04
Dale

I won't keep this 'debate' going but to answer your question - no one appointed me administrator or keeper of the site - I merely pointed out that there are rules by which members are asked to follow. It's not that hard to understand why.

You ask, 'Who says it has to be in a "polite manner?"' and I say that if you care to look up the rules you will find the answer to your question. But more importantly, Dale, what's so wrong with being polite or 'courteous' if that's a better word?
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 268
Registered: Feb-05
Well said Larry R, I couldn't agree more. As I have said, different speakers for different applications. And yes, I think B&W 705's are fabulous speakers.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jimvm

Gonzales, Louisiana U.S.A.

Post Number: 13
Registered: Apr-05
Recognizing that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and not everyone may agree with me, I think the 705's are gorgeous to look at as well sounding spectacular.
 

New member
Username: Mauimusicman

Post Number: 9
Registered: Apr-05
Let the lovefest begin.

(no offense)
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

The Land Dow...

Post Number: 1760
Registered: Aug-04
Well I agree with you Jimvm, I am envious of Larry's 705's. My next upgrade (to replace the JBL XTi-60 mains) may be for a pair of 603's unless I can convince my wife that another $1500 (Aud) would be worth spending on the 604's. But then, after recently upgrading my rears to the 602's I'm not so sure another pair of those wouldn't be the shot.

As we use an B&W LCR for a center, I feel having Messers Bowers and Wilkins all around might be sonically better, though the JBL's do seem to blend okay. It's difficult really, to know what's the best route unless hearing the various speakers in place.

As far as floorstanders vs bookshelf vs standmount it's all very subjective and dependendant on so many variables. As long as one is content with what one hears - not so much what others may tell you. Though, it never hurts to listen to good advice.

 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 482
Registered: Feb-05
Nothing wrong with being courteous as long as it is reciprocal. However, at least for purposes of this forum, I do not subscribe to the turn the other cheek philosophy. I believe if one is attacked, (s)he should defend. I can only speak for myself. But virtually every time that my tone has been less than "civil", it has been a result of some unjustified provocation. And that seems to be the case with many posters who are just not willing to put up with the bull. If you want civil, give civil. I'm through with this topic. But I am not leaving this forum nor will I promise to give any more or less than I receive.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 483
Registered: Feb-05
Nothing wrong with courteous as long as it is reciprocal. For purposes of this forum however, I do not subscribe to the turn the other cheek philosophy.
 

Gold Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1022
Registered: Oct-04
Arthur and Jimvn - well, gosh (blush) thanks. I only have these because of a "fluke," when I found them Online for a fraction of their value. But again, please - they are my "dream" speakers, but not necessarily everybody's dream speakers. I don't want - and my wife will NOT have - floorstanders in our living room. So much for that! (grin)

Maui - OK, but lovefests are allright, aren't they? I mean - no harm done. . .

Mr. Wiley - you are dealing with a bunch of people who are well-educated, and who maintain a certain degree of civility in order to exchange ideas in a sensible manner. Perhaps we are too formal for you. Perhaps you feel us "out of touch" with whatever passes for modern idea-exchanges. But I think I can speak for all here, in that we have enough angst in our lives, without resorting to exchanges which create more tension than we already feel.

I am not being critical - merely explaining to you, sir, that what you may find on the much-lesser forums such as Audioholics does not hold true here. Arthur K, My Rantz and others often disagree - the "fine art" of music reproduction being what it is. But just because we disagree does not give us license to lash out at the other person's ideas - so long, of course, that we do not come under unwarranted attack of our character or principles.

I came to eCoustics because I literally got sick to my stomach with the ridiculous, juvenile, obscene and thoroughly obnoxious behavior of the small-minded people on other forums. I don't understand it. Is it something to do with our stressed-out society?

Bottom line: I tend to respect those who show respect - even if we disagree, which we often do. So I follow a Christian-Buddhist philosophy of trying my best to be fair-minded.

I do not mean to "preach," only to suggest to you that this is a "special" place on the Internet, and those of us who cherish it do not go gently into that good night of abuse. In any form...

Respectfully. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1023
Registered: Oct-04
Daniel: If you read this sir - do not go away in haste and anger, please.

Many of us on this forum have had similar desires, and have regretted our shortsightedness.

As my dear and brilliant wife would say: "take two deep breaths and call me when you regain consciousness." (grin) Well. . .

It's only audio, for Goodness' sake. Not worth fighting about. Not worth insults. Not worth anything except a fair exchange of ideas and comments. Period.

So stick around - we need all the brain-power we can get, OK? OK. . .
 

New member
Username: Mauimusicman

Post Number: 10
Registered: Apr-05
Nothing wrong with a lovefest as long as it doesnt get too out of hand.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 560
Registered: Jan-05
You guys are waaaaaaaay off base.

Actually, there are very few posters who have profiles older than 12 months in this forum. People join the forum because they're in the market for a piece of HiFi gear, and after they make the purchase and get situated, they leave.

My Rantz is one of the most senior member I've seen actively posting in the Home Audio section, and he only goes back about 8 months.

heck, I've only been a member since January, and Ive probably been around here longer than 75% of current posters.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 561
Registered: Jan-05
Chris in a previous post was talking like he was one of the 'old timers' talking about the 'good old days', and he's only been around for 6 months......

See what I mean?? I agree that he is one of the more senior members at 6 months.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 188
Registered: Jan-05
There are other (constructive) forums though with people that do hang around a lot longer. The Home Theater Spot is a good example. There are many a poster that have been regged there for years.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 260
Registered: Nov-04
paul once again you take things out of context to support your own agenda. the reason i brought it up was to point out that even for the short time i have been reading this forum the general attitude has changed. 6 months is not that long. i always make sure posters know that i am still a noob and make it clear that others will have better advice. i never stated or tried to allude that i was one of the old timers here. heck im still 21 and still have much to learn about hifi. i will agree that most just come here a couple times for recomendations then leave. paul if you ever look at the archived posts you will see that some people posted here unregistered for a period of time. some are even registered back at dec. 2003 and still poking their heads here and there. i think we can agree that maui is not a new face as the registered name may indicate, regardless of whether or not it really is him. how about we stop with the exchanges and go on, does that sound ok with you guys or do you people still have something that you need to be critical about?
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

The Land Dow...

Post Number: 1768
Registered: Aug-04
Actually Paul, I've been here for about 18 mths. I left in in a huff once and returned and re-registered. My previous posts were re-added. John A has been here much longer than I (partly as an unregistered guest) as have some others. I may be wrong but I don't think this forum is as old as some others . But as they say - so what? This has been a quality forum from the get-go with many quality contributors and it would be a shame to see it deteriorate into a senseless rabble.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jimvm

Gonzales, Louisiana U.S.A.

Post Number: 14
Registered: Apr-05
Is it possible that there are not too many members with longevity on this forum because they all decided to leave?

Is it possible that their leaving coincided with the arrival of the flamers?
 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
jimvm,

yes to both.

now, people, can we please go back to the topic? i'd hate to see this thread or any other thread deleted again.
 

Gold Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 1025
Registered: Oct-04
All: I think ddog (thread originator) got his studio 40s, then a fine, cold beer, and has been vegging out, listening peacefully ever since.
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