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Help with Speaker Proposals Needed

 

New member
Username: Guygadois

Post Number: 1
Registered: Apr-05
Hello all. I received two quotes for installing a speakers in my home. I look to have a 5.1 system in the family room but plan on listening to music 60% of the time and 40% of the time listening to movies/tv on the plasma. I am also having speakers and volume controls installed in the dining room and living room. Here are the two proposals. Does anyone have any opinions on which one would be better suited for me?

Proposal #1 - Klipsch Reference
- Bookshelf RB25
- Subwoof RW8
- Center RC25
- Surround rears R3650c
- Speakers in living room and dining room - CS650r
- Wire with 16 gauge wire

Proposal #2 Paradigm
- Bookshelf Studio 20
- Subwoof 2100
- Center cc450
- Surround rears AMS-100r
- Speakers in living room - CS-80r
- Dining room - CS-50r
14 gauge wiring

I would love to hear some opinions on the above.

Thank you much.

Guy
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 495
Registered: Jan-05
Go with the one that's the best $$ value and sounds the best. Only you can be the judge.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 351
Registered: Feb-04
Hmmm. Lower end of the Reference series pretty much on both sides then. If you are in Canada, you'd probably get better value with Paradigm. If you are in the USA, you'd probably get better value with Klipsch. Both they sound different. I'd be surprised if you didn't prefer the sound of one versus the other if you auditioned them. Have you?
 

New member
Username: Guygadois

Post Number: 2
Registered: Apr-05
I have owned Paradigm in the past (and Energy) and have always liked them. I have yet to hear either one of these sets primarily because I live in a rural area and it makes finding someone to have them in stock ready to listen to.

By the way I listen to primarily adult contemporary and jazz music via a Squeezebox (ripped at lossless rates).
 

Silver Member
Username: Edster922

Abubala, Ababala The Occupation

Post Number: 109
Registered: Mar-05
Personally I find Klipsch bright, so I'd take the Paradigms in a heartbeat.

Given your musical tastes though I think you'd be very happy with Ascend Acoustics' speakers, plus save a ton of money. Do a Google search for them and you'll see tons of glowing reviews by both pros and consumers. (ascendacoustics.com)
 

jimvm
Unregistered guest
I'd go with the Paradigm setup solely on the strength of the mains. The Studio 20's are amazing speakers for their size and price. But I must admit that I'm a Paradigm Studio 20 owner and do not particularly like the brightness of Klipsch speakers. Also, I think you're getting a better sub with the PW-2100. And, all things being equal, 14 ga. wire is better than 16 ga.

A suggestion -- if you go with Paradigms, you should go with the SA series in-ceiling speakers; their drivers will match up better with the Studio series mains and center (which, by the way, is CC-470, not 450).
 

Bronze Member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 71
Registered: Sep-04
I'll weigh in with edster and jimvm. I love my Studio 20's. Don't recall what Klipsch I auditioned, but IMHO the Paradigms blew them away.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
If you want a real speaker, the GMA Europa is the best you can buy for under 4k. They are time/phase aligned putting them in a class ahead of Paradigm. They also have resonance free cast marble cabinets, and pure silver internal wiring. You can go with Paradigm or Klipsch, but you wont really be hearing what the artist intended. For reviews check out audiogon and 6moons.com
 

jimvm
Unregistered guest
Maui - you need to re-read the threadstarter's question. He asked which of the two proposals he listed would be better. He did not ask for suggestions regarding other speaker setups.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
If you saw someone eating dog poo, would you just let them jimvm?
 

jimvm
Unregistered guest
Probably, if they looked like they were enjoying it.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Fortunately for you, I wont let that happen.
 

jimvm
Unregistered guest
I'm so lucky!

Please spare me. Like I've said before, you'd have much better success getting people to give GMA's a chance if you'd stop trashing other speakers. You may be knowledgeable about speakers but you obviously have no clue about dealing with people.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Voriand

Post Number: 14
Registered: Feb-05
I am partial to the Paradigms. I too feel the klipsch are very bright.

Focal JMLabs and Paradigm are my favorite companies for speakers.
 

jimvm
Unregistered guest
Guy - I apologize for digressing; I did not intend to take your thread in a different direction.
 

schouse13
Unregistered guest
I have the Klipsch RB 25 system which is very similar to what you are looking at. I have been very pleased with the system thus far. The horn loaded tweeters are crystal clear and sound even better at higher volumes. These speakers are very efficient and need little power to push because of the horns. As for being too bright, it all depends on your receiver. I chose a Marantz receiver and it sounds very nice. I am not familiar with Paradigm, but I understand it too is a very good speaker. Good luck in whatever you choose.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 354
Registered: Feb-04
Listen to them forr yourself before accepting from others that Klipsch are too bright. To each his own. I don't know the Reference series but some people say the same about the Heritage series and I love them...

(I've already said they sound different! :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 355
Registered: Feb-04
As for the sub, get a Hsu or SVS instead for a better sub for less cash. There's no need to timbre match it as you do with the other speakers.
 

New member
Username: Nossus

CT

Post Number: 7
Registered: Nov-04
What amp/receiver do you plan on using? Often, as in schouse13's case, a certain speaker matches well with a receiver. The warm sound of a Marantz receiver, for example, pairs better with the bright sound of Klipsch speakers than a Yamaha receiver would.

I agree with others, that, if possible, you get a pair in your living room or at least visit a store for a listen to decide for yourself. If possible, bring your receiver with you to the store if they don't carry the make/model.
 

New member
Username: Max190

Maryland Heights, Missouri US

Post Number: 7
Registered: Apr-05
Guy,

Only you can decide which are better suited to your needs.
I have one question though, why are you running 16 ga for #1, and 14ga for #2?

 

Bronze Member
Username: Divin11112000

Michigan

Post Number: 28
Registered: Dec-04
If you like the forward sound (picture being in the rain with the wind blowing in your face) you'll probably like the Klipsch. I have the Rf35's and love them. I thought the rf25's didn't have enough bass. Not sure how they compare to the RB25's.
Although best bet would be to listen for yourself, everyone has different tastes.
 

New member
Username: Guygadois

Post Number: 3
Registered: Apr-05
Thanks to all for your responses - well almost all :-)

Receiver:
Proposal #1 has spec'd out a Harmon Kardon AVR335 while #2 has a Denon AVR 2805. Note that Proposal #1 seems to be much more reasonable in price than #2.

I also considered swapping out the AMS-100r for the SA10r but not sure if it is worth the extra $200. How much are the rear speakers used when listening to audio? How about movies? I guess it depends on what you are listening too and your settings but I am just not sure if it is worth the extra money. Input?

As for wiring, I have decided to do that part myself since all the walls are open now and it should be easy. I can either do 14 or 16 guage. Any reason why I need to go to 14? The max distance to my dining room and living room speakers is 60 feet (they are the lowest quality paradigm in ceiling).

Guy
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 371
Registered: Feb-04
As for wiring... Any reason why I need to go to 14?

Absolutely... because your wall are open! This is your one chance to get it right easily! :-)

Get some no-name 14 or even 12 AWG wire from a discount electronics parts store and use that. I suppose I should also tell you that wire you run through walls should be rated for in-wall use for fire codes.
 

New member
Username: Mauimusicman

Post Number: 1
Registered: Apr-05
Since we are talking lower end speakers here, this should suffice.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=products&content_id=2&pagestring=Speaker& product_id=17

M.Musicman Ph.D. Musicology (Prince Style)


 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 373
Registered: Feb-04
Guy,

Don't listen to (real or imposter?) maui. You don't need to spend $300 to wire your ceiling speakers! I was talking about a 100-foot $25 spool of 12 AWG!
 

New member
Username: Mauimusicman

Post Number: 2
Registered: Apr-05
Peter, just because you are unable to hear the differences between regular 12 gauge wire and something as fine as Cardas doesnt mean Guy is afflicted with the same disability.

M.Musicman Ph.D. Musicology (Prince Style)
 

New member
Username: Guygadois

Post Number: 4
Registered: Apr-05
thank Peter for keeping the discussion focused. I was looking at 14 gauge 500 foot spool at home depot for $79.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 171
Registered: Jan-05
For high end audio applications, some speaker makers state an impedance of 0.1 ohm for the speaker wire or less. To the best of my knowledge that is about 20 feet worth of 14 gauge wiring. So for any length 20 feet and under, 14 gauge will definately suffice and give high quality sound. You could probably even double the length without noting a real difference, but YMMV. As for the 60 foot run, again, you may note a difference with 12 gauge, you may not.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 172
Registered: Jan-05
I should probably reword that to say 20 feet of 14 gauge or less with probably suffice, not definately. Some people here have expensive taste after all.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 89
Registered: Feb-05
Actually, Stealth the equalivalent DCR for 14AWG is about 2Ohms per thousand feet so the actual resistance for 20' of 14AWG would be approximately .04 Ohms. The home depot zipcord is a good buy, but you might also want to check Lowes if you have one in your area. The Lowes in my area has a 250' spool of 12AWG for $50!-a very good buy. Forget about the Cardas high end snake-oil BS, you won't be needing that. From what I saw it has a higher capicitance than zipcord anyway. E.Ramsey
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 174
Registered: Jan-05
Out of curiousity what is your source for that Eric?

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/speakercablere viewsfaceoff6.php

In this test not even the 10 AWG cables reach a DCR of 2 milliohms.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 90
Registered: Feb-05
Stealth I said 2 Ohms per 1000', not 2milliOhms. i believe this figure was taken from an article on the AWG table. If you do the simple math 2/1000'=.002*20'=.04Ohms E.Ramsey
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 175
Registered: Jan-05
Let me clarify myself, 2 milliohms per foot, which is 2 ohms per 1000'.

Also, on the same article, the Axiom 12AWG wire has a resistance of 3.34 milliohms per foot, for reference. To get 0.1 ohms with that cable you would need ~30 feet.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/speakercablere viewsfaceoff.php
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 91
Registered: Feb-05
Also Stealth this table is based on resistance per foot. I am talking about 1000 feet of wire. E.Ramsey
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 176
Registered: Jan-05
1000 ft * 3.34 milliohms/ft = 3.34ohms?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 92
Registered: Feb-05
That's correct Stealth perhaps the 2 Ohm figure from the 14AWG is a little lowballed. E.Ramsey
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 177
Registered: Jan-05
If youre interested, the 20 foot thing came from the Roger Russell site where he states that he suggests wire be no more than 5% of the speakers impedance and at 2 ohms (5% of which being 0.1 ohms) he listed the 20 feet.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 378
Registered: Feb-04
The tolerable resistance of the wire depends on the resistance of the speaker. An 8-ohms load is less sensitive than a 4-ohm load (percentage-wise).

For what it's worth, Roger Russell advocates keeping it under 5% of the speaker load, and recommends a maximum of 50 feet for 16 AWG assuming an 8-ohm load. Note that most 8-ohm speakers dip lower at certain frequencies, and note that you probably won't be able to tell the difference using background music on ceiling speakers (so don't worry too much about it).

(Eric, 2 milliohms per foot adds up to 2 ohms per 1000 feet; aren't both of you saying the same thing?)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 93
Registered: Feb-05
That sounds reasonable Stealth, I would trust Mr. Russell. E.Ramsey
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 94
Registered: Feb-05
Yes it would appear that way Peter. Let's not inject the speaker into the equation though, let's keep it to just purely wire resistance.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 95
Registered: Feb-05
The lesson learned: Any reasonable length of speaker wire be no smaller than 16AWG Not to excede 1000' is inconsequential, from a resistance standpoint. E.Ramsey
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 178
Registered: Jan-05
Its that dip in the speakers impedance which is why some manufacturers just say to keep wire resistance to 0.1 ohm (B&W for example). I believe specifically some Klipsch speakers are known for dipping into the 2 or 3 ohm range at some points. So if Guy has a run of over 20 feet in his main system, it "could" alter the response of his system slightly if he used 14 gauge wire. If he used 16 gauge wiring he would probably not want runs over 12 feet for his main system.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 380
Registered: Feb-04
Stealth, yes, I've heard the flagship of the Reference series, the RF7, dips to 3 ohms.

Remember guys, this wire is for ceiling speakers. But yeah, with that sort of bulk buy I'd get 12 AWG for just a bit more. (My 100-feet spools of 12 AWG cost around C$25, or US$20. At that price, I don't go without it.)
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 179
Registered: Jan-05
Either way, its food for thought. I thought he was going to wire the main system with 16 or 14 gauge stuff too though. Ohh well.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 381
Registered: Feb-04
You're right. But he's looking at 14 AWG, which is not too bad. A 500-foot spool may be overkill! :-)
I'd instead go for 250 feet of 12 AWG for the same price if they had something like that instead. Can't go wrong with 12 AWG! :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 180
Registered: Jan-05
It has no WAF to speak of, but in wall it doesnt matter.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 97
Registered: Feb-05
You right Peter, I got a 100' spool for my surround speakers at a local electronics supply store for $30. 16AWG will work, 14 is fine but 12 is great and it's only pennies more on the dollar. E.Ramsey
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 421
Registered: Feb-05
Paul's advice (and any that is similar) is what makes sense. Any thing else is totally subjective and may or may not correspond with your lisetening skills and preferences.
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