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Looking for speakers; Max a $1000

 

New member
Username: Borismaster

Post Number: 5
Registered: Jun-04
Hi guys, great site!


I have a Yamaha Rx-v630 6.1 and will be upgrading to a rx-v2500 sometime this year. My two main speakers are some old Pioneer cs-g304a. Infinity Il25c Center and Osw8 surronds. I'm looking to buy a new set of main speakers. I use them for 60% music and 40% movies. I'm trying to decide on what to buy. I don't know many of the speaker brands you guys talk about, and thats why i'm asking for help.

I went to Ultimate Electronics and so far I
listened to the Infinity Beta 50s and like the way they sound.

Here are my options and feel free to recommend others. Thanks.

Infinity Beta 50 $ 336.00 each
Klipsch RF-35 Reference Series 368.51 each
Klipsch Synergy Series SF-3 249.88 each
Polk Audio RTi8 349.99 Each
JBL E100BE 3-Way Dual 10" 279.88
Axiom M60ti $ 900 a pair.
 

edster922
Unregistered guest
Three questions:

1. What musical genres do you usually listen to?
2. Do you plan on buying a center channel?
3. Do you plan on buying a powered sub?
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Green Mountain Europa's. Nothing better at twice the price. $1K list......but sound as good as most $3-4K speakers. Give em a listen.....you'll be amazed.
http://greenmountainaudio.com/
 

New member
Username: Borismaster

Post Number: 6
Registered: Jun-04
Hey Edster. Thank's for your reply.



1.I listen to a lot of electronic music, but just about everything else. Diana Krall, Norah Jones, Bob Marley, etc.

2. I would think of buying a center channel probably after I get my amp. I'm pretty happy with my Infinity IL25c Cennter channel.

3. I do plan on buying a subwoofer. Was thinking about the Infinity Ps-12 300 watts for $ 325.00
or Infinity sw-12 500 watts for $594.00.
But i'm open to suggestions. Thanks.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Agimat

Post Number: 80
Registered: Aug-04
Try the Audio Note AX-Two for $550 but sometimes they are very hard to find.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

Post Number: 139
Registered: Feb-05
hmmm....

I would say anything by ascend acoustics. excellent speakers for the music you specified, but will need a sub.
 

edster922
Unregistered guest
For that kind of music, the Ascend 340s would be ideal at $560 a pair shipped, or the smaller 170s for $340 a pair shipped. The 340s have a wider dispersion tweeter and an extra midrange driver and fill up large rooms better, the 170s would be fine for smaller or medium sized rooms.

If your subwoofer budget goes up to $600 I'd look at a specialized subwoofer brand like Hsu, SVS, or Velodyne first; Hsu and SVS are internet-direct like Ascend and widely regarded as also offering superior value for the money compared to retail subs or subs made by speaker manufacturers.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 66
Registered: Feb-05
Paradigm also makes "Perfect Vision" and "Stereophile" recommended subs with the PDR12, PW2100, and the Servo 15. I own the PW2100 and it is awesome.
 

New member
Username: Borismaster

Post Number: 7
Registered: Jun-04
Thanks for all the replies.

Question: Do the ascend speakers pair up nicely with a yamaha receiver?


I've read a lot of the reviews and many people are impressed by the ascends. I'm thinking about giving them a try.

My room now is 13 X 14 so the 170's should be fine. But I would just like to by speakers and keep them for a long time, so I don't know if just to get the 370's.

Thanks.

 

edster922
Unregistered guest
The Yamaha receivers are often said to be bright, so they'd go well with the Ascends which are usually described as either warm or neutral.

What you don't want to do is pair a bright receiver with a bright speaker like a Klipsch.

> But I would just like to by speakers and keep them for a long time, so I don't know if just to get the 370's.

I'm assuming you meant the "170s?" You can always move them to surround duty later on if you decide to upgrade your front speakers. A bit of overkill IMO because they're so good, but plenty of people buy them as surrounds esp. if they listen to SACDs or DVD-As.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 406
Registered: Jan-05
Hmmmmmm.......If you're looking for 'big sounding' speakers that will last for a very long time, find and listen to the Cerwin Vega CLSC-215s.

It will make the entire stock at Ultimate Electronic sound 'dainty' by comparison. I know because I've recently shopped Ultimate Electrons........My favorite retail store, but terrible speaker selection.
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=2620486/

at $750-850/pair, these are a steal and will blow away all of the botique small speakers. If I were to buy new speakers today, these would be the first that I will seek out to 'size them up'.

These arent designed for classical music or jazz, but if you want to have a home theater that "feels" like being at the real thing, nothing else comes close at this price level to the massive soundstage they create. Next to these......everything else is small potatos.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 167
Registered: Feb-05
In the words of Archie Bell and the Drells, "Here we go again, ya'll" (Do the Choo Choo). The only intelligent way to buy speakers is to personally audition them. I emphasize the word intelligent.
 

New member
Username: Borismaster

Post Number: 8
Registered: Jun-04
I am asking for suggestions on different speakers in that price range so I can have an Idea on what's available.

"Here we go again"? No!!! There you go again. It's morons like you that ruin the post.

Who the heck told you that i'm not going to audition the speakers? How about you "Do the Choo Choo" out of this post and stop being an assumption queen!! Smart aleck.

 

edster922
Unregistered guest
Boris,

couldn't have said it better myself. Woo-hoo!
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 170
Registered: Feb-05
In my experience, it's usually the fool whose only response is to resort to name calling. Thanks for identifying yourself.
 

New member
Username: Borismaster

Post Number: 9
Registered: Jun-04
Dale,

All you had to do was say which speakers you like in that price range and that was it, like everyone else did. I called you a moron and I identified myself as a fool. Lets just leave it there.

If anyone else has a speaker in that price range that they recommend, please mention it.

Thanks
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 192
Registered: Feb-05
OK fine. Now that everyone has given his or her opinion, are you really that much closer to speaker purchase? Be honest. And if so, what was said that convinced you? The fact that "everyone else did" should make you more interested in listening for your self wouldn't you say? Would it really have made any difference if I had told you that I either love or hate Acme speakers? There are many things in life that are black and white. I know that a Corvette engine has more horsepower than that of a Nova. But speaker purchase is not one of them. If you ever spend big bucks based on a recommendation, get the spaekers home and hate them, you'll appreciate my viewpoint. May be you will be lucky and avoid such a scenario.
 

New member
Username: Borismaster

Post Number: 10
Registered: Jun-04
I'm really considering getting the ascends cmt 370 mains. I work at night time and have spent the last couple of nights reading so many great reviews about them. I personally like to hear speakers before I buy them but don't have that choice with the ascends. I'm going to order them and if I don't like them i'll send them back. I don't think so many people can be wrong.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jim_mcbob

Post Number: 48
Registered: Nov-04
Before you get the Ascends, go audition as many other speakers as possible in-store. This way, at least you'll have a general sense of what you like and do not like.

On the subject of direct-merchant speakers, I see no particular advantage in buying speakers that one auditions in a store over speakers one auditions at home. There are benefits to both: Store auditions allow you to do a/b comparisons--but not in your particular listening environment, and not with your equipment. The opposite is true at home: best conditions, but no a/b comparisons.

My take: all else being equal, if you get the Ascends and like the way they sound in your home, being driven by your rig, then that's the way to go. If you don't like them, the expense of shipping is a relatively small cost to pay for something that, presumably, you'll own for many years.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Elite

Post Number: 80
Registered: May-04
boston acoustic
other than that speakers for under a thousand stink
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 107
Registered: Jun-04
Another at-home-demo option is the Ohm Microwalsh Tall. A very different, but time-tested design with a 4-month trial period. Real giant killers. Check out reviews at 6moons.com.

The Ascends do look pretty good - worth a try.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 226
Registered: Feb-05
Borismaster, Joe gave you his opinion. What are you going to do with it? His opinion is just as worthy of consideration as those others you seem to prefer. That's the problem I have attempted to point out. It's your money. Spend it in good health.
 

edster922
Unregistered guest
Boris,

Yeah, the massive amount of glowing reviews on the Ascends (more on the smaller 170s because they've been around a lot longer and caused much more of a splash when they came out due to their unbelievably low pricepoint) were also very persuasive for me too.

When I was going through the buying process I also Googled up not only the Internet-only speakers but also the retail speakers in the same price range I had already listened to, and I have to say that Ascend seems to have the longest paper trail of something like 98% positive reviews (both by professionals and consumers) of anyone I ever saw. What's more, the 2% unfavorable reviews were more like "well this is a little overrated" rather than "God this is terrible"---I found that quite convincing.

Also the other thing I did was to take the Ascends into a small local audio shop where I had bought my Marantz receiver a few months before and compare them to their stock of PSBs, Triangles, Klipsch and Monitor Audio. I was happy to discover that even though the $560 CMT-340s were not the absolute best in the store, nothing under about $1200-1300 could really beat them, something that even the sales guy had to grudgingly admit when the dust settled...this same guy had been promising me that I'd end up shipping them back after I a/b'ed them with his stock when I first mentioned the subject of Internet speakers! Apparently this had happened to one of his customers who came in with some Axioms.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 419
Registered: Jan-05
Jim-bob,

I understand where you're coming from but I'll have to disagree. While it's true that when you buy from a store that you can do 'side by side' comparisons, but you're wrong because you can also home demo.

Sure, in most cases you pay for the speakers first before you take them home for a 'home demo', but how is that different from buying internet brands 'up-front' for the option to home demo??

Any store I've bought from had a full refund policy if you werent totally satisfied with your purchase. I've returned both receivers and speakers in the past, and it was as simple as swiping a CC for a credit transaction.

I agree with you point that if you are going to buy internet speakers, that at the very least you should listen to several in person beforehand so at least you'll have a 'vague' point of reference.

Any way you slice or dice it though, you're at a disadvantage if you limit yourself to 'only' home demo without the opportunity to do side by side comparisons. If you buy retail from a lineup.......you do both!!

You're assuming that buying retail means you're stuck with the product after bringing it home, and that is "NOT" true.

For those who continually cry out 'restocking fee' as if the sky would fall......phooey.

I've never been charged a restocking fee...nor will I ever. If there is a restocking fee, any smart shopper can easily have it waived up-front of any big ticket purchase. All it would take is a managers John Hanckock on the bill of sale.

People need to remember that as a customer, they are boss, and the salesmen/managers will do nearly anything to make the sale 'today'.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 420
Registered: Jan-05
All is negotiable.....

nothing is set in stone.........price, terms, nothing.
 

New member
Username: Manwithfinger

Post Number: 5
Registered: May-04
May be you'd be interested in an audiophile quality set of speakers that hankle plenty of power and can be tri-amped. YOu would not be disappointed.
 

New member
Username: Manwithfinger

Post Number: 6
Registered: May-04
May be you'd be interested in an audiophile quality set of speakers that hankle plenty of power and can be tri-amped. YOu would not be disappointed.Paradigm Studio 100 in the walnut wood veneer.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jim_mcbob

Post Number: 50
Registered: Nov-04
Paul: Where I live (NYC area), stores regularly decline the privilege of a home demo. Merchants most often only issue in-store credit for non-defective returned merchandise. I have tried to negotiate on this, to little avail. Can't say that I entirely blame the merchants, either. The margins on speaker pairs at my price point--decidedly NOT big ticket; easily under the $1k threshold being discussed in this thread--are relatively slim; returned merch has to be sold as demo or open-box, thereby reducing the margin even further.

Trust me, I know how to petition for my rights as a customer, but the merchants carrying better-quality audio gear are pretty resolutely against in-home demos, precisely because they're tired of losing business to direct merchants--and this news comes to me from a store manager at my local Harvey Electronics (who also happens to be the parent of one of my son's schoolyard chums). Edster's solution, to demo direct market speakers side-by-side at your local audio store is a good idea. But it still doesn't tell you much about how the speakers will sound once you get them home and break them in. Thirty days from the Ascends and Axioms of the world (or a whopping 120 from Ohm) should give ample time for a listener to determine whether one likes the speakers, and if they live up to the hype. In this case, word of mouth (found hereabouts, at Audio Asylum, and elsewhere), even from total strangers, should be somewhat helpful as an additional point of reference.

In-store demos can tell you a lot. You might find what you want there--and most people do. But the exlplosion of reputable Internet-based direct merchants have put more choices at the customer's discretion.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 108
Registered: Jun-04
I remember buying a pair of Kefs from Harveys - they sounded better at home! I've had the same experiences here in NYC concerning returns from all of the stores.

I actually bought a pair of Ohm Microwalsh Shorts before I exchanged them for the Talls. It was nice to have that option abailable to me to try the Shorts out first. I'm very glad I took the chance with a direct merchant.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Borismaster,
If you do not listen to the Green Mountain Europa's.....you simply over-paid. Simple as that guy. Check out http://www.audiogon.com
click on "discussion forums" Type in "Europa" in the search window. Take 30 minutes or so to read the comments on these amazing speakers. See what they are being compared to......and what the competition costs.....you will have to do a double take. It's your money..... but all of the speakers afore mentioned would lose a double blind test to the Europa's hands down.
 

Anonymous
 
Funny I have only seen 2 people recommending Green Mountain
 

Bronze Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 82
Registered: Feb-05
There is a pair of the Green Mountains Europa's for sale on Audiogon. He states that he needs smaller monitors.
 

edster922
Unregistered guest
Hmm, are these Europas Internet direct? I wouldn't mind giving them a listen myself, out of curiousity.

The 88db sensitivity scares me but the 45lb weight for such a small speaker is impressive.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 439
Registered: Jan-05
........adding one more reason to the list of why 'not' to live in NYC.

#79.... Merchants do not allow returns.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 83
Registered: Feb-05
The Green Mountains on Audiogon are used but stated to be in great shape. Lots of folks have built great systems from Audiogon. I believe they were in the classifieds under monitors.
 

Anonymous
 
"It's your money..... but all of the speakers afore mentioned would lose a double blind test to the Europa's hands down. "

I thought you didnt believe in double blind testing. Or is that just in relation to speaker wire?
 

edster922
Unregistered guest
OUCH!!!

: )
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 126
Registered: Jan-05
GMA's speakers might be good, but they look like they badly need a new webmaster IMO...
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Stealth, my understanding is the webmaster recently had surgery and is in the hospital recovering.
Edster....yes internet direct only. GMA is not making a fortune on these speakers. If they were at retailers they would probably sell for 40 to 50 % more.
Annomous......only two people recommending them? Did you go to Audiogon and read the owners posts?
Just because only a handfull here are familiar with them, does not mean they are not a good speaker, does it? Have you heard them?
6 moons.com recently tested the flagship GMA speaker and next month will be reviewing the Callisto, the model above the Europa. You might wanna read one or both reviews. http://www.6moons.com
 

edster922
Unregistered guest
Just looked at their quixotic website...YIKES!

With prices like those, the GMAs darn *better* be sensational!
 

edster922
Unregistered guest
Just looked at their quixotic website...YIKES!

With prices like those, the GMAs darn *better* be sensational!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jim_mcbob

Post Number: 56
Registered: Nov-04
Paul: only a rube would bother to catalog reasons not to live in NYC. :-)

(If you lived here, I could show you more constructive uses for your time.)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Blasterman

Post Number: 12
Registered: Mar-05
I'm reading these posts and only getting steadily annoyed.

First, it's obvious from Borismaster's posts he want's speakers with some 'nuts' to them, which is a real shame because I have no idea why somebody would be referring him to Green Mountain. I really don't care what the reviews say about GMA because I've heard them and concluded they were simply another monitor type 2-way with no real distinguishing character. 2-ways in that category are a dime a dozen and fit the profile for somebody who prefers to sit and listen to 'dry' sounding music with their head in a vise. If that's what Borismaster wants, by all means go with GMA but at least consider B&W which at least as some 'sweetness' built into their tweeters.

The Ascends are nice speakers. Just a hair forward, but very well balanced and more refined than the overly complex Axiom's.

My recommendation would be a choice between the Ascends, or Athena FS2's which would be more dynamic and room filling, but a bit more laid back.



 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 105
Registered: Feb-05
God, I hope nobody thinks that I'm recommending GMA's. I've never heard them and don't care if I ever do. I know that Maui swears by them so I was informing him that there is a pair on Audiogon in case he wanted another pair. I'm quite happy with Paradigm. My Monitor 5's have enough oomph to rock out and enough subtlety for my jazz and classical. An ideal combo for the money I paid them. Ofcourse the Hafler 9505 power amp (250 watts per channel) helps as well. B&W are great speakers as well. I compared the 600 series to Paradigms Monitor series and preferred the Monitor's. It was really a toss up though because the B&W's sounded as good they were just different. I will likely trade up in the next year and when I do the 2 most prominent contenders will be the Paradigm Studio's and the B&W 700 series. I would like to be able to afford better but realistically probably not.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Anusmous....Screw yu. Anyone who thinks that spekar wire makes no diffrence is jsut plain ignorant.

Arthur, you should listen to the Europa, you will ttrash your Paradigms in a minute.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 233
Registered: Nov-04
looks like either maui is going senile or he doesn't know how to type anymore. just one question maui, how to you cast marble? i would think that all rocks have different chemical composition but i would also think temperature, rate of cooling and pressure makes a large contribution to how a rock or stone is formed. so how does GMA do it since their rather sparse website doesn't do much more than rant and rave about their own speakers from god knows who. it would be pretty neat to have marble speakers but what are you really paying for with the $1000 price tag? speakers or marble accent peices that happen to have speaker cones in them?
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Im afraid thats a trade secrett Christopher. If I told you I would have to kill you. I can tell you that most of those reviews are done by heads of the industry. You are definately getting wha t you pay for. I challenge you to test one for yourself and find out. If you dont like it, you can always return it.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 128
Registered: Jan-05
This perhaps may be what you are looking for. It probably does provide a pretty solid cabinet at least.

http://users.lmi.net/~drewid/Cast_Marble.htm
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 106
Registered: Feb-05
I wasn't putting down the GMA's I just haven't heard them. So unless a friend of mine buys them or I hear them at a store which apparently isn't likely, I won't hear them. And frankly that's ok with me. I have frieds who own 2 audio stores. Jim who own's Northwest Audio Labs in Corvallis, and Geoff and Tim who own Bradford's in Eugene, Or. Between them they sell B&W, Paradigm, Magnepan, Vandersteen, Boston Acoustics, and Epos. My favorite audio store in Portland sells Sonus Faber, Focal, Spendor, Meadowlark, ProAc, and Naim to just name a few. Point being I have easy access to just about any listening experience I want. I might miss GMA, Axiom, Aperion, and Ascend and that's ok with me. Again, I'm not putting them down because I am sure that especially the Ascends and perhaps the GMA's are fine speakers. I just simply have too many choices to buy sound unheard.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stone

West CoastUSA

Post Number: 159
Registered: Dec-03
I would consider getting GMA's if A. They had a more affordable suround sound set up and B. Were pleasing to my eye and could pass the WAF test.
When my next upgrade takes place I will give serious consideration to Meadowlarks. Similar design and they would look much better in my living enviorment.
Happy now with Ohm Micro Talls since they get 70/30 Home theater use. Their design is very good for movies.
By they way Borismaster, they are within your 1000.00 budget.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 234
Registered: Nov-04
so its more of a really strong heavy resin than stone? i guess i still dont see the point over using mdf or solid wood. would it have better resistance to resonance than other traditional materials?
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 129
Registered: Jan-05
Its denser than mdf or wood is by several times, although the actual real world benefits I am not sure of.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 109
Registered: Jun-04
For me, the thing with the GMAs is not so much the cabinet, but the 1st order xover and time coherent design. That's what seperates them from the masses.

Yes, the first quote on the Europa site is by Joe Furla, a well respected engineer, here in NYC. As I've said before, he used to deal with Proacs, and I almost bought a pair from him a few years ago. Unkowingly, we both got into time coherent speakers since then.

Once again, I agree with Stone concerning the Ohm Talls. I'm also a fan of the Meadowlarks, they share some sonic qualities with the Ohms.
 

high def junkie
Unregistered guest
Boris, i was just in the same situation too. i went to audiovisions where i live and they had the yamaha amp that my friend had got. the rxv2400. i had them hook up the klipsch and for music, they are more like you are at a rock concert sitting front row. they are not "bright" i dont think. For me, movies and rock and country i like them. I then had him hook up the B&W's. they were bright. they are like sitting in a sound studio. IMO they are super clear. a little more expensive also. If you listen to things like norah jones and that I would go with b&w. if you like the at the concert not as clear but a little more rough go with klipsch. I am going to buy a klipsch surround in a month or two bc i just bought a mitsubishi wd52725 tv and need to pay for it first. But the klipsch sounded great with the yamaha reciever.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Sam, you said " I really don't care what the reviews say about GMA because I've heard them and concluded they were simply another monitor type 2-way with no real distinguishing character. 2-ways in that category are a dime a dozen and fit the profile for somebody who prefers to sit and listen to 'dry' sounding music with their head in a vise" Nothing could be furthur from the truth. These speakers sound great in the sweet spot, off axis 45 degree's, standing, sitting or three rooms removed. Not one person who has heard these in my system has commented that they sound "dry" as you put it. Nor have they complained about head in a vice syndrom. "Real" is the most frequent comment about them. In fact, my friends are pretty much all either musicians, producers, engineers, or in the entertainment biz listening to or performing live music weekly. To a person, they say they have heard nothing come close at twice the price. I sold Hi end audio for 10 years. I know good gear. No distinguishing character? If you mean a REAL 1st order x-over 2 way with marble cabinets, excellent drivers, no resonances, hand matched to within .5db/pair, 30 years R&D for the x-over alone, Audio magic's best silver wire indistinguishable.....so be it. The tweeter in these speakers runs pretty much wide open. Think about it. Crossover at 2850hz at 6db/octave. Gotta be one REALLY good tweeter. I've played them so loud things rattled off my walls. Walk up to the speaker....put a hand on the cabinet...NOTHING. Not any vibration. THATS why they use Marble. Try that with Paradigm or the others mentioned. You WILL feel the cabinet resonate. Please don't compare the Europa's to Paradigm, Ascend, or Athena. Not remotely in the same league. Name me a few of those so called "dime a dozen" speakers that are made like the GMA's please? There are one or two. Harmonic Precision's Caravelle is one. Cost's over $4K with the stands. For $1K, the Europa has no peer in loudspeakers today. Simple as that guys and girls.
Again, it's YOUR money. Spend it anyway you like. However, if your too stupborn to so much as LISTEN to them, well.....you deserve what you end up with.
Recent thread on Audiogon:
Green Mountain Audio Europa's Hype or Reality?
So I read all the threads and bought a pair. Was very impressed with the soundstage, balance and the bass of all things. Still I was so disappointed that I was ready to sell them out of desperation. The high end lacked clarity and I thought it was my being used to hard titanium tweeters. They were tough to live with and I couldn't stand it everytime there were cymbals I was heartbroken. Everything else about them was awesome but that high end ruined it all.

Well.

Now it's been about a month since that all went away. The high end is crisp and extended and transparent. Just as good as any tweeter. So what happened and why am I writing. If you get a pair of Europa's or anything GMA and don't opt for the factory burn in be advised you need to put the 100 to 200 hours on them before you can truly know whether you like them or not. The difference is enormous moreso than any other system I've owned.

They are such a pleasure to listen to now that they are broken in IMHO opinion because everything is right. They give you the recording and don't get in the way. There is no compromise or anything lacking. The music is true and stable from low to high volume. Within seconds of listening even lead eared friends comment on how real the vocal sound.

So for me GMA not only lives up to but exceeds the hype here on Audiogon. There is no way to dislike these speakers and once I add a sub I can only imagine.
Soundit
Finally, from Sounstage.com looking back on this years CES show:
The true music lovers

I would like to end with a comment about three particular gentlemen whom I hold in very high regard. These gentlemen have companies that manufacture some of the finest components in the business, yet that is not what makes them so special. What makes these men so special is how deep their love of music (over equipment) is. When you walk into one of their rooms, you are much more apt to learn about a newly recorded concerto or a great, old jazz performance than you are to be bombarded with sales pitches.

Keith Herron of Herron Audio always has one of the best-sounding rooms. He also has introduced me to some really great choral music and rekindled my interest in Louis Armstrong. Tom Fletcher of Nottingham Analogue couldn't wait to play me one of Vladimir Horowitz's final recordings on vinyl. He was grinning ear to ear as he spoke of the octogenarian's performance. I had a great discussion with Roy Johnson of Green Mountain Audio about a Chick Corea recording he was playing. I shared a story of an encounter I had with that particular musician while in college and on we went. I always love hearing his newest speaker, but I also look forward to talking music with the man behind it.

Each of these men always produces quality sound in his room, perhaps because each knows music and puts it before the equipment. Perhaps they're all onto something.

...Bill Brooks
billb@soundstage.com



03-25-05
Believe who you chose.

 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
To whomever is posting using my name, it's rather childish. At least learn to spell if your going to post using my name, please? "secrett" "ttrash" ?????????? Like I said.......childish. Perhaps you should spend more time in school and less time here 'till you learn how to spell properly.
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 111
Registered: Feb-05
It would be nice if you could enjoy or celebrate your speakers without putting down others. Paradigm is a respected name in the industry and many people including me enjoy their products. Ascend has received more critical aclaim than GMA's so they must also be doing something right. Like I've said I believe that the GMA's are great speakers but I will probably never know because all I have is choice. There are a lot of great speakers and I can hear most of them anytime I want. So someday when GMA gets serious and puts speakers where I can hear them or builds a website that's navigable, perhaps I will take them seriously. I know, my loss.
Meanwhile I'm enjoying my Paradigms, poor me.
 

Anonymous
 
Maui,

Can the GMA be driven with say a 20-30 watt push/pull? What is your experience, if any, with the Europa and tube amps?
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
GMA does great with tube amps!!! I would also highly reccomend using the most expensive Audioquest speaker wire you can afford. The only thing better than that setup is the Sony Platinum DVD Dream System. If only I could get my hands on one of those....

I have a friend who plays ukulele with me in the main lobby of the Best Western in Lahaina and he agrees with me that the GMAs rock! He would know too because he is a musician just like me!
 

Anonymous
 
mauimusicman

Are these just for music or home theater also?

Do they make a center channel and rears?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 72
Registered: Dec-04
mauimusicman,
It might be an idea if you were to register. It does appear that someone else is using your name to post - either that or you have a very weird dual personality! :-)

 

Bronze Member
Username: Divin11112000

Michigan

Post Number: 27
Registered: Dec-04
Borismaster
I went with the Klipsch Rf35's, and i'm listening to them with a pioneer vsx-d811s reciever (not sure if thats considered a bright reciever or not).
I think that they have a forward sound, which I personally like. A lot of people say they don't like them because they are too "bright". I don't know if maybe i don't notice this, but i don't crank the volume that much because i'm in a small living room 15x15.
I actually upgraded from the same fronts you used cg304's. There is definately a difference of how forward the music is.
I listen to mostly rock, and i'm about 60%ht, 40%music.

I compared the speakers to B&W 604's (close to the same price) and I prefered the Klipsch.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Diablo.......some kid, i'm sure. Arthur....I never put down or degraded Paradigm speakers. I said they are not in the same league....which they are not. Paradigm's are fine. GMA does have center and surround speakers, but they are not cheap. Basically, it boils down to phase issues. Any speaker with a 12db/octave or higher x-over is going to have phase issues. By phase issues i'm reffering to smearing of the mid/high frequencies in the time domain compared to the low frequencies. Paradigm uses a 12db/octave x-over meaning the speakers are going to be 180 degree's out of phase between woofer and tweeter. They try to make up for those phase errors via the crossover, but you simply cannot go back in time. The only thing you can do is go forward. Most speaker manufacturers, because of the degree of difficulty of time domain physics, do just that. So, the woofer and tweeter start at the same time, but they do not STOP at the same time. They are one full cycle apart. This smears the musical intent of the recording to some extent. I hear a lot of people complaining about the recording quality: "It's harsh....or too bright" It's not the recording. It's generally the crossover. Try listeing to your horrible sounding recordings on some headphones, electrostats if possible. You'll find them much more listenable because they have relatively no phase shift. Is this being nit-picky as some here claim? Hardly. Lets examine it a bit more in depth.
Every driver has mass, suspension, and damping (by the suspension's resistive losses and the amplifier). Thus it is a "damped harmonic oscillator"- in a Physics 101 book.
A harmonic oscillator has a 1/4 wave's worth of time-delay down at its low-frequecy resonance, compared to the midrange tones. For a sealed woofer with -3dB at 40Hz (close-mic'd measured), that means 1/4 of 1/40th of a second, or 1/160th of a second=6.25 milliseconds. That doesn't sound like much time delay, but it is ~7 feet of distance, at the speed of sound. Put two microphones on a piano- one for the left hand, one for the right; both equally close to the strings/soundboard. Now, impose 6.25 milliseconds delay between those two mics- that is, between the lowest notes and the mid-scale notes.
Imagine what the piano would sound like if the right hand tones got to the microphone seven feet sooner than the left hand's lowest notes.
Timbre is a multidimensionally perceived tonal attribute that differentiates tones of identical pitch, loudness, and duration. It is influenced by steady state waveforms, transient characteristics (the onset especially), and slower spectral changes over a series of tones. For example, a piano and a trumpet can play the note A440 of identical frequency, sound pressure, and duration but have clearly audible differences. Although it was once believed that the human ear is "phase deaf," in accordance to Ohm's acoustical law , more recent research has shown that relative phase has subtle effects on timbre, in particular when changing phase relationships occur within a continuously sounding tone.

For timbral sensation, the onset portion and other transient characteristics within the dynamic waveform are especially important. The onset is the opening portion of a tone, where the energy supplied exceeds the energy expended. Tones produced by continuous excitation of the vibrating source, such as a blown reed or mouthpiece, or a bowed string, have an onset that is followed by a steady state section, where the energy supplied and expended are in balance for the most part. Tones produced by impulsive excitation of the vibrating source, such as plucked string and piano tones, do not possess a steady state. The offset or decay, where the energy expended exceeds any supplied, concludes a tone.

A steady-state vibration pattern from a vibrating system cannot be attained instantaneously. Onset times of various instruments vary. The trumpet has an onset time of about 20 msec while the flute requires 200 to 300 msec. Even this short (in absolute terms) onset time of 300 msec is significant in perception of timbre. This significance was demonstrated in an experiment where the initial portion of a tone was removed. It was revealed that even experienced musicians had considerable difficulty in discerning common orchestral instruments.
Hope this helps.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 236
Registered: Nov-04
ok maui, i think we see your point on the phase issue. so then what does a tight budgeted consumer do to get the best phase coherent speakers available? we all dont have $1000 plus to spend on a pair of speakers. are you perhaps suggesting that the GMAs are a progression through hifi going from "lower classed" Paradigms, to "higher classed" GMAs or electrostats?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 32
Registered: Feb-05
DCM makes good speakers for less than $1K. Visit www.DCMspeakers.com. Also JBL and entry level Klipsch available from best buy are decent as well. The Athenas are good as well. To quote one post"Boston Acoustics-other than that speakers under a thousand stink". Well that post "stinks" as it is arrogant as it is useless. Was that the "golden eared audiophile" who can hear diffrences between any speaker wires/cable? E.Ramsey AAS industrial electronics
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 123
Registered: Feb-05
So live musicians are phase aligned when unamplified and when amplified they all use GMA's or they don't sound real. I'm confused. When I saw Tomasz Stanko live a couple of weeks ago he was using JBL speakers not GMA's. I guess I didn't hear him at his best. When I see the Dave Holland Big Band in a few days I'll be sure to put in a request for GMA's. I'll have to because hundred's if not thousands of high profile musicians use good old fashioned loudspeakers in their homes and in concert. Makes me wonder which really sounds right.
 

New member
Username: Gas_wyoming

Cody, WY

Post Number: 1
Registered: Mar-05
I have read posts on many subjects on ecoustics.com for the past 4 hours. This is one of the more amusing!

Are there any Polk Audios you'd recommend to Borismaster?

I'll have to say that I was so impressed by the postings on the virtues of the Denon 3805 vs. Yammie rx-v2500, that I bought the Denon last night from ebay...great deal (A-Stock with warranty). Any opinions out there tonight?
 

Anonymous
 
Maui:

If I'm seven feet from the speakers, the low and high frequencies are not seven feet apart; I think you were assuming a much greater distance separating the listener and speakers (like, say, the distance sound travels in one hour. My speaker and I, I'm happy to say, are comfortably in the same time zone).

The 6.25 millisecond phase misalignment is, according to psychoacoustic research, of little consequence at most sound pressure levels (yes, amplitude is a dependent factor). Our inner-ear compensates for many dynamic factors (this is how we stay on our feet on a moving platform). And how does one account for the use of a subwoofer--doesn't that throw things off phase?

In short, you're getting fixated on gobblydegook, while possibly ignoring the broader issues. I wish you and GMA all the happiness in the world, but honestly, I think you overstate your case. You're never gonna convince people that what they're hearing is wrong.
 

New member
Username: Jetson89

Post Number: 3
Registered: Jan-05
I own two pairs of terrific but very different speakers and you can find either (or both) for much less than $1000.

1) Advent Walnut (vintage) floor speakers, classic 2-way, heavy walnut box. On EBay often for $200 / pair or so. Most needed their woofer foam surrounds replaced in the 90s. Doing so is easy and kits cost $30.

2) Jamo Cello 60 bookshelf speakers, 3-way. Supurb range and fairly compact. $375 / pair
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 110
Registered: Jun-04
Unfortunately, it's expensive in both materials and design to produce a time coherent speaker. Regardless of manufacturer, they start around a grand.

The time coherent concept is an important factor when designing a speaker. Music is made up of pitch, loudness and timing. Without that last ingredient, the acoustical output of your speakers will not equal its electrical input. For many many years, human beings have relied on hearing to survive. In our little hi-fi world of sound recreation, potential time delays will jumble the sound, triggering your brain to not "believe" the sound (resulting in fatigue and an inability to get "into" the music).

For the measurements crew out there, the most important spec is the step response. The only thing a speaker can actually do is compress and rarefy the air around it; that is its ONLY job. The step response measures how well a speaker can do exactly that. If the graph is a squiggly mess, then the speakers changed up the waveform - if it's a nice smooth line, then the speakers gave you exactly what it was fed from the amplifier. It's that simple!
 

New member
Username: Joshbslater

Kalamazoo, Mi. USA

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-05
I like Paradigms, the GMA website is wierd and confusing, mauimusicman should register (it'll be OK...I don't think your identity will be stolen), I agree with that Arthur Kyle guy, and as far as speakers for under $1000, Paradigm makes great speakers that offer high value (More bang for your buck). I have yet to hear a bad word about them. That's all.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 111
Registered: Jun-04
I agree that under a $1000, Paradigms are one of the best. But if you are willing to venture close to the $1000 mark (maybe even just a little above), then it's worth a try to check out some different approaches to speaker design. This is the price range when things start getting interesting!

GMA's site is kind of anoying. I also think the Ohm site is just plain old lame, but that is no reflection of how my speakers sound!
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Arthur....are you comparing concert venues to your home? C'mon, Arthur. Thats like comparing car audio to home audio. Or apples to oranges. When you listen at home, do you have 20,000 other loud, obnoxious, drunken fools there screaming? Is your listening room anywhere close to the dimensions of the concert venue? Do you sit in the ideal seating location at each and every concert? Most concert venues have horrible accoustics. Horrible. Sound systems are generally worse. Next time you go to a concert, listen to it as you would your hi-fi. You'll be amazed. 20db too loud. Distorted to the max. Bass is usually 10db up at around 100-120hz. Everything is mic'd. EQ is terrible generally. Vocals not loud enough. Bad mix. But no, the JBL monitors are far from phase coherent. I won't even go into car audio..............
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Anonymous, yes the sub alters the phase relationship of the system. Your right. Thats why I never use them. As far as the time/phase issue, the only way to be sure is to listen. It's a tough gig. 99% of speaker designers and/or manufacturers simply don't have the knowledge to design,build and implement a 1st order design properly. Thats why there are so few out there. Meadowlark, GMA, Starsound are a few that do. Since the math is so complex, most manufacturers say "You can't hear it" when, if the truth be known, any other piece of audio gear had the phase issues most multi-way speakers have, they would be considered defective. Simple as that. If people are so narrow minded that they won't so much as listen and judge for themselves, you really shouldn't consider yourselves audiophiles or music lovers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 164
Registered: Feb-05
The concert venues I usually attend are the best in the northwest such as the Silva Concert Hall at the Hult Center in Eugene, Oregon. Yes, I buy tickets early and sit in ideal seating. You must go to too many AC/DC concerts. I attend the kind of concerts that many audiophiles are trying to reproduce in their living rooms. The sound is wonderful and not too loud. I am sorry you don't have better experiences with live music. Anyway maui check this site out. How many people are interested in or are buying Paradigm, B&W, Wharfedale, and Ascend vs GMA's. We're all wrong and you are right. Then again you are always right. "you really shouldn't consider yourselves audiophiles or music lovers". I bought my first record when I 6 yrs old, my first component hifi system when I was 13 and I am now 44yrs old. That's the story of many of the posters on this site. How dare you have the gall to tell folks whether should consider themselves music lovers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 329
Registered: Feb-04
How is math with first-order filters harder than higher order filters? You lost me there.

There are two schools of thought. Some people prefer low order filters (mostly at low volumes) and other love very sharp slopes because of the separation it gives between components (you don't want the same frequencies heard from both a woofer and a mid-range at the same time). Consider Type A versus ALK extreme-slope crossovers on Klipsch Heritage speakers as an example.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 112
Registered: Jun-04
Concerning xover choice - most designers don't have the skills to pull of 1st order speaker designs. As a result many employ higher order xovers because it's easier. Also, regardless of ability, a higher order xover drastically alters the signal, and why would anyone want that to happen? If any other piece of equipment did the same thing, it would be considered broken!
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 146
Registered: Jan-05
"Anonymous, yes the sub alters the phase relationship of the system. Your right. Thats why I never use them. "

So maui, since you probably arent getting that bottom octave of music, what exactly makes you think you have a leg to stand on telling others that they arent hearing what the artist intended?

Also, out of curiousity, and since you bring up artist intent, how many recording studios use time aligned speakers versus those that dont?

"Concerning xover choice - most designers don't have the skills to pull of 1st order speaker designs. "

So why doesnt GMA just mass produce the crossovers if it would be such a lucrative market as you seem to imply? They would probably have more customers than they do now, with a guy like maui running around forums making sure no one will ever buy GMA combined with the fact that their website seems to be designed for mentally disabled people.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Cornelius.....think you and I are wasting our time here? These guys don't want to learn....they sure like to argue though.
Stealth, GMA cannot manufacture speakers fast enough as it is. Reviewers are begging for some test models, and even THOSE are all spoken for after the reviews. They are doing fine, thank you. Because your too hard-headed, stupborn or think you know as much as you need to know about audio to so much as LISTEN, doesn't mean everyone here is. Joe Ferla uses the Europa for his studio. Do a search. He's done a lot.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gma/continuum3.html
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/greenmountain_continuum2.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/frank05.htm
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 170
Registered: Feb-05
As soon as they make their precious speakers available I'll listen. Until then as long as they remain an exclusive speaker company they will continue receive the attention they currently get. Until I read your posts I'd never heard of them. Richard Vandersteen knows that if you want that concept to sell you have to put the product where the people hear and see it. If you don't you should at least hire a webmaster who can build you a decent website.
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 171
Registered: Feb-05
By the way if those GMA's were available in a store near me, next time I upgrade I would listen to them. I do not dismiss any product (besides Bose) without a listen. I believe the GMA's are a good product, but I don't know unless I listen. I can listen to Meadowklarks, Vandersteens, and Thiels by taking a drive up the street. Location, location, location.
 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
maui,

i appreciate your suggestion regarding the europas. but it doesn't make us too hard-headed or stubborn if we don't take your advice.

 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
"GMA cannot manufacture speakers fast enough as it is"

and maui, if ever we do take your advice, how can effective can GMA cope w/ the demand?
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 113
Registered: Jun-04
Wow, Maui, that's cool to hear that GMA is so busy. When I ordered my Ohms they were atleast 5 weeks back-ordered (they took off a $100 for the wait!) so I've seen the smaller companies eventually meeting demand. For me it was worth the wait!

To most everyone out there, owning a factory direct speaker does make certain conversations a little one-sided on these forums, so I can see the frustration in not being able to respond with personal experience.

I will say, however, that I got into the time coherent approach to speaker design, not because I'm a know-it-all (Maui knows a lot more about audio than I do), it's just a design that I really stand behind, one that I think more manufacturers will gravitate to (I see it happening already). So please do not confuse my passion for this design with an elist vibe, I'm not the best at explaining some of this audio stuff.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 150
Registered: Jan-05
Maui: So calling me "stupborn" is your best shot ehh? I merely asked a couple questions of you, which you obviously cannot answer. You didnt answer the question about missing the lowest octave of sound. You didnt really give Arthurs question on live performances much of an answer. You didnt even answer the question about how many recording studios use time-aligned speakers versus those who dont. You post links to favorable reviews of $10000 speakers from GMA (which damn well better be good for that price), but you yourself acknowledge on another thread that reviews are of very limited usefulness.

I have not questioned whether or not GMAs are good speakers. I have merely made observations based on what information you have provided me. You post here, offending more than a few people when doing so by saying we arent real audiophiles because we dont buy your speakers. Bad practice if you want to encourage people to buy a product. The website of the company is just plain horrid. Ive seen 14 year olds with significantly better websites. If they cant afford a better webmaster, what choice do I have but to assume they arent doing particularly well from a business standpoint? Besides, if they cant even meet demand, anyone who has taken a simple economics class can tell you they need to raise prices.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Peter, i'll answer your question. First order x-overs are no more difficult math wise than 4th order. They are the most basic of crossovers. My Europa's have, I believe two parts to the crossover. Whats difficult is the time domain math, easily the hardest math in all of physics. You see Peter, the speaker sitting over in the corner is not what your ears are hearing. The sound you hear is only the motion of the air molecules next to your ears. The sound you hear isn't over there.....it's right next to you. Now, how do you get those molecules creating sound next to your ears to be in the same time domain, phase wise as the speakers across the room? The math is quite complex just for phase errors alone. Have a look for yourself.
http://www.music.miami.edu/programs/mue/Research/dkoya/chapter_1/chapter_1.htm
The physics involved for time/phase alignment in loudspeakers is exponentially more difficult. Add to that the slope of the 1st order filter(6db/octave) and the tweeter is pretty much running wide open.
Any speaker designer can toss a couple drivers in a box, use a computer program to find crossover points, etc based on Fs, Qts etc. To do so and maintain the proper time/phase relationship of the recording with a multi-driver speaker is something very special indeed. There are no computer programs for speaker design that are time/phase accurate.
Stealth, re-read my last post. Joe Ferla, a very respected recording engineer uses Europa's. Again, do a search. He's done work for a lot of artists. I think he still engineers with Verve records. As far as "The lowest octave" goes, i'm not missing much, really. My Europa's are pretty flat down to about 46hz in my room. Open "E" on a bass guitar is 42hz, I think. So, perhaps i'm missing the DVD movie effects, but they do call them "Effects", right? To be honest, the low end from the Europa is as good, but much more musical than my old double 8" woofer ADS L-1290's, even though the ADS claimed lower bass response. Add to that the fact that all rooms have substantial problems in the lower frequencies (peaks or dips of 20db are not uncommon) and the degree of difficulty matching the subs to the room/monitors, i'll pass thank you. Been there....done that. Not for me. I choose to hear the music...not the room. Many, if not most people mistake bass for low frequency noise. This is whats referred to as a high Q situation. "Q" being the relationship between stored and dissapaited energy. The higher the Q, the boomier the bass. Again, not for me. Most people, when presented with accurate bass, complain of a lack of bass. So, before one can question the so called "lower octave" one must be certian what they are hearing is real music and not just distortion or room effects. Research the physical wavelength of a 40hz bass note, just for grins.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 154
Registered: Jan-05
Maui: You still didnt answer the question. Giving the name of a single recording engineer means nothing in the grand scheme of all the recording engineers out there.

As far as the bass is concerned, you may not care to be missing it, but you dont have a choice and are limited to having no lower bass output. If you are willing to sacrifice some organ notes and bass guitar notes, that is your choice. But dont keep harping to us about the choices weve made and continue to tell us we arent audiophiles because we didnt choose your speaker.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 76
Registered: Dec-04
I quite like the time/phase aligned theory. Human hearing is optimized for directionality at around 600Hz, if I recall correctly, and this is a point where many loudspeakers have a phase problem. This will give rise to a poor stereo soundstage.

There is a lot of useful information about this subject here. Please do not quote this article before reading it in full. It is generally in support of the phase/time theory, but does give a rational view, which some may not like.

Multi-drive speakers will always have some problems with phase. These can be lessened with a well designed crossover but the variable nature of speaker drive units will always make sure this is not a perfect solution. The ideal way to get rid phase/time alignment problems is to use an active crossover and bi/tri amping.
Though this is not easy on a £1000 budget. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 114
Registered: Jun-04
"Giving the name of a single recording engineer means nothing in the grand scheme of all the recording engineers out there".

Although I think more and more engineers are getting into higher fidelity monitors for their studios it's unfortunate most engineers are still not savvy when it comes to higher quality sound. I've taken mixes that I've heard in various studios around NYC, brought them back to hear on my Sequerras, and heard problems that we didn't hear in the other studios.

Also when I'm outside of the pro realm and I'm at an engineer's house I get very disappointed in their idea of a home stereo.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 332
Registered: Feb-04
mauimusicman wrote:

Peter, i'll answer your question. First order x-overs are no more difficult math wise than 4th order. They are the most basic of crossovers.

So first-order filters are quite easy mathematically. I'm glad we agree.

My Europa's have, I believe two parts to the crossover.

Right. Easy.

Whats difficult is the time domain math, easily the hardest math in all of physics.

Now that's plain silly. Time to frequency domain transforms are not the hardest math in physics!

You see Peter, the speaker sitting over in the corner is not what your ears are hearing. The sound you hear is only the motion of the air molecules next to your ears. The sound you hear isn't over there.....it's right next to you.

Thanks for that condescending tutorial.

Now, how do you get those molecules creating sound next to your ears to be in the same time domain, phase wise as the speakers across the room? The math is quite complex just for phase errors alone. Have a look for yourself.
http://www.music.miami.edu/programs/mue/Research/dkoya/chapter_1/chapter_1.htm


That's pretty standard fair and doesn't say much. Quickly reading between the lines he's only saying that for the phases to match up when music reaches your ears, you must delay the higher frequencies by a proportionnaly longer amount of time. This only works for a single distance to speakers, preferentially near-field. You are optimizing phase alignment at one location. Sitting at any other place in the room will still lead to phase differences. Since I like to fill the room with music, this can't be applied to my case. I'm not listenning near-field at a constant distance.

Also, the theory behind extreme slope filters is that while the phase difference introduced at frequencies past the filter cut-off might be great, you'll not going to hear it anyway at, say, -12dB compared to the output at the same frequency of the other driver.

Peter

 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 335
Registered: Feb-04
s/fair/fare/

Sorry abou the typo.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 336
Registered: Feb-04
Now that's ironic.

s/abou/about/

:-)
 

New member
Username: Erik

Post Number: 4
Registered: Apr-05
MAn, 96 posts and only a few recommendations....I first regretted accidentally starting my own thread with the same exact topic but now I hope I actually get something outside a shiting match with GMA's and other comapnies.

I dont want to get into the arguement but maui is obviously a biased employee or owner of GMA by the following comment...
"Im afraid thats a trade secrett Christopher. If I told you I would have to kill you. I can tell you that most of those reviews are done by heads of the industry. You are definately getting wha t you pay for. I challenge you to test one for yourself and find out"

----not only is the system over my price range but like everybody else, Im not gonna risk over a thousand with a skimpy site and somebody Ive never heard of.

 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 188
Registered: Feb-05
I agree with your every point Erik. I am not invested in nor do I give a rats behind what speakers anyone buys. I will give suggestions but they are just that, suggestions based on my opinions. I only hope that whatever speakers people buy or own that they are enjoying the music. That's what this is all about. There are many different speaker brands and designs, most of which sound good to someone's ear. It's about the music folks.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Peter, I hear where your coming from. You made a statement saying "Also, the theory behind extreme slope filters is that while the phase difference introduced at frequencies past the filter cut-off might be great, you'll not going to hear it anyway at, say, -12dB compared to the output at the same frequency of the other driver." Wrong. Only the drivers accoustical output is down 12db, not the phase irregularities caused by the filter. Remember the first CD players? How TERRIBLE they sounded? If so, the reason they sounded SOOOOOOOO bad was the anti-aliasing brick wall filter they used. CD's are recorded at 44.1K sampling frequency. The filter used was at 22.05k (exactly one half of the sampling frequency) Now, one wouldn't think a filter way up at 22Khz would be audable but it WAS. It added Sooooo much phase shift in the audable bandwith that people hated the sound. Manufacturers learned quickly that the sound improved DRAMATICALLY simply by increasing the sampling rate from 44.1 to 88.2K, thereby allowing them to move that filter up to 44.1k....placing the related phase issues higher in the frequency spectrum. As far as phase/time coherant speakers not being important because you have a large room or several listening points, wrong again. The first signal to reach your ears from the speakers is almost always going to be the original with few room effects. Some claim higher order speakers sound better out of the sweet spot than do first order. Wrong again. Time/phase aligned speakers sound better even two rooms removed because what hits the wall is in phase so the bounce off the wall is more in phase than higher order systems, which are NEVER in phase. Here's why: The higher order crossover is always going to add phase shift to the signal. ALWAYS. Phase shift is bad. Your smearing the original signal both in time and intent. Neither of these things can be argued intellegently as being somehow better.
More and more reviewers are coming around to the time/phase aligned speaker theories. Here's a quote from Paul Candy of 6moons.com in a recent review of Living Voice speakers: "Over the course of the last couple of years, the Meadowlark Audio Kestrel 2 and the quite spectacular Green Mountain Audio Callisto have swayed me heavily into the time/phase coherence camp"

Erik.......FYI: The comment you qouted me as saying never came from me. There is someone here, probably a kid, posting under my name. Easy to spot his posts....he cannot spell worth a crap. Probably one of the effects of outcome based education. However, the crossover in the GMA speakers took 30 years to develope. They have actually finally figured out time domain physics. The results are breathtaking, to say the least. Human voices and instruments sound more real than any speaker I have heard. And i've heard a ton. After spending 30 years and a boatfull of money perfecting this crossover, i'm resonably certian Roy isn't too eager to let his competition have it. If you think $1K is too much for a truly great speaker, you haven't looked at many great speakers. At $1K, these things are without question the greatest bargain in all of audio.
Buy what you want. It's your money. All i'm trying to do is help people get better sound for their hard earned cash and be able to enjoy music...ALL of their music....not just the audiophile recordings. THAT is the true magic of time/phase alignment.
 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
maui, GMA's will sound good even w/ bad recordings (say mp3). where's hifi in that?
 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
maui, GMA's will sound good even w/ bad recordings (say mp3). where's hifi in that?
 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
maui, GMA's will sound good even w/ bad recordings (say mp3). where's hifi in that?
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 337
Registered: Feb-04
maui wrote:

"you'll not going to hear it anyway at, say, -12dB compared to the output at the same frequency of the other driver." Wrong. Only the drivers accoustical output is down 12db, not the phase irregularities caused by the filter.

You don't understand. Say two drivers are outputing a signal near the crossover frequency. The main driver is not phase shifted because it's within the filter cutoff; the second driver is phase shifted but its signal is 12 dB down. I'm saying that you won't hear the effect of the one 12 dB down. This does not compare with CD filters since in that case there is no other non-shifted signal 12 dB louder, only the phase-shifted signal.

As far as phase/time coherant speakers not being important because you have a large room or several listening points, wrong again. The first signal to reach your ears from the speakers is almost always going to be the original with few room effects.

I'm not talking about sound bouncing off the wall filling a room. The URL you provided talked about ajusting the signal such that the phase is like that of the original signal for a single listening distance (time) only (as specified by the variable T). This doesn't scale to a large room since the phase will be out of alignment everywhere else anyway. Or do you think the phase will be magically aligned for every listening location in the room? Let's see:

Time/phase aligned speakers sound better even two rooms removed because what hits the wall is in phase

Yes, you do think that! Using your own words: Wrong! That's impossible. You can time-delay various frequencies such that they arrive at some specified distance in the same phase as the original signal, but phase won't line up at any point closer or farther away. Two rooms away? You've got to be kidding!

So you've dropped your claim about the hardest math in physics, have you?
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Peter, your comparing apples to oranges. The URL I provided you merely is showing the math to reveal phase irregularities in music. It is not the math required to design, implement and manufacture a time/phase aligned speaker. I thought I made that clear to you. Higher order crossovers smear the time/phase of the music at MANY frequencies, not just the x-over point. MOST frequencies, to be honest because they smear mostly the higher frequencies and there are two hundred times more frequencies in the upper range than the lower range.
"Time to frequency domain transforms are not the hardest math in physics" Care to provide me that math then Peter? Roy Johnson, GMA's designer has a Masters Degree in Physics, yet it took him 30 years to decipher time domain math and implement it in his designs. Why do you think there are Soooo few first order speakers available? Cause they are easy? Post the math for me Peter, please? Show the forum how sharp you are! Post it here.
"Or do you think the phase will be magically aligned for every listening location in the room?"
Of course not, but it WILL be much more in phase with the original signal than any other order crossover. How can a speaker that never was in phase suddenly be in phase because of room reflections? Explain? Mine sound fine not two rooms removed....but even three rooms removed. I never said they were IN PHASE two rooms removed. I said they sound fine. Sort of blows the "Small sweet spot" for first order speakers theory away.
Bumblebee said "maui, GMA's will sound good even w/ bad recordings (say mp3). where's hifi in that?"
We ARE talking hi-fi here....not 10 to one compressed recordings. I do not listen to mp-3's.
However, the Europa's do make recordings you might consider unenjoyable on many speakers very listenable. They do that because they do not add phase distortions to the playback. Somehow, you manage to turn that into a bad thing. Look at it this way. Someone here said "Try Deep Purple....those are the worst recordings" Ok, I dug out my old records and tried "Highway Star" Sounds fine. Not the greatest recording, but certianly very listenable. Not so on many speakers. Sounds fine here. So, in your twisted thinking, the recording sounds fine here therefore MY speakers are bad or wrong? If the recording sounds fine here but not fine on many other speakers ....doesn't that tell you it's NOT the recording thats bad? Not sure what your logic is there. Care to explain? I guess your one of those that come from the camp that a great speaker should only sound great on perfect recordings. Why then, would ANYONE buy them? Most folks record/cd collections include a small percentage of audiophile discs. I have more than most, but still less than 20% are audiophile pressings. With your logic, I shouldn't be able to listen to, and enjoy 80% of my music collection. Thats unacceptable to me. If it's acceptable to you, go for it.
 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
if you have a poorly recorded source, whether cd, dvd-a, sacd, lp or what have you, it should sound bad. that's hifi for me.

30 years to implement. how about a Nobel?
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 340
Registered: Feb-04
Maui,

You wrote:

The URL I provided you merely is showing the math to reveal phase irregularities in music. It is not the math required to design, implement and manufacture a time/phase aligned speaker.

I can only disclaim what you showed me, which was straightforward transform math. I never said it was a filter design, but I did actually describe what the math was about.

Then you childishly baited:

Post the math for me Peter, please? Show the forum how sharp you are! Post it here.

First order filter math is easy, but it appears you wouldn't understand it anyway if I wrote it down here (hard to do without greek and math typesetting capabilities). It can't take anyone 30 years to implement 1st order filters because there's not that much to implement about them. Since you brought up degrees, I hold a B.Sc.A. in engineering physics as well as a Ph.D. in physical oceanography, so I'm not all that easily impressed by an M.Sc. in physics.

A 1 KHz sine wave has a wavelength of about a foot, so move your ears 6 inches and it's 180 deg out of phase. So how can any initial phase make any sort of difference? Much less 3 rooms away.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 59
Registered: Feb-05
Now that is how a senseless insult is properly "dealt" with no insult back! Way to go Peter! E.Ramsey
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 60
Registered: Feb-05
Now that is how a senseless insult is properly "dealt" with no insult back! Just the exposure of stupidity rather than the stupidity of insult. Way to go Peter! Great response! E.Ramsey
 

Hendrick
Unregistered guest
Hey Guys. Great forum post. I actually have the same questions regarding speakers as Boris. My pricerange is closer to the $600/pair. I've found some of the following speakers on the used market, and I haven't had an opportunity to audition any of them. I'm using an integrated Rotel-RA1070 amp conservatively rated at 100w/ch x 2 into 8 ohms.

These speakers will be strictly for music, and my musical tastes are as follows in order from most listened to least listened. I've omitted music I don't listen to.

Easy Listening
Lyrical Hip Hop
Alternative Rock
80's pop
90's pop
Dance/Techno/Drum Bass/House
Classical
60's and 70's rock

I have an apartment that's roughly 20 feet by 12 feet. And I'm considering purchasing 3 of the following for roughly 600-700 dollars which includes stands if they are bookshelfs. 80% of my music listening will be done quietly, but I'd like for my speakers to pump out volume, and bass enough to stay true to my hip hop/techno music. (I, however, am not in love with bass).

Green Mountain Audio Europas
Vandersteen 2CE
Axiom Audio m60ti

Can anyone give me the positives and negatives of each of the speakers in relation to my listening preferences and situation? What is the best value b/t them?
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Peter, you said........and I quote "Now that's plain silly. Time to frequency domain transforms are not the hardest math in physics"
I merely asked you to post the physics for us all to see. You can design that time/phase coherant speaker two ways. Easiest way, though not a truly time/phase alinged system, is to recess the tweeter back into the cabinet. This is by far the most common method by speaker designers. One problem: The tweeter then splashes off the lower portion of the cabinet it's recessed in, therefore defeating much, if not all of the time/phase alignment properties of the system. This is still a much better approach than most conventional systems use...that being the philosophy of "Well....I can't figure out time domain physics therefore i'll have to delay the tweeter one full cycle compared to the woofer. Yeah, good plan. I digress. The other way to do a time/phase aligned speaker is to spend half a lifetime working your butt off, swapping drivers, crossovers....doing the really tough math and buying and using the very best parts money can buy and incorporating them in the quietest possible cabinet made of cast marble to pretty much eliminate cabinet resonances and wire these amazing drivers together with Audio Magic's best silver wire and use a very simple crossover that doesn't muck up the musical signal as it passes thru. No need now to recess said tweeter in cabinet nor is there need now to figure out how to "fix" the cabinet splash of said tweeter. Unfortunately, this way is not cheap. Nor is it easy. Two things the VAST majority of speaker companies LOVE. Of course the hard part is to get the speaker, possibly 8 to 15ft from your ears to vibrate the air molecules next to your ear in precisely the exact same time domain as the speakers. Think about it. How does one go about doing that? Paradigm can't do it. Nor can B&W. Neither can JBL, Revel, Infinity, Def Tech, Sonus Faber, Boston Accoustics, ADS, Ariel Accoustics, Von Schweikert....etc etc etc. According to you, Peter....it's easy. If so, why don't we see more time/phase aligned speakers? I mean, really Peter, why smear the phase of the musical signal if you don't have to? So again, I ask.......post the required physics for us all here.
How much can phase incoherence mess up the musical intent? Let me propose the following from the article you claim to have read diligently:

"Timbre is a multidimensionally perceived tonal attribute that differentiates tones of identical pitch, loudness, and duration. It is influenced by steady state waveforms, transient characteristics (the onset especially), and slower spectral changes over a series of tones. For example, a piano and a trumpet can play the note A440 of identical frequency, sound pressure, and duration but have clearly audible differences. Although it was once believed that the human ear is "phase deaf," in accordance to Ohm's acoustical law , more recent research has shown that relative phase has subtle effects on timbre, in particular when changing phase relationships occur within a continuously sounding tone.

For timbral sensation, the onset portion and other transient characteristics within the dynamic waveform are especially important. The onset is the opening portion of a tone, where the energy supplied exceeds the energy expended. Tones produced by continuous excitation of the vibrating source, such as a blown reed or mouthpiece, or a bowed string, have an onset that is followed by a steady state section, where the energy supplied and expended are in balance for the most part. Tones produced by impulsive excitation of the vibrating source, such as plucked string and piano tones, do not possess a steady state. The offset or decay, where the energy expended exceeds any supplied, concludes a tone.

A steady-state vibration pattern from a vibrating system cannot be attained instantaneously. Onset times of various instruments vary. The trumpet has an onset time of about 20 msec while the flute requires 200 to 300 msec. Even this short (in absolute terms) onset time of 300 msec is significant in perception of timbre. This significance was demonstrated in an experiment where the initial portion of a tone was removed. It was revealed that even experienced musicians had considerable difficulty in discerning common orchestral instruments.
Let me run that by you once again: "even experienced musicians had considerable difficulty in discerning common orchestral instruments"
Of course, they are merely "experienced musicians" playing their instruments hours/daily not to be compared by any means to someone who holds degree's in "B.Sc.A. in engineering physics as well as a Ph.D. in physical oceanography"
However, since we are on the subject of oceanography, what do you "PHD types" propose to do about the current problem we have with all the earths oceans absorbing the entire output of Carbon Dioxide modern man has emitted since the turn of the century? Your thoughts?



 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
"However, since we are on the subject of oceanography, what do you "PHD types" propose to do about the current problem we have with all the earths oceans absorbing the entire output of Carbon Dioxide modern man has emitted since the turn of the century? Your thoughts?"

hey, i thought plants absorb CO2? how can the ocean absorb CO2?
 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
maui,

i don't know where you get your articles but this link might interest you.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/HumanHearingPhaseDistortio.php
 

bumblebee
Unregistered guest
maui,

i don't know where you get your articles but this link might interest you.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/HumanHearingPhaseDistortio.php
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 347
Registered: Feb-04
Maui wrote:

I merely asked you to post the physics for us all to see.

The URL you posted was simple time/frequency domain transforms... No filter design there.

You can design that time/phase coherant speaker two ways. Easiest way, though not a truly time/phase alinged system, is to recess the tweeter back into the cabinet.

That offsets the phase by a given distance, and the phase change will be variable with frequency.

I digress. The other way to do a time/phase aligned speaker is to spend half a lifetime working your butt off, swapping drivers, crossovers....doing the really tough math and buying and using the very best parts money can buy and incorporating them in the quietest possible cabinet made of cast marble to pretty much eliminate cabinet resonances and wire these amazing drivers together with Audio Magic's best silver wire and use a very simple crossover that doesn't muck up the musical signal as it passes thru.

How does most of that affect phase?

Of course the hard part is to get the speaker, possibly 8 to 15ft from your ears to vibrate the air molecules next to your ear in precisely the exact same time domain as the speakers. Think about it. How does one go about doing that? Paradigm can't do it. Nor can B&W. Neither can JBL, Revel, Infinity, Def Tech, Sonus Faber, Boston Accoustics, ADS, Ariel Accoustics, Von Schweikert....etc etc etc.

Because it's marketing-speak, doesn't mean anything and can't be done! You just said above use a simple crossover! It's a simple crossover that can't do this magic!

How can a signal with a wide range of frequencies be in phase everywhere in the room at the same time? It can't!

According to you, Peter....it's easy.

No, it's impossible. First-order filter are easy.

what do you "PHD types" propose to do about the current problem we have with all the earths oceans absorbing the entire output of Carbon Dioxide modern man has emitted since the turn of the century?

Get some Kyoto credits fo it? What current problem? What are you talking about? Heck, if the ocean would absorb all the CO2, then we the climate change problem would be solved! Are you as much an expert on climate change as you are on time-phase physics?


 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 160
Registered: Jan-05
http://www.nsmaudio.com/brochures/5broc.html

Much cheaper than the Europa and still time coherent. Jan pointed this line of speakers out on another thread.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 348
Registered: Feb-04
After re-reading his post, I had to post again...

Maui wrote

You can design that time/phase coherant speaker two ways. Easiest way, though not a truly time/phase alinged system, is to recess the tweeter back into the cabinet.

The reason some speaker designers recess tweeters is not for phase alignment, it's for time alignment. Only. Nothing to do with phase.

This significance was demonstrated in an experiment where the initial portion of a tone was removed. It was revealed that even experienced musicians had considerable difficulty in discerning common orchestral instruments.
Let me run that by you once again: "even experienced musicians had considerable difficulty in discerning common orchestral instruments"
Of course, they are merely "experienced musicians" playing their instruments hours/daily not to be compared by any means to someone who holds degree's in "B.Sc.A. in engineering physics as well as a Ph.D. in physical oceanography"


Man oh man. Sure. Electronically alter the sound of an instrument by cutting some bits out and it no longer sounds like that instrument. What does that prove again? And what do my degrees have to do with it? I never said these degrees gave me a better ear, so please refrain from insinuating otherwise. Stop attacking the person when you argue.
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 254
Registered: Nov-04
i think maui has finally met his match
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 119
Registered: Jun-04
Hey stealth, thanks for the NSM link - those are even cheaper than my Sequerras (mine are $500 demos from the mfr.).
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Arthur, since you speak of reproducing recorded venues at home, let us delve briefly into the recording industry, shall we? It is very important to know what a microphone, any mic, does to the original sound. If you haven't been in a studio to hear a "raw" mic signal, then you must imagine: the microphone does not know up from down, nor left from right- it knows only relative distances, or time delays. A mic compresses all dimensions into one single point that has "depth". In other words, Arthur, a mic only hears one dimension: Distance. Distance is time. Time/phase is whats smeared by the vast majority of speakers.

If a mic is set above an instrument, looking down, then it places the floor's echo directly "behind" the instrument- that's the best image we can ever get out of the speaker. So much for faithfullness to the absolute sound.

Anytime you hear "height " from a speaker system, it is likely the fault of the tweeters being out of phase- not time-coherent- with the mids. Multiple mics hearing the same event can create "height", but by chance, and not often. The "perfect" stereo image unfortunately lies along an infinitely thin line stretching from left to right, a series of pinpoints with depth.

If you can't hear that, it is the fault of the speakers, not the recording or one's electronics. If you can't hear that, it is because the speakers are smearing those points into a "wall of sound". If you can't hear that, you are missing a great deal of the finesse and the harmonic shifts in the music. Of course, if you hadn't ever heard those, how would you know what's missing...
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Peter, I appologise if you feel your being attacked. Your not. Just your words are. When a speaker smears the time/phase of the music (many do by many many degree's) you are accoustically altering the sound of ALL the instruments/voices. It has been proven time and time again, that the human ear is sensitive to phase errors of one degree. When you do this, you alter the pitch and timbre of the instruments, and you take away emotion from vocalists. You are drawn into the music much much more with time/phase coherent speakers than non time/phase aligned speakers. They are also much less fatiguing.
As far as the CO2 thing goes....guess your not up to date on that degree you have huh? It was in the papers here in Hawaii a few months back.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Stealth, thanks for the link to the NSM-5 speakers. I'm sure they are pretty darn nice for the money. When you read reviews of 1st order speakers, the main things said are "Their ability to unravel detail, particularly through the midrange, is excellent and easily on par with speakers that cost $1000 or more" and "vocals were cast so rock-solid in the center that I placed it among the best I've heard at any price"
This is what you hear when you eliminate the phase smear of higher order crossovers.
Unfortunately, one cannot compare them to the Europa's, sorry. The Europa uses a larger and better woofer and a better tweeter. It uses better internal wiring. Better binding posts. The
NSM cabinet is MDF. Put a stethescope up to it's side and you'll hear it ring. The Europa uses a MUCH deader....quieter cast marble cabinet. The NSM weighs 7lbs each. Europa weighs 45 lbs each. The Europa is more effecient and will handle more power. And it is a heck of a lot more coherent. Of course, nobody here will take my word for it. So........listen to both. Decide for yourself. It would be pretty much a no-brainer. But still, probably a very nice speaker for the money.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Gas_wyoming

Cody, WY

Post Number: 20
Registered: Mar-05
Ocean water at atmospheric pressure and an average temp of 20 dgrs C can only hold so much CO2. According to Henry's law, the water and air containing CO2 are basically at some phase of equilibrium constantly. It makes a little sense that as the CO2 increases, the ocean water would absorb more, but that buffering effect can only go so far. What's even more intereting...dissolved gases evolve and adsorb as we have changes in barometric pressure and temperature. It depends on the conditions at the time you measure these parameters. Much like it depends on how far from the speaker you place the meters to get the frequency response. Bottom line...The air is cleaner now (with many more inhabitants on this blue marble) than it was in 1970. Even the tree huggers, granola eaters and Democrats in EPA agree with this fact.

Now, let's post about speakers less than $1000. Instead of a registered member of this forum, I feel more like a moderator. Sheesh!
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Peter, here's the link to the CO2 news. the article I read said all of the co2 was absorbed into the oceans. This one says half. Enjoy.
http://geography.about.com/b/a/099652.htm?iam=momma_100_SKD&terms=carbon+dioxide +and+the+earths+oceans
 

Silver Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 255
Registered: Nov-04
maui you are still attacking the person not the words.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 350
Registered: Feb-04
maui wrote

Peter, I appologise if you feel your being attacked. Your not. Just your words are.

No, you are attacking the person instead of the ideas. You do it again at the end of that very same post!

By the way, you haven't challenged the fact that phase changes as sound propagates and you can only rebuild the phase as it is in the original recording for one single distance from the speakers. You still appear to think the music is in phase everywhere in the room.

As far as the CO2 thing goes....guess your not up to date on that degree you have huh? It was in the papers here in Hawaii a few months back.

Now that's rich. You should said you don't attack the person above, yet apparently I'm not up to date on that degree. Let me go point-form for you:

1) We're known for a while that about half of the world's produced CO2 isn't in the atmosphere where we put it by burning fossil fuel, but has been sequestered by the world's ocean.

2) This is not a problem we Ph.D. types have to solve, as you initiated baited, because it's a good thing. It is slowing down global warming. What did you think I meant by getting Kyoto credits for it? So just how smart do you look now for baiting me with something you know little about?

3) If you think reading a science paragraph in the newspaper makes you enough of an expert on the subject to try to make a research scientist look bad on an unrelated forum, your debating skills need work, you are showing lack of respect for the forum, and you are attacking the person and not the ideas. Or I could assume it was a diversion tactic to make me stop pointing out errors in your phase arguments.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jim_mcbob

Post Number: 70
Registered: Nov-04
It was a diversion tactic, Mr. Galbraith.

For what it's worth, I like the other Mauimusicianman better--at least he's INTENTIONALLY funny.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
That is a personal attack Mr. McBobberts, if that is even your real name, and I take grave offense to that. Is this the type of people that roam these forums? I have done nothing but contribute useful information about the wonderful GMA Europa, a speaker whose price defies its performance in every aspect, and all anyone ever does is attack me.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
To the other maui, learn to spell.

"stethescope", "effecient", "appologise", "accoustically", etc. Go back to school.

PS. Your grammar needs work too. "Peter, I appologise if you feel your being attacked. Your not." The word you are looking for is you're, not your.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
For those interested in the time/phase alignment approach, I cannot stress enough the importance of studying every page in the AES Anthologies, reprinted by Old Colony Sound Labs. There you will see clearly the faults and the strengths of every driver type, and how those measure, and the same for cabinets, crossovers, and room problems. I recommend Volume 1 as the most useful. Perhaps the most difficult concept to grasp is Radiation Resistance.

It is also important to know what a microphone, any mic, does to the original sound. If you haven't been in a studio to hear a "raw" mic signal, then you must imagine: the microphone does not know up from down, nor left from right- it knows only relative distances, or time delays. A mic compresses all dimensions into one single point that has "depth", or distance. Distance equals time. Modern recordings are made with the recording engineer placing 36 to 128 individual tracks in the space between left and right. These "tracks" are essentially single mic feeds run thru a mixing console. Your speakers main job then, is to faithfully re-create those many pinpoint signals in your listening room as the recording engineer placed them in the mix.

If a mic is set above an instrument, looking down, then it places the floor's echo directly "behind" the instrument- that's the best image we can ever get out of the speaker. So much for faithfullness to the absolute sound.

Anytime you hear "height " from a speaker system, it is likely the fault of the tweeters being out of phase- not time-coherent- with the mids. Multiple mics hearing the same event can create "height", but by chance, and not often. The "perfect" stereo image unfortunately lies along an infinitely thin line stretching from left to right, a series of pinpoints with depth.

If you can't hear that, it is the fault of the speakers, not the recording or one's electronics. If you can't hear that, it is because the speakers are smearing those points into a "wall of sound". If you can't hear that, you are missing a great deal of the finesse and the harmonic shifts in the music. Of course, if you hadn't ever heard those, how would you know what's missing...
Digest that for a while. I'm sick of the imposters, the questioning of my every post, the redicule......so find someone else to fight with. I'm sure the other mauimusicman will continue to post here.....attempting to smear my name. So be it. I came here to try to educate and inform. Few here want that. You already know it all....no need for me anymore. Aloha.
Peter, about the CO2 thing? Slowing global warming may or may not be a good thing. The sea life with spines that are becoming soft and brittle due to the co2 is not a good thing. People in Hawai love the 'Aina.
We as humans are destroying it day by day...little by little. But, as long as we have people like you that can turn a bad thing into a positive and ignore the cold hard facts, the earth will continue to suffer.
In closing I would hope that some here have benefited from my posts. I would also hope that some would be encouraged to at least listen to the GMA product. Then judge it for yourselves.
I'm gone.


 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Once again proving you cant make a single post without some sort of spelling error. Thank you Mr. Blowhard. Perhaps your arrogance combined with your lack of communication and people skills is why we "redicule" you.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 122
Registered: Jun-04
Maui, if your lurking - are you done with this thread or this site? I was listening to Massive Attack/Mezzanine this morning and I realized another aspect that I find lacks so much in most speakers. I'm always hearing about wide soundstage but I'm also curious about depth. I think that's something else that seperates the 6dB xover from the higher order ones. The higher order designs tend to compress the soundstage in both depth and tone/timbre. To me, everything sounds tight and bright.

Opposite from the dense Massive Attack mix, I also find interersting things from my live Mini-disc recordings that I make of my band. I A/B'd my Ohms to a pair of psb image 4t's and Paradigm Studio 60's and I was surprised how such a simple recording was so revealing of the speaker's performance. I found the Ohms were the only one that actually sounded like the room that I played in. The other speakers imaging was a little more pinpoint, but there was no sense of the room (again, depth).

One last example is watching TV/movies. I like checking dialogue between the 3 speakers mentioned above, and once again the Ohms were the only ones to really convey the sense of where the actors were. When a dialogue takes place in a car, it sounds like they're in a car! Large rooms are easier for all of the speakers because the ratio of the room's reverb to the actual dialogue is less subtle. Once again, I think it's the depth that helps bring us into the setting!

My apoligies for the negative comments on the psb's and Paradigms. They are both fine speakers, but I thought I'd just throw out my experiences for other listeners to think about.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 358
Registered: Feb-04
Maui wrote:

Peter, about the CO2 thing? Slowing global warming may or may not be a good thing. The sea life with spines that are becoming soft and brittle due to the co2 is not a good thing. People in Hawai love the 'Aina.
We as humans are destroying it day by day...little by little. But, as long as we have people like you that can turn a bad thing into a positive and ignore the cold hard facts, the earth will continue to suffer.


Will you please:

(1) Stop posting about subjects both unrelated to the forum and that you know nothing about.

(2) Stop blaming me for global warming. So it's people like me now?

(3) Consider: Even if we wanted to double the rate of CO2 addition to the atmosphere and speed up global warming to spare the ocean, do you think there's a switch people like me control that can do that?

The ocean is in near equilibrium with the atmosphere. There has always been CO2 in the ocean. For the ocean to actually trap CO2, it has to sequester it within sediments (by first sinking to the bottom in solid form). How is that a bad thing (that I am turning into a good thing)?

Anyway, good diversion. You no longer defend your points about phase 2 or 3 rooms away.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Peterr, we here in Hawai love our 'Aina, and you are killling them with your apathy. You have the power to stop the CO2. All you have to do is stoo cutting down all the trees and prevent the burning of fossil fuels. How hard is that really? So what if other nations beyond our control are ramping up their industrial capacity, which will further exacerbate the problems of CO2 production. You have the power! And BTW, I have an exxcellent understandng of the global warming issue. I took a geography clas in high school. I think I'm more than qualified to talk about it thank you very much Mr. Ph.D.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 123
Registered: Jun-04
You're on your own now - I think Maui split.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 80
Registered: Feb-05
I agree with you very strongly Peter! One should not talk about non-audio related issues on this forum particulary if the have no clue of what they are talking about. I once wrote a paper on CO2 production. The fact is that automobiles only account for about 5% of the world's CO2 production. This is a classically misguided argument by the "tree huggers". Most of the CO2 emission is produced by industrial emissions, construction,mining,agricultural production. Much of the deforestation of the rainforests is being done by indigenous peoples clearing land for farming. This is also a mistake since the soils of most rainforests particulary in South America are not very fertile, the trees and plants form elaborate root structures to compensate for this. How did I know this? I took a course in college in climatology. The study of a subject in high school hardly will qualify someone as even somewhat knowledgeable about a subject since most high school subjects are very basic and seldom delve into intricate matters of a subject that would be much more studied in detail on a collegiate level.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
...your ability to distinguish sarcasm from normal speech is just darling Eric. Then again I should have known this from our conversation last night.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 82
Registered: Feb-05
Sorry Maui, when I read posts on this forum I take them for face value and do not make assumptions of things that aren't there. Unlike some other people on this forum. E.Ramsey
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
You fail to see the jokes embedded within that post? I thought I made them fairly obvious. The whole "Ohh Peter you have the power!" thing I found amusing. Or how he is killing our 'Aina with his apathy. Or maybe the person who took a high school class once challenging a Ph.D. to a debate wasn't blatantly BS? Come on Eric. You have to be able to figure out when your chain is getting yanked.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
You fail to see the jokes embedded within that post? I thought I made them fairly obvious. The whole "Ohh Peter you have the power!" thing I found amusing. Or how he is killing our 'Aina with his apathy. Or maybe the person who took a high school class once challenging a Ph.D. to a debate wasn't blatantly BS? Come on Eric. You have to be able to figure out when your chain is getting yanked.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 83
Registered: Feb-05
Ok Maui, I see your point. I also should have seen that you are in fact a salesman for GMA,otherwise why would someone dwell on a speaker so much when there are many fine speakers out there.E.Ramsey
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Let the gerbil turn that wheel in your head a little more there Eric...
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
I guess you havnt quite caught on to the real maui / imposter maui thing huh?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 84
Registered: Feb-05
Oh that's a good one Maui! Perhaps you should try your luck as a comedian also! I'll refrain from insult, why lower myself to you gutteral level. Better yet I'll save the excrement from that gerbil as even trade for your opinions and viewpoints. E.Ramsey
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
At least I have not tried to seriously argue with someone who claims his vast musical experience consists of playing ukulele for the Best Western.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 85
Registered: Feb-05
To the Maui imposter: please leave this forum as you have nothing to contribute from absence of intellegence you give off in your pathetic,cowardly hidden agenda. Perhaps you can visit sunny South Carolina sometime. At 6'1" 205lbs i'll be happy to give you an a#@ kicking southern style. E.Ramsey
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Ohh have I gotten under your skin E. Ramsey AAS industrial electronics? Are your meaningless threats of physical violence truly needed here? It seems so out of your character. Then again I can understand if you have a problem admitting that my humor went over your head.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 86
Registered: Feb-05
Like I said come on down. We will see how funny you are with my fist down your throat. E.Ramsey
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Ouch. I guess this means youve lost control of yourself, ehh Mr. E. Ramsey AAS industrial electronics? Perhaps you should calm yourself down before you post again. M.Musicman Ph.D. Musicology (Prince Style)
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 213
Registered: Feb-05
Mr Ramsey, I don't often agree with you but you have been a good member of this forum. Please don't this imposter bring you down to his/her level. After all he is only slightly more annoying than the real maui.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
I think it is a little late for that one Arthur...M.Musicman Ph.D. Musicology (Prince Style)
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 216
Registered: Feb-05
Perhaps you're right Dr. Maui he does seem to have come unglued for the moment. I save the fact that I am 6'1" 255 lbs and not fat for those folks that get in my way. Did I mention that I can find anybody?
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Someone else seems to be getting out of character here ehh? Fortunately, laws govern this land that we live in which prevent your "beating me up" and getting away with it. Enjoy your night gentlemen. M.Musicman Ph.D. Musicology (Prince Style)
 

Silver Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 218
Registered: Feb-05
Dr Maui I'm just havin' fun. You don't bother me. Like I said you're not any more annoying than the real Maui.
 

Silver Member
Username: Petergalbraith

Rimouski, Quebec Canada

Post Number: 364
Registered: Feb-04
I think I'll disregard any maui posts until he registers. Of course, the imposter could register under his name as well for all we know.

He has stopped defending his magic phase in the next room anyway, so I guess I won something.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Gas_wyoming

Cody, WY

Post Number: 25
Registered: Mar-05
Do I hear 6'2", 260...yes!
6'5", 295...yes!!
7'1", 365...sold!

Let's all put our real measurements on the forum and then talk about who can beat up who. We're starting to sound like my 8 and 10 year-old boys who talk about whose dad can beat up...Governor Arnold!

It's been over 24 hours since something was said on this forum about speakers under $1,000 max., so I'm breaking the mold.

I'm considering an upgrade from Polk RT1000p's to Polk RTi10's. I think I can get the 10's for around $650. Question...should I buy Polks? I'm partial to them...they sound pretty good to me.

As I stated yesterday, not many audio stores here in Cody, WY. I have to travel to Billings, MT, Casper, Cheyenne, WY, Rapid City, SD or Denver. I hate Denver, so I'm pretty much stuck with Billings (where they don't charge sales tax!) or buying on the Internet. (I love Al Gore's invention, don't you!!!).

What are your suggestions? I also like towers vs. bookshelves on stands.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 453
Registered: Oct-04
"I'm considering an upgrade from Polk RT1000p's to Polk RTi10's. I think I can get the 10's for around $650."

IMO that's not much of an upgrade, I would consider spending extra for a pair of Rti12s, or get crazy and spring for the Lsi15s or Lsi25s. At $1850 and $3000 respectively the Lsi series has a lot of competition, but if you can find a deal are great speakers to have.

I own the Rti8s and love that Polk sound too. I have read several reviews that report that the Rti8s handle the mid-range better than the Rti10s, definitely a trade-off between the two with the 10s superior bass accuracy. Something to consider.
 

Anonymous
 
E. Ramsey: "a**-kicking, southern style"?

What's that, when you lose a fight and then blame the liberal media?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Twebbz

Ann Arbor, Michigan USA

Post Number: 50
Registered: Apr-04
I suggest you try amps other than Yamaha.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

Post Number: 155
Registered: Feb-05
maui...

why don't you register like the rest of us to keep someone from using your name?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 99
Registered: Feb-05
I'ts too late Gavin it's the fake Maui. E.Ramsey
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