Archive through March 13, 2005
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1505 Registered: Aug-04 | Larry Going by the connections, that Yamaha contraption will not do SACD or DVD-A. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 736 Registered: Oct-04 | My Rantz: Interesting that you mention (again) the SPL meters. When I got the Mordaunt-Short sub, and the B&W 705s, I also got "set-up" CDs from each company. OK, the B&W disc just came a week or so ago - after I'd registered the speakers. Anyway - the discs contain phase setups, and tone bursts of all sorts. On the audio "intro" portion of both discs, it is made quite plain that the companies would wish you to use SPL meters to set up the speakers initially. as I don't have such, I have just tried to balance them out aurally - with, I think, fairly good success. But with my room anomalies, I'm re-thinking - and shall probably get a meter. Heck, I've got all these extra quarters and nickels bouncing around - might as well spend them! (grin) On second thought - think I'll call my nutzy friend in LA - ask him to send me one of his meters "on loan." Then see if he can lose it under the car seat, as he did my "loaner" speaker cables! Yep. . . but who knows, he might actually get it sent! Stay tuned. . . More anon. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 737 Registered: Oct-04 | OOPS - just happened to remember, he someimes reads this forum. HEY, VERNE! SEND ME ONE OF YOUR SPL METERS, OK? that might do it. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 738 Registered: Oct-04 | MR - crossed posts - again. Thanx for the added comments on the Yamaha "thang." guess it's only for DVD movies, eh? Sounds to skittish for me, but the idea is rather amazing. . . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2870 Registered: Dec-03 | The other thing to say about re-setting channel levels from disc to disc: what is the reference? A test tone at the beginning? Not so many discs have these. The music itself? But it changes, itself, from second to second. Hifi should be like a gentleman's clothes: correctly set up, then forgotten about completely. Show me a fellow who is always looking in the mirror, straightening his tie, combing hs hair etc, and I'll you show someone who is probably adjusting the channels during the national anthem, instead of standing to attention. [Element of parody there] So I agree with MR; "set it and forget it". |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1506 Registered: Aug-04 | Larry, I got up for a while earlier (obviously from the wrong side of the bed) and turned on the 'puter for a few minutes before hopping back and trying to get back some lost sleep - with little success. I hope the day finds Mer and yourself fighting fit and that you might also hear some news about your Yamaha. Abscence surely makes the heart grow fonder - I believe that applies to music second to love (oh gush)! A final comment on the spl meter: I have found the need to use this a few times in the past month. Once when we purchased the 601's to replace the JBL wall mounts, next when we replaced the 601's with the 602's and finally the other day, after again repositioning the 602's and some furniture to accommodate the stands. The last readings I did in a hurry and later, when I sat down to have a relaxing hour or so with my music, I noticed things were not quite right. I couldn't put my finger on it, but the surround just seemed a little off. I got the meter out again and took the time to allow it's needle to settle with the test tones and found the original readings were not accurate - in other words, were done with too much haste. One needs to allow a good few seconds or more to get an accurate reading. Anyhow, once this task was completed, I put a disc back in the player, sat back, and everything sounded as it should: wonderful! I rest my case - now I just need to rest me LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1507 Registered: Aug-04 | John A We posted together. Thanks for seeing my point. And thank Eric, I seldom wear a tie, and I try not to look in the mirror to often as I only become more despondent when noticing even more hair loss. Even standing at attention is becoming an event rather than a ritual these days. I mean I play the anthem less often than I should. [grin] This age thing is happening too fast. First the ears go, then you have to go out and buy spl meters, then . . . |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | pedant (n): learned bore. We apparently have a different meaning for words here. I would greatly appreciate not being called boorish. So what's the beef? You want your system one way and I want mine set another way. There seems to be a consensus that we each have our own likes and dislikes. We don't really listen to the same music so why should we want the same results? I made my comments about the meter because you seemed quite adamant in your post that an SPL meter was essential. I have my reasons for not believing it to be essential to the success of a HT or music system. You are free to purchase and use whatever suits you. If you find your system sounds better after this set up, more power to you. If you like your music without ever changing the levels, Okey-Dokey. I asked whether anyone else felt the same. In reading reviews of surround discs I see a few writer's mention adjusting levels when they feel it necessary to enjoy the disc. I wondered if anyone else did the same thing to alter what is given when the levels didn't seem correct to their ear. Since I just haven't fallen in love with surround, I don't have that many discs I play in that format. For movies and TV though, I change the levels to suit what I want to hear as I do find little consensus among engineers as to what levels should be used. It is a bit of the same problem engineers have always faced in mixing sound. Do you mix for the best system available and say screw the majority who have the system from WalMart that gets overwhelmed by the amount of bass provided or do you mix for the mainstream market and have the guy with the best system never hear the best sound quality. There was no slight to your hearing or logic intended. My apologies if you took it that way. I do trust my hearing quite a bit since I made my living with it for many years. I know when I can tolerate something and when I can't. I've personally never found a meter useful for this type of system set up beyond what my ears can tell me. As to why "professionals" use meters, I could give an answer but it would be very pedantic and of little interest to the discussion. Can we just be satisfied that some of it is for show and some of it is because they have a reference level to set against. I believe I got an answer to my question about levels. I wasn't looking for a disagreeement of any kind. Like you said, Rantz - "I can't tell you what to believe - I can only go (from) my own experiences. Experiment ..." Now, at the risk of being offensive, I am curious about one other thing about the SPL meter. Once you've set the levels, if they don't change once they're in preset (or you just don't move them), do you pull out the meter occasionally to check whether they've changed? Do you ever change your mind about the levels you've chosen? I'm not looking for an argument, just some information. Kegger - John's comment, "But then we get back to Mercury and three-channel stereo. If that improves on the Quad sound-stage ... ", reminds me you purchsed a SACD of a three channel Mercury recording. You were holding off comment until you got your center speaker in place. Now that your system is up and running, have you come to any conclusions about the Mercury recordings? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1510 Registered: Aug-04 | "Pedant" The Concise Macquarie Dictionary: one who makes an excessive or tedious show of learning or learned precision; one who possesses mere book learning without practical wisdom. Pedantic, pedantical etc etc. Okay, not applicable. Now I don't know about Texas but the use of the word here has become a bit loose and generally means 'fussy' - so I used the term to state that you may be fussier in getting the sound right when I might tend to be more into the music. So I do apologise in saying you put words in my mouth when in fact according to your meaning of the said word you did not. Do I pull my meter out occassionally. Well, in having to confess that I do indeed have a meter, the answer is yes, but only in the case of a change in circumstance - change in furniture position, speaker position and other differences in room dynamics. One other thing (and the Denon manual recommends this): I use the Marantz receiver's decoders (and level settings) for movies and keep the Denon (universal player) with its settings for hi-res surround playback. This helps to adjust the bass management to suit both DVD-A and SACD. About on-the-fly setting changes - I think the only time any setting change is necessary (imho) is the bass (lfe) on some movies - though this is simply adjustable with the sub's volume control. My argument with the meter is aimed more towards music. When we play the normal old 'cd' we simply whack it on, adjust the volume and listen - the channel levels are set, there are only two. So in the case of multiple channels, when other factors come into play, room dynamics and so forth, there is a need for uniformity of levels at the listening postion. I know you know this - I'm not trying to tell you your business, but more to explain the point for others as well. IMHO with the hi-res surround formts (as with quality digital surround dvd-v in general) the channel distribution would be based on the fact that all channels are set to uniform levels at the listening position. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2283 Registered: Dec-03 | "Kegger - John's comment, "But then we get back to Mercury and three-channel stereo. If that improves on the Quad sound-stage ... ", reminds me you purchsed a SACD of a three channel Mercury recording. You were holding off comment until you got your center speaker in place. Now that your system is up and running, have you come to any conclusions about the Mercury recordings?" I was waiting for that to be raised again! I'm sorry but I just haven't gotten to it yet. I've got so many things going so many directions, I have to get to it. ____________________________________________________________ As far as the meter thing goes I do not find it a necessity but mearly handy! The way I use the thing is when I first setup a room I set the channels level from playing a source from my dvd player (I have a few disks with tones) At about 90db for everything then I listen for a couple weeks to see what I like changed if anything. In my room "for me" this turned out to be 90db mains and 92 db the rest. So now when I change components or move furniture I can run the test again and set everything back to "my" defaults rather quickly. I also like the meter for piece of mind. If I setup my sytem and 1 channel is like 6db lower than the other that has the same speaker and amp I can feel pretty confident that something is wrong but if there say, 2-3 db apart then I figure the system is probably fine and it's just the room ecoustics. And I don't have to wonder if my ears are telling the truth and "exactly" how far off it is. It can also be used as a tool to try and even out a rooms ecoustics. By moving things around and testing with the meter you see what your changing. It's much easier to tell with a meter exactly what your doing then guessing with your ears and maybe fooling yourself with a placebe effect of thinking this should change that. Not saying that anyone can't do it with there ears but with the meter there's not much thinking or guessing, you just know. So for me the meter is a tool for taking precise measurements that "I" can feel safe are accurate and even with respect to the other channels in my system. Not just using the meter to say this is what it should be so I'll set it there. But more for creating a reference point "for me"! Then once this reference point is made I can tweak from there in 1db increments. I just find it a very handy and inexpensive tool! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1511 Registered: Aug-04 | Agreed Kegger! Jan, you said: "My point was the use of a meter to adjust individual levels when you are not setting them to any fixed position is more dog and pony show than all my speaker set up instructions could hope for. Also if there is no real standard, my ears are as good an arbitter of personal preference as any meter." I don't understand this comment - I am setting them to a fixed postion. And the real standard is having all levels set equally using the test tone as a reference when there is no test disc on hand. A real good ear may get these balances right some of the time, but a meter will save time in doing so and give accuracy which becomes obvious with listening. In using the test tones and adjusting across the speakers there have been instances where I could swear they are all at the same level but the meter tells me I have been up to a few db's out one way or another. So personally, I'll stand by the meter. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | My comment refers to a standardized tone level that is matched with each source/disc. When using a tape from another theater or studio, I always requested a 1kHz signal at 0dB/Vu be placed on the tape so I could set levels and align my equipment appropriately from that tone. When a cinema sets up their equipment to run a film, they use a similar tone to adjust for levels. This is particularly true when the film is shown in a THX theater as the standards for THX demand levels for each channel be matched, and overall gain be set, to an approved level for the film. The idea of setting levels in a HT system came from the THX systems that were popular in the late '90's. At that point in time there were few standards in the consumer market concerning playback of films. To assure the customer they could achieve the full measure of the system they paid for, the levels were set with a meter. This was a bit of overkill in my opinion since so very few films were THX certified and most systems didn't fall into the THX certs from source to speakers. In the days before the remastering of soundtracks became a more common practice, the overemphasized EQ of a film mastered for theatrical release could be quite distracting and fatiguing on a THX balanced system. Mostly the level set trickled down to the lower price ranges and became a way to give the customer what they paid for - a dog and pony show in many respects. It also provided a way to get a customer with mismatched speakers or odd placement into the ball park of getting good sound. It allowed easy set up but not necessarily enjoyable set up. Admittedly a meter can show a more precise level when the customer has mismatched speakers and cannot discern what is happening when the sound they hear is quite different from speaker to speaker. In this instance a meter allows the client to always return to a given level no matter how far out of whack they've adjusted the system the night before. My instructions to customers were always to get the system set at a level they felt sounded best over the widest range of material that covered films, tapes, laserdiscs/DVD and TV programing and then they could make adjustments from that point to bring the sound to a pleasant listening level. Presets for these functions later became common and allowed the client to quickly alter the level set for a particular preference. If they wanted more bass for intergalactic explosions they could punch in what they wanted. If they needed more or less ambience to hear the dialog during a rain storm on screen, they could get that also. I think the prevalence of these presets on todays equipment can mean a system, in common practice, that is virtually never at a "consistent" level. This isn't a reference to a "disco" setting but the desire to make the sound pleasing to what the listener expects to hear. The problem is compounded by the advent of hi-rez since the amount of ambience on any one recording may be quite different from what is on the next disc. Read a few interviews with engineers and producers and you will see how surround is handled as a still very open field of experimentation. Though SACD and DVD-A have some suggested settings for speakers, they don't conform to the speaker placement for cinema. Even the rear speaker type is different for film vs. music. So the listener who uses the same system for both audio and video has already made a compromise in their system set up. Secondly, not all SACD engineers conform to the same system set up. Speakers are used in different fashion by different studios and the listener who really wants to get the most out of their playback of these discs will have to have an entirely different speaker set up for a Telarc or Chesky disc than when they play a more conventional SACD. With engineers using their own taste to set the amount of ambience on a disc or to adjust where an instrument occurs in space on a disc such as DSOTM, there would appear to be nothing that suggests a common level set can do much more than give an approximation of what was intended by the producer and even less regarding the actual sound heard at the performance. I do find many of the over produced surround recordings of music to be distracting. As with the choice of levels to get an enjoyable performance on cinema, I prefer to use the on the fly adjustments provided by the processor to get to what I consider an appropriate level for surrounds, center and sub. Since my level set can change from one source to another and one disc to another, I prefer to keep my settings as nothing more than a personal reference point, i.e. I know that the sub is usually set at 0 db and the surrounds at -3dB. When I raise or lower the levels for a particular disc, I can always go back to those points easily; but they represent little more than a starting point for me. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1512 Registered: Aug-04 | Yes, unless the bank balance is spilling over, there is a compromise for movie and music sound. A room for each and associated quality equipment would be for most a pipe dream. Though the compromise may not need to be so significent in the home. There are decent speakers around that work exceptionally well for both, though the set-up can be challenging depending on the space available and layout. My speaker set up is somewhere between the recommended sacd set-up and the dd and dts recommendtions. Not ideal, but the sound is excellent nevertheless. The Telarc and Chesky discs are an exception and in most part, and won't be appearing in my library (unless the recording is very special). The biggest problem in this whole surround set-up thing is the need for the OSD for most adjustments. Listening to music and having a display turned on is a distraction to say the least and to go through the pains of turning equipment on and off for the 'odd' recording is not my way of musical enjoyment. I have a couple of 4 channel jazz sacds and find them disappointing - I usually play them in two channel for some improvement, I've yet to hear a Chesky MC recording but, again, I'll need to use the OSD to turn the filter off, and set the speakers to large as to avoid the bass crossover - a pain in the flowport! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Why the need for the OSD? What I'm using are the on the fly controls on the remote for the processor. These are for only the basic adjustments I want during playback. The Chesky and Telarcs offer a fairly large amount of music I would like to listen to. They do present a bit of a challenge in that when I'm dissatisfied with the sound, I wonder if the problem is I cannot follow the Telarc set up without getting behind my system and rearranging my speakers. Since I don't use DVD-A I am curious about how much OSD it demands of a listener to make adjustments and how much of this varies from player to player. When I briefly had the Toshiba 4960 DVD/SACD player I found it extremely inconvenient to operate in any other than the factory default modes. That, among other problems, was what prompted my returning it to the seller. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1513 Registered: Aug-04 | I'm listening to Chris Rea's "Road to Hell" [and in stereo] through the 602's right now while on lunch. I'm still running 'em in - darn good stuff! Haven't heard this one in a good while. Anyway . . As the hi-res stuff is analogue all adjustments other than volume are done through the player set-up menu. One can change from MC to 2 channel, turn off the digital section and display but speaker levels (this can be done on the receiver also but still needs osd), sizes, filters and crossovers need the osd to follow what one is doing. I suppose I could learn to use it like a blind man - but if I happen to get half blind while listening I'll forget it all again. Actually, Telarc does have a few jazz recordings I'd like, but haven't really investigated their sound options as yet because they are difficult to get here still. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Good E.C., this sounds more and more like a plot for a scifi movie where the population is convinced they cannot live with out their OSD where subliminal messages can be transmitted. It can only be guessed what function the remotes implanted in everyone's hands are actually performing. Any comments here, John? |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 137 Registered: Jan-05 | Just saw this ad on Audiogon for S3/5 S3/5 Text of ad: Classic spendor 3/5 monitors in excellent condition. Birdseye. Sounds great. Only selling because I spend more time listening to my Maggies. Larry, I haven't done any speaker cable comparison yet. The Maggies are still connected with the HD cable. I only got the HD connected late Monday night....Tuesday night I watched TV and only did 1 hour of listening with the Maggies. Tonight, I worked late and didn't feel like switching cables so I've just been listening for the past 2.5 hours. Just simple listening, no measurements, no spl meters, just sitting down in the ole listening chair. Having said that, I do think it would be beneficial for me to get some type of measuring device so I can understand what a "rolloff" sounds/looks like. What Maggie model is your friend thinking of trying? Hope he likes them as much as I do. There can never be too many guitars.  |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1514 Registered: Aug-04 | "It can only be guessed what function the remotes implanted in everyone's hands are actually performing." Fertilising the pods! Re: the OSD Still I haven't yet had the need to make changes on the fly when listening to hi-res surround. Even movies for the most part seems consistant except for a few of the 'b' grades which we try to avoid - though there are some surprises among them. SM - no there can never be too many guitars unless on a country music stage. LOL! Are you still going to India? |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 739 Registered: Oct-04 | SM - wonderful ad! Thanx - and hope that your selling capers finally get over and done with! I doubt that you need SPL meters for speaker wire testing - so don't worry about that. Just worry about the sound - if you can tell a difference, and what that difference might be. I'm also a bit concerned about those speaker "clips" on the Mac - be sure NOT to let any loose wires stray out of the liddle holes. A short is no fun! Still pushing pin connectors for you - but just at the Mac-end of the wires. Friend is considering Maggies - period. Doesn't yet know what model. Will post any progress on his part. There are always too many guitars - if they are amplified. Acoustic guitars - you are right, there can never beeee toooo mannnnny. No word on the Yammie yet - so I get my CD "kicks" by listening on the computer sound system. OK, in its way, but not B&W!!! Still, it's not bad to have the music as I work away at editing dumb-n-dull research papers and such. Will Academics Never Learn? To write plain, cogent sentences, I mean. Sigh. Prob-lee not. Talk about your Pedantry!!! (grin) |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 740 Registered: Oct-04 | SM - well, I had this nice response - and when I hit Enter - it exited! Hmmm. . . Anyway - great ad! Seems you're in good company! On speaker wire testing - go with your ears - you don't need meters for that. But again I urge you toward pin connectors at the Mac-end of the wires. Those pesky wire-strands do tend to stray, and short out thangs. There are always too many amplified guitars - but never too many acoustic guitars. (fists up!!) My friend just mentioned Maggies - no special model. I'm urging him toward your MMGs. But don't know what he'll do. Jan V. - man, do I wish I didn't have to use OSD to change most of the sound-settings! But I do, so I tend to try to keep everything all tidy and neat. The NAD has presets, so I can use one speaker setup for sound, the other for movies. That helps - but I go back to the screen every week, just to make sure the settings are as I programmed them. A chore. . . We can just see SM in a Sari - perhaps purple with some gold piping? Ah, yes - jasmine in her hair, and man-servants at her feet. Heck, just like home! (grin) The Raj was not all bad. Take a tour of "free" India and you might agree with some ex-CIA friends of mine who were posted there - and hated most every minute of it. But SM will only be there a short while - and inside, out of most of the smell! good for SM! You'll come back smelling like curry. Note: the above was written by an old Colonialist at heart. The Mother Country gave up too soon. And now Amerika is trying - badly - to pick up where Britain left off. Sigh. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 741 Registered: Oct-04 | Hmmm - I see my first post magically re-appeared. Strange. Sorry - don't know what happened. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 138 Registered: Jan-05 | Larry, I know you don't need spl meters to test speaker wires. I guess lumping that comment into the same paragraph where I talked about speaker wire testing was misleading. My main point, which I've made before, is that I don't really know what things like "rolloff" mean and what that sounds like. Perhaps a measuring device would help? MR, You were the one who said too much guitar was "monotonous". I was just offering my differing opinion. You know, I thought about it and I realized you haven't like a single musical recommendation (Beck, Tift, JJ) I've made so I should just stop trying. As Larry would say, <sigh>. Country Music Haters, Once, again, I must take exception with across the board disparaging of country music. To be sure, most of the modern country is a load of c r a p. Of course, there are loads of c r a p in all musical genres. But, "real" country music (i.e. Johnny Cash, Loretta Lynn, Emmylou Harris, Hank Williams etc) is real music and is no less important in its cultural impact than some of the other music referred to in this forum. You don't have to like it, just show it a little respect. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 743 Registered: Oct-04 | SM - G-day, and happy Thursday to you. As to the SPL meters, which are being rather thoroughly discussed these dayz - well, again, you wouldn't use those to enable you to see/hear rolloff. They just measure sound pressure levels. I'll leave the tech comments to Kegger, Jan V., et al - but rolloff basically is just the point where a speaker stops or reduces in sound level certain frequencies. You could say your subwoofer "rolls off" at 100 Hz - meaning basically it stops reproducing sound above that frequency. Usually in steps, not suddenly. Jan and Kegger - pick it up here, please!!! Personally, I have "some" respect for "some" of most kinds of music - except those forms which some (not me) call "music" such as hip-hop and rap. Heck, I don't have respect for some classical music, either! Twelve-tone music, for example, is a fine intellectual exercise - but little more than that. That is a great example, SM, of what you refer to as a "load of c rap." Right-oh. Closing crescendo (allegro vivace, please) I hereby show some respect for some country music, but I still think there are too many stinkin' electric guitars! Where is Willie Nelson when we need him - and his wunnerful, beat-up acoustic guitar! Yes! (Cymbal crash, applause, please) (GRIN) |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 431 Registered: Mar-04 | My Rantz, now that's a coincidence, I was listening to Chris Rea's cd, "Expresso Logic" on the way to work this morning. I also have "Road to Hell," as well as a few other cds by him. I really enjoy his music and his, at times, gruff voice. Its the kind of voice you'd get from chain-smoking filterless Camels, I would guess. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 139 Registered: Jan-05 | Larry, Happy Thursday to you, Sir. Now, please note, I said "measuring device" not SPL meter. Maybe some one can tell me what devices help people like me who don't know what sounds you would hear at what frequencies and how to determine where things like rolloff occur. You wrote: SM - G-day, and happy Thursday to you. As to the SPL meters, which are being rather thoroughly discussed these dayz - well, again, you wouldn't use those to enable you to see/hear rolloff. They just measure sound pressure levels. I'll leave the tech comments to Kegger, Jan V., et al - but rolloff basically is just the point where a speaker stops or reduces in sound level certain frequencies. You could say your subwoofer "rolls off" at 100 Hz - meaning basically it stops reproducing sound above that frequency. Usually in steps, not suddenly. Jan and Kegger - pick it up here, please!!! So, how do you know the sound stops or rolls off at certain frequencies, beyond looking at the specs of the speakers? I have heard you and others talk about rolloff on occasion as if you are actually hearing the rolloff at a certain frequency and I always wonder "how do they know that?" Must be the golden ears I've heard mentioned. I understand the definition of rolloff but I don't understand how you hear it. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2284 Registered: Dec-03 | I don't have a lot of time at work being behind a firewall and having to connect to my home system to get out to the net! But the easiest way to explain or hear roloff would be if you've ever used an equalizer and turned down the frequencies in the low end would be rolling off the lows or turned down high frequencies would be rolling off the highs at whatever db you choose on the eq. you do the same thing to a certain extent with the bass and treble controls on your equipment. As it would seem larry would prefer the highs in his system rolled off somewhat. It's an aquired learning that over time playing with these adjustments or building things where you roll off frequencies you tend to get a feel for the roll off and what is bass heavy or midrange present or extended treble or the extreme of bright! But an equalizer would be the easiest way to experience it and hear what certain frequencies sound like. I have an eq which sends a pink noise tone out my speakers then is measured by a microphone calibrated to the eq that will show how the frequency response of your system compares to flat in a given room. "pink noise" covering the full range of tones accross the board flat. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 746 Registered: Oct-04 | Kegger: thanks for stepping up to the plate. Good hit, sir! SM - if you really want to see rolloff you'll have to buy/rent an oscilloscope - you know what they are. You'd have to do some pretty fancy hook-ups to the speakers - but then you could see the various frequencies, and by sending through various tones, you could see when the green line changed from wavy to flat - or, when the tone ceased to be produced. A lot of work for something that is of little consequence other than dealing with subwoofer settings. Your Maggies don't rolloff on top until they're beyond your hearing range - and they rolloff on the bottom about, what, 80Hz? Put a subwoofer on with a top-end rolloff of 100Hz and you've got the spectrum covered. Rolloff is simply the point, or gradual slope, at which speakers stop reproducing sound. Kegger is quite right - about the only way to hear it is to use an equalizer. When we talk of rolloff, we're just comparing speakers and how they produce a given frequency. Are you concerned about any particular rolloff problem? If so - I'm sure Kegger will step up to the plate and hit a home run for you. In closing (mercifully) yes, most of us read the manufacturer's spec sheets to determine rolloff. Or read speaker reviews in, say, Stereophile, where they use - and often print pictures of - their oscilloscope readings. Don't know if the Maggies ever got tested by Stereophile, but if so, you may see rolloff scope pics there. Hope it was helpful? Thanks again, Kegman. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 747 Registered: Oct-04 | SM - one other small point, please - in referring to Kegger's comment that I like to "roll off" my highs. Yep - in my room, and with many of my older CDs - I turn down the treble control several dbs. Diminishes the highs - doesn't kill them, though - and thus makes for a more balanced sound - for me. Can't see the difference, but surely can hear it. And on your sub or amp - if you read specs - you will see that there is a 24, 18 or 12 db-per-octave "rolloff." that means that the amp or sub essentially turns down the sound gradually, instead of simply cutting it off at, say, 80Hz. If my amp is set to 80Hz lo rolloff, and my sub set to 100 Hz hi-end rolloff - the amp turns down the sound, and the sub turns down its sound reproduction gradually - centered on that or those frequencies. Cross-fading, we'd call it in broadcasting. Hope that helps? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2285 Registered: Dec-03 | I had forgot to add another key factor in the eq that I have with the pink noise generator and the microphone is the "spectrum analyzer" on the unit so it can show you on it's screen what your measuring in 2db increments with a range of 10db + or - of flat. It starts at 20hz and goes to 16k with 20 bands. After testing many speakers and finding the right other gear and placement of the unit I feal pretty confident in it's ability to give a fairly accurate reading. Not on par with an osciloscope but still a nice tool for building speakers or testing other equipment. I find it excspecialy handy in designing or redesigning a crossover for a speaker! You not only hear the changes you are making but can see the results also after measuring. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 140 Registered: Jan-05 | A lot of work for something that is of little consequence other than dealing with subwoofer settings. Your Maggies don't rolloff on top until they're beyond your hearing range - and they rolloff on the bottom about, what, 80Hz? 52mhz, Larry. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 141 Registered: Jan-05 | Or, the specs say 52mhz, guess I'd have to get an oscillator to see the real rolloff. :-) Kegger and Larry, Thanks for your input. I'm at work right now but will read your postings tonight and will probably have some dumb questions to ask. The MR77 purchase is going down on Saturday morning. All items advertised on eBay have bids and will be selling. So, the savings account will be replenished, there'll be more space in the house and the audio life will keep getting simpler. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 748 Registered: Oct-04 | SM - very good! More anon. . . |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1515 Registered: Aug-04 | SM Okay, I have shown little respect on this forum for country music, and although country music is not my cup of tea, I do actually like some of the older recordings and artists - some of whom you and Larry mentioned. My teasing has been taken too seriously and for that I apologise, but please consider that I am not a classical music fan either and have been known to throw an insult or two (in fun) about that genre in this forum as well. As to not liking your recommendations - not so! Some, if not all, in fact, I have liked to some extent. I am a bit ped - er - fussy when buying music. If, say there are 10 tracks on a cd and if at least 7 or 8 don't do it for me, then I usually give the album a miss. At over $30.00 for a non top twenty recording I am usually 'picky' when buying music. Larry I am wid you, man on dis hip-hop and rap stuff. I am at the stage where I honestly believe that censorship and 'freedom of speech' should be revised - not only for music, but in the film industry and even in public arena also. If anyone thinks that the crap that is thrown in front of today's kids has no affect on our society, they are, IMHO, kidding themselves. But that's probably a gripe of mine that belongs elsewhere. Sem Yes, Mr Rea was one of my old favourites - still is in a way. I must reinvestigate his music. "God's Great Banana Skin" was another favorite among the half dozen or so recordings I have/had. "Soft Shoulder, Dangerous Curves" the guy knows metaphors. Sound like someone we know? LOL! Larry, How can you hate electric guitars? They cover all spectrums and can even be kind and gentle on older ears. Too much acoustic guitar can turn me off, yet I like it - hard to explain, really. LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2871 Registered: Dec-03 | "Any comments here, John?" Sorry. If I were Ghia I'd choose India. Exotic. Interesting. Never been there. There is an interesting-looking maker of tube amps and speakers in Pune, called "Cadence". I have left the family watching "Under the Tuscan Sun" (to me, boring) in DD 5.1 playing with centre "none"; sub "none". All I do is turn the computer-speaker surrounds to max then adjust the volume on the stereo amp to the mains to give a roughly equal perceived intensity of hiss from each channel when using the player's "test" function. With our current system an SPL meter would be fairly pointless. I agree it is a bit of a nuisance to have to adjust channel levels and speaker distances with an OSD. Probably an SPL meter can be useful in first setting up a system. Real discs vary so much in the balance between the different channels. An SPL meter in conjunction with a surround test disc which gives equal levels of amp input to each channels could be good. The real sub output is fairly arbitrary in the first place, though; getting the same SPL in dB from that as from the main or surround speakers would depend a lot on the crossover setting. One would not want necessarily to have equal SPL from the sub. Front and rear channels, yes. But there again, surround mixes on real discs vary so much all one can really decide on is whether one likes, or is convinced by, the end result. An SPL meter might be interesting to give a reference, but it seems to me it is a bit like a thermometer, which can tell you the temperature, but not whether you feel hot or cold. What's this "52mhz"? That "m" is surely a typo...? The Maggie low-frequency roll-off is probably in the region of 52 Hz. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2872 Registered: Dec-03 | Crossed post, MR, sorry. I would have thought the early Elvis could be classed as "country". No? As with every genre, it is how they do it. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 749 Registered: Oct-04 | My Rantz - you are correct, sir, in that electric guitar, played by accomplished (preferably jazz) musicians, and at a level below that of distortion, can be very good. However, I feel there is too much reliance on them in today's music overall. Sorta like what happened with the Hammond organs several decades ago. They sprouted like weeds - then suddenly the jazz scene turned its back on them, and they've been sent back to Gospel and "alternative" jazz. As for rap and H-H - all one has to do (if one can stand it) is to listen closely to the words, and you will surely be offended - soon. When so-called "entertainers" call for se xual mutilation of women and "offing" cops - sorry, this is one area where I (reluctantly) agree with the Christian Right - we could use a little censorship here! Whatever happened to manners, morals and decency? Sorry . . no more rantz from me. Sigh. John A. - surely SM tippy-typed one too many letters there. Donne it myyself, as you so well know! Hmmm. . .The dear lady is trying very hard to develop her "perfect" sound system, and as such wants info, info, info. Which y'all can give, give, give better than I can! (grin) don't know what the heck she's going to do when she spends three weeks in "Injah" - I mean, think of the kitties, and the Maggies! Double sigh. I can hear the "thip" of tears falling on parchment as she pens sad "miss you" notes from afar. . . Now, if the Raj were still in place, Ms. SM would face a far better environment abroad. Things change, but not always for the better. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 750 Registered: Oct-04 | Rantz: Harrumph, sir! "gentle on Older Ears?!?" I say, old chap, I shall be awaiting your presence at dawn - bottles of Guiness at 10 paces? Fair enough, I'd say, to preserve my honor, if not my hearing! (grin) PSSSST - the idea is to drink the Guiness, not throw it - but don't tell Larry I said so. Signed - the Old Phart Phantom. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1516 Registered: Aug-04 | Larry I include my own in the 'Older Ears' brigade, though they can still put up with some louder electric guitar riffs on occasion. LOL! I mean even God knows his way around the Fender! John A What sort of red-blooded English male are you: ""Under the Tuscan Sun" (to me, boring)" If Dianne Lane is starring in a movie,it doesn't matter about the movie. LOL! "I would have thought the early Elvis could be classed as "country". No?" No! |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 142 Registered: Jan-05 | What's this "52mhz"? That "m" is surely a typo...? The Maggie low-frequency roll-off is probably in the region of 52 Hz heheheh...d'uh....I guess that's the computer geek in me rearing it's ugly head. <sigh> |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 143 Registered: Jan-05 | "I would have thought the early Elvis could be classed as "country". No?" No! Yes! There are country influences in the music of early Elvis, Bob Dylan, Rolling Stones, The Band, CSN, Neil Young, Eagles, to name a few. Kuntry is Kool as long as you ain't no fool! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2286 Registered: Dec-03 | As far as country goes I've let it be known as not my taste in music but don't believe I've ever said that it's not music or anyone liking it has bad taste. I do though enjoy some of the older country gents as ms m has mentioned. "Johnny Cash, Hank Williams and others I'm sure" It's just most of the newer stuff that gets to twangy for me. There sure are some beautiful women in country though! As I don't generally like rap or hip hop but an ocasional 50cent tune or maybe a couple others but not much that's for sure. And I'm still trying to find classical I can get into but not much there either. Most any type rock or jazz I like and acoustical gutairs sound awsome to me. Most instruments in general I like the sound they make but it's how there used in ones music that can ruin it for me. I truly love a good sax but find good sax music tough to find. And yes I do mean sax as in the instruement and not the act even though the act is all good to but that's a whole new ballgame. Anyways I do appoligize for any misgudiedness on my part at dissing country! I believe anyone has a right to whatever music they like even if I don't. |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 223 Registered: Dec-03 | I challenge anyone to read the lyrics of "It Takes a Nation Millions to Hold Us back" or "Fear of a Black Planet" by Public Enemy. You will fond some examples of the most powerful lyrics written by any musician who has ever lived. It is sort of amusing to hear clueless-closed minded people try to categorize anything. Larry and Rantz I don't even think you have heard enough rap music to be able to pass any judgement whatsoever. It is even funner when I know that you listen to classical music, a lame genera that castrated young boys so they could keep their prepubescent voices. A lot of morality there, eh? |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 751 Registered: Oct-04 | Ben James - sir, I've listened to more rap "music" than you might imagine - even did reports on some of the worst of it. Pass judgement? Heck, anytime anybody calls for mutilating women's genitals or "offing" police officers - well, I don't have to add my personal views on that, sir! If you like it - go listen to it. Somewhere other than my home, please. As for the castrati - well, that short era was far less worse than the thousand years of torture and murder "in the name of Jesus" by many powerful Church leaders. It's all in the history books, you can look it up, sir. I've known many fine black musicians in my time, sir, and those with whom I shared music, food and wine felt the same way I do about rap - they thought it demeaning and rascist. But that's all IMHO, isn't it? And you,sir, are certainly free to listen - and to criticize those of us who consider rap an insult to many facets of society. Just allow us to answer in kind, sir. Respectfully. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 224 Registered: Dec-03 | Rantz, You are dead wrong, as usual. What do you think about Chuck D, Q-Tip, or Prince Paul? Which one of their respective songs offends you? Give me that lyric that is so awful... So you are offended by mutilating a woman, but it's ok to do that to a little boy. I think you are ripe for a trip to Neverland for some "Jesus Juice". |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 225 Registered: Dec-03 | Rantz, You are dead wrong, as usual. What do you think about Chuck D, Q-Tip, or Prince Paul? Which one of their respective songs offends you? Give me that lyric that is so awful... So you are offended by mutilating a woman, but it's ok to do that to a little boy. I think you are ripe for a trip to Neverland for some "Jesus Juice". |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1518 Registered: Aug-04 | Ben James Powerful lyrics? Any idiot can pen 'powerful lyrics' you'd find plenty on the toilet walls in prisons. Apart from the fact that the junk is not music, there are very few participants that show any decency or responsibility. Yes, there may even be some real musicians who can even understand what real music is that might be of the same ilk, but nothing on the scale of the degenerates in the hip-hop, rap (or whatever you call it) game. Why would we want to listen to any more than we have when all those are nothing but animals making inhuman sounds. I suppose you'd say Eminem is a nice lad? Eric, give me strength! |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 226 Registered: Dec-03 | Rantz, I am not sure you are qualified to judge what constitutes music. If your knowledge of hip hop is Enimem, then I rest my case. You are talking about something that you have no clue about. You are showing that you are a relic. I don't care for Enimem, but he can do his own thing and it won't bother me. He is somebody who provokes, much like Jim Morrison. I will repeat my question so you can fill me with all of your great knowledge. What do you think about Chuck D, Q-Tip, or Prince Paul? Which one of their respective songs offends you? Give me that lyric that is so awful... Have fun at Neverland |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Gentlemen, I don't believe government or "right thinking people's" censorship is a benefit to anyone. Might I suggest what is needed instead of censorship is responsibility. The music you find so offensive would not be on the market if there were not people willing to make a buck off ideas that offend so many. Those people could not make a buck if the ideas did not strike so many young minds as culturally important. And the ideas would not be culturally important to anyone if there were someone who took responsibility for teaching better values. If censorship were to be imposed on offensive lyrics, a large quantity of what are now considered blues classics would disappear from the catalog. One listen to Johnny Cash singing "Delia" would convince anyone the black culture has no lock on what might offend timid souls. Remember when Willie and Waylon were considered outlaws? Rock is full of references that would make a country preacher declare, "Rock and Roll has got to go!" Reggae is about the oppression of a people for generations. There would seem to be a fair amount of violence in most operas. A ban on Wagner, anyone? What is within the lyrics of most cultural music amount to the frustrations of a culture. Robert Johnson sang 32-20 Blues: "... if she gets unrully and thinks she don't wan'do Take my 32-20, now, and cut her half in two." Not the kindest of lyrics. Before anyone starts crying for censorship, I would suggest you listen to what has lead up to the present day music and decide what you would like to do without along with rap and hiphop. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Rolloff -- The rate at which a frequency response curve decreases in amplitude; usually stated in dB per octave or dB per decade. rolloff (also rollout) A frequency response which falls gradually above or below a certain frequency limit. By comparison, the term cutoff (often abbreviated to "cut," as in "bass cut") implies an abrupt loss of level above or below the frequency limit. Horn cutoff frequency -- A frequency below which an exponential horn will not function correctly because it fails to provide for proper expansion of the sound waves http://stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/1104totem/index3.html You'll want to look at figures 3 & 4. "Bass response was down only 3dB at 63Hz, and, at the other end, response rolled off very gently, beginning after 10kHz." In the last sentence the writer is saying the speaker had begun its roll off slightly above 63Hz. The speaker under review in this instance is a ported (specifically a reflex loaded) design. Most ported or vented speakers will have a bass roll off that is 24dB per octave. If the speaker begins its roll off at 70Hz, the -24dB point will be the octave beneath at 35Hz. If a speaker has bass response considered as flat response to 70Hz, the speaker's response amplitude will be diminished by 6dB at 61Hz, rolled off 12dB at 53Hz and finally -24dB at 35Hz. Usable bass response is typically considered to be limited to the -6dB roll off point in the most generous of reviews. Where the frequency roll off begins is often referred to as the gate or hinge frequency. In the quoted example the hinge frequency is probably about 68Hz. The low frequency hinge point of a speaker system is a balance between the driver choice and the enclosure type and volume. In rough terms this amounts to the "Q" of the speaker system. The balance is always between the three elements of bass extension, size and efficiency. When one is altered, the other two will also have to change. In fig.4 from the Stereophile measurements, you will see the roll off in the bass region begins about 100Hz. However, since the bass is slightly boosted in level at that point, when you look at the average level of the midrange frequencies, you could say the speaker's response does not begin its audible roll off until about 50-60Hz. From 50Hz the roll off is about the expected -24dB at 25Hz. What makes measurements difficult to accomplish at the low frequency end of the range is the room response that will add and subtract information below about 200Hz. Buying any type of measuring device that can display the roll off at the bass end is pricey and typically needs to take into account the room where the measurements are made. You can buy a test disc that includes a sweep tone from 20-20kHz and you will hear the "roll up" as the frequency increases. If you can find a disc with an additional sweep from 20kHz down to 20Hz you will get some sense of the roll off of a speaker. The problem of this type of test is still the additional components the room will add or subtract to the bass response of a speaker. Someone else more familiarity the unit can comment; but, if I remember correctly, the Radio Shack SPL meter states its accuracy will be significantly reduced below 500Hz. " ... response rolled off very gently, beginning after 10kHz." Here the high frequency response gradually diminished in amplitude as the frequencies rose above 10kHz. The 10kHz point is the hinge frequency for the roll off. There are not the same rules for high frequency roll off as there are for low frequency roll off. Where a ported enclosure will have a 24dB roll off in the bass, the tweeter's response will not usually be determined by enclosure type. Like a woofer, though, the tweeter will typically reach a point where the resonance of the driver is the limiting factor in the tweeter's extension. In fig. 4 you see what appears to be a large resonant spike in the tweeter's response above 20kHz and then the frequency response fall off rapidly. It's hard to tell exactly what is happening at that point as the test equipment may not extend its reach much past 22kHz. In fig.3 you see the roll off of frequency that is induced by the X-over components at about 2100Hz. Above 2100Hz you see the woofer's response roll off steeply as the higher frequencies are affected by the X-over's high pass/low pass filter action. The type of filter that is used for the X-over, along with the physical characteristics of the drivers, will determine how much roll off per octave will be affected. The roll off per octave of the low frequencies does not have to match the roll off of the high frequencies. Some designers will take the low frequencies out quickly before the woofer reaches its limits of clean reproduction. At the same time the speaker may have a X-over that allows the tweeter to enter gradually to make a smooth transition from one driver to the other. Or vice versa. A high pass filter allows frequencies higher that its hinge to pass. A low pass filter allows frequencies lower than its hinge to pass. A high pass filter will limit frequencies lower than its hinge and a low pass filter will limit frequencies higher than its hinge. If the X-over point is "centered" at 2100Hz, the frequencies above and below that frequency will gradually be diminished in amplitude, i.e., rolled off. A first order filter in the X-over will roll off at 6dB per octave above and below the center frequency. More complex filters; second, third, fourth order, will each roll off more steeply thereby limiting how much information is sent to each driver. With a X-over at 2100Hz the woofer will still be producing music at 3000Hz though the roll off has begun. In the same speaker system the tweeter will be producing music at 1500Hz but at a lower amplitude than the frequencies above 2100Hz. This is another example of the speaker "rolling up" to its X-over point. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1520 Registered: Aug-04 | Benny Boy "What do you think about Chuck D, Q-Tip, or Prince Paul? " I don't! But I sure do have an idea about you. I have a thought. Go down to the dingiest, darkest alley, find the biggest, meanest filthiest SOB and ask him if he'd mind knocking that chip off your shoulder. Of course you may have trouble picking him out from all the hip-hoppers. Jan, I used to think like you. These days you wouldn't walk with your mother past a few youths sitting on a side walk because you know the filth she is going to hear when you pass them by. Having it tuff is not an excuse. Maybe we should use all the expletives here after every second word if its okay. I believe there should be free speech so long as it's without the filth. The morality level keeps descending - how low can it keep going. Yes, responsibility if the key. I'll cry for censorship anytime nowdays. |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 227 Registered: Dec-03 | Rantz, ??? Didn't that happen in a Duracel commercial in the 80's. Why don't we ban that Shakespeare fellow from the schools why we are at it. Oh add JD Salinger, Lewis Carroll, Mozart, and Charlie Parker. After all they are all filthy. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1521 Registered: Aug-04 | I'm not saying everything should be banned. There needs to be a compromise for censorship between "in your face filth" (meaning movies, music and maybe the internet, and in public) and bad language, sex, sadism, violence etc in literature. Many creative people have the ability to use any of the above in their medium in an unoffensive manner. This is part of what seperated talent from the gutter. There are young people without the benefit of having one or two caring, decent parents to guide their upbringing. There are others with either one or two indecent, uncaring parents that couldn't give a hoot what their child did, watched, or participated in. Most of these kids grow up to be on yet another level down the morality scale. Many are desensitised and seemingly with soul. What do we do - throw more crap in their faces? I stated previously that this sort of discussion should really be for places other than an audio forum. What's eventuating is my reason for that so I shall refrain from more comment. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Here are some comments on the "LS3/5a effect" mentioned in the above post. I have also included some comments on the concept of a point source vs. a line source. I am not posting this to convince anyone I have wonderful speakers as I am aware of the strengths and weaknesses of a 35 year old design that has been well covered in the press. The 3/5a taught many designers and reviewers valuable lessons about speaker design and remains a reference for many later designs. It spawned a generation of mini-monitors which rose in ascendancy for the better part of a decade until Americans once again returned to behemoths and powered subwoofers to hear Dwayne Allman at ear shattering levels. "The response in the lower frequencies seems pretty much identical, though the design's intrinsic 160Hz hump is perhaps a smidgen better-controlled. (Note that the dip in the 250Hz region on both traces is due to destructive interference between the direct sound from the speaker and that reflected from the floor between the speaker and the measuring microphone.)" "In-room, the spatially averaged response (fig.2) holds few surprises: a lumpy upper bass, with no low bass to speak of; a basically smooth curve, tilted up in the top two octaves; the exact "subjective" curve, in fact, drawn back in 1976 by J. Gordon Holt on p.6 of Stereophile Vol.3 No.12. Measured in the woofer's nearfield, the -6dB point was a high 68Hz, the room reinforcing this only slightly to just above 50Hz. The degree of upper-bass boom means that the '3/5a must not be placed near the rear wall in an attempt to add bass weight. The result will be thick and muddy." "the BBC design still has one of the least colored midbands around, throws a deep, wide, beautifully defined stereo soundstage, and actually offers a lot of performance for what is now a relatively affordable price." "The soundstage presented by the Rogers was wide and deep, but, more important, absolutely stable with frequency (apart from a slight propensity for soprano voice to project forward in the mix). The image of a centrally placed voice, which on perfect speakers will have no width whatsoever ... " "It was the English writer Chris Rogers, I believe, who once referred to the '3/5a's as having a "boomy midrange" compared with a typical reflex design's boomy bass." "The problem is that the exaggerated upper bass of the design makes impossible to mate with a subwoofer--unless it were one specifically designed for this speaker" "these are a perfect way of getting sound that is comparable to that from Quad electrostatics, at far lower cost and with added bonuses of slightly smoother high end, better stereo imaging, a broader listening area, and considerably greater apparent (that is, audible) size. Their low-end output is, in most rooms, deeper and fuller than that of the Quads, but like the Quads, their major weaknesses are limited sound output and lack of extreme bottom." "The close proximity of room surfaces (or, worse yet, of a box or shelf under the speakers) also causes diffraction interference--the chopping of deep holes in the frequency response due to selective cancellation of certain frequencies. The smaller the speaker enclosure, the less audible are these diffraction effects and the smoother the system sounds. But nearby corners and surfaces can spoil the advantage of the small enclosure." "Another advantage of a small sound source (a point source*) is that it tends to radiate sound waves as expanding spheres rather than as a planar wave (as from large screens). Human ears react in a seemingly paradoxical manner to a spherical sound field: The reproduced sound seems, much bigger than its source, yet the angular localization of sounds across the "stage" between the speakers (ie, the imaging) is dramatically improved. In fact, the apparent audible size of these tiny speakers is almost laughable; we had the feeling that it just could not possibly be." "Adding to the illusion of a large speaker system, is the remarkable low-end performance, which is not really all that deep (subjectively flat to a bit below 57Hz in our rooms) but sounds deeper than it is because the response is actually pretty flat down to there (rather than drooping), and the bass detail is astonishing from 5" woofers. The speakers gave such a startling account of themselves at the low end that we were not acutely aware of the lack of deep bottom until deeper notes (as from bass drum or the bottom range of the string bass) that we knew were on the recording failed to come through." http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/361/index7.html The point source operation of small mini-monitors such as the 3/5a and Rick's Spendors is very much the same as the operation of John's Quads though it is accomplished in a very different fashion in the panel vs. the box speakers. The "3/5a effect" is often mentioned when a speaker (particularly a small box) has a slightly rising midbass. When a speaker is unable to reproduce the low frequency content it is fed, it will instead reproduce the next higher octave with slightly greater amplitude which is called doubling in a speaker. With the slight rise built into the frequency response of the 3/5a, the ear will assume the bass is lower than the actual frequency reproduced. This use of the Doppler Effect to fool the ear into hearing a lower frequency by way of increased volume is a trick that has been used by companies such as JBL for decades. I will say, in my opinion, the 3/5a pulls off this trick with much more finesse than most competitors. Being a sealed box with a 12dB per octave roll off in the bass also helps the cause. If you have not heard the benefits of a true mini-monitor, you might want to try to hear a pair of speakers such as Rick's Spendors. A good design really does defy most logic of speaker size. Beware of the mid bass bump in some designs which will make mating the speaker to a powered subwoofer a very contentious match. If you're not absolutely bored with the subject of the 3/5a and its prowess, there is more information about the design at this site: http://www.ls35a.com/ |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | "What do we do - throw more crap in their faces?" Well, that does seem to be the choice our society has made. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 752 Registered: Oct-04 | Well, it's all about class and evolution. Amerika is losing its class. Quickly. Evolution is partly responsible. How many Oriental violinists are there on the concert stages today? Many. How many black violinists are there? Count them, please. How many "basic white Amerikans" are there going to concerts? Count them. How many Europeans are there going to concerts? Count them. Partly evolutionary - partly cultural. Chinese and other Orientals have thousands of years of evolutionary progress in various tone-scapes and scales. Americans have a few hundred years - basically as a result of European evolution where several hundred years of progress may - or may not - have survived cross-Atlantic migration. Blacks have several hundred years of evolution since they were plucked from the shores of Africa, leaving basic rhythms and melodies behind, or trying to bring them here, and assimilate them into Amerikan culture. Result? Jazz, Gospel and such things as hip-hop. All basic jungle-based rhythms - the result of thousands of years of evolution in their world. All different - each individualistic. But each on a different cultural and evolutionary scale. so - we have a clash of cultures - and evolution. All different - none the same. My Rantz and I share a common plea for decency and honesty in lyrics - some others may find that our standards are outside of their evolutionary scope. So be it. I shall not further this argument on open forum. If Mr. James or anyone else cares to engage in name-calling - please do so with private e-mail messages. This forum is an important, open expression of opinions - but things too quickly boil down to gut-level attacks, which I do not wish to participate in further. So - that's it for me regarding hip-hop and rap. Any further response from me will require a private message. Period. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 916 Registered: Dec-03 | Excellent 3/5a post Jan. I think you hit it right on the head, with the term "true mini monitor". All too often poor quality small speakers are referred to as mini monitors. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 144 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, Thanks for the information. In looking at the specs of the reviewed Totem speaker against the graphs showing the rolloff, am I correct in saying the published response in the specs mostly takes into account the rolloff? So, if the MMG frequency response is 50hz, the rolloff will start at some point above that? If that's the case, then I would probably want to set my sub at some point above 50hz, right? Integrating the sub, is my main concern in regards to trying to understand the rolloff. Thanks, again. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 145 Registered: Jan-05 | To clarify my post above, the Totem low end frequency was stated as 42hz. The graphs show the rolloff beginning around 100hz but you indicated the audible rolloff probably start at 50-60hz. So does that mean the published spec of 42hz accounts for some of the rolloff? |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 146 Registered: Jan-05 | BTW, after 2 weeks, the cats haven't bothered the maggies at all. Yay! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 753 Registered: Oct-04 | SM - do the Maggies, per chance, have wool covers? Probably not - but if so, the cats would be attracted to them. Bet they're nylon or the like. I've got my M-S sub set with a top end of 80Hz, and have set the NAD to roll off at that low end, as well. With the slope of some 18 db/octave, they meet seamlessly - and a half-octave above the B&Ws low-end rolloff. So far, the sound with this set-up is really really fine! I think Jan et al were right in "urging" me downward from my earlier 100Hz crossover point. Don't know your sub and amp settings, but I'd think a crossover point of 80Hz would be good. Jan V. - you got input here? Maybe you're of a mind that 50Hz would be better? If so, please explain to the ole duffer. . . MOre anon. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 754 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan V. - I've always thought Wagner should be banned - or at least SEVERELY edited! Too many damned notes, sir! with attitude to match. . . |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Wagner banned, now there's an idea. With my feelings toward Mr. W., of ubermarionette fame, I shall not go there. SM - When a speaker manufacturer states a frequency response within + or - X dB, they are saying over the entire frequency response of the speaker there is no more than X dB of variation from a center point. If, as in the case of the Totem, the response is quoted as + or - 3dB, you can have a spread of up to 6dB from that average center. Somewhat like taking a poll that shows a result with a margin of error of a certain percentage. More often than not the area where the broadest range of flat frequency response will occur will be in the midrange. Looking then at the 42Hz point against the average of the mids, the Totem is within its bounds of specification. One problem still with speaker specifications is whether the speakers are measured in a specific location. In room response will typically give a bit more bottom end response than free field response due to the reinforcement of the room. Here's a comment from the 3/5a remarks; "Measured in the woofer's nearfield, the -6dB point was a high 68Hz, the room reinforcing this only slightly to just above 50Hz." You can generally count on a reputable manufacturer stating fairly what they feel their speaker is capable of doing. But I have always maintained the only relevant speaker specifications are the H/W/L and the weight. What the MMG's claim is a + or - 3dB down to 50Hz; so the roll off has already begun by 50Hz. As I said most people consider bass response usable down to a -6dB point. Since the MMG's are an open baffle type design their roll off will be about 24dB per octave. All this assumes a typical room. From having heard the MG 1.6's, I would say Magnepan is claiming a typical in room response and your speakers will be running our of steam by 40-45Hz. That's not what I consider bad response by any means. As you can see, the amount of information below 45Hz is somewhat limited. http://psbspeakers.com/FrequenciesOfMusic.html What many people feel is more important than how deep a speaker can go, is how well a speaker goes to its limit. The acoustic doubling I spoke of will often be more convincing when done well than real bass response that is done poorly. With clients I likened this to a car with good handling that wasn't all that quick against a car with lots of horsepower but poor handling. Personally, I always found the handling more important, and more entertaining, than the straight ahead only speed. To get state of the art at both is possible but expensive. When it comes to setting a subwoofer, once again I tend to do other than the recommended procedure. I see a subwoofer as a way to augment the bass response my speakers have, not to replace the speaker's bass. To allow this I let my main speakers run full range and bring the sub in just beneath where they begin to run out of steam. This assumes a desirable bass response out of the main speakers. I fully understand the idea of taking the strain and stress off the woofer at a higher frequency; but I prefer to let my main speakers go as low as they can since I don't push my system as hard as some people do. Also I personally don't do big woofers in my main speakers and I find it more obvious when a large woofer is taking over from a small, fast driver. The speed and tonality of the two drivers is seldom a match for my ears. A fairly general statement would be the faster the main speaker, the more dificult it will be to match to a large dynamic woofer. That is one reason many ESL fans do not care for the typical Martin Logan sound. ML has traditionally mated a dynamic woofer with their ESL panels and the blend has always been problematic for some people. With that in mind, I can only tell you I can't tell you how to set your subwoofer up. It is taste as with most other things in your system. I would use the music I listen to and not have a sub for a few weeks. After I'd gotten used to the sound of the MMG's by themself, I would add the sub at the lowest X-over point and lowest amplitude I could use. With the volume set to just audible, I would raise the X-over point until you are convinced you have not damaged the bass response of the MMG's. Play several recordings of different styles before proceeding. At that point back off a notch and raise the gain on the sub slightly until you feel it begins to intrude on the main speaker's quality. The sub should merely provide a foundation for the main speakers not compete with them. Back off a notch on the gain and listen for a while longer before making any further changes. If there is a special recording you want to let fly with rolling bass, you can always crank up the controls for that recording. Others may have different recommendations on how they set their sub. No offense meant to anyone, but I find using a meter to set up a sub is as futile as using a test disc. Use music, it's what you listen to. Can I assume you either know how to place the sub in your room or the placement is not negotiable? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | My last response on the hiphop issue. Everyone should be proud of where they stand on the evolutionary chain. Whether the issue is physical, spiritual, mental or ideological evolution, it requires an immense effort to move from your present location. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | "All too often poor quality small speakers are referred to as mini monitors." The information was posted mostly as just information. I think it is easier to understand what you are buying when you begin to understand what you are being sold. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 147 Registered: Jan-05 | Thanks, Jan. I believe I share your philosophy regarding the augmentation of the main speakers low end. That's how I've tuned the sub since I've had it. Did this with the B&W, MA, & Spendors. So far, the sub has not been on with the maggies and I don't feel like I'm missing out on much. With the exception of that one part of Mahler 5, I haven't noticed any holes in the low or mids. Maybe I'll change my mind once I get the sub running and starting tuning it. I don't think I'll connect the sub until I get the Mapleshade speaker wire. Because my bookcase masquerading as an audio cabinet makes switching cables a pain, I want to connect the HD, Mapleshade and basic speaker wire in one session. Jan, you'll be happy to hear I'm going to get some ProGold to clean the Mac's connections. Anyway, by the time this happens, I think I'll have at least 3 weeks of listening on them and should get a good idea of the dynamics the sub brings to the table. The sub is currently in the left corner of the room. When the maggies are in the listening position, the sub is probably 3ft behind the left speaker. The sub is against the wall. According to the REL sub, this is ok due to the level of adjustments available. Once my furniture rearrangement takes place, I may be able to try the sub in other spots along the same wall it currently inhabits. <sigh> I love my maggies. If I ever find a man half as good as these $550 speakers, I'll marry him. p.s. Picking up the MR77 tomorrow morning. Looking forward to getting a little Mac radio going in the system. p.p.s The Mercury Living Presence recording of Janis and MSO performing "Pictures at an Exhibition" is outstanding! I had only listened to part of it before but listened to the entire disk with both performances last night and again tonight. Excellent! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 755 Registered: Oct-04 | SM - let's see now - you're looking for a man about four feet tall, very thin, with a one-suit wardrobe, small feet, and the ability to constantly shake or vibrate all over his body. Hmmm - that's going to be an interesting chap! (double grin) PS - I doubt that you will ever find one of "us" who is even half as good as the Maggies - so don't bother wearing yourself out in trying! (grin) Get another cat? Yep. . . Looking forward to your reaction to the Mapleshade wire. One of the brands which Mer and I did not have a chance to audition. If you hear a major difference, I may have to give it a try, although I'm still a wire-skeptic. So glad you liked Jan V's CDs. Now you know what he's been crowing about with his Mercury comments. Outstanding? You bet. . . showing the care and pride of some long-gone people whose legacy lives on - fortunately! Jan performed a valuable service in sharing his passion with you! Welcome to the wonderful world of Classical - we hope you stick around! John A. - You'll be happy to know, sir, that I will soon have another DVD-A to add to my collection. (Gasp!) Won it on one of those Internet Audio site drawings. Beethoven's 6th and Respighi's Pines of Rome. Will let all know what I think of the DVD-A's sonics, etc. - If/when I get the disc! I read with interest about the European settlement of "dual disc" thickness parameters and copyright battles. So - it's taking off, and I'll watch closely to see which format survives - SACD or DVD-A dual disc. I really do see this as another Beta-VHS battle. Comments? Still in major CD-withdrawal - and sinking. Hope for a Yammie-return by mid-week? Sigh. Listening on the computer's Cambridge Soundworks speakers is OK - but - well, you know. . . Sleep may finally come - so - more anon. . . |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 148 Registered: Jan-05 | Larry, LOL! That's a funny image! And, no more cats! I have more than enough to last me for awhile. You and Mer, on the other hand, need to head on to a shelter and find an adoptee. I've yet to find a Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo recording that I don't like. Of course, I've only heard what Jan generously sent. Not only are the recordings excellent but the performances come through in these recordings that really set them apart from some other classical recordings I do have. A couple of them, including the Janis/MSO, I've searched for on SACD. The Janis/MSO doesn't appear to be available on SACD yet. Larry, you could hook your computer to the stereo. Just get a cable that has an end (3.5mm?) that will fit in the computer's speaker outlet and the other end with a set of RCA connecters and let it rip. Of course, you'd have to temporarily move your computer but what's a little inconvenience if you can listen to your cd's through real equipment? It will also give you an idea of the DAC capabilities of your computer. I think you'll find that you can hear the digital "artifacts" compared to the better quality Yamaha equipment. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 149 Registered: Jan-05 | Sorry, Larry, I forgot to finish my previous post. In my office, I have my Mac Mini hooked up as described. It works great. I haven't really done any testing with it because when it is playing, it is not playing full fidelity files. It plays the 320kbps AAC files I ripped last year. I know this is not optimal sonically but, for the casual listening I do in the office, it is just fine. The 320kbps AAC files were a nice balance between acceptable sound quality and file size. I didn't have enough disk space (even with an external 120gb drive) to rip the cd's as AIFF files. If I want to hear the full sonics of a CD, I do have the NAD c541i in the office too. However, I'm thinking of moving the c541i to the living room for a redbook showdown with the Denon. There was a mini-showdown last fall between the two. But, I didn't have the maggies then! It will be interesting to see if the maggies reveal different personalities between the two. In the last showdown, there didn't seem to be much discernible difference and, as a result, I kept only the Denon in the living room to streamline and simplify. Well, I'm off to fix some breakfast. Channeling some of Larry's spirit, I'll fix an omelet with spinach and gruyere cheese, lightly seasoned with salt and freshly ground mixed peppercorns. Then, I'm off to shower and then I'm off to pick up the MR77 and a 40lb box of cat litter. ;-) |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 756 Registered: Oct-04 | SM et al - G-day to y'all. Furst tings furst. I could use the computer to play discs thru the stereo - but - the player unit in the computer itself isn't very good. I have a separate CD burner (a TDK) that I use to play the discs - MUCH better sound! Hauling both into the living room makes little sense - so I "slop along" with the Cambridge SoundWorks. Actually, they put out amazing sound for their size and price tag. Wow - spinach and gruyere omelette. Should have read that before I made my morning edibles. Sigh. Might have copy-catted you, SM! And I'm SO glad you grind your own pepper. Pre-ground is flat and "ugly" by comparison, doncha think?? Don't know where you're looking for discs, SM, but I always urge Amazon, ArkivMusic and Acoustic Sounds. Have "wish lists" on Amazon and A-C, waiting for when I have some money! No Janis/MSO on SACD - but may I humbly steer you to one of the wunnerful Living Stereo reissues on RCA? "Pictures" with Reiner and the Chicago Symphony Orch - and the sound, while slightly "different" than that on Mercury, is stunning. IMHO, of course! Not trying to compete with Jan V. and his beloved Mercury discs - but a performance worthy of your listening. Audition it on Amazon - will give you a "taste" of it. I still hope that you will have a little fun and get Saint-Saens' "Carnival of the Animals." At least look it up on Amazon, and you can audition the various tracks. It was written in the late 1800s for Saint-Saens' friends - and he wouldn't let anybody perform it in public - he died in 1921, and it was first performed the next year - and has been one of my all-time favorite depression-busters!!! Yep. . . Good luck with the tuner - Macs are still drool-dreams for me, and a lot of other people! More anon. . . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2876 Registered: Dec-03 | Brief comments to many things here are required but impossible. Thanks for all comments aimed at me. I nearly ordered a Mac mini last week, for work, SM; please let me know how you got on. I went for an eMac because it was cheap and the machine only has to do mundane work in a lab. Again, if disc space is an issue, choose Apple lossless which packs CD-res files into a smaller space without compromising resolution. Re point sources - generous posts, and correct, as far as I can see, Jan. Though I hardly feel qualified to comment. One little anecdote. On first hearing the Quad ESLs, apart from needing a drink, Mrs A commented that the amazing sound must be because it is radiating from large panels, approx 6 sq. ft. per speaker. She thought a bit, and said something like "No; that can't be it - the instruments and voices are coming from distances which you can resolve and appear to be less than the dimensions of the speakers themselves". I congratulated her on the perceptive analysis (it is!), and explained the principle on which Quad ESLs work, and that the virtual "point source" was about 30 cm behind each panel. Unfortunately that met with the "cow watching a passing train" facial expression, as Rick so beautifully put it a while ago. Re censorship and the evolution of music, I disagree with both Larry and Ben. There is currently a performance of Bernstein's "On the Town" in London, with Willard White. Brilliant, articulate guy, whose voice sends middle class English ladies swooning with desire. And that's just when he speaks. And find a soprano in the same scale as Jessye Norman. Just forget the stereotypes and judge people by what they do. It's the only way. Re political censorship, I don't know of you guys know, but an "anti-terrorism" Bill had just be passed, with a time-limitation concession, in the Brit Parliament. It is a macabre joke. Fortunately, it expires in September. As one critic put it, since voting against was "Aiding and abetting" terrorism; why not place those who vote against under house arrest? The logic is perfect. Why does no-one seem to learn from history? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Because they want to believe it's the other guy who is doing the reliving. That might just fall under the umbrella of EGO. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 759 Registered: Oct-04 | John A. - "re censorship and the evolution of music.. ." Huh? That paragraph makes no sense to me whatsoever, sir. If you're trying to say there are some talented black folk. Yep. Always have been. And Asians. And even Frenchmen! So? One steer doesn't make a stampede. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 760 Registered: Oct-04 | John A. - lest some people misunderstand my postings: I have never said that black people are untalented. Jessye Norman is a good example. Never heard of Willard White - sorry. My initial criticisms were aimed at a particular "art" form - not a race of people. And let me quote you to reinforce it - you penned: "Judge people by what they do." Exactly my point. I consider rap and hi-hop bottom-of-the barrel on the culture scale - and those who perform them I consider the same. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | "I have never said that black people are untalented." Gosh, Larry, have you noticed how Blacks can dance and play basketball? Remember who wrote this? "Do you know how loud a finger-snap is? Hmmm. . . " |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1523 Registered: Aug-04 | Er - Hannibal Lecter? |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 761 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan V. - claws in - breathe - lithium. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 918 Registered: Dec-03 | Dr. Hannibal Lecter, psychiatrist, philosopher, culinary artist and gentleman extraordinare. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | SNAP Oh, boy?! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Coincidence? You decide ... 1935: The trial of prolific child murderer and incorrigible sexu@l deviate Albert Fish begins for murdering and eating 10-yr. old Grace Budd; he will be convicted and executed, White Plains, New York. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | 1954: U.S. Army charges Sen. Joseph McCarthy and his counsel, Roy Cohn, with using threats in trying to get preferred treatment for Private G. David Schine. Robert Kennedy has left his staff by this time. McCarthy and Cohn's witch hunting days are about to end. 1959: Lorraine Hansberry's A Raisin in the Sun opens, transforming American theater. 1965: Almost 100 civil-rights activists picket the White House, demanding support for equal rights in Alabama. The protest culminates as a dozen picketers march into the presidential mansion and begin a sit-in. After six hours, police arrest the demonstrators. In Selma, Alabama, more than a thousand protesters have gone to jail, state police have beaten to death an African American youth, white hoodlums have killed a Boston minister, the Ku Klux Klan has murdered a Detroit housewife, and state trooper attacks have sent more than 50 peaceful marchers to the hospital. 1966: Timothy Leary sentenced in Texas to 30 years in prison for trying to cross into Mexico as a tourist with a small amount of mari-ju-ana; Leary appeals and gives press interviews. 1985: Mikhail Gorbachev takes office. 1988: Beginning of ten days of direct actions at Nevada Test Site which result in over 2,200 arrests, the largest number of arrests at a political protest outside Washington, D.C. in U.S. history. The event is almost completely ignored by mainstream media. 2001: Zapatista rebels complete two week nonviolent march to meet peace commission, Mexico City. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 919 Registered: Dec-03 | .....Let's just say he was misunderstood, and had a couple of bad days........................LOL! |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 150 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, why should I not use pin connectors to connect the speaker+sub wire to the Mac? It seems like a reasonable solution for the thick wire vs. spring clip dilemma so I'm curious why you are against it. Here's another dumb question. How do the main speakers know that the subwoofer will handle certain frequencies? So, if I set my sub's crossover to 60hz and both the sub/speaker wires are receiving from the same amp outputs how does the speaker know not to handle anything below 60hz? It makes sense to me in a multichannel environment where you are setting crossovers at the source or on an a/v amp but, if you are using a stereo amp and don't have crossovers to set, it strikes me as voodoo. Does the sub's crossover cut/filter the signal to the speakers? If so, how does it manage to do that since it seems to me the crossover is physically farther away from the feed to the speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1524 Registered: Aug-04 | SM Unlike using the sub output on a receiver, with your stereo amp would you not connect your speakers to the terminals on the sub and then from the sub to your speakers. That way you adjust the crossover on the sub which will determine the lowest frequency for your speakers. I'm sure Jan will correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1525 Registered: Aug-04 | SM Correction! Should be: would you not connect your speaker's cable to the terminals on the sub and then from the sub to your speakers? |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 151 Registered: Jan-05 | MR, Thanks for the response. The REL manual states: The unbalanced input at high level is designed to accept the stereo signals from the speaker terminals of your power amplifier. This has the advantage of ensuring that your subwoofer receives exactly the same signal as the main speakers, which means that teh character of the bass from the main system is carried forward into the sub-bass." I take this to mean they share the speaker terminal on the amp. Additionally, the sub doesn't have speaker terminals on the back of it. Instead, it uses a Neutrik connector on the sub end, with bare wires on the amp end. There is also a low-level input which could be used to connect to a subwoofer or pre-amp connection on the amp. The manual goes on to say that both the high and low level inputs can be connected simultaneously - the high level would be for 2ch and the low would be for MC. It also says: The high level connection method is the preferred way where the highest possible sound quality is demanded. Remember, even when connected at high level, the REL is still used as an active subwoofer. So, I think the connection is correct. Just trying to understand better how the crossover actually cuts/filters the signal to the main speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1526 Registered: Aug-04 | SM I'm sorry, but if your sub doesn't have a speaker input and output terminals (speaker level connections) for the signal to pass through the high pass filter then I am not acquainted with your type of sub. Also I am not familiar with a Neutrik connector. Line level connection is the RCA to RCA to the sub or pre-amp as you stated. Also, the speaker level connections on my sub only allow a set crossover (80hz) and not variable as I previously indicated. Sorry I can't be more help - maybe Jan or someone else who knows may chime in soon. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 152 Registered: Jan-05 | Thanks, MR. Below is a picture of a Neutrik connector. I pulled this off Parts Express' site. The other end of the cable contains 3 bare wire leads and I usually twist each of them together with the respective speaker wires according to the manual instructions. The sub is highly configurable from 22-95hz and there are separate controls for high and low. I guess from my original question, I'm trying to understand how what I set on my sub affects my main speakers. Maybe someone will be able to explain it. Can you tell I'm entering the tweaking stage of my audio setup? lol  |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | http://www.audaud.com/audaud/OCT01/EQUIP/equip3OCT01.html " ... the Rel allows main speakers to use all of their range, and allows careful adjustment of the crossover, phase, and level of the subwoofer. Also, the crossover is defeatable for use with a dedicated subwoofer output or LFE channel from a separate component piece. And lastly, by having two different inputs for music and movies (although they are really just line and high level inputs), the Rel offers different levels depending on program content." I'm going to have to tell you I'm guessing a bit on this one since I don't know exactly what Rel does with their subs. Here's how I read the information I've found. (And I wish Rel had put a good picture of the back of the sub on their web site.) If you are using the Rel sub with a two channel system where you do not have a dedicated LFE output, you are going to run the main amp speaker outputs to the high level inputs on the Rel. The Neutrix connector/cable tells you what cable to run to R and L speaker outputs. If you can't find the information, it is on their web site. In the high level hook up, the Rel does not appear to offer a high pass filter as most active subs provide. It would appear the Rel allows the main speakers to operate full range and does not filter any low bass from the main speakers. This is similar to how I have suggested setting the system up to let the main speaker provide all the bass content it has. The Rel is then used as an augmentation to the low bass of the main speakers. The only X-over you are provided at the high level inputs would be a low pass filter to keep higher bass frequencies out of the sub. The only combined high pass/low pass function is when you connect the sub to a processor that provides the function at line level. If I am correct on this assumption, I would put the subwoofer feed out of another speaker connector from the main speakers so you could switch the sub out of the circuit when you are not playing music that requires deep bass. This connection will amount to the total impedance of the speakers and sub just as it would if you fed the sub from a parallel connection with the speakers (which, of course, Speaker 1 and Speaker 2 are). If you feel the pins are more convenient to use, then you should make the connection with pins. The problem I have with pins is the amount of contact area between the pin and the speaker connector. The preference is to have as much contact area betwen the cable and the conector as possible. There is no more than a tangential point where the hard metal from the speaker clip touches the hard metal from the pin. If you remember the discussion about using ball bearings as an isolation device, the logic behind that is the only point of contact between two hard surfaces will be a small tangential area. The same applies to pin connectors. A bare wire connection is always the best route because you will have more contact area between the connector and the cable with no intervening breaks in the connection. When made properly, the speaker clips can be a gas tight connection that will not allow oxidation of the cable inside the connector. With thick cables, it becomes difficult to make that type of connection. If you can accommodate the bare wires easily enough, I would still say that is a better connection than a pin. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1527 Registered: Aug-04 | SM From your description, other than using the line level connection for the sub, then I don't think there is filter to provide a crossover. It seems to me (and I certainly may be wrong - again) that the sub just receives the same low signals as the woofers in your speakers though allowing lower registers to be heard, but without saving any stress on your speakers. In other words, your speakers will still operate to their lowest frequency with the sub filling in those lower. That's the way I read it. John A More compelling evidence that you acquire either a sacd player or a full universal player (grin) http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/review.asp?reviewnumber=15162867 |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1528 Registered: Aug-04 | Thanks for pic SM - now I know what a Neutrik connector is. They look like they connect directly to a power plant. LOL! |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 153 Registered: Jan-05 | JohnA, The Mac Mini is great! I bought it and a 20" cinema display and I love both. If you already have a monitor to use, the Mac Mini is a great value. I did add more memory to the base configuration. It's speedier than my Powerbook but obviously is not the most robust Mac one could get. But, for the money, the performance is very good and the software is outstanding. The cinema display is incredible. My Powerbook is only the 12" model so the cinema display makes a huge difference in being able to work more efficiently and it's easier on the old eyes. If you want to get an idea of how small it is, stack 5 cd's and you'll get the exact height. It is approximately 1" wider than the stack of cd's. Here's a pic (note: the computer wasn't the focus of these pics - <smile> - so you'll get to meet Josie and Athena (and Mr. Dual is lurking in the background, can you spot him, Jan?):   |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | SM- Am I correct that the Neutrix connector only has cables that run from the amplifier to the sub? Are there any other cables that would feed to the speakers from the connection at the sub? An alternative, that would appear in this case to accomplish the same result, would be to use a splitter (Y connector) at the pre amp outputs. This would run line level connections to the sub. There would still be no action taken to the main speakers, but this might provide a better solution to cabling to the sub. Are you satisfied with the quality of cable Rel has provided in the Neutrix connector to run from the speaker outs to the sub? This connection would also eliminate the conversion from speaker level back to line level at the sub input. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 154 Registered: Jan-05 | Looks like I crossed posts with Jan and MR. MR, I had not seen a Neutrik connector before getting the REL sub. It's quite convenient. Wish all speakers connected this way. So, what you and Jan are saying about there not being a high pass filter may explain why I was so confused about this. It makes sense now that this is how this sub works differently than others and would also explain why I experience boominess if the sub's rolloff is set too high into the speaker's range. This is why Larry's urging for me to set the sub higher didn't translate to the success he's had. Jan, I'm familiar with how to connect the bare wires. But, I was wondering if I could put the sub into a different speaker output on the Mac and, from the info you provided, it sounds like it should be ok to do that. I will try that. The spring clips can barely accommodate a 14ga wire. With the regular speaker wire, I could get both the sub+speaker wire squeezed into the clip. But, with the HD wire, I cannot both into the clip, concurrently. Thanks, guys. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 155 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, Crossed posts again. Right, the Neutrik is the only option to connect to the speaker terminals. The only other input is the LFE that can connect to the preamp out. I like the Neutrik cable. The actual bare wire strands are pretty thin but I don't know if that is an issue. I'll make some pics of it and the back of the sub and post in a few minutes. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 156 Registered: Jan-05 | Here is a shot of the bare end of the Neutrik cable. I put it beside a 14ga speaker wire so you can get some perspective on the size of the leads. The back of the sub shows all the tuning and inputs. The "Mode" selector is the phase and filter bypass. Setting it to 1 means "Line 0" so low level signals would go to the filtering. It can also be set to Line 180, LFE 0, LFE 180. There are volume levels for both hi and low levels. The second row has the rolloff adjustment with both coarse and fine tuning. Currently, it is set to C4 which is 53hz. This setting was tuned to the Spendors which had a freq response of 52hz at the low end. Below the rolloff settings are the LFE inputs and the High level input is under those. I plug the Neutrik into the Hi Level input.   |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1529 Registered: Aug-04 | SM That set up should be fine even without a crossover, which, as I believe JV agrees, isn't a bad thing especially if you don't drive your speakers with the pedal to the floor (like you probably do with the Cabriolet). From all the info I have read the REL's have an excellent name in sub's - it seems, though not everything has worked as well as you'd wished, your taste in audio is up to its usual high standard. Though from the pic it does seem that the REL would put out some pretty dark bass. [grin] I remain gobsmacked by the 602's and am feeling the urge to upgrade the JBL's to 604's. Unfortunately that will have to remain my little secret from Mrs Rantz for the time being as the 604's are too expensive here - over three times the price of the 602's. Ridiculous, but tempting all the same. Of course there are the 603's but I know I'd fall into the same trap as I almost did with the 601's: be sorry I didn't go the next step. Anyway these JBL's aren't so hard to live with - which Mrs Rantz would be sure to remind me if I mentioned what was on my mind. LOL! |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 157 Registered: Jan-05 | Hey MR, Glad to hear the 602's have done it for you....put the upgrade bugaboo in your mind. :-) Shhhh....I won't tell. Let us know when you get the 604's. Ironically, the REL and the Denon are the only pieces left from the original surround system. Speaking of the Denon, the redbook showdown took place today along with a comparison of interconnects and a comparison of speaker wire. Here are my thoughts: NAD c541i vs Denon DVD2200 The maggies revealed slightly different personalities. The NAD was a little more lively and punchy but the Denon seemed slightly more musical. Strange. It was not the outcome I expected. They both sound great and I couldn't decide which I liked best. So, in the interest of keeping things simple, the NAD did not earn a spot in the living room. If there had been a greater difference, I would have used the Denon for hi-res and NAD for redbook. Interconnect Showdown Kimber Kable vs Dayton Audio Cable Kimber noticeably smoother without losing detail. But, not as noticeable on all recordings. Improvement most noticeable on Allison Brown, Josh Rouse, Jack Johnson and Ozomatli. Less noticeable on Aimee Mann and Chet Baker. Price: I paid $125 for the Kimber Kable 3 years ago when I got my first NAD equipment. Despite the increased smoothness, not sure if it is worth paying nearly 10 times the price of the Dayton Audio. Musiclink Plus vs Dayton Audio Cable No discernible difference! You can get a used Musiclink Plus cable on Audiogon for $215 or you can go to Parts Express and get the Dayton Audio cable for $12. The Musiclink I have was thrown in as part of the MR77 deal. I also compared the Kimber vs the Musiclink and they seemed closely matched. The smoothness of the Kimber from the first test seemed less obvious this time around. Overall impression: The Kimber has a slight edge. But, the Dayton cable was so close to both and so much cheaper, I don't think I could justify buying either of the other two if this had been a pre-sale audition. Speaker Wire Showdown Home Depot 14ga electrical cord vs Sound King 14ga speaker wire. Price: Home Depot 25 ft extension cord. $16.35 Cut off ends, cut in half, stripped ends to bare wire. Sound King (.35/ft) - 25 ft. = $8.75 Notes: The copper strands in the HD cable are much thicker and stiffer than the copper strands in the Sound King. So, despite being the same gauge, the HD wire is a much tighter fit in the amp's spring clips. Unlike the interconnect test in which the 3 cables were closely matched in performance, this one was no contest. The HD cable rocks. Earlier in the week, when I first connected the HD cable, I thought there was a difference but, that night, I had only listened with the HD cable connected and wasn't completely sure. Now, I am sure. There is a very noticeable improvement with the HD wire vs the regular speaker wire. There's more punch in the low end, more separation or "air" around the instruments, better tonal balance and richer sounding voices - actually, richer sound overall. I think I could easily stick with the HD as the main speaker cable. Definitely, it is well worth paying double the price for the Sound King. I do intend to get the Mapleshade cable to give it a try. But, at more than 5 times the cost of the HD, it will have to be really special to become a keeper. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | SM - I don't know if you want to change anything on the 6200, but you can remove the speaker connecting clips from the amp and install five way binding posts in their place. This is easily an option for the main set of outputs and the other two can remain clips if you prefer. Depending on the post you choose, the swap usually requires expanding the holes through the back of the chassis just a bit and then a good 40 watt soldering iron and a heatsink. With a binding post in place, you can accommodate most cables with spade lugs or bare wire. I haven't checked but you may also be able to fit a more conventional terminal/barrier strip connector to the amplifier with less changing of the chassis itself. A terminal strip would also accept spades or bare wire. If you're interested in making this switch, I'll check to see what is possible. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1530 Registered: Aug-04 | SM Regardless of the test outcome for interconnects and cables, you've proved to yourself they can make a difference. Good work, now I'm tempted to try extension cord wire. Jan, Could you please, in plain and simple terms for my plain and simple brain, explain the difference between the frequency "response" and the frequency "range" details used in speaker specifications. For the 602's as an example: Freq. Response 49Hz - 22kHz ± 3dB on reference axis Freq. Range -6dB at 40Hz and 42kHz Would be much obliged if you could help unconfuse me here. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1531 Registered: Aug-04 | Jan Sorry, meant to add - whenever you have the time. It's not urgent! Thanks |
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