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Archive through February 21, 2005

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 631
Registered: Oct-04
And #3 here:
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Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 632
Registered: Oct-04
And - #4 here: hope these pics help you understand my room situation.
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Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 830
Registered: Dec-03
Hi Larry,

Just a quick observation. Is your carpeting wool or a synthetic fiber? If it is non-wool, lift all speaker cables and interconnects, if any, at least 10" of the carpet. If the carpet is a synthetic fiber it is acting as a mass of low quality insulation, that absorbs & smears energy from the field surrounding the wire. Try it, and tell me what you hear. I don't think it will solve your bass issues, but think it will help with any dullness/clarity issue.

What is the distance from the speakers to the couch? Also, what is the ceiling height and shape?
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 633
Registered: Oct-04
Rick: yeah, the carpet is orlon, nylon, or the likes. Don't know how I'll lift the cables that high - will have to take apart stands, connectors etc. to do it. But heck, I'll give it a try.

The couch is 12 feet out from the speakers, which are a little over 8 feet apart. The ceiling slopes upwards from 9 feet at the outside to 14 feet at the apex, which is over the area that separates kitchen from living room. You can kinda see some of the slope in pic #3?

Sigh - the black cloud descended again. Was listening to a CD when all of a sudden the sound levels in one channel, then the other, dropped out, got louder, softer, etc. Welllll - I thought it might be the NAD (shudder) but when I switched to FM, the sound was OK. Something is rotten in the CD player - probably one or more of the connectors? Am just starting to pull everything apart - will clean and reinstall all the plugs - and see what happens. IF it's internal, then I've gotta contact the Yamaha company and deal with warranty issues, I guess. How come that black cloud always follows me?
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 634
Registered: Oct-04
Rick: Will moving the speaker wires up from the floor give me as much improvement as the brass cones did? (grin)
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 832
Registered: Dec-03
I wish I could tell, Larry. I don't have your ears. LOL! I just noticed the speaker cable on the carpeting, and suggested a quick tweak that may help clean up any dullness or clarity concerns.

As long as you are going to take the speakers off the stands, try this. Place the speakers directly on the floor. Place a cutting board under them if possible. Now give a listen. Do you have a noticeable increase in bass response?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 69
Registered: Jan-05
Hello Dogs,

Just trying to catch up. It's been a busy couple of weeks.

MR, I'm a little late in the news regarding your father. I'm happy to hear that he seems to be doing well. Very remarkable for the type of accident and age. Best wishes for his continued recovery.

Larry,

No, I'm not disappointed with the bass of the Spendors. My initial disappointment was with the openness and the depth of the soundstage in comparison to the B&W's which I felt had more to do with the B&W's handling of the higher ends. The Spendors have a very tight and fast bass response in comparison to the B&W's but there are some aspects where the B&W's come across as "bigger" and "deeper" - for instance the kettle drums in the Also Sprach recording. But, the Spendors very clearly go beyond the range of the B&W's in the low end - at least for my model. The 705 are spec'd with a wider range than the Spendors (and my B&W's - CDM 1NT) so it's surprising that you are not getting the bass response you desire. It could be the room - which you are investigating.

Rick's suggestion to get the speaker wire off the floor is not without merit. The speaker wire I'm getting recommends keeping it off the floor, too.

I have been very busy lately so I have not had much listening time with the Spendors. But, last Saturday, I had several hours to sit and listen and really enjoyed the experience. The music was very natural sounding and there was zero fatigue. I found myself listening to the music and not evaluating the speakers - definite progress! :-) I suppose this means the Spendors are breaking-in but, it could be that I'm more aware of their strengths and that I'm more open to their character.

Larry, the more I listen to the Spendors and the more comments I hear from you, the more I believe the Spendors might be more suitable for you. The Spendors have great balance from top to bottom. The high ends (where I like to hear detail) are detailed but not bright (especially in comparison with my B&W's). Additionally, I don't feel a great need for a sub with the Spendors (with the B&W's a sub is a must have for my model) but I do use a REL sub because, well, because I paid money for it so I may as well use it. However, if I found myself needing some cash, I could part with the sub and be very happy with what I'm getting from the Spendors.

Of course, as Jan mentioned before, it may be time to work with what can be changed with the dynamics of the listening room instead of throwing more equipment at the problem. You've got quality equipment now. Unless there is something defective with the equipment, working with the room may be the best action to take.

You may want to check out the links Jan provided earlier in the thread regarding speaker placement. Those links have given me some ideas on how I might be able to make adjustments in my own listening room to optimize the sound. Now, if I can find some time to actually make the adjustments...

 

Silver Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 214
Registered: Dec-03
I don't think lifting cables off the floor will do much (your wires are insulated). But, I don't believe brass cones deliver the ultimate fidelity, either. I would say that bi-wiring may possibly give you the greatest impact as far as tweaks go. None of which are going to give you a lot of bass with those speakers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 635
Registered: Oct-04
Rick: (whew! Ugh!) Well, I just finished putting the CD player and amp connections all back together. Quite a chore, as I have to work in back of the stereo cabinet with about 5" clearance. I work with a mirror, flashlight, and blind luck! (grin)

Anyway - un-did all the wires, cleaned all and looked for any possible shorts, dirt, etc. Didn't find any. Cleaned (with alcohol) all connections on wires, CD player and receiver. Put all back together - and voila - the thing plays just fine. Must have been some sort of schuihbhs in the connections, or something loose. Sigh. Just glad that it works!

OK - as to the cable caper. Even though Mer and I love you dearly, Rick, I wasn't about to take the connections off the speaker wires, un-snake them through the stand, and then re-do everything. Nope.

But I did elevate the stands - and pick the wire up off the floor about 7" - and, and, and - - - well, I will never be one to say "there's nothing to this," because I know better. But for me, well, I just couldn't tell any difference. Sigh.

But then, I tried the brass cones in all sorts of configurations - and just got frustrated for my efforts.

To any and all on this forum who hear differences with cones, or wire elevations, you have my blessing. I hear a difference with the CD-cleaners, and some might think that's hoooey, also, so I try to remain open-minded.

thanks for the suggestion, though. It must work for you, Rick, and that's the important thing!

I've about decided that, until or unless I'm able to "deaden down" the listening room, everything will ALWAYS sound sorta bright in there. Mer and I will try to see if we can add some wall-hung tapestries, or something. Drapes on the big glass sliders would help, but neither Mer nor I want drapes! Sigh.

I've been playing the B&Ws now for about 6 to 8 hours a day - and hope that there's some change in sound quality. Mer said this ayem that she "thought" they were a little less "sharp" than at first - which is a good sign!

Breaking-in speakers is something that, until I joined this all-knowing forum, I never thought about. But I read on the Mordaunt-Short web site that they INSIST that you break in the subwoofer for 100 hours before you will get the response they claim. So, I guess there must be someting to that. And B&W, you may remember, says the woofer may take up to a month to achieve, I believe they say "stability." Hmmm. . .

SM - no word from ye in a long time. Hope all is well wid you and your flock - let us know how the Spendors are doing! Miss yah. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 636
Registered: Oct-04
Ben James - postings crossed, so I'll respond to you now. Bi-wiring may, indeed help - though I'd have to buy a bunch of new wire to do it. Maybe.

The speakers do have enough bass - BUT - only when they're played rather loud - too loud for Mer and nearly ear-hurting for me. Then, they sound quite wonderful! However, there are the niceties of marriage to consider - and whether I want to face a crazed woman! (grin)

Hoping break-in helps. The sub should be great for all the DVD movies we watch, but I realize it will not be "the answer" for music. Still got a great deal, however! (I hope. . .)
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 637
Registered: Oct-04
SM - sorry, paths crossed again. Will read and respond after lunch. Promise. . .
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Larry, my first question is, where were you standing to get pic #1? Do you not remember the sensation of things hurtling toward you at great speed? It's mostly the same effect when it is you hurtling toward the objects at great speed.
Be careful, sir.

You have the exact opposite problem most people deal with. For the most part people are dealing with a room that is too small to fit a 40Hz wavelength. Their room's reflections from the near walls on the sides are bouncing information around like a pin ball machine. In some cases their room has enough overstuffed furniture to turn a bass note into a dull thud.

You, on the other hand are trying to get your small B&W's to fill a shopping center. You are getting no reinforcement from side walls and corners, You get very little reinforcement from the ceiling, and what you do get is not consistent due to the sloping height. The wall behind the speakers is not tall enough nor long enough to act as an infinite baffle to bass frequencies (which means any soundwave that is longer than the wall is long or tall will wrap around the wall and try to fill that space also). Though the reflection coefficient of the rice paper is lower than that of the glass windows, the rice paper still reflects virtually all the frequencies which arrive at its surface (it just does so unevenly). This reflection adds to the high frequency emphasis of the room. Your wall hanging behind the sofa is rather, well actually, all but totally ineffective in damping reflections from the back wall that is a few inches from your ears when listening. (It can be made more efficient by lowering it about 1',moving it about 4-6" from the wall and placing damping material behind the hanging surface.) Even moving the cloth out from the wall is minimal since the material will still absorb unevenly and reflect most high frequencies. The floor covering is not thick enough to damp the reflections of anything but a bit of midrange. It is also all but ineffective in sustaining a bass note. (Is there any padding underneath?) Well, this is just going to depress you if I continue. You get the point, I hope. Your room is a, read "the", problem. It is no wonder you describe the sound you are getting as thin and at times piercing. (I would suspect the little Polks breathed a sigh of relief when they no longer had to pull yoeman's duty in that space.) The larger problem is what to do about it without incurring the Wrath of Mer (and costing chunks o' cash).

Despite having a space that is the exact opposite of most problem rooms, the constant of room treatment says the solution is exactly the same as every other room. No matter what the space, the solution to the problem is a selective mix of reflective and absorptive surfaces. Whether everything in a space leans in one direction or the other, the lopsided effects are going to result in poor sound. Until a room has the corerct mix of surfaces, the sound quality will be compromised. How much can be done to correct any room is a matter of choice. I won't tell you a subwoofer will not put more bass energy into the room (obviously it will), but the problem of the room will persist.

Unfortunately, the solution to your problem will be more difficult to find in the existing literature. Since most people deal with a room that is too small, most written material deals primarily with that aspect of room treatment. That doesn't mean the answer isn't available. It does mean you will have to read and understand a bit more. I've dealt with your type of room before with clients who live in modern or hacienda type spaces. You might want to call an acoustic engineer in the area and ask for recommendations on reading material, they might have something helpful - or not. You might ask at the audio shops in the area that deal with the same type housing on a regular basis, they might be willing to help someone who has purchase all their gear online - or not.

For now, we await the arrival of THE SUB!

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/10898.html

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/46957.html

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/62252.html

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/42708.html

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/42661.html

https://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Accessories/Acoustic_Room_Treatments/Acoustic_Room _Treatment_Articles/

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Larry - I would send your photos along to B&W. They appear willing to help and will have dealt with this problem before. As to the speakers having "enough" bass when the volume is raised, it is simply a matter of the amount of acoustic power that is required to energize the space the speakers are working into. Think Double Klipschorns! Think Voice of the Theater. Think JBL Paragon!!! (Actually take a look at the Everest picture.)

For now think soft surfaces and boundary walls.


http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/paragon.htm


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
One more point, Larry. Take one of the grills off a speaker and hold it up to the light. Notice how much light comes through the cloth. Now, anything that doesn't allow that much light to pass through the weave of the cloth will begin to reflect the sound at higher, not lower, frequencies. Absorption and diffusion is accomplished by passing the sound waves through sucessive layers of material that eventually dissipate the energy. Absorption cannot occur if the signal is reflected off the surface of the material. No light, probably no absorption. Lots of light, the sound can simply pass through to be reflected off another surface and pass back through again. Lots of light in successive layers = absorption.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 70
Registered: Jan-05
Larry,

I think it's pretty clear that you will need to sell your condo and buy one that has a more appropriate listening space. You probably had not counted on this when you began this quest but sometimes that's the way the ball rolls. <wink>

 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 71
Registered: Jan-05
What if you were to build a short dividing wall (say 3-4 ft tall) between the dining space and living space? Then, you could move your a/v equipment to that short wall which would effectively place your speakers so they would have boundary walls. Your furniture would be shifted 90 degrees to the left so your sofa would be in front of your japanese screen and chairs would be adjusted accordingly. This probably seems extreme but.......
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 638
Registered: Oct-04
Oh, brother - I go away to solve another crisis and come back to find I've got an impossible room-situation on my hands! Sigh & GRIN.

Had to take the car to the shop (again) power steering decided to die. $500. Need I say more?

With Big Scotch in hand, I pen: Well, thanks for a LOT of information - some of which I guessed, and some which comes as news to me.

first, I cannot move about the stereo set. The in-wall wiring for the surround sound - and the cable TV antenna - are both located behind the stereo cabinet. It's set in stone. Soooooo. . .

I'm going to TRY to persuade Mer to get some more soft-stuff on the walls. But - the BIG chair-picture on the wall I'd like to "treat" was painted by her - you get the message.

As to the grill cloth - it covers only the woofers, the tweeters have a thin wire mesh cover. Strange, but inside the cloth woofer-cover there's a lot of criss-cross plastic pieces. I'd think that fewer of those would help pass through the sound - but of course I can't touch them! NO CUTTING! no,no,no,no,no,no,no,noooooo.

Let's see - under the rug there is foam padding. And aside from that - I think I'm stumped. Sigh. How about if I go out and buy a huge blanket - hang it over the speakers, and sit under the other end of it as I listen? Might work. . .
Actually, I'm beginning to think many sticks of dynamite - and moving quickly. (grin)

Y'all have been very helpful - in telling me that my situation is just about hopeless without major renovation and outlay of cash. Yep.

SM - you are right. We should sell. We bought for $179,000 two years ago, and a Realtor told us yesterday that we could sell quickly for $325,000 right now. Gulp. Tempting - but then where the heck would we go that we can afford?

Oh, well - I'll "laugh and lump it," or something like that.

Guess I should be thankful that I have a stereo set at all - and that I can still hear it!

OK - Sundowners time. . .

 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 472
Registered: Feb-04
Larry, why don't you take a break and take Mer out for some ice cream or manhattans, whichever she prefers, and a long, relaxing walk somewhere nice?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 72
Registered: Jan-05
In looking at some of the acoustic room treatments available, all I can say is "damn, that's some ugly s@%$" Larry, this might be a business opportunity for you, Mer and me. We could develop acoustical treatments with high WAF.

 

Silver Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 215
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

You should just be able to pull the grill off. You don't neet to cut it. They do come off. You can put it back on.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 73
Registered: Jan-05
Here's a couple of things I noticed in regards to your room that may create problems based on my readings:

- your furniture is mostly wood and leather (more reflective than cloth furniture)

- a lack of boundary walls to the sides of the speakers

- large expanses of unbroken surface on the long walls

Here are some practical things that might help in regards to some of the reflective surfaces (but don't know if these will help the bass problem.)

- Instead of building a permanent dividing wall between the dining/living areas, setup a bank of short bookcases. They can server two purposes: Use them for storage and for displaying bowls, sculptures, etc. - but, they will also act as a reflection diffuser.

- Add throw pillows to the sofa and add a fabric throw to the back of the sofa.

- Add big leaf plants in the corner near the sliding glass door and in front of the japanese screen.

- Put decorative bowls or sculptural pieces on your coffee table to break up the reflective surfaces.

- On the long wall behind the TV, change the grouping of your pictures and add decorative enclosed shelving. Do the same thing on either side of your Persian rug over the sofa. An example of the type of shelving is here:

Decorative Shelves

- You have those beautiful speaker stands...but, as a test, try putting the speakers on a 4" block of maple wood and put those brass cones you talked about under the front of the speakers to tilt them back. When I had my Mac in the bedroom, this gave the MA's and the B&W's a much bigger/fuller sound without the use of the sub. I believe someone on this forum indicated this might yield a +3db result?

- Build an attractive acoustic treatment to place on the wall behind your equipment and speakers. Check out this article for instructions on DIY room treatments for around $100:

DIY Room Treatments


Hmmm...this reminds me of things I need to do in my own living room...
 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 74
Registered: Jan-05
Larry, I saw one suggestion of hanging canvas art works instead of framed pictures with glass/acrylic faces. Fill the space behind the canvas with acoustic treatment such as styrofoam covered with fabric.

So, it seems there are quite a few "practical" options available to you in making your room a little less lively.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 75
Registered: Jan-05
BTW, that last post was in reference to the big chair painting...see - you can keep it and maybe even add a few more of Mer's talent to the walls to help with the acoustics. How do you like that?

I think all of these measures should help with the mids & highs but am not sure if they help with the bass problem.....but, if the room is less lively and you can cut down on some of the brightness maybe the bass problem isn't as bad as currently perceived?

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Larry - The point of having you pull the grill off was so you could hold it up to the light. I really don't care whether the woofer or the tweeter have a grill cloth or oatmeal on them. If the material you are using for acoustic treatment doesn't let the sound pass through as it does with grill cloth, the material you are using will reflect the sound. The wave has to pass through the outer layer before anything other than reflection can occur. Japanese rice paper panels are not going to let information pass through. Therefore, the Japanese panels and the wall hangings are reflecting the sound. That is the reason for asking you to look through the grill.

Mer's picture is reflecting the sound, but it has little consequence to what you are hearing where you are sitting. What you are hearing more in your listening position is the wall 6" from your ears.

Before you put the for sale sign out in the yard, the good news of your room is the long distance to the side walls and ceiling will give the first reflections from these points much less effect than more conventional rooms. This typically can benefit the imaging and the soundtaging of the system. There's what you have to look forward to. Add the sub and possibly the amount of energy you will be able to put into the room will be sufficient for low level listening as well as high volume.

You are right. Do NOT cut the little plastic pieces. They are not interferring with the sound. It's sneaky at those frequencies and knows how to get out on its own.





 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 639
Registered: Oct-04
2 Cents - took Mer out, not for a walk, but for nice Sundowners on the lanai. Had drinks and chips and small-talk and a wonderful sunset. Good.

SM - OK - am putting "temporary" soft-cloth throw on the back of the sofa, and on the chairs. also Adding some soft-stuffed sculpture at various points in the room. Will soon hang another wool rug under the bar separating kitchen from dining area. We're talking about yet another Indian rug hanging on the wall behind the stereo.

The Oriental rug over the sofa is deep-pile wool, and absorbs sound very well. I hung it that high so that people with greasy hair didn't get it all messed up! (grin)

Jan - you are right about the rice paper - but it's use in studios and homes comes in with it's positioning - in V-shapes so as not to directly reflect sound, but to deflect it. Our main studio for radio in Chicago had all-wood walls - but they were cut into V and semi-circle shapes, so that the sound did not directly reflect.

We're thinking of putting a sorta "free-form drape" of fabric up the sides of the sliding glass doors, and draped over the top. It will be decorative, not real "drapes." Will help the liveness, I'm sure - but not a lot.

Well, we THOUGHT we were going to do another speaker-wire test. Our nutzy LA friend called this eve to ask if we'd gotten his package of loaner test-wires. No, we said. And he started in. Seems he sent them out to us Priority Mail five days ago - they were supposed to be delivered in three days. Were not. Now, apparently they're lost somewhere. I asked him if he'd insured them, and he shocked me by saying: "no, I figgered I didn't have to." Gulp. so, somewhere out there, is a package with about 4-thousand dollars worth of speaker cables. He's trying a trace - but good luck, Charley!

After the CD player incident, and the power steering, and the lost cables, and the room sound problems - heck, I've had it!

G-nite, friends, and thanks from an ole scribe who's really beginning to wish he'd bought a "theatre-in-a-box" and just forgot about all this hi-end sound crud! I'll probably feel bedder in dah morning.

Sleep well, all!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Asimo

Post Number: 52
Registered: Apr-04
Larry R

After watching your room picture I think that may be I was wrong and there is a point in adding sub to your system.
Your room is very big with high ceil and open space to kitchen and other rooms.
The B&W 705 are small speakers It is probably beyond their ability and power to fill such a big volume.
I had similar case with my small Sonus Faber Concertino's speakers. The Concertino's were unable to fill my living room. I did not replace them because my wife liked them. To look not to listen. I was lucky to have a small private music room where I do all the listening with another system. I tried the Concertino's in the small room and they sounded fantastic and filled the room easily.
There are some advantages for small accurate two way speakers even in a big room. Solo instruments like piano, oboe, cello, sound very good, also chamber music and jazz ensemble but a full orchestra or grand opera no.
The B&W are the smallest speakers in the 700 series. I think that the bigger B&W from the 700 series can deal with a large room better. I also think that the lower B&W series 603S3 or 604 can be a good match but their WAF is lower.

My friendly suggestions and recommendation for the current system setup:

Try to apart the speakers up to 5m That trick worked very good in our opera club listening hall 10m x 15m.
Add whatever you and your wife agrees to soften the room acoustic. SM suggestions were very good
Hard to say but look around for a big B&W, Spendor, Proac, Dynaudio or even US speakers. You may win a lotto prize
Try a good sub. Although my experience with friends sub was bad it may be because they did not know to adjust it or it was a low grade sub.
Take it easy


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 640
Registered: Oct-04
Asimo: Thanks for the posting, sir! I'm working on the room - and within about four hours, I'll have a new subwoofer.

Don't know if you saw earlier postings re my new purchase - for a great price.

It's a Mordaunt-Short 909 subwoofer. It comes from a place that bought up a big lot of last year's end-of-model speakers - and it is finished in light cherry - like my B & Ws. The "new" model of the "Classic" series 909 by M-S comes only in very light maple or black. Thus, while some might be upset over getting an "old" color, I'm thrilled.

I'll post whatever happens with the new sub, obviously - but it will take awhile to set up, and then the company says not to expect the best performance for the first 75-100 hours. A LONG time playing, eh? (grin)

Your suggestion as to wider placement of the B&Ws may be a good one - just not sure. The wires to the speakers are only 7-feet long each - about 4 meters for the total 14-foot span? Right now I've got the speakers separated by just under 10 feet total width. To make a wider separation, I'd have to get new wire. Which I'd like to avoid, if possible.

As you may have read earlier, my nutzy-but-brilliant recording engineer-friend out in LA "says" he sent me some speaker wires to test. But they're "lost" somewhere along the way, I guess.

Meanwhile, he e-mailed me late last night, to say that several recording studios out there use the BIG B&W Nautilus system as monitors - but that two studios use the 705s for some of their smaller rooms. He says the engineers don't even begin to use the 705s until they've been "run-in" for 300 or more hours. Apparently they just hook them up to some sort of music source, and forget them until time's up. Then I guess they set them up, audition them, and compare them with other speakers. Sounds like a LOT of work to me - but for those who like the B&W "sound," I guess they feel it's worth it.

BTW - he said the Mordaunt-Short subwoofer should be "awesome" with movies such as Master & Commander. But then - heck, he's Hollywood!!!(grin)

thanks for the posting, Asimo. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 641
Registered: Oct-04
Jan V. - in re-reading your earlier post - it would really be too bad if I put oatmeal on front of the speakers - just my humble opinion, of course! (double grin, sir)
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Larry - I'm beginning to wonder.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Should you decide to go the oatmeal route, I would suggest you first audition the gently "rolled" variety. Avoid the "coarse" ground.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Larry - Maybe I assumed you knew something that possibly you didn't or had forgotten. The loss of bass response at low volume is partially due to the Doppler Effect. That was a reason for including the "loudness" control in years past. Your use of judicious tone controls at lower levels would be similar to a mild loudness level control and perfectly acceptable as a way to make up for a situation that is a matter of normal hearing as much as the acoustic loading of the room. You're going to add the sub which will aid in putting more acoustic power into the space. Should you still find a lack of bass at low levels, it certainly would not be inappropriate to add a bit with the bass control. In this case, with the sub in the system, you can use the remote's control for the sub alone to add a few dB's when needed.



 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 642
Registered: Oct-04
Oh, my! Oh, my!

"Way cool!

"Neat-oh!"

That's the reaction of my usually-Mensa-level wife when I hooked up the new sub and put on the Diana Krall "Paris" DVD.

We had a time of it, setting it all up - but in the end, I think the WAF is good, the sound is simply awesome, and the whole room takes on a new dimension.

Hard to set the levels, though. I guess it will take some time. The CD that was SUPPOSED to be with the sub - wasn't. I called, and the seller said "oops, the MS people shipped the CDs separately, so we'll send you one right away." Yep.

Anyway - set the NAD to crossover at 100Hz - and all four speakers to "small." Then just cranked up the sub's crossover to its highest point. Guess that's the right thing to do? Right?

Had a bit of a tingle with it at first, because it was simply overpowering. So, turned down the volume on the sub to about 25 % and let 'er rip.

The company says to let the sub burn-in for about 50 hours - but what the heck do you put on that will give the sub a workout for that long? I'm trying to find some stuff to give it a workout.

Mer is happy. I'm happy. The sub looks nice, and I told Mer she could put some small sculpture on top, as long as she put some felt "feet" under it. The cabinet doesn't vibrate at all - especially with our listening levels.

Tomorrow - on goes "Master and Commander," and we'll see if the walls and pictures remain intact.

I'm still twidding with all the controls, so things may change around a bit - but from what Mer and I hear so far - the purchase was worth every penny.

The B&Ws, by the way, are sounding better and better. We will be adding some room treatments, especially around the big sliding-glass doors.

thanks for all your comments, criticisms and general information. I'm poorer but happier. Think this HiFi stuff will last. . .

Have mixed up a big pot of thick oatmeal - just in case the subwoofer needs to have the frequencies evened-out. Slurp, slurp. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 643
Registered: Oct-04
To all: Here's the new "baby." All 60 pounds of, uh, "it."
- - - - - - - -
Upload
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2817
Registered: Dec-03
Asimo,

I agree completely.

I also agree with SM aka Ghia. In such a room, the B&W 703 or 704 might have been a better choice. Or the Spendor S6e or bigger.

Larry,

However, small speakers on stands are good for directionality, so the solution you have arrived at could be preferred by many people.

I have very similar sub, badged "Gale" not "Mordaunt Short", but the spec is similar and it even looks the same.

Here a specific suggestion for a starting-point.

For music.

Your 705s are specified "46Hz -- 25kHz ±3dB on reference axis".

Connect the sub at speaker level, not line level.

Set the crossover on the sub to 50 Hz.

Adjust the sub gain control so that it gives a subjectively similar volume of sound at spot frequencies below 50 Hz (you have a test CD) to those produced by the 705s above 50 Hz. If you do not trust you own assessment, borrow a sound pressure level meter.

Put on some big stuff such as Mahler.

I think you will find it "fills the room" but is still musical. You will here the big percussion better.

For movies, 5.1, you can do two things:

1. Keep the speaker-level connection, and tell the receiver or player "bass management" you have "no sub" but that the main speakers are large.

2. Connect the sub instead (not "as well") to the receiver "subwoofer" ouput, that is, at line level, with the co-ax RCA cable. Either R or L input to the sub; it makes no difference.

You are then in the world of having many hours of fiddling with settings, to see what gives the effect you like. Your 705s are still "large" in the home theater sense, so "mains large plus sub" is probably a good place to start.

Master and Commender is a good test of which method you prefer. It has some very well-recorded music as well as some cool and intelligently-done low-frequency special effects. Choose DTS every time.

It should scare the horses. And put Boney in his place once and for all.

If I recall, though, you and Mer found that movie too scary. That is probably where the oatmeal can help....

All the best!
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1409
Registered: Aug-04
Larry,

I have to disagree with our friend John and Ghia in that the 703/704's would be better suited to your room - well, in a way, if you'd had the bankroll, I might then tend to agree, but then those speakers would be better suited to us all. {grin}.

The 705's take a bit more juice to get them going - you'll note the specs stating suitable for amp power 50w to 120w - this says something: it won't perform all that well down low (my dealer agreed). No running in is going to change that fact to any great degree so sit back and enjoy - they are great speakers. You've done the right thing supplementing them with the sub so now it's all systems go.

Today, I was real bad: I bought a pair of 601 S3's to replace our JBL S3611 wall mount rears and they are just - well - darn marvellous. I had thought everything sounded hunkey dory but felt something could be improved and I suspected the rears; they were good but good ain't good enough! They meld with the 6S2 centre and the Xti60's beautifully, I cannot get over the difference they've made.

My dealer allowed me to buy them (with discount), take them home and try them out over the weekend on the promise of a full refund or credit towards a pair of 602's. I have decided paying another $300 for the 602's is hardly warranted after testing the 601's in the system with several cd's and high res discs.

BTW - all the stitches are out and Dad is doing just great! Bruised, sore, aching, but much, much better. Life is getting back to normal - if that's the right word.

Enjoy the music!


 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 834
Registered: Dec-03
Rantz,

I am very glad to hear that your father is on the mend. Enjoy your new toys, and stay well.

Larry,

Ditto. I am very happy to hear that the sub solved the problem. I was afraid you were going to have to sell the condo. It was touch and go there for a while. LOL! Enjoy.

Greeting and a great weekend to all the "Dogs".
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Bruised, sore and aching ... IT'S TIME FOR DRUGS!!! YEA!!!


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 646
Registered: Oct-04
My Rantz - G-day, sir! I, too, send best wishes to your father and all the family. As I said before - the older generations are often made of sterner stuff than are we!

On yer new speakers - well, I think you chose very well. I've heard some of those, and have to say that they ARE "musical!." Congrats, sir.

John A. - well, sir, you've confused me a bit, but I copied out your posting for future reference. Right now, I'm settling in with line level - at least until I get used to all these controls!

I do question your low setting on the crossover, though. I personally think it a bit too low. At 50Hz you're straining the bottom end of the B&Ws, and I have enough trouble as it is with weak bass. In setting the CO at 100Hz, I get more out of the sub, and make less work for the B&Ws. Any and all comments welcome, chaps!

One or two questions for all the "knowledgeable Dogs" - bass management. I have it on both the CD player and the NAD. Do I set the player for "straight through" with no bass management, and set it up on the NAD? Do I use both? None of the manuals addresses that question.

Right now I've got all speakers on small - sub crossover set at 100Hz - and the "slope" set at 18. Still having trouble getting the sub volume set just right - will take some practice.

Rick - no condo-selling right now! (grin) But you're right - touch and go for awhile!

As of this morning - the B&Ws are finally sounding better. Mer says so. Not so shrill. Guess the breaking-in has some merit?

Mer also loves the sub - but sorta wishes it was not quite so large.

We both got our ears pinned back - and then had a good laugh when setting up the sub. After reading copious descriptions of the "cherry wood" cabinet - and British reviewer comments on its "fine fit and finish," wellllll . . . we looked carefully, and - and - and - (shudder)

The cabinet is VINYL-COVERED! Whattt??!!??? Yep. Very good grain, but vinyl, nonetheless. Sigh. I told Mer to just put some sculpture on it, and she said maybe also a bit of cloth? Hmmm. . .so much for Mordaunt-Short "truth in advertising!"

Still - it sounds great - the lows are not just "thuds," but distinct tones/notes. When it gets run-in, it should be fine.

But enough on that. I want to hear more from My Rantz on the new speakers - and SOME PICS, PLEASE, SIR! OK?

More anon. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 420
Registered: Mar-04
Hi all Old Dogs.
Haven't been around much lately, and when I have, either nothing to say or no time to say it :-)

I see a lot of new "doggy toys" for the pack so far this year - that's great!!

Best wishes for speedy recoveries for MR's father and Larry's friend Jerry, (in my warped way of looking at things I always felt the pancreas was an overrated organ).

More later....


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Sem; poster child for diabetics 'r' us.


 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1410
Registered: Aug-04
Thanks all for kind wishes -including Sem, Two Cents and SM.

The 601's came courtesy of a little windfall and, thank goodness, not only rated well on the WAF, but the darling W also noted how they added such improvement to our 'sound' - as Larry can attest, this in itself adds that extra 'value' :-)

As fer as photos go Larry, I'll see what I can do. These little speakers have enabled us to bring the rear sound down from the wall and onto the furniture where, asthetically, they blend well. I was a little worried this move might be to the detrement of listening to surround SACD (as delay settings are void) but my fears were quickly allayed - after optimising all settings once more, they (and dvd-a) sound better than ever, which I never thought possible [grin].

It's audio utopia. Bite your tongue Jan :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 835
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

Just let me know when you need that band aid. I have two, so I can spare one.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2819
Registered: Dec-03
My Ranz,

Great stuff. You now have directional "surrounds". I am sure it sounds good. Jan was commenting on bass reflex ports. If anyone can get it right, it is the likes of B&W. It is interesting Spendor can get down to 40 Hz with two drivers in a sealed box in the S6e. Of course they are floor standing and probably not ideal surrounds. Spendor make an "Ambient" bi-directional surround speaker, too. Personally I like directional sound and precise imaging. I think you made a good choice there, if I may say so, MR. Eventually, let us know the opinion of the Adeladian audiophile on yer system. Mate.

Larry,

After I wrote, it occurred to me that when I wrote "for music" I meant "for stereo". Old habits die hard. And J.V. is very persuasive. But most people recommend speaker-level connection to increase stereo bass extension without adverse side effects. I have (well, had) the sub connected at line level, but I do not use it for stereo. I tried it both ways, and it adds just a hint of very low notes in big music, but it is not worth the effort of reconnecting. REL and a few others make subs where you can switch connections "on the fly". Don't try that with the Mordaunt Short. Yes, my Gale sub is "Beech effect" vinyl. It is fine. It is out of sight. I think subs should be neither heard nor seen. They should be flattered to be asked to extend the bass, and humbly serve by doing just that.

My suggestion of 50 Hz was as a starting point. I don't think B&W 705s will "strain" at 50 Hz. They just begin to roll off. 100 Hz is OK for line level (where it is not really acting as a "crossover" because the higher frequencies do not go anywhere). But you may then find that you get the range 50-100 Hz twice. That is how it is with my system, using the receiver to decode Dolby Digital AC-3. You have a newer receiver so it may not be a problem.

Actually I mostly listen in stereo at the moment. I am still wondering to go for my "always dreamed of" main speakers or get a valve amp. Stereo rules in our apartment, for the time being. I have not seriously tried my DVD-A discs in stereo. I am interested to know whether the "wow" factor really is increased resolution, or the effect of multichannel.

MR again (after reading your most recent post),

I still maintain that multi-channel adds something stereo cannot do. I am not anti- stereo. Quite on the contrary. But there is really something more there with surround channels, if the engineers knew what they are doing. I am just warming up to post something on "Rate your discs here". Like Larry, I have tried plastic computer speakers as makeshift surrounds. The effect is still there, and it still adds to the experience. Surround speakers rarely have to work hard. I still think I will get super mains, maybe with a valve amp, eventually, and just turn my present stereo system into the one that handles the rear channels. You can do that with the analogue outputs from a DVD-A/SACD player.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2820
Registered: Dec-03
Sem,

Just saw your post. Welcome back. I have been a less frequent visitor of late, too.

I think everyone should look after his or her pancreas. Most internal organs, come to that. Spleen etc.

Is life worth living?

- It depends on the liver.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 76
Registered: Jan-05
JohnA

I have not seriously tried my DVD-A discs in stereo. I am interested to know whether the "wow" factor really is increased resolution, or the effect of multichannel.

Well, then, get going with the testing! But, wait...then you said.

I still maintain that multi-channel adds something stereo cannot do. I am not anti- stereo. Quite on the contrary. But there is really something more there with surround channels, if the engineers knew what they are doing.

hmmm...sounding a little Jekyll&Hydean...

Lar,

Glad to hear you got the sub and it appears to be satisfying your bass needs. Like John, I tend to set my sub at speaker level. But, maybe my room doesn't suck out the bass as a big space such as yours does so it isn't as needed.

MR,
Congrats on the new surrounds. Got 'em Kimbered, yet? :-)

Sem,

Good to hear from you! Don't be a stranger....

Jan,

How did you end up bruised, sore and aching? Hopefully, the explanation will pass eCoustics content filters. ;-)

Rick,

Do you still have Maggies? Just wondering....
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 647
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - OK, you got me confused again, sir. Are you sayhing that, if I hook up the sub with the Line Level output from receiver to sub that the NAD's crossover does NOT work? From what I read, it does - need a little help here. I set all the speakers to "small," and the crossover to 100Hz, and the sub's crossover as high as it would go. The low notes on bass viol, for example, go to the sub - rather evident. But there DOES seem to be a crossover at work. Maybe I just mis-understand your explanation. It happens to me all the time. . .

Master and Commander today shook the pictures and vibrated the couch - and the canon shots nearly took my head off. fortunately - the neighbors are away. . . (grin)

My Rantz - sounds like you're getting it right, sir! Congrats - and many, many happy listening-hours to you and yours.

Gotta tell y'all a funny: As to my friend Jerry. Well, he's in the hospital - and two cardiologists are arguing over whether he had a mild heart attack. Then in come the gastroenterologists, who argue that he might have had a hiatus hernia, or an attack of pancreatitis, or gall bladder problems.

Now you've got FIVE doctors - none of them agreeing. One says pancreas must go - which is pretty radical, because as I understand, you can't live without it. The cardiologists get angry and sign off - saying they're "outta here."

Now three other doctors are fighting. They seem to have found "sludge" (that's what they said!) in some of the ducts that are shared by pancreas and gall bladder. Thus, they don't know which organ is to blame. And the poor patient is sent to one surgeon, who says go home and take antacid. Second surgeon says no, the hospital has to do more tests. Third doctor says take out the gall bladder - but won't accept my friend's health insurance.

Friend goes to a FOURTH doctor, who says he will take insurance - and remove the gall bladder laparoscopically - using some of those new-fangled tubes that they stick down inside and sorta root out the bad stuff.

OK - now that everybody's PO'd at everybody else, my friend THINKS he'll have the surgery on the 25th of February - unless there is a change.

All this, mind you, is adding up thousands of dollars in "consulting" fees, and hospital time, and I don't know what-all.

Here's an example of what's wrong with our medical treatment procedure - too many doctors, too little information. Sigh.

Mer says if I wake up with a severe pain in my chest just to drink some cold water and stand up straight for awhile. The pain, she promises, will go away. One way or the other! (grin) She's SUCH a sympathetic person!

Back to CD-sorting. With all my new-found sonic excellence the OLD CDs - especially early DG discs - sound really, really awful. They go to charity, and I shop around for "new."

More anon. . .and have a wunnerful weekend, all!
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 648
Registered: Oct-04
SM - sorry, my post crossed yours. Now, I gotta ask this: You say you set your sub at "speaker level." Well, yeah, I try to balance my sub with the speakers. But this begs the question.

Do you mean that you hook your sub up to the main speaker connections? Or do you use the line "sub out" jack on your receiver? I use line level jack.

I'm getting confuseder and confuseder in this. And need help (LOTS of help!)

Many thanks. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 836
Registered: Dec-03
Ms. Mac,

I't good to hear from you. I hope all is well.
No more Maggies, I sold them and got the Ohms. And how are your Spendors sounding? Do you have 100 hours on them yet? Also, have you ordered the Mapleshade speaker cable?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 77
Registered: Jan-05
Lar,

I hooked the sub into the speaker connections and set the crossover on the sub to 53hz. The Spendors low end response is 52hz and the rolloff is spec'd at +-6db at 40hz.

According to the REL manual, the high level input (using the speaker connections) ensures far superior system integration... and the high level connection method is the preferred way where the highest possible sound quality is demanded.

My sub also has the low level input but it appears to be recommended for use in HT to remove everything below 80hz from the main speakers. Since I don't have HT anymore, I'm not using this input. My sub's manual also says to reach optimal potential, I should have two subs (like JohnA) but I didn't put out the extra cash for that. Man, what a cheapskate I am!

Rick,

Due to time constraints, I don't have anywhere near 100 hours on the Spendors yet. I haven't been running them in during the day either (in the past week) so they probably have 35-40 hours on them at most. Last weekend, I was very happy. This weekend, I'm not feeling the love. While listening to "Invisible Ink", my favorite track on Aimee Mann's "Lost in Space", I felt some of the initial disappointment I experienced out of the box creep back in....

Gotta get ready for a dinner party being hosted by some Brazilian friends. They are promising an authentic ethnic meal.

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 649
Registered: Oct-04
SM - looks like you have a MUCH better sub manual than I do! Mine is about six pages long, and just gives descriptions of each connector, switch, etc. Sigh.

OK, Dawgs - what's the best thing for me to do? I've got this expensive sub cable for line out, and to hook up the sub to the speaker connectors I've gotta run more wire. Just don't want to do that unless it will make a MAJOR difference!

Mer is coming home from teaching, so gotta get Sundowners ready for the lanai. A nice, big Jose Martini for me (martini with Thai hot peppers instead of olive) white wine for Mer, and some "California Roll" sushi - it's made with avocado, cucumber, and artificial crab - thus, no RAW FISH - which I refuse to eat. But this is very good, and we eat it about two or three times a month. goes down smooth wid those Martinis!

Went out to a "U-pick farm" yesterday and picked a bunch of fresh tomatoes, so will have those sliced with some light dressing - green beans - and baked tilapia with a butter-herb sauce. Pinot Grigio and then slices of one of those new hybrid "baby watermelons." It's about 8 inches in diameter - they're sweet! Dat's it. Simple - elegant - Rick would love it!

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1411
Registered: Aug-04
Larry,

With the subs - My 100W Krakatoa is connected at line level. My crossovers for movies (in receiver set up) and hi-res (in DVD set up) are set at 80hz, The sub's crossover is set to the limit (160hz I think) and volume at maximum - so the sub's output is determined by the external bass management, loudness levels as well as the crossover settings.

SM

Re: authentic ethnic meal

I know your friends are cooking but I'd ask if they're using the low cholestrol ethnics before noshing in. Also the fat free variety are nice especially if marinated for a day or two.

Ebay?

Be careful, a chap saw a photo of a nice looking laptop on an internet auction. He sent his payment and a few days later, his package arrived. He thought it seemed rather small, opened it and took out what he had paid for: the photo of the laptop! True story.

John,

Thanks. You're right: the 601's can be directed to listener much more accurately than the wall mounts. Apart from that, the performance of the lower power rated 601's is far, far superior. Funny, the JBL S3611's were the same RRP as the 601's. If only I had realised then what I know now. Regarding the "Adeladian audiophile" (aka stereophile), not only was he knocked out by the JBL XTI-60s which he now prefers to his custom Krix 3 way floorstanders, he thought the hi-res formats were sensational and said, quote, "I can see why you were raving about listening in surround" - this was prior to the 601 S3 purchase. So there you have it - from the (cough, cough) expert.

Rick, Rick, Rick,

Forget the bandaids - try hearingaids and don't forget Jan. Stereo is nice but . . .



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Stereo is nice but mono is interesting too!


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 650
Registered: Oct-04
I think I'm turning all speakers off except the sub. That ought to be unique! Heck, Jan - it will give me "mono!" Interesting. . . (GRIN)

G-nite all. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1412
Registered: Aug-04
Larry - you axed for it: rear-left

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Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1413
Registered: Aug-04
Rear right:

Upload
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2822
Registered: Dec-03
Simply,

You got me, there. I used to be indecisive. I think. Half-way through writing that post I read My Rantz, and listened to a DVD-A disc set to 4.0 with computer speakers for surrounds. It was much better than in stereo. Really. It would be so good to have a debate and demonstration with Mr Vigne. I feel quite sure that I could demonstrate the added value of rear channels, purely for music, to anyone's satisfaction. The real question, I suppose, behind this whole thread, is "how much added value?" and thus "is it worth it?". Jan would probably advise, in most cases, spending a given sum of money on making improvements to a stereo-only system, not "upgrading" to surround. He could be right. I hate this feeling of sitting on the fence, trying to be all things to all men. Or women. But it is where I am. I used to be passionate about DVD-A. Guess I still am, but I have also heard some tremendous stereo CDs recently. In the end, it is the music. For me.

Larry,

Are you sayhing that, if I hook up the sub with the Line Level output from receiver to sub that the NAD's crossover does NOT work? Sorry, what I meant is that the sub's "crossover" is not then really a crossover, but a low-frequency-pass filter. In contrast, the sub's "crossover" really is a crossover when it is connected at speaker level: frequencies above it are passed on to the main speakers. At line level, they go nowhere.

Ghia,

Yes, REL have all this sub business sorted out, I think. That's how I see it, too.

I should have two subs (like JohnA)

At the moment I have none. Back in the old house I have one active sub, similar to Larry's. The other subs you may remember from my photo (thanks!) are two passive subs called KEF SW2000 which were designed specifically to be used in combination with the KEF C15 (-3 dB 65 Hz) in order to extend the bass to -3 dB at 40 Hz. It works very well, but blew up my old amp. It is a long story, and ancient history. I bought the C15s just before we moved from UK; they were small enough to go in a car. I liked them so much I bought the SW2000s to go with them. KEF claimed the end result was similar to one of their big Reference floor-standers. So, to be accurate, I have three subs. None of them here in The Capital.

My Rantz,

Great story about the sibling from the territory of fine whines. I am proud of you. Wait till he hears those super-looking 601s.

I sort of feel responsible for egging you on into the surround world. All these "back to basics" guys have some good points, but, here is the coupe de grace. B*gger Mahler. This is the stuff. Full of great tunes, humanity, style, wit, passion, vision. As I have said before, it is a reverse "test of faith". If there is any case at all for "I know that my redeemer liveth", then surely it is this.

George Frideric Handel
Messiah
Coro della Radio Svizzera
I Barocchisti
Director Diego Fasolis
ARTS MUSIC 45007-6
96/24 5.1 DVD-Audio

If it don't make you alternately cheer, weep, grieve, and then want to conquer the World, you ain't human. If it don't convince Lar of the superiority of real instruments, no hi-fi in the world will ever reach those cloth ears. If you don't fall instantly in love with the soprano, Lynne Dawson, you are probably, well, er... (bit of a loss for words there).

And that's in 4.0 with plastic surrounds. And I've only listened to part I. His yoke is easy, and his burden light. I intend to chain Mrs A to a chair later today. The problem is getting people to sit still and listen.

And it is a totally international band. Recorded in Lugano, Switzerland, 2000. Brit soprano (LD) and Tenor (Charles Daniels). By the looks of it French Mezzo (Guillemette Laurens). Italian Bass (Antonio Abete). Love the accents. Loads of German, Italian, English and French- sounding names in the choir and the band, Love them all. I have "The Sixteen" version on Hyperion CD from twenty or so years ago (awesome, and same soprano), plus a few others: Miss Dawson is the only soprano I can think of whose voice has got better with age (sexist comparisons with wine etc). C.f. Joni Mitchell amongst others (admittedly no longer a soprano; must have been the f_gs).

Recording: off the scale.
Interpretation: off the scale
Music: off the scale and out of sight (Who exactly is this "God" guy?)

It would be worth getting DVD-Audio just to play this one disc.

IMHO.


The following words are not allowed on this discussion board:

f_gs
Please revise your post to remove the words indicated above.


Uh?!

I know there is strong anti-smoking lobby, with good reason, but is this not going a bit far, even for ecoustics? Or is there another meaning...?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2823
Registered: Dec-03
PS Bass-managed down to stereo (2.0), that is still a great disc. But it sounds for all the world as if it was recorded in a swimming baths. You can't here where anything is. Nimbus used to be like that when they were recording in ambisonics but releasing in stereo.

But, set to 4.0, switch on the surrounds. Ah.... Magical. Really.
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1414
Registered: Aug-04
Jan,

"Stereo is nice but mono is interesting too."

Yes and also handy when the hearing goes in one ear.

John A,

Sibling won't hear new rears as he's leaving tomorrow. Actually he did not get to spend too much time to have a lengthy critical listen because of the 'Accident', but he will be leaving pondering his system and possibly will wallow in disappointment once home to listen again to his gear [grin].

Okay, I'll look out for your recommendation but I remain wary as you have become a bit of a puddle jumper of late. It must be 'the getting used to home' syndrome - or something!

Remember all

It ain't worth a thing if it ain't got that swing!

 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 837
Registered: Dec-03
What was it you said Rantz? Can you speak up, I can barely hear you. Can you type a little larger? Better yet, why don't you chisel it in really big letters, on my cave wall. Thank you my friend. LOL!
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 651
Registered: Oct-04
G-day, all:

Notes to myself - read all of the fine print, dummy! There, that's beddah.

The above has to do with my drivvle on how to set up my bass management - on the stereo, not on my person - please! Anyway, I was confused, as usual, about whether to set the bass management on CD player or NAD receiver. Had I only read the NAD manual more closely (maybe new glasses?) I would have found ONE small line, buried deep in the "speaker settings" section. It said: "In the 7.1 analog input, there is no bass management." Aha!! Soooo - I have to set bass management on the Player - or not at all. Set it. Good. Now, I use player's BM (well, you know what I mean) for analog, and NAD's BM for anything digital and FM broadcast. That settles it - for good!

My Rantz - hey, ole chap, them thar's purty nyce speekurs! Yep - and from a smallish listening experience of my own, they sound Smooth! You'll surely have a fantastic music experience with those, sir! Congratulations on a choice well made. And THANX FOR THE PICTURES!!!

Mer adds that she's enchanted by the art-pieces she sees in the pics - and also the wooden staircase. Makes us both homesick for the big wood staircase we had, and loved, when we lived way, way up in the Colorado mountains. Sigh. You've got a pretty neat house, sir! And congrats to Ms. Rantz, who's obviously in charge of "home enhancements!" Good taste, there, lady!

John A. - OK - I finally get it. Takes time for us Yanks to understand British nuances, don't you know! (grin)

I'm leaving the sub on the "line" input, basically 'cause I have a new cable for it, and don't think I could hear the differences that SM's sub-manual claims. After all, I can't seem to hear wire-differences, either! Others, obviously can.

SM - as a newcomer to the wunnerful wurld of sub-dom - it would seem to me that you might be setting the sub too low? Surely you must want to "leave" the mains speakers before they sorta "bottom out?" Has your sub-manual suggested a slightly higher setting - say 80Hz? I'm just wondering how much work your sub does if it only kicks in under 50Hz. Asking - not trying to tell you anything.

I'm still toying with various crossover settings, but right now, 100Hz seems about right for me. Today, I'll kick it down to 80 - and try to hear differences. One of the problems right now is that the company wants me to "break in" the sub for about 25 hours. Thus, I need to "feed it" stuff to make it work. Jazz combos with heavy bass come to mind, and I'm searching elsewhere for stuff with a lot of rather constant low bass.

Away to put finishing touches on Income Taxes today and tomorrow - so will be in rather foul mood. Asking for forgiveness ahead of time! (GRIN)

More anonish. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 421
Registered: Mar-04
Jan: Sem; poster child for diabetics 'r' us.

John A: I think everyone should look after his or her pancreas. Most internal organs, come to that. Spleen etc.
Is life worth living?
- It depends on the liver.


Great stuff guys, made me laugh which is a good thing right now. Seems like the "year 2005 misfortunes" have bitten the Sem family. Or more accurately, Mrs. Sem's family, as my wife's 81 year old father took a header down the basement stairs. It took us two days to get him to agree to an ambulance ride. End result: 5 broken ribs, broken collar bone, broken shoulder blade, and blood on the brain. The medical staff, however, is most concerned about the fluid starting to build in his lungs as a result of not being able to breath deeply due to the pain from his ribs. He's in critical condidtion, with the next 24-48 hours quite important.
I have to take my daughter back to college, she was home for the weekend. She's a mess knowing she'll be 3 hours away during such a time.
Before we left him last night, his last words were, "if I get the chance, do you think I should invite the nurse into bed with me?" Seems like with all the pain he's enduring, he hasn't lost his sense of humor. This is a good thing.

Later all....



 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 78
Registered: Jan-05
Well, Lar, I worry about that "one note" syndrome that some say can occur with some subs. When I was searching for a sub, I specifically looked for subs that were described as being better for music than HT and the REL Strata III seemed to fit the bill. Despite this, my belief is the main speakers should deliver most of the music. The point of using the sub to take the load off the main speakers so they are more efficient is compelling but I still can't wrap my head around that concept because of the "one note" concern.

This may be a bunch of hooey, but I've read that some subs are meant to supply the bass in a system and some are meant to augment the low end of the main speakers. The REL falls into the latter category, if that theory is to be believed.

When I first connected the Spendors to the system, the REL sub was on and was tuned to the B&W's range (which don't go as low as the Spendors) and, right away, the low end was boomy and muddy. So, I powered off the sub and played the Spendors without it. In fact, I think my first post about the Spendors mentioned that I had to turn the sub off right away. When I did turn it back on, I basically tuned it by ear and the best integration of the sub with the Spendors ended up being at 53hz - which, ironically turned out to be the low end of the Spendors range.

The REL kicks in at 53hz, not "under 50hz". I've noticed that it doesn't get much of a workout when playing classical music but kicks in when playing rock and pop. However, maybe I'm not understanding the true concept of a speakers frequency range. If the response is rated at 52hz but the range is +-6db at 40hz, then wouldn't the rolloff of the bottom end be anywhere from 34hz-46hz? If that's the case, it seems having the sub at 53hz would cover any "bottoming out"? Does someone need to enlighten/correct my understanding?

The other thing to keep in mind is my room is not as voluminous as yours. It is 12'x 19' with 8' ceiling. So, Spendors don't have any trouble filling the space with bass - but, the B&W's did have some problems and I considered the REL a must have with them.

Rick, forgot to mention, I haven't bought the mapleshade cables yet. Will probably do so on Monday when I plan to place an order for something else. <wink>

John, thanks for the clarification regarding your sub setup. I remembered the photo's of the KEF SW2000 being paired with each front speaker but had forgotten they were passive. Three subs! For a man who prefers 2.0 or, some days, 4.0. :-)

MR,

he thought the hi-res formats were sensational and said, quote, "I can see why you were raving about listening in surround" - this was prior to the 601 S3 purchase. So there you have it - from the (cough, cough) expert.

Did you give him a chance to sample the hi-res formats in stereo too or just surround? The "wow" factor will usually be present at first exposure. It certainly was for me. The real question is whether the passion lives beyond the initial investment and whether that extra cost/benefit of surround meets the "is it worth it" benchmark. Rick, I'll come join you in the cave, now. :-)


 

Bronze Member
Username: Simplymcintosh

Post Number: 79
Registered: Jan-05
Sem

We crossed posts. I'm very sorry to hear about your father-in-law's fall. Best wishes and prayers for him, you and your family on his recovery. Although, with that display of humor, he may already have the best medicine on his side.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
John - Sitting on the fence can give you a splitting ball-ache. That's one reason I try to avoid the situation.

Rantz - In one ear ... and out the other? OK, I'm half way there. Not everyone can say that.
I've just finished reading the letters to the editor portion of the Dallas Morning News and Birdcage Liner. Some don't even get it in one ear.

Sem - " ... his last words were, "if I get the chance, do you think I should invite the nurse into bed with me?"

And you say the blood is collecting where? The swelling is where?


To all - Live long and prosper. Good health to all.



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

SM - (You're so special, you get your own litle box for my reply.)

(Actually, just one of those "DOH!" moments.)

I would state it as some subs are meant to extend the bass response of the system, other subs are meant to add bass response to the system. They are not mutually exclusive, but they are difficult to combine.


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 652
Registered: Oct-04
SEM: So sorry to hear about your father-in-law. Our prayers and thoughts are with all of you in this troubling time! Keep us all posted, please.

SM - sigh - let's see if I can get this straight. If a speaker has a low-frequency down 3 db at 50Hz, and down 6db at 40Hz - it could mean a lot of things. Basically, it means that sound from the speaker at 50Hz will be 3db softer than flat, and at 40Hz it will be 6db softer than flat. BUT at that point, the speaker's response could plummet to near-zero - or fall off slowly.

The reason for my setting my sub at 100Hz was - first of all - a trial balloon. I don't know what I'll keep it at eventually - but certainly not 50Hz. Maybe 80Hz, though.

The B&Ws - as you know - go down to 60Hz pretty flat - then slope downwards in sound volume. Taking the weight off the bottom-end lets the speaker cone work more efficiently at higher frequencies. Thus, my setting.

As to your report of "boominess" - well, I get that, too, at 100Hz IF I have the sub set at too high a level. I'm trying right now to balance sub with other speakers - but it will take awhile. Once I get into the setup CD with reference tones on it, maybe it will be easier.

I don't know about all the rest of the Dawgs - who obviously know a LOT more about such things, but I'd sure try setting the sub at 80Hz, then balancing the levels - and see what happens. Your smaller speakers will thank you, I'm sure!

Still running-in our sub - and Mer is rather delighted with it, so far - except, of course, that the cabinet is vinyl-clad. She put some small sculpture on top to "blunt" the look - and, as the cabinet really does NOT vibrate - it looks pretty cool!

Now look at this - I'm writing as though I actually know what I'm talking about! Give an ole scribe some blank paper, and a keyboard. . . . .

Must away for some gas (OK, petrol!) for my beloved Camry - then back to work on taxes. (barf)

More anon. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 653
Registered: Oct-04
PS to SM - the difference between 80Hz and 50Hz is only about three notes - so there's not a lot of change involved.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 654
Registered: Oct-04
OOPS - I meant five, not three, notes. Sorry.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

The difference between 50Hz and 80Hz is 7.5 feet in wavelength.
http://www.maximacar.com/system_design2.htm
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 840
Registered: Dec-03
Ms.Mac,

You are welcome at the cave anytime. Just bring the Mac, Spendors, and the turntable. I'll supply the spare tubes and the rest.

Jan,

"Good health to all."

Thank you, and the same to you.

Cheers All!
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1415
Registered: Aug-04
Sem,

Sorry to hear about your wife's father. Hope he recovers as quickly as mine, though it seems he has more serious injuries. Parents can surely be a lot of trouble :-)

SM,

Actually, my brother brought with him, three of what he calls his reference cd's. We played those first and he was immediaately taken in by our far less expensive (than his) main speakers. His cd player is a high end KI signature Marantz and he was also very taken with the cd playback quality of the 2900. Next I played the Barb Jungr SACD in STEREO mode followed by the wonderful Matt Biance SACD - again in stereo mode. He was very impressed - said they sounded wonderful. Then, before I switched to multi-channel, I remarked about the wow factor, told him to ignore the sensation and listen to the music. Well, I can't say if he did that or not, but after listening, he made that quote to which I made reference.

I was asked to report his observations - I wasn't putting them on this forum to try to tell you stereo followers that MC rules - that is simply my preference and I respect all yours - even if I don't understand :-)

Rick

". . . why don't you chisel it in really big letters, on my cave wall."

Please note above my last comment - LOL backatcha!



 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1416
Registered: Aug-04
Larry,

"And congrats to Ms. Rantz, who's obviously in charge of "home enhancements!" Good taste, there, lady!"

Mrs Rantz's good taste lies in the fact the she chose me as a partner in life LOL! LOL! LOL!

Your comment made me chuckle. My sweetheart has many wonderful talents, but home decorating ain't one of them. She couldn't decorate a doll's house if her life depended on it. Unfortunately, housework and home decor are my burden - and I don't admit to any great talent in either field. Someone has to do it :-)

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 655
Registered: Oct-04
OK, Mr. JV smarty-pantz - how many "notes" is 7.5 feet in wavelength. 4.75 - right? Right?

Been doing a lot of tax-crud - but will get back into Sub-land tonight. I'm thinking that my settings are - for me, personally - about right. All speakers small - X-over at 100Hz - CD player on analog does the bass management - CD/DVD and FM on digital all use NAD's bass management.

Line out to the sub - which does sound pretty good, although the company says the notes will be much cleaner after about 25 hours of run-in. Will see. WAF seems ok with the sub - but now is complaining about my "el-cheapo" surround speakers.

I'm thinking seriously about some of those Orb speakers as surrounds - WAF is great with them, and from what I've read, they might be just the thing for our listening room. Mer will NOT have larger speakers as surrounds. Not that she will leave me, but heck, any and all disagreements infringe on the wunnerful world of music! Soooo. .

Mer has an all-morning class tomorrow - so, heh, heh, heh, UP goes the stereo sound - and ON goes the sub! Will burn in that sucker if it's at all possible. Neighbors both work - so I'm here in HiFi Nirvana for about 4 hours on Mondays and Thursdays. "My" time is MUSIC TIME!!!!

Got some fine, fresh salmon today - will slow-bake it with herbs, and pair it with some cauliflower steamed then put under a white cheese and nutmeg sauce, with a side of more of those Larry-picked tomatoes and some avocado under honey-mustard drizzle. A basket of large, fresh strawberries awaits washing, slicing, and pairing with vanilla bean ice cream. (burp) Cabernet Sauvignon ice-cold to wash it all down. Yep, Rick, simple-elegance. When you move down to Florid-DUH! you'll know what I mean, sir! It's 79 degrees now, and we live in shorts, golf shirts, and floppies. Sorta like My Rantz? Prob-leeee.

Friends of ours just got off the phone with Mer. From Indiana. Where they've got a blizzard. What's a blizzard? (grin)

More anon. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 656
Registered: Oct-04
My Rantz - sorry, our posts crossed.

Sooooo - I've got a cyber-partner in the world of house-cleaning and enhancing, eh? Yep - hate to admit it Online - but I do the wash, and the cooking, and the shopping, and more than half of the cleaning. Sigh.

But Mer IS a better decorator than I am. I admit that. So she "does" the Interior - and I try to keep it from mold and crud and invasions of ants that try to eat their way through everything in sight.

Carry on with vigor, sir! And long may you wave!
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1417
Registered: Aug-04
SM

About the hi-res multichannel.

"The real question is whether the passion lives beyond the initial investment and whether that extra cost/benefit of surround meets the "is it worth it" benchmark"

Well, for us it has - obviously! I've been listening long enough now not to FOOLED by the WOW factor. I also have some very good stereo SACD's which I enjoy very much, but they still don't compare to the open, airy sound of MC or what MC does for the depth of the sounstage. Things like DSOTM are fun and sound great, but they are not what my musical appreciation is about. I don't why hi-res surround hasn't done IT for you and others here, and I once may have INADVERTANTLY questioned your's and other people's equipment or abilties to set things up correctly, but that was only because I could not understand how you and they wer not hearing what I have been hearing. Our equipment is okay - it's not high end and I have never considered it to be - and with the exception of some who have some excellent toys (young and old) to play with most of you guys have gear of similar quality to ours. So really, it must surely come down to the simple fact of taste - in that none of us are the same. Not better, not worse - just not the same. Or maybe there is something else that prevents some not getting what I'm getting - or my not getting what some are.

All I can hope for is mutual respect for our preferences - even if we can't get it! Let us enjoy the music.

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 657
Registered: Oct-04
To all: In this equation - remember that a typical "Western" scale is composed of six whole notes and two half-notes.
C-D one tone. D-E one tone. E-F one half-tone. F-G one tone. G-A one tone. A-B one tone. B-C one-half tone.

thus - how many notes (whole or half-step) is 7.5 feet in wavelength? Rick? Rantz? Ghia? John? Jan? Kegger? Sem? Two Cents? Don RX-1?

Have a nice evening. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1418
Registered: Aug-04
Larry,

Let just say that things even themselves out in our household - Mrs Rantz works harder and earns more money than I - Unfortunately, this because of life and not choice.

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 658
Registered: Oct-04
Rantz: REspect you get. Support from me, you get. Though I hasten to point out here that NOT ALL SACD or DVD-A discs are created equal! Not at all. So - let me say that, for me, surround is "sometimes" better.

The one problem I do have is that I like the surround to be a "hint" of sound, rather than a bold statement. I can surely kick up the surround level - putting me in about the third row of viola players. Where I don't want to be.

so - I agree with you, sir, that surround is good, but ONLY if it's balanced (and recorded) properly.

that said - I have to admit that I listen to a majority of my non-SACD discs in stereo, not the "phony surround" that Dolby Pro-Logic or DTS Neo-6 gives to me. Maybe WHEN I, too, get better surround speakers, that will change????
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 659
Registered: Oct-04
Rantz - lets hear it for "evenness!" (grin)

You've still got a great home!!! Sure wish I could see it in person!
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1419
Registered: Aug-04
Thanks Larry,

Funny thing is - I had to show Mrs Rantz the pics of your home - looks fabulous to us. Guess we all just become 'too used" to what we have.

Yes, I agree - there are good, bad and indifferent in any format. BTW - for music I have never found anything 'special' in those digital surround modes.

Okay, off to housework then I'll attack that "other work" - Mondays are hard enough :-)

Dishes - at least Rick doesn't have to worry about them!

Later.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 660
Registered: Oct-04
Jan V. - I'm sure you've figgered it out by now, sir - and please forgive my prodding IN A KIDDING WAY.

5.3 - should be. But remember those half-tone notes. Sounds like the difference between 80 and 50Hz would be 5 notes plus a sharped one? OUt of tune, surely, on a classic scale.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 661
Registered: Oct-04
My Rantz: Yeah, I unnerstand Rick uses dishes for target practice. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 841
Registered: Dec-03
Rantz,

You know I love ya mate! It's the good natured banter I enjoy most. I know the mutual respect is always there.

Dishes? I, like you do most of the housekeeping and cooking. The "Princess" I married knows how to make one thing: RESERVATIONS. Like your bride, her talents lie elsewhere.

Larry,

It would appear you have that simple elegance down to an art form. When I grow up, I hope to be just like you. LOL!

We hope to be relocated to Florida by next September.

Sem,

Good to have you back, and sorry to hear about your father in law. I finally got my tube amp. Did you ever get a chance to stop by Response Audio?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2217
Registered: Dec-03
Just for all the dogs info and anyone interested.

I havn't had any responses lately I've been pretty busy at work and at home.
They've also put up a new firewall at work which leaves several sites inaccessable.
One of the sites not available now is the ecoustics site. Also my personal email.
So what I'll eventually do is set up my sever at home that I can connect to from work.

See yu all and glad to see all is the same with the dogs!
Rantz keep up the surround enjoyment and larry you enjoy that sub!

Everyone else hope your lives and systems are doing good!
My systems doing great and life could be worse! So all in all not bad.

LATER!

 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1420
Registered: Aug-04
Just ducked back - dishes and kitchen taken care of - that'll do me for my 'before work chores'

Rick

How could I not know you love me - especially after that lovely, sweet Valentines Day email you sent. (Kisses)
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-
-
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-
-
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Okay everyone - just foolin' around - really! :-)
_


Kegger

Hang in there mate - hope you get a handle on things.

SM

BTW - The Kimber Kable for the new rears will have to wait - I'll need 15 metres. So, I'll find some wire to replace the gold bridges for starters. The WAF only goes so far at a time - and so does the bank blance :-(

Larry

Rick's dishes - I hadn't thought of target practice - I was thinking cavemen ain't got no dishes. Ooonga ooonga toooobs oooonga!




 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
" ... how many notes (whole or half-step) is 7.5 feet in wavelength?"

Sir, you are most obviously mistaken. New math allows the answer to be: as many notes as it requires and not one note beyond that.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Asimo

Post Number: 54
Registered: Apr-04
SM

I afraid that you mixed dB and Hz terms in your last sub performance message

dB - measure sound pressure
Hz - frequency or cycles per second of the sound
For example
40 Hz at 50 dB - can be organ playing quite
1000 Hz at 90 dB - can be a clarinet playing loud
Your sub will play in the range 40Hz to 150 Hz with high accuracy, may be +/- 1dB
Your sub will play at 30 Hz with accuracy of -3dBb. If the signal at 30 Hz is 50dB your sub will deliver only 47dB
Your sub will play at 20 Hz, if ever, with accuracy of may be -6dB
That means your sub will deliver very low notes but with reducing sound pressure
Under 20 Hz your sub would not be heard at all. Another sub of higher grade ( and cost) will work all the range 20Hz -150Hz with accuracy of +/- 1dB
This is what I understand from the speakers or sub specs but if somebody has different view he is welcome to comment
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 662
Registered: Oct-04
JV - it takes 5.3 notes - Western scale. Just that, and nothing more. To go from 80 to 50 Hz, that is. Approx. Most likely. Mozart would have loved you!! You remember - in Amadeus - that Mozart was accused of writing "too many notes." Of course - as we all know - he didn't.

Asimo - very interesting, sir. My sub, however, Will play down to 15Hz, -6db. The tone burst CD that comes with the sub has tones from 15 Hz up to 100 Hz. to balance things out - and probably to show off the darned thing for company? (grin) Problem here is - as y'all know - nobody can really HEAR 15 Hz - just feel it.

In re-reading - let's see now - if Rantz's wife and Rick's wife don't have talent for housecleaning, or decorating, or cooking - hmmm. What the heck are they good at? Beats me. . .

Why do I think the answer to that is going to make me jealous? (triple grin)

Am afraid something is very rotten in my Yamaha CD player. The sound on CDs will occasionally just drop out for a second or less at a time. Sometimes in rapid succession - sometimes just a "blip" at a time. does this on most any CD, not just specific ones. Have cleaned the lens, and the CDs don't have any large scratches or gouges. It almost sounds like the old LP skip, when the needle would skipout of the groove, then back in again. Usually happened with warped LPs. Any ideas from the experts here?

All cables freshly cleaned and checked - am sure it's the player, not the NAD. Should I crack open the case and risk a look inside? And if so - what the heck should I look for? Puzzle, this is. . .

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 663
Registered: Oct-04
Yamaha add: The player sits on a 1/8" piece of gummy rubber, under which is a thin piece of cork, on each of the four legs.

On the top of the unit - at the back, I've got a plastic seal-bag full of sand, covered by a dark sock to hide it from view.

that's it. It sits on a 5/8" thick shelf in a cabinet that houses only the NAD and a bunch of DVD movies. No identifiable vibrations in the cabinet.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 422
Registered: Mar-04
Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement for my FiL. I passed them all on to Mrs. Sem, she was quite touched. (Jan, once again you had me laughing out loud, this time with your, "blood is collecting where?" comment).

Rick, no, I haven't stopped by Response Audio yet. I actually forgot all about it. Its on a dead-end street in a residential area of town. Not quite where I'd expect to see a shop like that. I'll try to set aside some time to pay them a visit.

 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1421
Registered: Aug-04
Larry,

Have you got the Yammie connected by the 5.1 analogue out, digital or both so you can switch(sorry asked before but can't remember)?. Please advise which connection is in use when you get the drop outs.

And is the drop out total or just one channel?





 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 664
Registered: Oct-04
MR - it happens mostly on the 5.1 channel. And yes, it is complete drop-out - very, very short micro-dropouts. I believe it also happens on digital, but frankly can't remember just now.

Sounds just like somebody brushed up against a switch or something. Very strange.

I thought the unit might be vibrating - but I put my hands on various parts of the case, and could feel nothing.

And yes, I've got digital cable out for regular CDs or DVDs - and the 5.1 (they call it 7.1) wires in place for the analog out. Just finished re-doing all wires and connections with cleaner. No loose wires, no sign of any corrosion.

Over. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 665
Registered: Oct-04
PS to My Rantz - I thought it might be one or more discs themselves - so when I got a series of the drop-outs, I took out the disc, examined it, put it back in - and it might or might not do the drop-out thing again. Intermittent. So it's more than the discs themselves.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 666
Registered: Oct-04
Yawn - sorry, mates, but this ole dawg is tuckered out. Will read and post more in the morning. A threat, for sure!. . .G-nite.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Larry - Take the cover off and check whether the squirrel is out of food in there.


 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2826
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

In my opinion "Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 05:26 pm:" is a very good summary of the position we have reached on the issue that started this thread, namely the proposition, from Jan:

"Music almost always sounds better when you listen just in stereo".

All I would add is that the potential is there for music to sound better in some multichannel formats. This potential is sometimes realized. I can cite a number of discs. The Handel "Messiah" DVD-A I mentioned above ("Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 02:25 am") is clear example. An exemplary recording: musical; no special effects.

When we get to the question of "what does 'better' mean?" I submit that there are issues that are not just subjective. Some people prefer lower resolution to higher resolution, true, but such people are not in search of what high fidelity is all about in the first place, it seems to me.

Given time and resources (which I do not have!) I am pretty sure one could easily design a psycho-acoustical experiment to show what multichannel can do.

What it can do is increase the resolution with which we can identify the location, in space, of individual sources of sound.

This is true of the left-right axis: though well-set up stereo can be very effective, getting the reflections from the sides and behind helps a lot.

However, it is more especially the case for the forward-back axis. I am sure one could make a test disc to prove this: one would ask "how far away from you, the listener, is sound source A compared with sound source B?" and the answer would be more easily obtained with surround than with stereo. In the same way, a given amount of effort and concentration would produce a more accurate estimate for mutichannel than for stereo.

This would not be a "matter of taste" question.

Let me plug that disc again. If anyone wanted a multichannel test disc, surely this is one of the best one could ask for. The big distraction is the sublime (to me) music. But the format delivers it in a way that stereo cannot. That is the whole issue, it seems to me.

Jan....?!

George Frideric Handel
Messiah
Coro della Radio Svizzera
I Barocchisti
Director Diego Fasolis
ARTS MUSIC 45007-6
96/24 5.1 DVD-Audio
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2828
Registered: Dec-03
BTW "" ... how many notes (whole or half-step) is 7.5 feet in wavelength?""

...has a clear answer: one.

It is 14 Hz. That is a slightly sharp and very low "A", I think.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2829
Registered: Dec-03
Sorry, got the decimal point in the wrong place. Thought it looked wrong.

7.5 feet is the wavelength of sound with a frequency of 140 Hz.

That is more like C sharp; a tad less than an octave below middle C.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 667
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - Ok, sir - so - let's get back to my original question: "how many notes on the Western scale are there between 80Hz and 50Hz?"

As you'll recall, this has to do with subwoofer crossover points. SM says she has her sub set at about 50Hz crossover - and I suggested to her that, in my opinion, that's too low. I opined that 80 or even 100 (where I have mine set) might serve her better. Haven't heard back from her yet on the issue.

My Rantz: You're just starting another day in one of my favorite wine-producing countries - and Mer and I hope it's a boffo one for y'all!

I'm trying to e-mail the Yamaha company, and I'm checking about on the Internet to see if anyone else has had problems with the S1500, aka 5770 for me (silver case, not black). And, of course, I'm taking another look at ALL hookups.

One wag suggested to me by e-mail that I just give the Yammie a good, solid smack on her top. Yep. But heck, it might come down to that! (grin)

And a fine day to all. . . .

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 668
Registered: Oct-04
Rantz: oops - guess you're ENDING a day, aren't you? (blush) I may get it right yet!
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