Reciever crossover and Speaker Size
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Anonymous | I've been looking on the net for people's thoughts on what to set your receivers crossover at, what what to set you speakers to small or large. THX recommends all set to small and 80htz. And some others say setting your mains to large is good. (If their frequency can handle it) What has anyone tried and seen any differences? |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 71 Registered: Jan-05 | If your mains play down to 20Hz loud,then by all means set them to large. I'm betting they dont so small like 95% of us do. Try 80 and 60 and see which works best. I think thats a pretty standard setup,all set to small and the x over from the reciever at 60/80 if your hooked up through the LFE. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 108 Registered: Jan-05 | I have large fronts and do not use a sub, so the decision was easy for me. I would think whatever you set your crossover at would be largly dependent on your setup and is highly subjective. If I were in your shoes, I would experiment with setting it at around 80hz, and then change the settings towards the lower limit of your front speakers to give a basis for comparision, and then determine which setting you like the best. If I had front speakers that went down fairly low(and used a sub), Im not sure I'd want to set the crossover way up at 80hz but only through experimentation will figure out which you like best. How low do your fronts go? |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 77 Registered: Jan-05 | If you use the lower limits of the mains and lets say that is 35Hz,that might be 35Hz@85db,not much use for HT. 45-50Hz maybe 95Hz or so,better but still working those woofers. Now they are doing better at 70Hz at 100db so 80 would be a good place for the sub to step in and take over the hard work. Thats how i see it but i could have all this screwed up but i know others have good mains doing 35-40Hz loud and set them to small and x over between 60 and 80 and let the sub do what its made for and relieve the mains do play better mids and not works its woofers as much. |
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Anonymous | my mains go down to 35Hz |
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Anonymous | my mains go down to 35Hz |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 78 Registered: Jan-05 | Still 60 or 80 is what i'd trey for the x over. If they are really good ay 35Hz,60 might be the way to go but that for your ears to judge |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 110 Registered: Jan-05 | If your speakers are designed to go down to 35hz, I would definitely experiment with a lower crossover. You might find the lower crossover produces an overall better sound output. Why have 'only' a sub operating in the 35-80hz range, when you have TWO speakers designed to do exactly that??? I would definitely experiment with it both ways because I would think the output would be better if you allowed both fronts to output in the 35hz+, and free up the sub for the deeper lows for which it is designed to do. I dont buy into the theory that somebody mentioned that if you shut the lows off of your fronts, that your your speakers will produce better quality mids and highs. Why not get 100% out of what your fronts are designed to output, and let your sub compliment them.......not rob them. Am I way out in left field here?? I couldnt imagine spending the money on speakers designed to go down to 35hz and shutting them off at 80hz. Heck, if you're going to do that, you might as well have bought something smaller that only goes down to 50-60hz, right?? Definitely take this with a grain of salt because I dont use a sub. Im from the old school and prefer the output of two large 15s' that go down to 24hz each.....over a single sub that goes down to 20hz. Please somebody explain why one would rob Peter(fronts)to pay Paul(sub). Isnt the entire purpose of the sub to compliment them, and add to the lows rather than to replace them??? It just seems that by doing that, your are only running your system at 80%. Why not set it up to run at 100%?? For someone like myself who lives outside of the world of 'subwoofers', what your talking about doesnt seem logical. To me, the sub should compliment and add to the effect, and not steal. But hey......what do I know. Maybe you can educate me. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 79 Registered: Jan-05 | Because it might say it plays down to 35Hz,its not much good at 80db,thats why you let the sub dso it at 105db. Can you hear the difference. Look,if your woofer which is doing the mid's and lows is going in and out like a son of a gun trying to do the low bass stuff and that same speaker is also doing mids,which will have a cleaner sound,barly working and all this energy saved for the mids or working its but off trying to do the low bass and here comes a mid signal and well,see? Let me ask you this,which will sound better,the woofer in your main thats does lots of things or a sub that is built to do one thing,add bass and add deep,loud bass when you need it? If yout HT is set up right,shut your sub off and set ther mains to lg,play a good DVD with some good bass and then do it again with them set to small and the sub on,thats your answer. Maybe 80 isnt the right x over,i always say play around with 60 or 80. You know people that know much more then me say bass capable front speakers would be able to go down to 20Hz to set them to large. Mine say 47Hz. Gee,that seems pretty good. Well yes if i dont play it very loud,well not loud enough to here 47Hz. Thats the trick,to be able to here down there,where a sub goes. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 112 Registered: Jan-05 | DS, That makes perfectly good sense. I wasnt thinking about how with many the popular new tower speakers, they are basically built with several midranges that perform double duty for both mids and lows. I guess my logic would only hold water if you owned traditional speakers with large woofers that were exclusively for bass because nothing remotely 'mid' come out of those. |
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Anonymous | And in addition, even if a "full range" speaker can "do" 30 Hz or so, how well is it doing it? The THD at those frequencies sometimes measure in the 10-15% range. Not to mention, the amplifier power it is taking to create that distortion. Also there is intermodulation distortion (doppler effect) that occurs when a driver that does bass is also playing any midrange. The drivers typically in a full range speaker aren't subwoofers, they're woofers. They extend well into the midrange. The biggest advantage of a sub is better midrange, via bi-amplification and the removal of the bass frequencies from drivers that would much rather be playing in the midrange. Even traditional speakers with say, 12" woofers usually don't cross to the midrange drivers until 400 Hz or so, well into the midrange. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 113 Registered: Jan-05 | So long as 'you' like what 'you' have, thats whats important. My speakers needed reconing this year. so I tried to replace my fronts. I shopped in the <$1,750/pair price range and thought they all sounded awful. In the end, I had my speakers reconed because there was nothing I liked. Since you think old traditional speakers are junk, I guess that makes us even. You keep your little midrangy 50lb towers that feature a stack of 5"midranges, and I'll keep my trusty old behemoths with 15"s that go down to near 20HZ each, and well both be happy. Each to his own..... |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 80 Registered: Jan-05 | Wow,dont get pissed,get a good sub. A nice svsubwoofer,say a 20-39pci arount 600 bucks will play at 20Hz@105db or so. That will take the load off the mains,no matter how new or old they are. Your 15's might go down to 20 but not clean and loud as you want it to. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 115 Registered: Jan-05 | I listened to subs, and the effect IS NOT THE SAME. That's my whole point. I've sound tested subs costing up to around $1400 and was not impressed. The direction that loudspeaker market has gone is wrong. For you to assume that traditional speakers are all distorted is at the very least, a hasty assumption to make. I have listened to what's available in todays market, and left the floor shaking my head in disappointment. To me, having two large fronts delivers a better experience than a single quality sub. I cant put my finger on it other than it's just not the same experience. I know they say that subs are non -directional....etc, etc, etc....and the sellers bury you in specifications in attempt to prove their case, but the experience simply isnt the same. Specs obviously dont tell the whole story. It's ok, I found the perfect set of front speakers........ http://www.bluelightaudio.com/vr11.html I think these would do, ya think? I wont need a sub with these. Now all I need is a winning lottery ticket and I'll be set. There probably is a perfect price/performance speaker out there somewhere for me, but I dont have the patience to scour through the many botique speaker makers to find that perfect speaker. Lord knows they arent in any major retail stores, that's for sure. Anyway, this all started because my old speakers needed reconing after 20 years of use. I figured, it would be a great time to buy something new, but after hitting every major retailer I could find, I had my old ones rebuilt and they'll be good for another 15+years. I doubt I'll be looking again anytime soon because my recent shopping experience was so disappointing. While it is true that new speakers are made of 'space age' materials so things like reconing of speakers has become obsolete, but when it comes to sound reproduction, a quality speaker of today, is no better than a quality speaker from years ago. I will admit though that the bad products of today, are superior to the bad products from 20 years ago. From what I can see, the biggest differences are the elaborate marketing techniques used by sellers to create value so they can charge exorbitant amounts of money for products not worthy their large price tags. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 81 Registered: Jan-05 | Listening to a sub at a retail store will for sure not be the way it will be in your home. If the sub is set up right,put in the right place,x over set right,you will not know its comimg from the sub,period. That said,if your for sure against a sub,try some main towers with build in subs. I can only tell you after redoing mine several times,now i get up and check my mains because that kind of bass should not be coming from them. Guess what,it isnt,its from the sub but you set in my chair and you will swear its coming from my mains. I think thats the way a sub should/will work. You wont hera that in a retail store. You will miss alot of good,true,loud bass for HT without one unless you have 10,000 front mains. |
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edster922 Unregistered guest | Hmm, you say you don't like subwoofers but the $120K speakers you linked to seem to basically be towers sitting on top of subwoofers within one cabinet...can't see how much difference that can be versus having two subs sitting near two quality towers. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 116 Registered: Jan-05 | My only point is that a pair of speakers doing 24hz is IMO, better than one sub doing 20hz. If what I see in the store soundroom doesnt impress me in the least, Im sure as heck not going to plop down my cash to bring it home for further testing....thats for sure. Im not complaining about what I have, but rather than my lack of choices from when I was shopping for a replacement. The only reason I was even looking was because mine needed work. I'll agree to disagree when you say 'Im missing out' on anything. I saw what was being sold at the major retailers, and I was so disappointed, that I had mine reconed instead of buying new. Im not saying that what anyone else may have sounds bad. Im just saying that it isnt for me, and the lack of alternatives while I was shopping was a frustrating experience. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 82 Registered: Jan-05 | Well yes,those speakers would be great at 24Hz but the trick is 105db,they wont do that unless your reciever is 1500 watts or so. Thats what a sub does, doesnt make your speakers try to do something they cant and takes the strain off your reciever. But if a sperate sub isnt for you,find some powered towers. Of course if you dont do HT,dont bother. If you do HT and dont have something to reproduce bass below 30Hz at 105-110db,you are missing a lot of sound. |
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Bronze Member Username: MisoSlovakia Post Number: 13 Registered: Feb-05 | paul-5.1 means 5 channels+one subwoofer output that is LFE,which is independently recorded and contains very low freq.so there is no way you can play(hear)it without subwoofer,through your mains,but you are probably into 2ch anyway... |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 83 Registered: Jan-05 | I guess i'm not explaining the difference between mains that say 20Hz and a sub that plays 20Hz. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 135 Registered: Jan-05 | So long as you like what you have, that's all that counts. I shopped the 'botique' market and decided to take a pass. The sound was too weak and dainty for what I have grown accustomed, and I couldnt seriously considering purchasing any of that stuff because I dont want to go backwards. I compared, and they lost. If Ultimate Electronics, Circuit city, or Best Buy ever decide to stock some real speakers, and move away from the 4ft tall bookshelf speaker trend, I'll surely give them a listen. each to his own.... |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 84 Registered: Jan-05 | Your going backwards if you listen to HT and dont use a sub. Thats the bottom line. You keep talking about mains that go down as low as a sub. Sure,thatwould be nice. Some say 35 or even lower. But like i've said, there is a difference going down to 30Hz and not hearing it and going down to 30Hz and hearing it. If your happy without a sub and just want to keep your mains,good for you but your missing a hell of a lot that your mains just cant reproduce. I'm not missing anything. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 138 Registered: Jan-05 | Like I said, I've sound tested the best the major retailers had to offer and it was nothing but weak 'botique' at best. They couldnt pay me to take the stuff off their hands. Dont forget, I tried to buy something new recently but couldnt find anything worth a damn. Some of the center channel and surround combos were pretty sweet, but I didnt need those. There wasnt a front/sub combo worth spit. If you're into classical music, they're probably right up your alley though. |
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New member Username: AlphabetCape TownSouth Africa Post Number: 3 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul, I am keen to know what you where used to. I see you mention 15" Woofers, but what else? I am just curious as I agree with your sentiment about bookshelfy speakers. Cerwin Vega has a set of speakers that I would like to audition, the Classic CLSC-215 that features 2 x 15" woofers and a sensitivity of 97Db. I would just love to run them on their own and with a sub to hear the difference! |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 85 Registered: Jan-05 | Abe and Paul,which do you think could do the best job of the LFE,a main speaker thats rated down to 35Hz of a reciever that doing 125watts per channel or a sub rated down to 30Hz with its own amp of 350watts and a 12" cone? |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 151 Registered: Jan-05 | What else do I have?...if you're interested, I have it listed on my profile. As for my bookshelf comment, I realize that was a bit harsh, but we're just having a friendly 'jabbing' session. I've heard they cheapened and ruined the D9 in the late 80s-early 90s with their subsequent versions of the speaker. I've never listened to them though to confirm. Providing they are powered with an adequate amp, nothing remotely compares in the moderate price range. I have no delusions that the D9s are audiophile speakers, but those who blindly claim they are distortion plagued or are substantionally 'off-key' as if they were Peavey monitors have no clue about what they say. I have seen the CLSC-215 on the web, and that is a mean looking setup! I'd be interested to see how good they sound. The one thing that is certain is that specs dont tell the whole story, and more people should learn to listen with their ears, and not their eyes. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 152 Registered: Jan-05 | DS, I sound tested some fairly expensive setups, and they lost. What else can I say?? I'd name names, but Im not here to insult specific manufacturers. The new stuff sounds good, and I dont deny that, but their output is best at lower levels, IMO. If you want to watch 'saving private Ryan', and want an earth moving experience......the new stuff is weak and uninspiring. If I owned them, they'd probably spend more time in the repair shop than on my HT floor. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 86 Registered: Jan-05 | Oh,ok. Enjoy your setup. That is a funny statement,if you watch SPR and want earth moving experience,the new stuff is weak. I get this thread now,i know you and your pulling my leg. Jokes on me. |
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New member Username: TamesDecatur, IL USA Post Number: 4 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul... Just curious... you said you've checked out Best Buy, CC (ew), and Ultimate electronics... I was just curious as to your location becuase I know on the west coast, or more northwest we have a division Best Buy owns called Magnolia Audio Video. I don't claim to be any sound professional--I just work at Best Buy. I know our lineup consists of mostly Klipsch Synergy (I'm buying a pair of F-3s), Athena, and some Bose systems too. I've never been a big fan of Bose becuase although they claim to do "Sound by research", it seems they just started the trend of tiny speakers with a subwoofer crossover at around 200+ Hz which I hate. I do believe in huge mains, and call me old fashion but I think it sounds amazing. The Klipsch F-3s have dual 8" drivers in each speaker, and I'm going to see how they handle before I think about getting a sub. If i don't need one then I won't use one. The sad thing is I know I'll be missing out on 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 specific LFE channels. We'll see though. |
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New member Username: AlphabetCape TownSouth Africa Post Number: 4 Registered: Feb-05 | Hi DS. Ok, just my opinion on your question. LFE I would channeling to a powerful sub, off course, but when for instance listening to music, I would prefer a pair of big floorstanders with big woofers doing the honors, maybe not even bringing the sub into play, but that depends on the music. Not an easy question to answer as in the ned it depends on personal preference. Some people may enjoy their satelite speakers with a powerful sub, but I am probably still old school as far as that is concerned - everything big and include a big sub as well. Enjoy all the feedback! |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 168 Registered: Jan-05 | Tim, Im in Kansas city, and in this area, Ultimate electronics has the best selection. They easily beat both BB and Circuit city in selection and tend to carry more high end stuff. IE..They sell a lot of Sunfire Amps and separates, and the YammiZR9 and all those goodies. I did listen to Klipsch at Ultimate Electronics. I dont remember the model numbers, but they had the big ones with dual 10" midranges selling for about $1,000 each. Combined with their $1,500sub that went down to 20hz....it sounded OK. Im dont want to knock them, but I wasnt impressed. I concede that they probably produce a more 'audiophile' quality sound, but I cannot hear the improved difference. All I hear is that they come accross as weak compared to my trusty old speakers, and I doubt speakers like those could survive me. I would have those speakers wrecked in no time. As for the LFE channel??........you do realize that those low frequencies are channeled to your fronts when no sub is hooked up, right? DS's comment about losing the low frequencies was incorrect. The only way you will lose out on any lows would be if your speakers are incapable of reproducing them. It wont be for the lack of signal being sent. The low signals are only channeled through the LFE when you hook up a sub. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 96 Registered: Jan-05 | Didnt i say because they cant reproduce? Mostly under 80Hz for LFE. I think we get confused when others say bass and mean LFE or the other way around. I know this whole thread is starting to confuse me.LOL Botton line,its almost always better to use a sub even if you have some great mains. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 182 Registered: Jan-05 | Only if you have girlyman fronts |
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New member Username: TamesDecatur, IL USA Post Number: 5 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul, I'm kind of curious. You referred to the 12 inch speakers in the Klipsch speakers as "midranges." That's incorrect. These are the low frequency drivers. The horn on any Klipsch speaker is both a midrange and HF driver. That's why they are so big. Also, I'm kind of curious how single 15s can carry more bass than multiple 10 or 12" speakers. I play bass, and basically I'm using the same theories that apply to bass amplification. 15" speakers do best at reproducing low-mid type frequencies, between 80-200Hz. 80Hz and below, I rely on a cabinet with 4 10" speakers to hit heart-stopping lows. If I want a true earth-shaking thump, I'd use a single 18" with a lot of power. Just because a speaker is bigger doesn't mean it produces more lows. It just means it's louder. If you don't believe me check out some intenesly insane bass cabinets here: http://www.philjonesbass.com/Products%20page.htm These cabs have 5" driver arrays that would kill any 10 or 15. Just my two cents becuase I'm curious. I'm not trying to start anything. Also, I think one of the main reasons systems started dealing with the whole 5.1 HTIB setups we see today with rather wimpy satellites and a sub is becuase the sub's crossover is set to about 400Hz or higher, thus taking over the duties of any large speakers. My theory still stands true. Louder does not equal better. |
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New member Username: TamesDecatur, IL USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Feb-05 | Also, (to everyone) the thing dealing with what speakers have what freqency response is getting really confusing. I have a pair of Sony headphones that have a frequency response of 20Hz-20KHz. I guess my headphones win becuase they don't require a subwoofer and they go down to 20Hz. Right? Simply becuase a driver's frequency response is listed as a certain number does not mean it is going to perform this number the same as the rest of the frequencies. I honestly doubt any standard receiver has the power capacity to drive any mains or subs or surrounds all with flat frequency response. If the whole spectrum was flat on a speaker, you'd have invented the perfect speaker. If at one volume I could hear a 35Hz tone the same volume as a 4000Hz tone, I would be super amazed. Paul (as an example) do you know the rolloff of your mains? What frequency does it start and how many dB is it? |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 184 Registered: Jan-05 | Tim, So long as you like what you have, that's all what's important. All I can say is that I tried to replace my fronts recently, and I auditioned some fairly expensive sets, along with subs, and I was unimpressed. IMO, todays new botique front speakers/subs are weak and cant hold a candle to a pair of large beefy traditional fronts. My listening is HT only, and I want a large soundstage while watching movies, and the new 'bookshelf' fronts/subs dont deliver the desired effect. You're asking me to spout specs on a 20 year old set of speakers?? All I can tell you is what they sound like, and they make the new stuff sound 'botique' in comparrison. That's the best way I can describe it. People should be more concerned with what they hear with their ears, and feel in their bones........rather than rattle off numbers from a spec sheet. I'll admit that some of speakers I auditioned had a pretty impressive 'wrap-sheet', but what I was hearing and feeling was another thing entirely. Plus,if I bought them, I'd feel like I'd have to baby them for fear of damaging them. I'd be in blown tweeter/midrange heaven, for sure. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 185 Registered: Jan-05 | Tim, Your comment about listed frequency responce was on target. Something tells me that several of these subs on the market were tested for their low end in a closet or something. somehow, the numbers dont jive with their output. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 99 Registered: Jan-05 | Stick with your killer CV and dont go shopping anymore. I think you'll be happier. If i had some great mains that played down to 25-30Hz@105db,i'd still get a sub because its only going to make my mains better. |
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New member Username: AlphabetCape TownSouth Africa Post Number: 5 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul. I have commented and also read all the comments and after auditioning a pair of Cerwin Vega V12F's and V15F's yesterday, I think I know what you mean! These speakers could possibly fit your profile as they are about producing sound without the frilly bits. The sound is in your face, the bass out of this world, honesty I don't have words to describe them! You have to listen them yourself and you would understand what I mean. Now am I going to buy a set? I am not sure! At the moment it is between Cerwin Vega V12F and a speaker manufacturer in South Africa, Sonor Audio, but the two cannot be compared - the one is like a V8 Mustang, whilst the other is like a Audi Quattro - Brute force versus refined power. Oh, what a lovely dillema to be in! |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 209 Registered: Jan-05 | Abe, Im not familiar with the newer models, and can only speak for my classic 20year old behemoths. Im glad to hear that the new models havnt gone 'botique' like the rest of the speaker manufacturers. Mine were in need of reconing, and I thought it was a good time to buy something new. After listening to the new speakers on the market, I gave up and had my 'behemoths' reconed instead. I agree that they arent as refined, but the clean undistorted power and huge soundstage they create is without comparrison. The funny thing is that when I was shopping for something new, it wasnt the refinement of the new speakers that I noticed, but rather how weak and 'petite' they sounded in comparrison. Heck, the best thing I found was a $3500 front/sub combo and my reliable old friends would blow them away in a second. It wasnt even close. They can keep their 'petite' stuff because I'm not buying. |
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Silver Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 110 Registered: Jan-05 | Paul,you do know big isnt where its all at. CV always known for bass,hell i had a pair when i was a kid in the late 60's but there's more to a good speakers then in your face but i'm happy you like yours and stick to them but i'm thinking the rest of the few million owners of what you call petite speakers as compared to the CV,well you being right and the rest wrong and your the only one that seem to know how much better they are but in other forums,they are just about never talked about seems odd at best to me. But of course none of this matters as long as your happy with them,thats what counts. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 212 Registered: Jan-05 | DS, Im not saying that you're wrong. Im only saying that I personally dont like them. |
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New member Username: AlphabetCape TownSouth Africa Post Number: 6 Registered: Feb-05 | Hi Guys. This is becoming more interesting by the day! I am currently shopping around for floorstanding speakers to be used in a HT and stereo setup. Havent done this in years and I was amazed by how much things have changed in this arena. As I said previously, I loved the sound of the CVs, particularly the HUGE bass(Used to be a bass player years ago), but sometimes sanity has to prevail and I will probably go for another brand which is unknown in this forum - speakers from a local company that build speakers exclusively. These speakers have a much more refined sound than CVs, but the promise of bigger things is always there. I will probably have to test drive B&W as well, but thusfar I was most impressed by the local speakers and Monitor Audio floorstanders(That is now besides the CVs!) |
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Silver Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 111 Registered: Jan-05 | B&W's are known everywhere as a good speaker. I happen to own them. Better ones out there,yes. As for floor standing which is what i have,the 603's,i would look real hard at bookshelf size on stands and get 4,mains and fronts and spend the money you save on a real good sub.Axiom M22ti are 400 bucks apair and are very nice. The bass takes so much out of the speaker and amp,in most cases it only makes sence to get a sub to free up your amp and to make your mains sound and work better. One thing about B&W's,at least mine and they are 5 years old,they can be a tad brite but boy,can you here those highs. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 220 Registered: Jan-05 | I'd probably like their Nautilus 800s. Whoah.... I'd pass on their bookshelf fronts that pose as floostanding towers, but the 800s look scary good. Of course they cost what some people might consider the price of an auto, but that's besides the point. If my speakers somehow died(they never will since they're indestructable, unlike the botique brands), the first speaker I would soundtest would be the behemoth sized CV classic towers with the twin15s" since nobody else makes real fronts anymore for less than the price of an average car. Abe, yes, I agree. This thread is growing out of control....heh |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 221 Registered: Jan-05 | Abe, I also liked your car analogy with speakers so I'll do my own..... Have you seen the movie "Fast and the Furious" with Vin Diesel?? http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/universal_ pictures/the_fast_and_the_furious/_group_photos/paul_walker4.jpg On on hand, you have the small souped up japanese compact car with a wild hot-pink paintjob......"botique brands" Then at the end during the climax of the movie, they bring out the classic american muscle....... Sure, it doesnt have electronic fuel injection, nitrous kit, or many of the fancy little electronic gadgetry or refinements of the japanese cars, but sometimes there is no substitute for raw power. Which car is better?? I guess that depends on the tastes of each individual shopper. Personally, I wouldnt get caught dead riding in one of those 'hot pink' cars with a frilly paintjob. Give me the black GTO!!! |
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New member Username: TamesDecatur, IL USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul, If you would, explain to me what you consider a botique speaker. From my standpoint it looks like you're classifying any "new" speaker that isn't massive and bearing a 15 that sucks power to get sound as "botique." Please explain. I'm confused. Thanks. |
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Bronze Member Username: Marcuslee842Chicago, IL U.S.A. Post Number: 12 Registered: Mar-05 | Okay, it's like this. there is no reason to argue about this, it's like you said with the cars. Clever description but you missed the most important part it's about speed. Same thing with sound redardless of what anyone of you say neither is better or worse than the other. The fact is this, people by subs because it's usually easier to achieve high decibels of low bass in that manner. However that does not mean it is impossible to achieve the same results with a VERY GOOD amp/reicever and VERY GOOD large speaker. That also on the reverse angle means that just because you have large speakers and a decent amp/reciever dosen't mean that the bass will beat a very good sub. It's just a matter of choice, like skates or roller blades, white or wheat, paper or plastic. There should not even be a debate about this. It's just personal preference not best performance. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 223 Registered: Jan-05 | Tim, Lately I've been on a bit of a tirade against new speakers in general. I recently went on a shopping spree for new front speakers and didnt like anything that I heard. I've listened to fronts and subs exclusively, and didnt like the effect they deliver. I cant pinpoint exactly why except that they dont deliver the desired effect that I seek. All the the midpriced towers/subs(<$3500/pr including sub) that I've tested fall short in what I want from my system, and the search was a frustrating one because I was all set to spend some cash, and came up empty. The only reason I was shopping was because I figured it was a great time to upgrade because my old speakers needed reconing. In the end, I had my old speakers reconed because I didnt like anything new. yea sure......there are some I like, but they are as expensive as the average car, and Im not willing to spend that on speakers at this point in time. My big gripe is that there arent any big fronts in this price range because that is what I want. I hope that helps explain my frustration. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 224 Registered: Jan-05 | Marcus, I agree with some of what you say except that a sub can deliver equally what a pair of big fronts can..... I've listened to and tested up to $2000/pr speakers playing along with a $1500/sub thats rated down to 20hz. If you look at the specs, that system should blow my lowly 24hz pair of fronts out of the water, but I realized at that time that specs dont tell the whole story. I dont know what it is, but they left me disappointed and shaking my head. Yea, they probably were better quality, but the soundstage wasnt nearly as impressive. |
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Silver Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 112 Registered: Jan-05 | Your also comparing in your house vs a retail store where nothing will sound like it should. Like i said,i'm sure the CV's are great and everyone else,for whatever reason is missing out. |
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New member Username: TamesDecatur, IL USA Post Number: 8 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul, I understand your situation. If you can't tell, I've been pretty up-to-date on what your opinion is and many reasons as to why it is this. It just seems you keep repeating the same information over and over and over. All I was wondering is what makes you consider a certain speaker "botique?" I completely understand what it is you're doing, WHY you like your CVs and why new speakers haven't woed you yet. Again, no arguements, I just simply want to know what makes pretty much all new speakers "botique" to you. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2261 Registered: Dec-03 | To the original question on this thread! "I've been looking on the net for people's thoughts on what to set your receivers crossover at, what what to set you speakers to small or large. THX recommends all set to small and 80htz. And some others say setting your mains to large is good. (If their frequency can handle it) What has anyone tried and seen any differences?" It all comes down to the size/capabilities of your speakers and your taste for bass. If you want to get "propper" and have smaller speakers also, then by all means set the xover to 80hz and adjust the sub output to level. That's the easiest setting. It gets more complicated and more taste driven when you have large and small speakers then throw in your center which probably doesn't go that low. You should try varying settings and see what works for your system/room and suits your tastes. If you have giant front speakers that go down to 35hz or less "without being down 6db" Then I would set them to large and the rest of my speakers based on there size/capabilities. I generally tend to use medium size speakers on the rest of the system with large fronts and center channel. My center channel has 2 8" drivers and a big horn http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=365&s=specs Which says it goes down to 45hz so I set my fronts to large and everything esle to 55hz as to cut the other speakers off before they bottem out and let my subs do the rest. Now I run a prepro with all seperate amps that are mated well to each speaker they provide power to. But some have hinted towards the idea that if your running a reciever it can be beneficail to your reciever and your speakers to set the xover at somewhere around 60 to 80hz and let the sub take over. That has some merrit to it as bass uses much more power from your reciever to produce more heat and strain the unit so unloading some of that work onto the sub can yeild very desirable results. "ADDING A 2 CHANNEL AMP TO YOUR MAINS CAN WORK ALSO" ___________________________________________________________________ As to some of the larger speakers of yesteryear. I have some thoughts as to why you don't see them anymore and that actually ties into this threads beginning! Most of what is bought and sold these days is home theatre with a reciever "trying" to power 5-7 speakers in 1 unit! that's asking a lot of a piece of gear. (back in the day you had 1 big amp with 2 channels) So by building these recievers the smaller speaker came about to accomadate them .Then the sub was needed to fill in where the smaller speaker left off. If you go into your high end shops that sell your macs and krell's then you'll see the larger speakers associated to the "larger" gear. As paul mentioned look at the b&w 801 nautilus (incredable speaker) but no reciever is going to power those babies, you need a dedicated amp and no one but the extremely rich is going to use them as home theatre. So if you want a stereo system versus a home theatre setup and shop at the dedicated 2 channel stores you'll find the big amps and big speakers but there even more expensive then before as not as many people shop for those anymore. They want small and cute to go with there furniture instead of there furniture being there system. I have probably 10 to 15 pairs of speakers and some date back to the "large era" cerwn vega D9's yamaha dj speakers with 15"drivers "like the vega's" epi magnus a24 with dual 12" drivers All the above will blow the doors off the house without much to stand in there way. And that is fine if that's the sound you want "I do occasionally" But as of the past few years I want a more refined and cleaner sound then those can offer so I also have some b&w and jm/labs speakers that when setup right and powered by good gear can sound amazing with incredable imaging and detail but lack that kick of the old giants that I own and love. I've been able to find a middle ground that works for me and that's JBL AND KLIPSCH. No I'm not talking the JBL AND KLIPSCH from best buy and such but the reference or upper studio lines from these manufacturers. (And they tend to be of the larger variety) To me they give little up in all the catagories but cover more than most. And the best atribute for me is there very effecient , some extremly! "not much power needed to drive them" And that's great as recently I've gotten into tube audio gear which generally have lower power than solid state but make up for it in the finer points. There are trade offs pretty much with every speaker and setup you go after. The best thing to do is get the setup that does more of what "you" like but remember there are others out there who have different preferences than you, and your setup may lack to much in the areas they find important! I have found my NIRVANA! TUBE GEAR WITH KLIPSCH SPEAKERS! Still a work in progress but isn't it allways!  |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2262 Registered: Dec-03 | Paul: "If my speakers somehow died(they never will since they're indestructable, unlike the botique brands), " Actually they can I've blown my 20 year old D9's a couple times. Tweeters and mids! Doing Dj work or playing parties really working them! You'd be suprised at the power handling on the reference series of klipsch. I should know I've blown many a speaker in my day from jammin! |
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Silver Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 113 Registered: Jan-05 | Set your speakers to lg if they are bass capable. It took awhile for me to find out what that was. Well i found it,its 20Hz. Thats why 95% set them to small. Center speaker isnt and doesnt need to go low as that information doesnt go to the center. I wouldnt get those 801's for 2 reasons. For that much money and the only go down to 30Hz and like you said,no reciever will work them and it had better be a hell of an amp at on 90db sensitivity. I've never blown a speaker,never. Not even my CV. I belive thats just what you are missing with something like the D9's,refined and cleaner. I'll keep my botique over the monsters. I think its only like .5% of DVD LFE is below 25Hz. Botique will beat a monster above that every time. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 230 Registered: Jan-05 | C'mon DS, Im certainly not going to waste the time buying and bringing something home for a test that didnt already impress me in the first place. As an audiophile, are you suggesting that I buy something that doesnt sound good? |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 231 Registered: Jan-05 | Kegger, I used to do the same stuff when I was a kid. What other equip did you use in your setup for dances?? I used to run two amps(one for each set of speakers), and had some mach1s too. The CVs survived my college days too without a scratch. Needless to say, they got their share of use. Apparently the circuit breaker did their jobs on mine because I've had to replace a few fuses, and press the little red button to reset the tweeters, but never had to replace anything. Maybe I was lucky. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 232 Registered: Jan-05 | Kegger, I thought it was needless to say that if you're one of those people who can spend that kind of cash on a pair of speakers(B&W800s), that you wont be powering it with a $1000 receiver. My only complaint is that large speaker market has virtually vanished. If I were big into classical music or some other format where my speakers would obviously come up short, I would upgrade, but that isnt the case. As it stands, they're only for movies, and I like their performance for movies better than anything I could find in stores. The only time I use my stereo for music is if I host a party, and even then it's only Rock music that I play at low to moderate levels. Movies are a different story though. BTW, I liked your picture. I have one of mine that I'll post if I ever get the film developed. PS.....clean off your darn coffee table!!.....LOL j/k |
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Silver Member Username: ShokheadLakewood, CA USA Post Number: 114 Registered: Jan-05 | I said its not going to sound as good as it will in your house and it could work the other way to. Got to take that and the spec's into consideration. I never said buy something that doesnt sound good,come on. I listened to so many sets of speakers before going with B&W. Everybody loved Klipsch but i hated the horns as tweeters. I'm not going to talk you out of what you like,the CV's but dont do a diservice to the other speakers,the botique as you like to call them,it such horsesh$t. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2267 Registered: Dec-03 | Ds and Paul you guy's need to leave each other alone. And understand that many people have completely different tastes so that not all speakers and setups will be equal in everybodys minds. You both have good points for backing "your choices" of "quality". If I was paul I would still use a sub for movies but leave my xover on the fronts set to large! I would not say it's neccasary but I do feel for movies you'd get much better thump on explosions and such! Having said that a pair of D9's doing home theatre is pretty dam impressive! And if movies is all you do/music is seldom then I see not much improvement if any in a speaker upgrade for him! But I fall on the side of DS for quality music playback that the "botique" speakers as paul likes to call them do a much better job and those in turn almost allways need a sub! By the way I've allways thought the horn on a pair of klipsch speakers wasn't that great until I heard the one used in the big guys which is the same one used in the center channel, then you mate those to tube amp power and your in a whole new league! "I wish everyone could hear it" P.S. please do not bash The B&W nautilus 801 speaker, as it is my dream pair! "And yes I have plenty of power for them if need be" _____________________________________________________________________ "I used to do the same stuff when I was a kid. What other equip did you use in your setup for dances??" Basically just a mixing board and 2 cd players with 2 big crown amps. _______________________________ "My only complaint is that large speaker market has virtually vanished" I agree but I believe it's because of my above statement that everything is 5 channel or more recievers that lend themselves "towards" 5-7 smaller speakers. (Yu know the whole home theatre boom) It's cheaper and easier to place 5 to 7 small speakers vurses some giants all over the place. "I like it but hey" Yes If you want the big speaker it's hard to find and you have to pay for them. "as I do like" _________________________________________________________ Just as a side note I do agree that allmost all speakers need a sub for movies and that "I" believe all can benefit from one! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2268 Registered: Dec-03 | "Kegger, I thought it was needless to say that if you're one of those people who can spend that kind of cash on a pair of speakers(B&W800s)," No I can't spend that kind of cash but I've been in the presense of those speakers quite a bit and they never fall short of breath taking for me! I've had to wheel and deal and suffer and build/modify to get what I've got! The mess is normal I didn't want anyone calling me an audiophile. LOL |
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