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Underpowered amps, wouldn't that apply to all speakers!

 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 21
Registered: Jan-05
Im a little confused how you can't damage your speakers. Underpowered amps would apply to the majority of people wouldn't it? I say this because if somone had 2 100 watt speakers (200watts total) and an amp that outputs about 60 watts per channel (like the majority of amps), thatd be 120 watts into the speakers, so thereby leaving a further 80watts music power for the speakers to potentially handle. Amplifiers that give a perfect 100watt per channel output would cost a fortune, more than your actually paying for your speakers!
So, here's the main question...If that was the scenario and I turned the amplifier up to full, would the speakers output 120watts with quality because the speakers could POTENTIALLY handle 200watts, or would it damage the speakers.
Hope someone can tell what i'm trying to get across here... Thanks
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

The answer is now, as it always has been, SPEAKERS DON'T GOT NO WATTS. That the amplifier is run under the point of constant clipping is the best way to keep your speakers undamaged. Turning the amplifer up "to full" is a sure way to clip any amp, no matter the power rating.




 

Bronze Member
Username: Usa2k4

Post Number: 27
Registered: Dec-04
Yep, exactly as J. Vigne said. It doesn't matter how powerful your speakers are so don't think it's safe when the speakers can handle more power than the amp's output. Clipping occurs more often with low power amps because the users tend to increase the volume control more and more to get the loudness they prefer. Also, low bass demands much more power from the amplifier so playing music with lots of bass at "higher" volume may also introduce clipping.
 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 25
Registered: Jan-05
So basically, you get acustomed to your own amp by listening and over time you find out what the maximum volume your amp can output to you speakers before clipping.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

More or less, you learn what your amplifer sounds like at the point it has given everyting it has and begins to clip the waveform. This is reducing the idea to very simple terms. Different types of music make different demands on the system. There are certainly instances where the speaker will give out long before the amp reaches clipping. The best rule is not much more than this - when you hear distortion, turn the volume down.


 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 29
Registered: Jan-05
Thanks Vigne, I'm getting my system soon so Ill bare all the clipping info in mind. Im sure I'll get the speakers to play my music as loud as I want way before they could start clipping anyway as its my bedroom we're talking about here!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 64
Registered: Nov-04
wut do u mean by "a fortune" for a 100W reciever? u can get a HK 3480 with 120W advertised, probably 100W actual for about $300 at jr.com. if you want to be using all 100W of power then i would assume u are willing to pay more than $300 on a pair of speakers. bear in mind that the majority of people cant even use over 50W of power before blowing their ears out.
 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 32
Registered: Jan-05
I said a fortune for an amplifier but i thought that recievers couldn't drive speakers...infact what's the difference between an amplifier and a reciever? And you're right, about 50-70 watts of power is all you can listen to really in your home before deaphening yourself.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Usa2k4

Post Number: 34
Registered: Dec-04
Receiver is an integrated amp (amp+preamp) with tuner. Even though at normal listening, you rarely exceed 20W/channel but a pluck of string bass can easily swallow 100W or more momentarily and therefore it can easily strangle a 50-70W amp. At low level listening, you may not notice distortion from the speakers but since the amp can't provide enough juice, it could not give you clean sound. That's why 100W/channel is pretty much a "standard" today. But as J. Vigne said, it also depends on the type of music you're listening. Some will have more demands than others. For low power amps, a powered subwoofer will help greatly because it will handle all low bass in your system, leaving all the power of your amp to reproduce mid bass, midrange and high end to give you clean high end sound and at the same time to minimize the chance of clipping at high volume.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

As anyone who has used a 3 watt Single Ended Triode amplifier will tell you, it isn't the watts. It's what you do with them that's important.

The only specification on a speaker's spec sheet that is of any importance (or more importantly means anything as written) is the efficiency of the speaker as a whole system. Of minor significance is the impedance, but unless you are seeing the entirity of the speaker's impedance swing, a simple 8 Ohm spec means nothing. It is, however, this impedance swing that will tell you a lot about how difficult a speaker will be to drive by any amplifier. If the speaker contains a complex crossover the amp has to slug its way through the capacitors, resisitors and inductors before it can get to the voice coil to try to make it behave. All this amounts to one speaker rated at 89dB may not play as loud with a 50 watt amplifier as another speaker with the same sensitivity spec.

What the sensitivity/efficiency spec begins to tell is how loud the speaker is likely to play with a given wattage amplifier. The scale for this was established back in the 1970's to indicate how much power is needed to achieve a desired volume level (SPL).

The most basic answer I can give is to say when moer volume is desired, it is always easier to get the SPL from a more efficient speaker than by buying wattage. But there are so many variables in that simle statement that it almost isn't worth making unless I can give you my thirty five years of experience with audio.

The bass response of a speaker is determined by the size of the box and the efficiency of the speaker system. You can take a small driver in a large box and make deep bass. A smaller driver always will be faster in its response than a comparably manufactured large driver. An amplifier with headroom will sound louder than one without headroom. Unless the one with headroom has a poorly regulated power supply. Subwoofers seldom, if ever, sound like the speakers you're trying to match them with.

There are lots of things to learn if you want to understand audio. The two most important, in my opinion are: there's no free lunch, any benefit that gives you one thing will have at least two things it screws up; and, don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see or hear, if that much.

Try this list for some defintions and explanations:

http://www.cardinalproaudio.com/main/terms.htm

and

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/56618.html


 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 34
Registered: Jan-05
Cardinalproaudio is quite helpful..thanks. Is it absoulutely necessary that I buy an subwoofer though. Seeing Vigne, as you have so much experience I'll tell you what the situation is and then you can make your assumption on what would be best. I've already posted many things about this but I think its about time to sum them all up into one.
Im going to buy the Wharfedale Diamdond 9.1s and probably the Cambridge Audio A5 amplifier. I'll bi-wire my speakers to the amp, then connect the amp to my pc. This system will be for use in my bedroom and thats why I say i wont need more than 100watts max. Plus that, i suspect the speakers would produce significant amounts of bass for the room. I listen to metal, rock, indie a lot of the band Muse which has quite a lot of synth in it but I know when the speakers are set up, I'll be in paradise because of the difference compared to my crappy Cambridge Soundworks 4.1 surround system.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Is there a question in there for me?


 

nout
Unregistered guest
hahahaha
 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 35
Registered: Jan-05
Lol ye sorry bout that Vigne, I can confuse myself sometimes so nothing actually makes sense. All I want is your view on how suitable a pair of Diamond 9.1s and a cambridge audio a5 amp would be for a bedroom say 14x10 feet. I don't have the money or the room for a subwoofer so is it going to make that much difference if i don't have one, considering I'll be using them mostly for music at no more than 100W. What volume would you say will start to clip my speakers with songs that have more bass in due to not having a subwoofer? (the A5 outputs 60wpc with 8ohms speakers and the diamonds are 6ohm speakers)
 

J. Vugne
Unregistered guest

My view is if you like the speakers and amp they should be fine. As far as volume is concerned you can do some math to tell the potential loudness you might achieve. The Diamonds are listed at 86dB with one watt in @ one meter and a 6 Ohm load. I see your proposed amplifier is rated at 60 watt per channel. I don't know how much power it will actually produce into a real world 6 Ohm load but let's assume it will likey double its power into 4 Ohms (as most solid state amplifiers of any quality will probably do) and say it can likely manage 90 watts into a 6 Ohm load. From the cardinal site:
"Efficiency
The ratio, usually expressed as a percentage, of the useful power output to the power input of a device. The efficiency of a speaker system is the SPL the unit produces at a 1 W RMS input power level measured 1 meter from the unit. Doubling the input power raises the SPL 3 dB. Doubling the number of enclosures raises the SPL 3 dB. Doubling the input power and the number of enclosures raises the SPL 6 dB. Doubling the distance (near field) lowers the SPL 6 dB."

Your 86 dB becomes 89 dB when the second speaker is added, then becomes (rounded) 91 dB with the additional power of the amp into a 6 Ohm load. That's measured at one meter from the speaker, and, if you sit one additional meter away, you will lose 3 dB and an additional 3 dB for each additional meter from the speakers. Let's assume you're at three meters from the speakers and that will get us back to 91-3=88-3=85 dB in your room with just one watt of power. You've got at least 89 more to use. With that as a base we can figure every time we double the power we'll get 3 dB increase in volume.
1 watt = 85 dB
2 watts = 88 dB
4 = 91
8 = 94
16 = 97
32 = 100
64 = 103
128 = 107 dB.

If we assume your 90 watt amp can swing just a bit of headroom, what is termed music power, you'll easily achieve that 107 dB figure.

"Music Power
This is a power rating generally applied to high fidelity amplifiers for tones of short duration. It takes into account the fact that most amplifiers can produce a greater amount of power in short bursts than they can continuously. The rationale is that music is made up of such bursts rather than sustained single frequencies. It is higher than continuous power ratings for the same amplifiers. It is measured at a signal frequency of 1000 Hz for a specified distortion."

That, of course, doesn't add in the room gain from reflected surfaces which could add another three dB to the overall sound on peaks. That is by most calculations the threshold of hearing damage.

Here's a caluclator that might help you understand more about what you might hear:

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Without a subwoofer I would suggest you place the speakers as close to the intersection of three wall surfaces as possible. As the speaker is placed in close proximity to walls and floors, or ceilings, the reinforcement offered by these surfaces will increase the apparent amount of bass you hear in the room by as much as 9 dB. To go into much detail about the placement of speakers isn't possible in this post. There are plenty of sites that will give detailed explanations of how to set up your speakers. Here are two:

http://www.soundstage.com/audiohell/audiohell200111.htm

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq/audiophysic.html

My advice on placement is always try several positions for the speakers before you decide they have to go in this one spot. If the position is determined by anything other than the sound you want to hear, I can guarantee you it will not be the best position for the speakers to sound their best. I would suggest in your case, you begin by placing the speakers on the floor in a cornerwith the speaker tilted back to let the tweeter be aimed at your ears or there abouts. Listen to some music with a bass line. Then move the speakers out into the center of the room on a pedestal of some sort to get them off the floor. Listen to the same music and note the difference in the bass response and the openess of the sound. Use that information to decide where the speakers should be placed. There's a lot more to setting up speakers but that should get you going if you read a few articles about how to get the best sound from your system.

Concerning where distortion will occur on the volume dial, I can't answer that. There are too many variables to consider. Take a look back at the cardinal site:

"Distortion
Any undesired change in the wave form of an electrical signal passing through a circuit or transducer. Any distortion can be defined as deviation from the original sound, the discrepancy between what the amplifier should do and what it actually does. All distortion is undesirable. Distortion occurs when the amplifier alters the original sound in the process of amplification so that what comes out of an amplifier is no longer a true replica of what went in. Performers, however, will sometimes desire the application of electronically induced distortion for extra-musical effect in the production of their "sound". The undesirability of inherent distortion is associated with high fidelity and should not be confused with the desirability of distortion as it is expected to be produced through circuitry. When reproducing sound, distortion is unwanted."

The rule remains, when you hear distortion - turn down the volume. Playing music that is distorted to begin with makes it more difficult to decide when it's the music and when it's the amp that is producing distortion. In general if you do not exceed 1 O'Clock ( read that again - do not exceed 1 O'Clock) on the volume control setting you will probably never blow anything up. There's a reason the volume control can be run higher than 1 O'Clock, and a reason you can still blow something up even at that level, but someone else is going to have to explain that to you as I am not interested in going through all the details of log and audio trim pots and input sensitivity, voice coils and gaps, bass power requirements, etc.

The information you want is available and should come as part of your purchase price from the shop. If you are buying the amp from a Big Box store where the salesperson is unlikely to know an impedance load from an expotential horn, you will be doing yourself a disfavor in learning about audio. Worse yet in my opinion, is to save a few dollars and buy from the web. It will likely cost you money in the long run. Buying from these two sources is for someone who is reasonably confident in their own ability to sort through problems that might arise. Buy from a reputable dealer where the salestaff is willing to pass on some actual knowledge about the hobby. Go in on a slow day and spend some time talking about audio. Most audio salespeople are there because they are interested in the hobby and they should enjoy sharing information. Just remember the two rules I gave in the earlier post and you'll manage to find the information you need.

In that vein, the advice I frequently gave the buyer who came into my shop to get a problem (caused by an indiscretion) solved was simply, "A bargain is seldom a good deal. The deal happens not when you walk out the door, but, 6 weeks, 6 months or 6 years down the road. If you are still happy with your purchase and feel you were treated fairly, it doesn't matter if you paid a few dollars more the day you made the purchase. You will have got your money's worth. That's a good deal." Think of how long you've had your first system and whether your pleased with the purcahse. Don't make the same mistake twice. If the shop is willing to offer you some actual assistance and their information is good, they deserve a bit more cash than the clerk who just rings up your sale. If you don't support the good shop now, they won't be there to help when you need them. One of the most satisfying things I did as a salesperson was to put together a good system for not many dollars with the help of the client.

Finally, I can't and don't try to tell anyone what to buy. It's your system and you have to be pleased with it. But, have you ever thought outside the conventional hifi? How about a pair of speakers that start at 98 dB with one watt of power and a then buy an outrageous 10 watt amplifier? I bet that would be a litle different from what your friends own. And you still get to 107 dB.




 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 36
Registered: Jan-05
Cheers vigne, thats a lot to think about but a lot of it is helpful. I will say thought, that Im planning to place one of my speakers on top of my wardrobe which is near the '3 wall' intersection and the other speaker using a wall bracket to the other side of the room again in the corner. However, this will probably be my last question now, but do you know anywhere where I can get wall brackets that are suitable for walls that are hollow-made of plasterboard.
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 205
Registered: Sep-04
Jelvis,

I admit I am a little biased - but to be fair to yourself, do listen to the sound the NAD amps offer before you plump for a Cambridge A5. I found it rather laid back and weak for it's price. I was quite dissapointed, even with good speakers. I have found NADs over 25 years older than this newer model outperform it both dynamically and spatially.

To adjust the bias just a little in the face of my narrow preference, also you could try the Rotel amps in the similar price range? Marantz might also be a good brand to look at.

All said and done though, I haven't found an amp more suited to so many types of music than the NAD range, but I wouldn't reccomend Cambridge if your main interest is Rock. I'd say you can do better, but it's okay on detail.

V
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 206
Registered: Sep-04
Oh and yes, the A5 is rated at 6ohms on the output. This started to narrow down my choice of speakers, as J. will know, as he had to answer a lot of silly questions on impedance for me.

6 ohms seems to be becoming more and more popular, I'm afraid. Personally, I find it limiting, when many of the good budget speakers I've found are rated around 4 ohms. But it would appear you're okay with the Diamonds here.

Just another point about the NAD - there is an impedance selector switch so you canoptimize your setup and get closer to an impedance match, whether your running with 4,8 or 6 ohms. That said, it's a variable issue I can't really do justice to with my scant knowledge.

V
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 208
Registered: Sep-04
Jelvis,

I wouldn't go putting your lovely new speakers on top of the wardrobe - or sticking them in corners - not if you want the best from them.

Speakers should reside at 'ear height'. That is to say, level with your ears as far as is possible when you are in your usual listening position. Just because pubs and discos put speakers in corners, doesn't mean it's the best way to utilize them.

Since 'audiophile' style audio made itself available to a cheaper market, we have the so called 'bookshelf' speakers, in which category your Wharfdales will fall. Don't be decieved though - speakers of this size are really designed to be stand-mounted. A bookshelf is actually THE worst place one could ever place a speaker - especially a good speaker! For a start, if it does contain books, they'll swallow up all the bass you saved your pennies for.

Moving on to your question, it makes sense to use wall brackets in a room which serves as multi-purpose. Spending the money on stands, instead would be possibly the wisest move - but if you go for one bracket, then it's as well to go for two. Speakers are twins. Even more so than people, they are THE SAME unit and are designed to be treated EXACTLY the same as far as possible. Using two brackets placed at 'ear height' would be the next best solution to stands, if you're really that strapped for floor space.

I would not really recomend putting them against a hollow plaster board wall, as there may be some vibration involved which may ruin the sound. At lower volumes, this might be less of a problem though.

If you insist on wall mounts, a bracket's a bracket and they are just different in price and quality - not in how they affix to the wall. It's the fixing which is variable and important here. Forget the little plugs which invariably come supplied and buy some cavity wall fixings, vailable in any hardware dept, such as Homebase, Wicks, etc or your local DIY joint. It's spring-loaded bearing which looks like 'butterfly', mounted on a threaded bolt. Make the hole wide enough to get the 'butterfly' through when it's closed. When it's through, it will spring open again, forming a winged 'nut' through which to tighten the whole affair against. It's really the only dry-wall fixing you can rely on when it comes to hollow walls, although there are other methods - and will be amply strong enough to take the weight of your speakers, as long as the walls are in good (dry) condition.

Remember though, pubs and Restaraunts's, etc need the convenience factor of brackets due to lack of space. If you can find the space, but not the extra cash, personally, I'd rather use two trestle tables or two identical wooden chests which are sturdy and Blu-tac the speakers to them - but they should be as heavy and solid as possible. Remember - if anything moves in your set up, other than the voice coils (which are meant to) you lose some of the speaker's characteristics you have just paid for - end of story. Bass is always tighter, if the speaker setup is rigid. If it isn't, it'll be noticably sloppy.

So - whatever method you choose, if you want the full potential from your speakers, if anything flexes or moves at all, even slightly, it's not good. Count any brackets, standmounts and other paraphenalia as part of the system, because they are.

Best of luck,

V
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/t-amp_e.html



 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 214
Registered: Sep-04
"But, have you ever thought outside the conventional hifi? How about a pair of speakers that start at 98 dB with one watt of power and a then buy an outrageous 10 watt amplifier? I bet that would be a litle different from what your friends own. And you still get to 107 dB."

J, were you refering to the T-Amp there?

I'm hoping someone will buy it and review it here sometime.

What on earth are we to make of this?

V
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 40
Registered: Jan-05
wow i did not know these about sencitivity/wattage thats going to change the way i buy my equipment

So your saying that if i had a a speaker rated at 90DB at 1watt, that at 65 watts rms its going to give me 108DB?

Why do they make it seem like its so hard to get high SPL?
 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 37
Registered: Jan-05
Varney, Vigne, whoever...

The music genre i listen to the most is in fact Rock, (metal a lot also) however Im checking out the rotel amps. One reason I like the A5 is because it seems a good price for what it is but having said that, you've listened to it aswell as others and i havn't! Having you just said the amp ouput is 6 ohms not 8 (i saw 60wpc with 8ohms on a site but its probs wrong) it makes it easier for me, knowing that i could have a possible 120W if i wanted but 70W is more like what ill use at the max. I like to keep things kind of simple!
Ive found NAD amps fairly expensive and if i had the money i would go for it!
Do you know anywhere I can buy Rotel amplifiers...im interested in the prices, thanks

What I was actually concerned about was will plasterboard hollow walls actually withstand the weight of the speakers. These cavity wall fittings uve mentioned-are these large brackets that go through all the way to the breeze blocks?

You say speakers act like twins, well basically...i dont have anywhere AT ALL to place my diamonds when i get them except for one bracketed to a wall and one on top of my wardrobe however I could bracket the one on my wardrobe, just it would seem pointless because thered be a matter of cm between the bottom of my speaker and the top of my wardrobe then!
Thanks

 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 38
Registered: Jan-05
lol! that t-amp is a joke, i doubt it would even work with any decent speakers, except for hearing a fuz of nothing..
 

Bronze Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 70
Registered: Nov-04
jelvis, if you are that worried about the weight, mount the bracket on to a stud rather than the drywall. most good and beefy mouting brackets will come with the 2" or so screws meant for stud mounting.
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 216
Registered: Sep-04
"Lol! that t-amp is a joke, i doubt it would even work with any decent speakers, except for hearing a fuz of nothing.."

That's the immediate impression one gets when you look at the specs. However - read the review.

"wow i did not know these about sencitivity/wattage thats going to change the way i buy my equipment2"

Cory,
So how do you normally buy equipment? Do you listen to it? Or do you read specs?

V

 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 44
Registered: Jan-05
I read the specs and reviews by other people to see how it performed for them and that T amp lol
 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 43
Registered: Jan-05
Whats stud mounting
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 45
Registered: Jan-05
I dont really like listening to the speaker,recievers,etc.. In the stores listening room because they have diffrent acoustics then my living room does. So i buy it and if I don't like it i return it

Varney do you do the same?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 46
Registered: Jan-05
When you drill the srews for the brackets directly into the stud wicth should be a 2by4(wood) witch is spasced out every 12inches by code in Montreal
 

touche6874
Unregistered guest
most newer houses i know of have 2by4 beams of wood evenly spaced to give structure to the walls. the studs are where the dry wall is screwed/nailed into place as well as moldings. if the house is very old or its an apartment im not too sure wuts holding up the dry wall so i would check that just incase. if you go to a local hardware store and ask for a stud finder they should know what you are talking about.
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 217
Registered: Sep-04
No Cory,
I happen on it by chance. If I like it, I like it, if I don't I'll maybe sell it on.

Much of my equipment is vintage, and I've found it to be the most cost effective method of buying Hi-Fi.

Jelvis, you might discover, after hearing a Cambridge A5 (difficult at Richers, I know) that it's an amp which would be more suited to a Jazz afficiando, rather than a metal fiend. As I've said before, I've found my 25 year old NAD 3225PE absolutely runs rings around my brand new A5. I should add, this amp cost a little less than it's age, in pounds. Consider that.... an amp with more kick and dynamic than one of the latest offerings from Cambridge.... and it only cost £20 quid! Okay, so I got lucky as it came from a friend, but the used market may be something to consider if your requirements don't include warranty, nice looks and the box and instructions. To me, the fact it was built to last is really the only warranty I needed plus, audiophiles tend to look after their gear (you hope!).

To buy the equivalent of the 3225PE now, would likely be the NAD 320BEE. Now - when I bought the CA, I looked at the NAD, which cost around £59 more at the time. Since the CA sat in storage for a while, it's overrun it's bring-back warranty. Now I can honestly say, I wish I'd held off and saved the extra 60 quid. Then again, it is said that I apply the same philosophy between the 320BEE and the more powerful C352.... and that is exactly what I shall do.

Behind part of the seemingly twisted logic of the T-Amp, btw, is the principal that large power supplies can offer up electrical fields which can cause distortion to the sound. This battery-powered contraption does seem to address this problem, although I, like many others, will wonder quite how it delivers any kind of dynamic at all, without the hefty torroidial transformers found in our highly powered MOSFET amps.

Remember that it is rated at being only 6 watts on the output. It's not always volume which counts, but the ability to convey musically what's fed into it.

That's really all I can say for now, without reading more on it, but it would be unwise to dismiss it completely out of hand, before more evidence comes available.

V

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

When I made the reference to the T-amp, I was merely placing a thought of something different than the conventional products most people look at and assume that's all there is to choose among. There's too much "me too" stuff on the market.


 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 218
Registered: Sep-04
I agree. It's interesting to see that many people's immediate presumtion is that it's a joke, or merely to laugh at the thought of owning something without a mega-watt label.

I would, however, appreciate your expert opinion on it. Even an educated 'presumption' might suffice to begin with.

V
 

nout
Unregistered guest
I would, however, appreciate your expert opinion on it.

me too

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2117
Registered: Dec-03
"So your saying that if i had a a speaker rated at 90DB at 1watt, that at 65 watts rms its going to give me 108DB?

Why do they make it seem like its so hard to get high SPL?"

If you really want high spl you need to look further into what Jan has posted!

Take a 105 db sensativity speaker!

1 watt = 105
2 watt = 108
4 watt = 111
8 watt = 114
16 watt = 117
32 watt = 120
64 watt = 123
128 watt = 126

See as you go up in sens on your speakers you don't need a high powered
amplifier to get loud music. You "could" get louder music with a 20 watt
amp and sensative speakers verse a 200 watt amp and speakers that aren't sensative!

For every 3 db increase in spl you need to double the power output!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Let me address this comment first, "Why do they make it seem like its so hard to get high SPL?"

I don't know who "they" are, so I can't speak for them. If you are asking why it seems to be dificult to get a speaker that will pin your ears back, the answer would be, "because it is".

If you look at the numbers on this thread you should begin to understand exactly what Kegger and I have stated. Buying watts to get high volume is expensive and difficult. The numbers 65, 100 and 120 watts have been used as if they are quite easy to achieve and mean little more than the 1,000 watt car stereo amp. Watts can be cheap, but, cheap watts are seldom good watts. And bad watts just mean you'll be looking for the next upgrade before the "new" amp is even fully warmed up. I don't have the time or space to get into what makes a good amplifier; after all, that should be the job of the individual and the audio shop to work out. The constant that has not changed from the first speaker made until today is the sensitivity of the speaker is where you get your volume. If you have an amp that can produce 10 watts and a speaker that can manage 85 dB with one watt in, you aren't going to get what most rock listeners would consider loud volume. If, instead, you had the same 10 watt amp and a speaker that managed 95 dB with one watt in, you would have plenty of volume in your room. It would be the same as using the old speakers with a 100 watt amp. If you began with a 100 watt amp, the 95 dB speaker would be the same as buying a 1,000 watt amp. The real thing to consider is what speaker you can buy that would withstand 1,000 watts of power. But, if you are used to car stereo 1,000 watts, that may be a stupid question.

Next, "70W is more like what ill use at the max." I have no idea how you came up with that number. In reality you will probably be using maybe 10-15 watts, the rest is all headroom to keep the amp from clipping. A good hifi salesperson can make this incredibly evident to you if you give them the chance.

I don't mean to suggest you should buy a 10 watt amp and this or that speaker. But there appears to be some learning that hasn't been accomplished yet. Don't make assumptions, but, instead learn what is needed to make intelligent choices and you'll save yourself some money. Everyone has to start learning somewhere along the line. I gather from the questions you have that you are just beginning with this hobby. My suggestion would be to forget 98% of what you've already heard (especially anything that relates to car stereo, it just doesn't work that way in a home system) and start learning from a reputable source that can answer your questions as they come along. Unfortunately, an audio forum on the web isn't the best place to do that type of learning. Too many opinions and not enough fact. If you find and use a good audio shop, and pay for their services, you will be light years ahead in your knowledge and the ability of your system. That's the last I have to say on that subject.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

As to the expert opinion on the T-amp, I'll continue this on the original thread that offered the link.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 49
Registered: Jan-05
Thanks J. Vigne for the post it really set things straight and i was into car audio before i got into home audio lol

Thanks for your time Why arent you a member?
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

The government won't let anyone in the witness protection system belong to an audio forum.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 52
Registered: Jan-05
oh ok that must suck some times, but thanks for giving a reason. would they at least let you have an email?
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 750
Registered: Dec-03
I knew it Vigne! I said it months ago. I'm glad you finally came clean. Do you feel better now?





LOL!
 

shades
Unregistered guest


Vigne has left the building.



 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 753
Registered: Dec-03
LOL!
 

Gotti
Unregistered guest
You only think you're safe Vigne!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 54
Registered: Jan-05
Your stupid Gotti!!!
dumb @ss
 

Gotti Go
Unregistered guest
Cory, Cory, Cory,

Read the last few posts - where is your sense of humor?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 55
Registered: Jan-05
Your sence of humor pushes it to far
 

Gotti Gone
Unregistered guest
Well Cory - I'm really sorry you feel that way. I won't upset you with my too-far-pushing humor any more.

 

Paul D. H.
Unregistered guest
The main problem is under powering speakers, more than over powering speakers. If you turn up the volume above the output of the amp you will flat top or square wave the output to the speaker. This will send high frequencies to the tweeter and will burn out the tweeter.

I don't have time to read all the messages.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 56
Registered: Jan-05
eat sh!t
 

Gotti Backagain
Unregistered guest
Cory - I'm sure everyone thanks you for your recommendation, but there's really no point to eating sh!t, it has already been processed. Do you find you're a bit on the thin side?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 58
Registered: Jan-05
ow thats pritty good ill give you that why arent you a member?
 

Gotti Goneforgood
Unregistered guest
The government won't let anyone in the witness protection system belong to an audio forum.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 60
Registered: Jan-05
thanks
 

Bronze Member
Username: Touche6784

Post Number: 84
Registered: Nov-04
haha...its hard to tell if you are telling the truth or trying to be funny.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 62
Registered: Jan-05
I believe that the goal was to be funny
 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 44
Registered: Jan-05
Well it seems that this posting I originally made was helping people up to about post no.35 and I found out what I wanted but you lot of strange people like to argue like babies...so u enjoy doing that!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cory

Canada

Post Number: 67
Registered: Jan-05
sorry about that jelvis
 

Bronze Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 47
Registered: Jan-05
lol dont worry about it, i get the impression that this post will no longer be helpful to people except for relooking back to what some people have said
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 242
Registered: Sep-04
Well, it looks like the Gotti fellow was less interested in audio, than in generally annoying people with meaningless posts. I doubt we will see much more of it.

V
 

Silver Member
Username: Varney

BirminghamEngland, UK

Post Number: 243
Registered: Sep-04
And if it's true, I doubt J will want to expand on details just for the sake of our curiosity. If it were a joke, then I'm sure he'd let us know sooner or later. Best to let it lie and move on, IMO.

V
 

nout
Unregistered guest
It's a joke
 

AVID
Unregistered guest
Hi all,
From an audio view point, Im not much of a technical guy... the only thing im into is great music quality.
Im evaluating an amplifier. Hv looked at Denon (AVR 1604) and Onkyo mainly due to pricing constraints.

The speakers system that i am going for are a brand called "Pro FX" and include two towers, one central (front), two rear (bipolar) all at 100W / 8O ohms. The Subwoofer is rated @ 150W.

Question1: Is there a better amplifier that you would recommend?

Question2: Which souce would you recommend? (my needs are basically audio, but good video / surround would be a bonus)
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